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Lynch mob
Discussion started by Sarriesvet , 07 November, 2019 21:42
Lynch mob
Sarriesvet 07 November, 2019 21:42
In today's world of social media, this is exactly what we currently have - a lynch mob, baying for blood. I urge everyone to read today's article in the Guardian which bravely attacks the widespread hypocrisy amongst premiership clubs and aims to portray a more balanced picture.

Like everybody else, I don't yet know the full details, and it's likely that none of us will for some time to come. It is perfectly possible that, when they do emerge, Saracens' guilt will be confirmed. But until then, I'm reserving judgement and I urge others to do the same because I suspect that there will be a number of twists and turns in the coming weeks. There are still too many grey areas for anyone to be absolutely certain - and any condemned man has a basic right to certainty before facing the noose!

Such is the force of social media echo chambers nowadays that I have no doubt that this post will be met by widespread loathing and contempt - which will rather prove the point.

Re: Lynch mob
mr magoo 07 November, 2019 21:49
Very true - I feel exactly the same. Wild West springs to mind!!

Re: Lynch mob
Quinten Poulsen 07 November, 2019 21:54
One of the latest twists or turns I've read about is the speculation that Wray will end up fighting to have the legality of the salary cap challenged. That wouldn't surprise me, although it's not clear what the end game is for him. Clearly it is not about being involved in PRL and having a competitive and fair league in place.

Re: Lynch mob
Sarriesvet 07 November, 2019 22:05
In fairness, he's been beating that particular drum for nearly two decades.

Re: Lynch mob
MarchingIn 07 November, 2019 22:29
For balance Sarriesvet, many Saracens supporters are not exactly covering themselves in glory on social media by insulting other clubs and claiming it is all down to jealousy that anybody has an issue with "co-investment".

Very much six of one & half dozen of the other.

Re: Lynch mob
Florida 07 November, 2019 22:45
Crikey, a few supporters of other clubs hop on a message board frequented by Saracens supporters, give them a bit of grief in light of the recent news and it's a lynch mob.

Perhaps you would do well to quietly suck it up and if your appeal is successful then politely explain you told us so and if it's not successful then take it on the chin and ll move on.

Re: Lynch mob
cwrich 07 November, 2019 22:58
For balance Marchingin winking smiley there are also many of us who have been expressing our disquiet and our feelings that the right course of action would be to take our medicine and try to move on

Re: Lynch mob
cwrich 07 November, 2019 22:59
For balance Marchingin winking smiley there are also many of us who have been expressing our disquiet and our feelings that the right course of action would be to take our medicine and try to move on

Re: Lynch mob
Sarriesvet 07 November, 2019 23:06
In referring to a lynch mob mentality, I also had in mind some of the media

Re: Lynch mob
JL904 08 November, 2019 00:09
Quote:
Sarriesvet
In referring to a lynch mob mentality, I also had in mind some of the media

I must admit to feeling like I've climbed out of a septic tank for reading it - but Englands's defeat to the Springboks is almost entirely down to four specific players - and their post-match demeanour is down to them missing out on a £80K winning bonus.

You can play " England Sport Bingo" with it.
Entitled - tick
Arrogant - tick
Petulant - tick
Greedy - tick
Disrespectful - tick
Complacent - tick

and on it goes.

Yes, it's an opinion piece - but in 50-odd years I've never seen quite such a vicious hatchet job in any paper.

Owen gets an extra dollop. The writer doesn't understand why he's held in such high regard, and thinks he talks in the team huddle in the way he talks to winkers like him at the press conference.

Hold your nose as you read - it stinks.



Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please - Niccolo Machiavelli

Re: Lynch mob
Marlow Nick 08 November, 2019 01:29
Quote:
SarriesVet
In today's world of social media, this is exactly what we currently have - a lynch mob, baying for blood.

A lynch mob is a group who act as judge jury and executioner without following due legal process. This ain't no lynch mob. Due process has been followed and Saracens gave been found guilty. This baying mob is the crowds come to witness the execution and make sure the condemned prisoner doesn't escape their punishment

Quote:
SarriesVet
Like everybody else, I don't yet know the full details, and it's likely that none of us will for some time to come. It is perfectly possible that, when they do emerge, Saracens' guilt will be confirmed. But until then, I'm reserving judgement and I urge others to do the same because I suspect that there will be a number of twists and turns in the coming weeks. There are still too many grey areas for anyone to be absolutely certain - and any condemned man has a basic right to certainty before facing the noose!

A panel if highly qualified lawyers has reviewed the evidence and found Saracens guilty. Guilt has already been confirmed and while you may find it interesting to read full details (which are unlikely to ever be published) that won't actually change the verdict. The world is not waiting for your judgement. The judges have already declared the verdict. I realise you are grieving but advise you to get beyond the denial stage as quickly as possible.

Good luck with your grieving. Once you get through the stages I hope you can see its for the best to cut out the cancer that is Nigel Wray and get back to enjoying rugby as a fair competition.

Re: Lynch mob
Rinkadink 08 November, 2019 03:54
We had to wait for the media to say something, which they eventually did. We then had to wait for the official investigation to take place, which happened. We waited again for an independent body to investigate and confirm, which we waited for again. Now you're telling us to wait on not even an appeal but a minor review because it could still be all wrong? Yeah, no.

It's out there, it's been proven. This isn't a lynch mob. The punishment is not coming from the people but official bodies, and they've been quite lenient given the amount of time this has gone on combined with damage done to other clubs and the sport.

