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What did Sarries do
Discussion started by Duncan96 , 08 November, 2019 10:38
What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 10:38
Itís a shame the media, once again, are incapable of analysing a situation. I mean, has anyone seen a report which actually explains what happened?

Based on whatís been published I expect the public, and many vocal voices on this board, think Sarries broke the cap rules by making cash payments to players.

In fact what happened was:
A. Companies were set up co owned by players and NW
B. Those companies borrowed money and bought houses.

If there is a transfer of value which breaks the rules it is because NW provided a part of the loans. The terms of his loan determines if the rules were broken.

Quite technical isnít it? Thatís why the detail of what was disclosed years ago is important. If it was fully disclosed and cleared then the imposition of the harshest punishment of a team in history just isnít right. If important details were withheld then perhaps it is.

The trouble is I donít think we will ever see the detail and so will never know whether we should just accept this level of punishment as many would urge.

Thatís a shame because, one way or another it would be good to move on.

Re: What did Sarries do
Gray_Lensman 08 November, 2019 10:48
I think that most, if not all, people who have an interest in rugby and certainly those commenting here fully understand that players have not been receiving cash payments (so-called boot money - as certainly happened in the shamateur days). Equally, whilst some people will not have grasped the exact nature of how these commercial arrangements were intended to benefit select players, I am certain the fact that an independent panel has deemed them to have broken the salary-cap rules for a number of seasons and was duly punished is pretty easy to get your head around.

Re: What did Sarries do
ukms 08 November, 2019 10:59
Quote:
Duncan96
Itís a shame the media, once again, are incapable of analysing a situation. I mean, has anyone seen a report which actually explains what happened?
Based on whatís been published I expect the public, and many vocal voices on this board, think Sarries broke the cap rules by making cash payments to players.

In fact what happened was:
A. Companies were set up co owned by players and NW
B. Those companies borrowed money and bought houses.

If there is a transfer of value which breaks the rules it is because NW provided a part of the loans. The terms of his loan determines if the rules were broken.

Quite technical isnít it? Thatís why the detail of what was disclosed years ago is important. If it was fully disclosed and cleared then the imposition of the harshest punishment of a team in history just isnít right. If important details were withheld then perhaps it is.

The trouble is I donít think we will ever see the detail and so will never know whether we should just accept this level of punishment as many would urge.

Thatís a shame because, one way or another it would be good to move on.

From the level of detail youíve given about facts of what happened it seems that you have read some kind of report ? ..... any chance you can share a link to the source of your facts ?

Re: What did Sarries do
TOKS 08 November, 2019 11:08
Apart from the very few trolls on here I think everyone would like to know the facts.

I was chatting to a fairly senior guy at Allianz yesterday. Note he is senior on the insurance side I work on, he's nothing to do with the very senior management/sponsorship side. But he chats to people internally of course. They believe (not know) that the original Daily Mail story was leaked to them by a couple of Premiership clubs. It wasn't a scoop by the Mail at all, it was handed to them by a couple of clubs who became aware of these co-investments and wanted to see if there was any mileage in them. Which kind of answered a question for me, in that the Daily Mail know f*** all about rugby, how on earth would they uncover this.

PRL operate like a closed shop, with rules unlike any commercial organisation. Information is not disseminated which if you want to keep something secret is fantastic, but if you want it shared and known and brought out into the open is a disaster. So if Saracens think, as they do, that everything was materially above board but just advised inefficiently and late, they have two choices. Leave PRL, effectively resign, take it to a "normal" court of law and go through the full disclosure/review/legal process. If they "win" and clear their name, then great. But would PRL let them back in? Or stay within PRL where there is a growing fear that there are forces at work (11 other clubs basically) that want to find Saracens guilty irrespective of facts and evidence.

Hobson's choice really.

But on a slightly brighter note, if anyone has been to Allianz' head office in Gracechurch Street and seen the big Saracens photos on display in reception, i can assure them that they are still there!