I have plenty of sympathy for the fans who haven't argued, apologised and are quietly taking their medicine and trying to move on. As someone said above, it's probably better for others to move on past the denial stage as quickly as possible.

Re: Lynch mob
TimothyQ 08 November, 2019 07:26
Regarding your plea to Ďwait for more informationí I think you will find that little to none is forthcoming.

I would like to have more information about the hearing, however, the full verdict is not being published. That is the right of Saracens and PR, I believe it is written into their regulations, and it is probably reasonable as the private financial arrangements of players is concerned. Unless Saracens decide to publish the judgement themselves (assuming that they are permitted to do so, maybe after the review) it is unlikely that we will see much in the way of detail, but I wouldnít hold my breath.

The next step is a review, not an appeal. As I understand it (from the article you mentioned), the grounds are likely to be that the RFU wasnít properly involved and there was, therefore, some procedural unfairness...if this was upheld then I donít think it would pacify too many of saracens critics.

If that fails, they could sue PR on the basis that the salary cap is a restraint of trade. The high court would not be asked to rule on if the ruling was correct, but rather if the rules are legal. Again, if Saracens succeeded in getting the salary cap overturned (which isnít in their interests, Wray is not the biggest fish in this pond), it would not pacify Saracens critics.

It could be that I am participating in an online lynch mob, but the message from Saracens (weíre looking after player welfare, weíre a family, weíre better than other clubs) isnít especially contrite and is unlikely to calm anyone down.

Re: Lynch mob
myleftboot 08 November, 2019 07:40
It's funny, innit? When 'there were no breaches,' the other side wanted full disclosure, with the shoe is on the other foot, 'tis us. They set a precedent last time round, and as I told the naysayers then, perhaps we are going to have to suck it up. A protracted round of higher and higher legal challenges will help nobody, so whatever the end result of the appeal, that's where it should end, hopefully with a full disclosure of the judgements, but I honestly don't expect it. As for the baying mob? If we are guilty as charged, they propably, within reason, are entitled to give Saracens some stick.

Re: Lynch mob
Adey 08 November, 2019 08:12
How many times? Itís not an appeal. Itís a review.

Weíve been found guilty. Whatever Nigel Wray tries now will continue to damage the reputation of the sport and the club further.

Thereís too much denial. People waiting on a process which has happened. Just because Nigel Wray says what heís done is right, doesnít make it so. The rules are the rules.

Iíd rather go back to watching us as a park team in London than sitting in a soulless stadium with everyone thinking weíre continuing to cheat the competition.

Start again. If having amazing academy/ training facilities and treating people well really works, letís see where we can get us from scratch. Without cheating the rest of the completion.

Iíd still be there supporting the side. Knowing we were Ďcleaní.

Now, Iím not so sure.

Re: Lynch mob
RodneyRegis 08 November, 2019 09:04
That guardian article is littered with disengenuosity and downright lies.

Re: Lynch mob
Neil-H 08 November, 2019 09:11
Quote:
Man From Wick
In the Mail:
I think when Healy (or whoever) do the on-pitch walkabout and talk to the the players, they should go and stick the microphone under the Saracens players noses anyway, it would be funny to see them running away. Saracens are now a farce.

If Healy or whomever does the on field interviews, then they should respect the players and ask them about the game and plan.... leave this debacle out of it, its not down to the players to answer those questions, they there to play a game, let them do that.

Re: Lynch mob
wombles222 08 November, 2019 09:16
Quote:
Neil-H
Quote:
Man From Wick
In the Mail:
I think when Healy (or whoever) do the on-pitch walkabout and talk to the the players, they should go and stick the microphone under the Saracens players noses anyway, it would be funny to see them running away. Saracens are now a farce.

If Healy or whomever does the on field interviews, then they should respect the players and ask them about the game and plan.... leave this debacle out of it, its not down to the players to answer those questions, they there to play a game, let them do that.

As a Waspie I agree! Your lads are going to have massive problems enough maintaining focus given whats happened already, the day is going to be hard enough, let the team prepare for the game only! The questions are for Sarries management and owners to answer....avoiding the media and no show as they have done for the champions cup has only made things worse, to do the same again Saturday just builds on the problems. Just a shame they are now in hiding, a cowardly stance given that the playing squad are still going to go out there!

Re: Lynch mob
Ricardo121 08 November, 2019 10:10
+1 for Sarriesvet.

Re: Lynch mob
wolfgangvonb77 08 November, 2019 10:20
This could go to the high court and I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Looking after player well fair is one thing and cheating is another. Why isn't anyone talking about the success businesses that have been set up like Wolfpack lager and Brad Baritts Tiki Tonga coffee brand. But everyone loves scandal and it seems a certain newspaper and when there is another view from the Guardian it's called lies lol. There isn't any subjective reading anymore just we are cheats.

Re: Lynch mob
ukms 08 November, 2019 10:25
Quote:
wolfgangvonb77
This could go to the high court and I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Looking after player well fair is one thing and cheating is another. Why isn't anyone talking about the success businesses that have been set up like Wolfpack lager and Brad Baritts Tiki Tonga coffee brand. But everyone loves scandal and it seems a certain newspaper and when there is another view from the Guardian it's called lies lol. There isn't any subjective reading anymore just we are cheats.

Doesnít really matter whats in the Guardian or any other paper post investigation ..... what matters is the finding of the panel not the opinion of a Journo ! .... so many still in denial !

Re: Lynch mob
Chops3 08 November, 2019 10:59
Introducing terms like Lynch mob is not helpful to anyone. For what it's worth, as a Saracens supporter, this is how I hope things will play out;

1) There is a process that has been agreed by all the clubs, which is still in progress. The process includes the right for Saracens to ask for a review, so it is not unreasonable to allow the completion of the process.
2) If the review comes up with the same conclusion then Saracens should
- stop there, take the punishment and move on - No further legal challenges (even if the management still do not agree with the findings).
- voluntarily request that our last two premiership titles are struck from the record (Up to the RFU if they award to Exeter or just have no champions for those two years) and make a formal apology. This will be the start of restoring reputation.
- do whatever we need to do to fully comply
3) If the review concludes that there has been an error in the original conclusion, I would hope everyone would accept the outcome of the review, even if it concludes that Saracens are not guilty, or that we are guilty but the sanction needs to be adjusted.

Finally, I would like a full review of the role of the salary cap manager and the salary cap annual review mechanism. How has this been allowed to go on for three years without being picked up in the annual review?

Re: Lynch mob
ukms 08 November, 2019 11:04
Quote:
Chops3
Introducing terms like Lynch mob is not helpful to anyone. For what it's worth, as a Saracens supporter, this is how I hope things will play out;
1) There is a process that has been agreed by all the clubs, which is still in progress. The process includes the right for Saracens to ask for a review, so it is not unreasonable to allow the completion of the process.
2) If the review comes up with the same conclusion then Saracens should
- stop there, take the punishment and move on - No further legal challenges (even if the management still do not agree with the findings).
- voluntarily request that our last two premiership titles are struck from the record (Up to the RFU if they award to Exeter or just have no champions for those two years) and make a formal apology. This will be the start of restoring reputation.
- do whatever we need to do to fully comply
3) If the review concludes that there has been an error in the original conclusion, I would hope everyone would accept the outcome of the review, even if it concludes that Saracens are not guilty, or that we are guilty but the sanction needs to be adjusted.

Finally, I would like a full review of the role of the salary cap manager and the salary cap annual review mechanism. How has this been allowed to go on for three years without being picked up in the annual review?

You ask how itís been allowed to go on for 3 years ..... my educated guess would be that some relevant information was not declared !

Re: Lynch mob
stevene 08 November, 2019 11:16
Quote:
Sarriesvet
In today's world of social media, this is exactly what we currently have - a lynch mob, baying for blood. I urge everyone to read today's article in the Guardian which bravely attacks the widespread hypocrisy amongst premiership clubs and aims to portray a more balanced picture.
Like everybody else, I don't yet know the full details, and it's likely that none of us will for some time to come. It is perfectly possible that, when they do emerge, Saracens' guilt will be confirmed. But until then, I'm reserving judgement and I urge others to do the same because I suspect that there will be a number of twists and turns in the coming weeks. There are still too many grey areas for anyone to be absolutely certain - and any condemned man has a basic right to certainty before facing the noose!

Such is the force of social media echo chambers nowadays that I have no doubt that this post will be met by widespread loathing and contempt - which will rather prove the point.
Sorry but at the present time the club have been found guilty but you are appealing to have that overturned.

You don't get found guilty of theft, robbery, GBH etc and then launch an appeal then the guilty verdict isnt removed until that appeal is heard. The punishment has been suspended until the appeal is heard not the guilty verdict. Thats how we currently stand.

Even though I disagree with the views of some sarries supporters empathy tells me I would do exactly the same if I were in your shoes. This must be horrible for any sarries fan and you have my sympathy regardless of whether you are actively defending your club or not. However equally you have to understand the anger of those who view this as financial doping and their clubs havent been competing on a level playing field. Therefore, as a sarries fan if you are defending the clubs position, then its reasonable to expect heated debate with others who and are angry about what the club have been found guilty of. I will make no bones as where I sit at the moment that Saracens have cheated and all I have heard are smokescreen excuses (co investments, player welfare, I need to read the full judgment) to supplement the current and potential future earnings of the clubs players outside of the salary cap. When you boil it down thats where we are.

Perhaps there will be some humble pie for those to eat in the future (and I maybe one) but at this present time the anger pointed towards Saracens (the club not the fans) is (for me) understandable. Where that strays over the line of decency is a problem which is exacerbated by social media unfortunately and needs to be condemned and dealt with in the strongest manner possible.

So I do suspect the team/ club to get a rough ride at away games for the forseeable future. I hope fans are treated with sympathy and a lot of empathy. Thats life and is a consequence of where we stand on the panels verdict of the clubs actions. However if Sarries fans want to defend the club (as is your right) then expect strong views/debate back in your direction (both at grounds and online). If your club are called cheats then your club is being called a cheat not you. Thats where we stand at the moment. Its not nice but unfortunately thats where we stand.

Ultimately we all have choices to make and I hope no other fans show anything other than empathy and sympathy for you providing that equally you show empathy and sympathy for the anger which has (and will likely be) directed back at the club (NB club not fans).

Hopefully we can all move on from this at some point. What we do need is a level playing field with all clubs and chairman committed to the success of club rugby in England and development of international talent without looking for loopholes and ways around league rules. If you don't like the leagues rules then find a consensus amongst other clubs and change it. Thats how PRL is supposed to work. Therefore if your owner/ club doesnt like salary cap rules work to change them not work round them.