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 11:23
What about the spirit of the cap? What about the fact that Wray/Sarries are members of PRL and yet it seems that at every turn they want to do their own thing, and against the wishes of the other clubs? Wray appears to think that he and his club are above the rules that the 12 clubs agree to.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 11:25
I havenít seen a report. Iím just summarising what was originally in the Daily Mail

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 11:28
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
I think that most, if not all, people who have an interest in rugby and certainly those commenting here fully understand that players have not been receiving cash payments (so-called boot money - as certainly happened in the shamateur days). Equally, whilst some people will not have grasped the exact nature of how these commercial arrangements were intended to benefit select players, I am certain the fact that an independent panel has deemed them to have broken the salary-cap rules for a number of seasons and was duly punished is pretty easy to get your head around.

There was an independent panel which recently found the people who were responsible for Grenfell Towers were the firemen. I have questions about that as well.

Thereís politics involved here (with a small p) which I personally find hard to take at face value. Happy to accept everything if the facts come out but will they?

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 11:32
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
What about the spirit of the cap? What about the fact that Wray/Sarries are members of PRL and yet it seems that at every turn they want to do their own thing, and against the wishes of the other clubs? Wray appears to think that he and his club are above the rules that the 12 clubs agree to.

Thatís why what was disclosed is important. If you disclose everything and ask if thatís ok, especially when itís not clear cut as here, then you are trying to stay within the rules. If you withhold facts you arenít.

If the panel said it wasnít done deliberately it makes the severity of the punishment even harder to understand

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 11:38
If the panel said that, and we only have Shady Nigel's word on that right now, then it may have been to cover their backsides for a legal reason. Or it may simply have been that they had no written or recorded evidence to categorically show that Wray deliberately cheated, and were forced to accept his word as gospel even though on the balance of probability they may have imagined he was lying to them.

Re: What did Sarries do
HonkyTonk 08 November, 2019 11:41
Forces at work - the other Prem clubs. What aload of rubbish. If some clubs did set the mail up with the story, good on them. Why should they not?? Why should the other 11 clubs sit back and let Sarries get away with cheating? If Sarries are upset with the ruling, why could the other clubs not be upset with Sarries for cheating. This is not a witch hunt. This is the rest of the Prem wanting Sarries to be held accountable for cheating.

There was a story about Wray challenging the legality of the cap. Why, he signed up to it knowing exactly what it was. If you are not breaking any rules, why would you need to challenge it??

You are quick to all point out that everyone is making assumptions about Sarries, there is no proof out there etc. Why should you believe what is said against Sarries?? Well the evidence should be that the panel found against you. On the flip side why should other clubs believe anything Sarries say. Wray has been interviewed but in reality there is not much substance to what he has said. A lot to say but nothing really that seems like you are innocent. From what Im reading the defence from Sarries fans seems to be deflecting tactics and saying alot without any real substance

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 11:45
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
If the panel said that, and we only have Shady Nigel's word on that right now, then it may have been to cover their backsides for a legal reason. Or it may simply have been that they had no written or recorded evidence to categorically show that Wray deliberately cheated, and were forced to accept his word as gospel even though on the balance of probability they may have imagined he was lying to them.

You may be right, you may be wrong. My point is it would be good as a Sarries fan to know the key facts, without guessing, so that we Can hold our hands up, say fair enough and move on with supporting the team as they battle relegation largely without the world class players who came through our academy who are restricted to us this season because of their England commitments.

But, I for one am left with a suspicion that there is some ďbacksideĒ covering going on as you suggest to do with the disclosure. Strangely enough Iíd rather know we were guilty than have these suspicions which will never be proven one way or the other.

Re: What did Sarries do
HonkyTonk 08 November, 2019 11:48
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
What about the spirit of the cap? What about the fact that Wray/Sarries are members of PRL and yet it seems that at every turn they want to do their own thing, and against the wishes of the other clubs? Wray appears to think that he and his club are above the rules that the 12 clubs agree to.

Thatís why what was disclosed is important. If you disclose everything and ask if thatís ok, especially when itís not clear cut as here, then you are trying to stay within the rules. If you withhold facts you arenít.