Re: Lynch mob
home rule for sussex 08 November, 2019 11:59
Well it is the Guardian

Re: Lynch mob
John Tee 08 November, 2019 12:45
I dont see an easy way back from this......
i think Saracens have to clear the decks to even start to move on..
Owner standing aside is a start and im sure in time that will have to happen.
What is happening now is developing a game plan with as much damage limitation as possible. Once that is determined, ppl will leave and a rebrand start.
The cheat stigma will have to be navigated.
Not everything can stay as is.. far from it, when you have current players and clubs openly commenting with various degrees of disgust, distain and contempt.
Thats not even adding in fans......

Re: Lynch mob
daz_71 08 November, 2019 16:08
+1 - This seems a logical and sensible approach. As much as we love our club it seems pointless coming on this board or on social media to defend what we have been found guilty of. Those that are are purely fanning the flames and make us all look like myopic deniers!

I've said to a few people over the years that Saracens in a way were more enjoyable to watch when we were an average club side. It looks like we may have the opportunity to go back those days if we are allowed to by others.

Quote:
Chops3
Introducing terms like Lynch mob is not helpful to anyone. For what it's worth, as a Saracens supporter, this is how I hope things will play out;
1) There is a process that has been agreed by all the clubs, which is still in progress. The process includes the right for Saracens to ask for a review, so it is not unreasonable to allow the completion of the process.
2) If the review comes up with the same conclusion then Saracens should
- stop there, take the punishment and move on - No further legal challenges (even if the management still do not agree with the findings).
- voluntarily request that our last two premiership titles are struck from the record (Up to the RFU if they award to Exeter or just have no champions for those two years) and make a formal apology. This will be the start of restoring reputation.
- do whatever we need to do to fully comply
3) If the review concludes that there has been an error in the original conclusion, I would hope everyone would accept the outcome of the review, even if it concludes that Saracens are not guilty, or that we are guilty but the sanction needs to be adjusted.

Finally, I would like a full review of the role of the salary cap manager and the salary cap annual review mechanism. How has this been allowed to go on for three years without being picked up in the annual review?

Re: Lynch mob
TonyTaff 08 November, 2019 17:33
Quote:
JL904
Quote:
Sarriesvet
In referring to a lynch mob mentality, I also had in mind some of the media

I must admit to feeling like I've climbed out of a septic tank for reading it - but Englands's defeat to the Springboks is almost entirely down to four specific players - and their post-match demeanour is down to them missing out on a £80K winning bonus.

You can play " England Sport Bingo" with it.
Entitled - tick
Arrogant - tick
Petulant - tick
Greedy - tick
Disrespectful - tick
Complacent - tick

and on it goes.

Yes, it's an opinion piece - but in 50-odd years I've never seen quite such a vicious hatchet job in any paper.

Owen gets an extra dollop. The writer doesn't understand why he's held in such high regard, and thinks he talks in the team huddle in the way he talks to winkers like him at the press conference.

Hold your nose as you read - it stinks.

Strewth, faced with the prospect of phoning one of my banks to renogiate our mortgage, I thought "what could be worse?", so I clicked through to a Mail Online article. I wish I hadn't, and I am not English!

Mortgage negotiations going fine BTW. Nigel's lawyers not yet needed! winking smiley



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Lynch mob
wolfgangvonb77 08 November, 2019 18:34
Hahahaha brilliant Tony

Re: Lynch mob
Tribester 08 November, 2019 20:58
Quote:
Chops3
Introducing terms like Lynch mob is not helpful to anyone. For what it's worth, as a Saracens supporter, this is how I hope things will play out;
1) There is a process that has been agreed by all the clubs, which is still in progress. The process includes the right for Saracens to ask for a review, so it is not unreasonable to allow the completion of the process.
2) If the review comes up with the same conclusion then Saracens should
- stop there, take the punishment and move on - No further legal challenges (even if the management still do not agree with the findings).
- voluntarily request that our last two premiership titles are struck from the record (Up to the RFU if they award to Exeter or just have no champions for those two years) and make a formal apology. This will be the start of restoring reputation.
- do whatever we need to do to fully comply
3) If the review concludes that there has been an error in the original conclusion, I would hope everyone would accept the outcome of the review, even if it concludes that Saracens are not guilty, or that we are guilty but the sanction needs to be adjusted.

Finally, I would like a full review of the role of the salary cap manager and the salary cap annual review mechanism. How has this been allowed to go on for three years without being picked up in the annual review?

Good ideas, but one glaring omission

4) Full disclosure of the complete investigation to Duncan96 !

There, fine now.

Re: Lynch mob
myleftboot 09 November, 2019 02:30
Quote:
Adey
How many times? Itís not an appeal. Itís a review.
.
cheers for that, you f... ING pedant. That is literally my biggest concern. There is a review BECAUSE Saracens APPEALED. But go you, you really put me in my place.

Re: Lynch mob
HonkyTonk 09 November, 2019 07:39
As far as I am aware, Sarries have not actually requested a review as yet, so they should still currently be on -26.

Re: Lynch mob
GerryK 09 November, 2019 17:51
Perhaps we shouldn't be so accepting of the deliberations emanating from the powers that be.
Would those many trolls be more forgiving if they realised that the joint investment actions by Nigel have been done in the spirit of supporting the players for their future in a pretty short term career. In essence there is little difference between thi investment action and supporting our players through their degrees. In other words, again investing in the future of our players

Re: Lynch mob
nicsue 09 November, 2019 18:00
Quote:
Shouting Prarie Dog
If these co-investments are purely for "player welfare" I assume that the most caring Mr Wray affords all Saracens players of this generous benefit? Or.........

Who knows how many were offered and how many declined? Certainly not me.

Re: Lynch mob
Banzai1314 09 November, 2019 18:30
To be fair it was more like a Bett Lynch mob

Re: Lynch mob
ukms 09 November, 2019 19:59
Quote:
GerryK
Perhaps we shouldn't be so accepting of the deliberations emanating from the powers that be.
Would those many trolls be more forgiving if they realised that the joint investment actions by Nigel have been done in the spirit of supporting the players for their future in a pretty short term career. In essence there is little difference between thi investment action and supporting our players through their degrees. In other words, again investing in the future of our players

If he was supporting every player I could begin to swallow the ďplayer welfareí excuse, but heís not .... heís been doing this with your top earners ..... if anything the faithful club players need support in a short career rather than those Who earn a tidy sum from International appearances and sponsorship!

Re: Lynch mob
Rupes 09 November, 2019 20:48
GerryK (and others) - for me, the player welfare issue is a red herring here. I don't think anyone would disagree that player welfare is hugely important and that clubs should do what they can to ensure that welfare both now and in future years. However, it has to be done within the rules as they are currently written and to which all clubs have signed up (for right or wrong).

Re: Lynch mob
AP 10 November, 2019 10:07
Quote:
Shouting Prarie Dog
If these co-investments are purely for "player welfare" I assume that the most caring Mr Wray affords all Saracens players of this generous benefit? Or.........

OK, I'll bite:

So far as I know, the investments have been:

Wolfpack Lager: Chris Wyles and Alistair Hargreaves, both now retired, not exactly the highest paid or star players
Tikitonga Coffee: Brad Barritt - towards the end of hiscareer (if he stays inonepiece, clearly injured currently). Again, not exactly the highest paid or highest profile player

Wiggy9: Richard Wigglesworth, in last season, developing a coaching career with Oxford University, Canada and other clubs

Faz Investments, VunProps, Maro Itoje: Obviously different category of player but young men with a large amount of money suddenly in their hands and a short career ahead of them.

You might find this article interesting: [www.telegraph.co.uk]
Clearly Olly Kohn had some support from Quins with the Jolly Hog! Good luck to him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2019 14:47 by AP.

Re: Lynch mob
sarricen 10 November, 2019 12:09
Ever since the salary cap news came out I was angry, angry that we were so stupid to cheat the salary cap and that weĎre not accepting our punishment. Especially as itís in reality about a 6-8% breach of the salary cap (£600k of approx £9-10m of total salary cap all in). We probably wouldíve won a decent amount of trophies without the breach

But Iíve been angry as well over something I couldnít really put my finger on until today. The way clubs are compensated for England players is a complete and utter joke. weíve been lucky to have a golden generation coming through, being Farrell, Kruis, Itoje, George and the acquired at a young age Vunipolas. I donít think our academy is any better than other clubs, weíve just been lucky. Leicester has it in the 2000ís, another club will have it soon. Put simply, we have developed six world class England players, none of whom were close to that category when first starting at sarries

Having world class England players is doubly difficult because they demand a very high salary and are not able to play for half the season. So not only do they have a high salary but you then have to spend more on replacement players during the internationals and for the rest weekends. Letís be honest, all England players are a luxury in the premiership. They are there for the big European games and the playoffs and if youíre lucky about seven or eight premiership games a year.

So then the salary cap comes in. I have little doubt that if you multiplied England players salaries by the proportion of premiership games they are allowed to play a year and applied that total to the salary cap, rather than the full salary of those players, sarries would have one of the lowest effective salary bills in the league. Thatís not including other internationals we have who are missing half the year.

Yes, I know this is our problem for having so many internationals but it leaves a very sour taste when clubs start complaining about how unfair it is that we won our trophies and breached the salary cap. Yes itís unfair, but the league is unfair and has been for years. We spend half the year fighting with one of the weaker squads in the premiership. We have someone like George Kruis or Jamie George who probably hits just shy of £400k and yet barely plays a third of the premiership season. What a waste of money that is under the current system. Compare that to Skelton who is probably on a little bit less but is worth twice the amount of money due to being available all year round. And how are clubs compensated for this? With peanuts.

No wonder clubs like Gloucester, Sale, Bristol, and LI (and now Wasps) are stacking their squads full of non English players. Hell, if I were Nigel Wray and had to start again Iíd do exactly the same right now. Those five clubs contributed a pittance to the England World Cup squad but hey, theyíre the heroes in this current soap opera

So please, to all those opposition fans (who no doubt will attack me mercilessly), cry me a river with your howls of it being unfair. The league has been unfair for a long long time. Itís ridiculous how on one hand people bemoan the lack of English players in some teams but then donít care how pitiful the compensation is for those who have the England players, and how stacked the decks are against those clubs (unless you do a sarries and cheat).

For people moaning about the credibility of the league since the sarries thing, the league has not been credible for a long time, sarries or not. playing almost half the season without the best players being able to play kills the credibility of the league far more than the salary cap indiscretions. Maybe all the opposition fans moaning will be satisfied once all clubs are Gloucester and Sale clones. Talking of which, we havenít played Gloucester away outside of an international window for about five years now. Imagine if that happened in the premier League

Yes we cheated, but donít even pretend it has damaged the credibility of the league. It had none anyway. If you want to asterisk trophy wins, why not asterisk every one in the 2000ís when it was widely acknowledged most clubs were breaking the salary cap and a 2010 hushed up investigation confirmed that. Iíll still watch games because I love watching rugby, but I donít care about any of the off pitch@#$%&or even the storylines throughout the season. Professionalism is killing the rugby I fell in love with. Iím disillusioned by it all. Disillusioned by Sarries stupidity, disillusioned by PRL, disillusioned by the RFU.

I guess this is my burning bridges, Iím off post. Apologies for it being so rambling, Iíve completely fallen out of love with the game I thought I loved and it feels like thereís a hole in my life I donít know what to replace with now. This last week has killed it. Sarries have f****d it up and I canít see it being repaired, especially as weíre refusing to accept it. The league is messed up and nobody cares so long as the salary cap is adhered to so everyone can pat each other on the back

All the best to clubs like Quins, Northampton, Bath and Exeter for both promoting English talent and having class England players while sticking to the salary cap. I hope your model wins through over the LI/Glaws/Bris/Sale/wasps strategy.

Re: Lynch mob
Marlow Nick 10 November, 2019 12:14
Quote:
GerryK
Perhaps we shouldn't be so accepting of the deliberations emanating from the powers that be.
Would those many trolls be more forgiving if they realised that the joint investment actions by Nigel have been done in the spirit of supporting the players for their future in a pretty short term career. In essence there is little difference between thi investment action and supporting our players through their degrees. In other words, again investing in the future of our players

GerryK, let's put the small print of the rules to one side for a moment and look at clause 2.2

2.2 Objectives of the Regulations
The Regulations were introduced, and are maintained, by PRL to achieve the following objectives in an appropriate and proportionate manner:
(a) ensuring the financial viability of all Clubs and of the Gallagher Premiership competition;
(b) controlling inflationary pressures on Clubs' costs;
(c) providing a level playing field for Clubs;
(d) ensuring a competitive Gallagher Premiership competition; and
(e) enabling Clubs to compete in European Competitions

The cap was raised by £1m about 4 years ago when some clubs complained they couldn't achieve the objectives of 2.2e. As a result of this £1m increase some clubs could no longer afford to spend the full cap amount but a compromise was agreed to balance all the causes a-e and all the clubs signed up to the new limits.

Will you acknowledge that the intent of a-d is to prevent rich owners from buying an unfair advantage?
Nigel's investments in academy, culture, training etc are all commendable and approved within the cap. Will you at least acknowledge that providing additional support to just your top players is an area where one has to tread carefully in order not to breach 2.2 a-d?

It appears that the panel have decided that Nigel did not tread carefully enough.

Re: Lynch mob
ukms 10 November, 2019 12:47
Quote:
sarricen
Ever since the salary cap news came out I was angry, angry that we were so stupid to cheat the salary cap and that weĎre not accepting our punishment. Especially as itís in reality about a 6-8% breach of the salary cap (£600k of approx £9-10m of total salary cap all in). We probably wouldíve won a decent amount of trophies without the breach
But Iíve been angry as well over something I couldnít really put my finger on until today. The way clubs are compensated for England players is a complete and utter joke. weíve been lucky to have a golden generation coming through, being Farrell, Kruis, Itoje, George and the acquired at a young age Vunipolas. I donít think our academy is any better than other clubs, weíve just been lucky. Leicester has it in the 2000ís, another club will have it soon. Put simply, we have developed six world class England players, none of whom were close to that category when first starting at sarries

Having world class England players is doubly difficult because they demand a very high salary and are not able to play for half the season. So not only do they have a high salary but you then have to spend more on replacement players during the internationals and for the rest weekends. Letís be honest, all England players are a luxury in the premiership. They are there for the big European games and the playoffs and if youíre lucky about seven or eight premiership games a year.

So then the salary cap comes in. I have little doubt that if you multiplied England players salaries by the proportion of premiership games they are allowed to play a year and applied that total to the salary cap, rather than the full salary of those players, sarries would have one of the lowest effective salary bills in the league. Thatís not including other internationals we have who are missing half the year.

Yes, I know this is our problem for having so many internationals but it leaves a very sour taste when clubs start complaining about how unfair it is that we won our trophies and breached the salary cap. Yes itís unfair, but the league is unfair and has been for years. We spend half the year fighting with one of the weaker squads in the premiership. We have someone like George Kruis or Jamie George who probably hits just shy of £400k and yet barely plays a third of the premiership season. What a waste of money that is under the current system. Compare that to Skelton who is probably on a little bit less but is worth twice the amount of money due to being available all year round. And how are clubs compensated for this? With peanuts.

No wonder clubs like Gloucester, Sale, Bristol, and LI (and now Wasps) are stacking their squads full of non English players. Hell, if I were Nigel Wray and had to start again Iíd do exactly the same right now. Those five clubs contributed a pittance to the England World Cup squad but hey, theyíre the heroes in this current soap opera

So please, to all those opposition fans (who no doubt will attack me mercilessly), cry me a river with your howls of it being unfair. The league has been unfair for a long long time. Itís ridiculous how on one hand people bemoan the lack of English players in some teams but then donít care how pitiful the compensation is for those who have the England players, and how stacked the decks are against those clubs (unless you do a sarries and cheat).

For people moaning about the credibility of the league since the sarries thing, the league has not been credible for a long time, sarries or not. playing almost half the season without the best players being able to play kills the credibility of the league far more than the salary cap indiscretions. Maybe all the opposition fans moaning will be satisfied once all clubs are Gloucester and Sale clones. Talking of which, we havenít played Gloucester away outside of an international window for about five years now. Imagine if that happened in the premier League

Yes we cheated, but donít even pretend it has damaged the credibility of the league. It had none anyway. If you want to asterisk trophy wins, why not asterisk every one in the 2000ís when it was widely acknowledged most clubs were breaking the salary cap and a 2010 hushed up investigation confirmed that. Iíll still watch games because I love watching rugby, but I donít care about any of the off pitch@#$%&or even the storylines throughout the season. Professionalism is killing the rugby I fell in love with. Iím disillusioned by it all. Disillusioned by Sarries stupidity, disillusioned by PRL, disillusioned by the RFU.

I guess this is my burning bridges, Iím off post. Apologies for it being so rambling, Iíve completely fallen out of love with the game I thought I loved and it feels like thereís a hole in my life I donít know what to replace with now. This last week has killed it. Sarries have f****d it up and I canít see it being repaired, especially as weíre refusing to accept it. The league is messed up and nobody cares so long as the salary cap is adhered to so everyone can pat each other on the back

All the best to clubs like Quins, Northampton, Bath and Exeter for both promoting English talent and having class England players while sticking to the salary cap. I hope your model wins through over the LI/Glaws/Bris/Sale/wasps strategy.

If having England (Or other international ) players are the root of the problem and so unfair ..... why sign more ? Daly as an example, why not spend less money on a quality Club player unlikely to get called up ? .... Iím sorry but the England player thing doesnít wash.

Re: Lynch mob
Exiled Falcon 10 November, 2019 12:52
Quote:
sarricen

So then the salary cap comes in. I have little doubt that if you multiplied England players salaries by the proportion of premiership games they are allowed to play a year and applied that total to the salary cap, rather than the full salary of those players, sarries would have one of the lowest effective salary bills in the league. Thatís not including other internationals we have who are missing half the year.

Yes, I know this is our problem for having so many internationals but it leaves a very sour taste when clubs start complaining about how unfair it is that we won our trophies and breached the salary cap. Yes itís unfair, but the league is unfair and has been for years. We spend half the year fighting with one of the weaker squads in the premiership. We have someone like George Kruis or Jamie George who probably hits just shy of £400k and yet barely plays a third of the premiership season. What a waste of money that is under the current system. Compare that to Skelton who is probably on a little bit less but is worth twice the amount of money due to being available all year round. And how are clubs compensated for this? With peanuts.

No wonder clubs like Gloucester, Sale, Bristol, and LI (and now Wasps) are stacking their squads full of non English players. Hell, if I were Nigel Wray and had to start again Iíd do exactly the same right now. Those five clubs contributed a pittance to the England World Cup squad but hey, theyíre the heroes in this current soap opera

So please, to all those opposition fans (who no doubt will attack me mercilessly), cry me a river with your howls of it being unfair. The league has been unfair for a long long time. Itís ridiculous how on one hand people bemoan the lack of English players in some teams but then donít care how pitiful the compensation is for those who have the England players, and how stacked the decks are against those clubs (unless you do a sarries and cheat).

Yes we cheated, but donít even pretend it has damaged the credibility of the league. It had none anyway. If you want to asterisk trophy wins, why not asterisk every one in the 2000ís when it was widely acknowledged most clubs were breaking the salary cap and a 2010 hushed up investigation confirmed that. Iíll still watch games because I love watching rugby, but I donít care about any of the off pitch@#$%&or even the storylines throughout the season. Professionalism is killing the rugby I fell in love with. Iím disillusioned by it all. Disillusioned by Sarries stupidity, disillusioned by PRL, disillusioned by the RFU.

I guess this is my burning bridges, Iím off post. Apologies for it being so rambling, Iíve completely fallen out of love with the game I thought I loved and it feels like thereís a hole in my life I donít know what to replace with now. This last week has killed it. Sarries have f****d it up and I canít see it being repaired, especially as weíre refusing to accept it. The league is messed up and nobody cares so long as the salary cap is adhered to so everyone can pat each other on the back

All the best to clubs like Quins, Northampton, Bath and Exeter for both promoting English talent and having class England players while sticking to the salary cap. I hope your model wins through over the LI/Glaws/Bris/Sale/wasps strategy.

As a non Sarries fan I think you make a really good set of points, there are a load of clubs who really do nothing for the National team and I have moaned on our forum about the recruitment policies of a number of clubs, especially Irish and Sale / Glaws arenít far away. The cap is very flawed, no doubt, and there has to be more reward for trying to help the National side. Sadly however everyone signed in to the present cap, hence your current issues, and so it has to be adhered to. It does need to be totally overhauled however.

Re: Lynch mob
Noir 10 November, 2019 14:19
Been following the threads on this message board on the salary cap issue and felt moved to add some of my own thoughts, perhaps, like some others on here, with catharsis in mind. Let me declare that I have supported Saracens for many years and I therefore accept that I am open to accusations of bias. Thatís ok. SoÖ.

1. It seems that when Nigel established these co-investments, he took advice on whether they are deemed income or investment. I can only speculate, but it could be that advice was given in the context of the tax laws of this country Ė a perfectly reasonable approach. However, what if the salary cap regulations are not fully aligned with the tax laws? Some would argue that this would be a nonsense if that were the case and that Nigelís anger and disappointment is understandable. Brings me on to my second point.

2. Why did Nigel sign up to the salary cap regulations? Well its likely that even if he and his advisers had considered the possibility of what has now happened (unlikely at the time of signing I would think), he would have been faced with the choice to sign and join the Premiership or not sign and try and find somewhere else for Saracens to play. Not much of a choice really.

3. The regulations were drafted by those in the legal profession I would guess. Whether they were fully cognisant of tax law is a moot point. We have heard that, in the opinion of the RFU, the regulations are Ďsloppyí. They may be right they may be wrong, but the possibility exists that it is true and that the regulations are framed in such a way as to be open to interpretation. This brings me to my next point.

4. The fact that it took a 9 month investigation and reference to an independent panel for a ruling suggests that the regulations are equivocal. Otherwise any Salary Cap Manager demonstrating the necessary competence would simply refer to the unequivocal section of the regulations to provide clarity.

5. The concept of an independent panel. Well, what we have here is a panel of Ďlearned friendsí expressing an opinion on regulations likely written by other Ďlearned friendsí. The fact that they are having to express an opinion at all, reflects on the competency of their profession to analyse and articulate in order to come up with unequivocal regulations. We know that when professions investigate incidents involving their own, it is something that often enrages those affected by those incidents because of doubts, real or otherwise, that a fair hearing has applied. I can make no comment on whether the hearing was fair, I simply raise the point that the panel are open to that scrutiny and why itís perfectly reasonable for Nigel to go to review.

6. Finally, all those Premiership CEOs and DORs, together with ex and current players, opposition fans and keyboard warriors, who are baying for blood, should perhaps reflect on the fact that the expression of legal opinion does not mean that opinion is ultimately proved right. Legal process and those in the legal profession are fallible. History tells us that - innocent people have been convicted, often to cataclysmic effect.

Having watched the players in the changing room after the match yesterday I was reminded that we have a culture of togetherness at this club that money canít buy. It is my sincere wish that the extreme scrutiny of the salary cap regulations this affair is having will mean that we can keep the playing squad and coaches together and do so demonstrably and unequivocally within the cap.

Re: Lynch mob
JL904 10 November, 2019 14:29
Exiled Falcon - you say

"The cap is very flawed, no doubt, and there has to be more reward for trying to help the National side. Sadly however everyone signed in to the present cap, hence your current issues, and so it has to be adhered to. It does need to be totally overhauled however."

I couldn't agree more with you on this point. I think there's a possible tweak that would benefit every club long term, and the National team as a secondary benefit. It involves recognising the difference between developing your own young talent, buying in potential stars, and buying in seasoned internationals, and awarding salary credits accordingly. In this regard, not all internationals are equal. Examples :-

Owen Farrell and Maro Itoje - been with Saracens man and boy.

Vunipola brothers - signed at 20 years old as proven young internationals, but certainly not guaranteed to be come established seniors or Lions.

Elliot Daly - signed in his prime as a 30-odd cap veteran and Test Lion.

Now whilst there's currently a flat rate of credits for EQ internationals - there's also a limit per player and per club. It seems odd that a club who develops a 17-year old lad into England skipper (as Quins also did with Chris Robshaw) currently gets the same credit for Faz as they do for - on the one hand Elliott Daly - and on the other hand for example Nick Isiekwe or Jack Singleton, capped but well down Eddie's pecking order.

I wouldn't like to speak in terms of figures - just on the principle of rewarding any club for recognising, nurturing and retaining young talent. Acknowledging that sometimes it's not possible with ambitious yongsters ... hasn't Joel Kpoke just joined Saints because Itoje, Kruis, Isiekwe and Skelton are ahead of him.

This is just an initial thought - anyone care to develop this subject further?

Re: Lynch mob
Roger G 10 November, 2019 16:12
Quote:
Fish Food
Or just stop buying up all the England internationals. Vunipola x2, Singleton, Wigglesworth, Lozowski, Barritt, Daly, are all England internationals Sarries have bought. If having internationals is so bad, why are you buying so many of them?

I understand your anger and your point....but you need to get your facts straight. One of the Vunipolas was an international (just) before he came to us, Singleton AFAIK wasn't when he signed but has since been called up (but hardly an established international), Wiggy's international career appeared to be over when he joined us, Lozowski was, and still is, very much a fringe international (along with 2 or 3 dozen other players around the league), and Barritt was totally unknown in England, and nowhere near the national side, before he joined us. You do, however, make a good point with Daly, and you'll find many posters on here still scratching their heads as to why he's been signed, and how he's going to fit into our squad.

Re: Lynch mob
nixworld2 12 November, 2019 14:38
I donít think calling legitimate criticism for a judicial ruling can be called a ďlynch mobĒ and thinking that is does will not help you.

The player welfare discussion is a red herring, in my view. I know for a fact that other Premiership Clubs absolutely do support players to study and train for life after rugby. What they donít do is set up co-investments like this as a way to avoid the salary cap. Itís actually a bit insulting to other clubs to imply that it is only Saracens that care about their players, but thatís by the by. If Nigel Wray really cared about welfare in the way he claims, why is he only doing this with the most talented and therefore expensive players? Itís other players who might need it more, not Itoje or Farrell. It is a benefit that they received, as a financial inducement to play for Saracens, that they would not have received if they had not been a Saracens player. That is against the law and spirit of the cap.

Iím afraid Saracens attitude is the other problem here. If there had been a ďhands up, weíre sorryĒ message then the negativity would have been dampened. But the ďyouíre wrong, we still think we were right, no other club cares about their playersĒ messaging from the club is just getting everyoneís backs up. The review also puts the whole league in limbo and drags the whole thing out even longer.

I personally donít think Sarries should lose their titles etc- but any anger you feel here should be directed at the higher-ups at the club, not at journalists, other teams or other fans for being angry at the deliberate, systematic evasion of the salary cap. When I heard the news, I immediately felt sorry for the fans as you didnít ask for this. But a lot of the rhetoric I have read online will start to dim that sympathy before too long.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2019 14:40 by nixworld2.


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