If the panel said it wasnít done deliberately it makes the severity of the punishment even harder to understand

You need to not pick and choose which bit of the verdict suit your argument. The panel also said "The decision of the Independent Panel is that Saracens Rugby Club failed to disclose payments to players in each of the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19."

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 11:52
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Re: What did Sarries do
ukms 08 November, 2019 11:53
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Gray_Lensman
I think that most, if not all, people who have an interest in rugby and certainly those commenting here fully understand that players have not been receiving cash payments (so-called boot money - as certainly happened in the shamateur days). Equally, whilst some people will not have grasped the exact nature of how these commercial arrangements were intended to benefit select players, I am certain the fact that an independent panel has deemed them to have broken the salary-cap rules for a number of seasons and was duly punished is pretty easy to get your head around.

There was an independent panel which recently found the people who were responsible for Grenfell Towers were the firemen. I have questions about that as well.

Thereís politics involved here (with a small p) which I personally find hard to take at face value. Happy to accept everything if the facts come out but will they?

I think youíll find in general that the panel actually applauded the actions of the heroic fire fighters on the ground. What has been criticised is the fire service itself and its leader ! Much like Saracens winking smiley

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 11:55
Iím not picking and choosing parts of the verdict. Iím asking: was everything disclosed fully in advance or not? No one on the PRL side has answered that.

If the answer is yes than why do we have the most severe team punishment in the history of sport? That doesnít add up.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:04
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:06
But Iím saying: give us the substance to know if everything was disclosed or not. The hard part is not having any substance if you sit where we are.

Re: What did Sarries do
Brown Bottle 08 November, 2019 12:09
Quote:
Duncan96
Iím not picking and choosing parts of the verdict. Iím asking: was everything disclosed fully in advance or not? No one on the PRL side has answered that.
If the answer is yes than why do we have the most severe team punishment in the history of sport? That doesnít add up.

I'm pretty sure you don't have the "most severe team punishment in the history of sport" but the punishment was calculated on rules agreed by all the clubs in PRL.



BB

Re: What did Sarries do
JFPC 08 November, 2019 12:09
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

The evidence that lead to the verdict is unlikely to be released unless Sarries choose to release it themselves. PRL would most likely be sued by Sarries if they release the data on players' salaries and other such confidential financial data that led to this verdict.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2019 12:10 by JFPC.

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 12:11
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

Quote:
PRL
The decision of the Independent Panel is that Saracens Rugby Club failed to disclose payments to players in each of the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19.

Re: What did Sarries do
wombles222 08 November, 2019 12:21
I think all of us would be fascinated to know the ins and outs of the investigation, however given that the chance of seeing the full documentation is very unlikley we must then look towards the knowns:

1: This was a 9 month investigation by PR
2: All findings were given to an independant body of the most highly qualified people to provide a independant judgement
3: All sides have been given the opportunity to present their case and evidence to inform the decision.
4: A guilty verdict was administered and punishment provided
5: A review (not a appeal) is to be heard, the guilty verdict remains, and unless a gross mistake has occured then this is not likely to change the outcome.
5: not only does the result note the co-investment, there is undisclosed financial elements and also offshore accounts for players..the fact here is that we are not privvy to what that entriely means, but we know it is there.

The facts are Wray and Sarries have been cheating for at least 3 previous seasons, this is not in dispute. I think to try to say you are not convinced until we are given full access to the whole investigation is an understandable but ultimately fruitless endevour.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:22
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

Quote:
PRL
The decision of the Independent Panel is that Saracens Rugby Club failed to disclose payments to players in each of the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19.

There is a difficulty for me in that I canít go into detail without breaking confidence. Itís that I know from people I know to be honest that disclosure was made. I donít know the details of the disclosure but I know the people personally and know them to be honest.

So, the question still is, given that disclosure was made: was anything left out? In my experience these panels can be subject to politics. I donít know if they happened here but canít help having suspicions while the disclosure questions remain.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:24
Quote:
JFPC
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

The evidence that lead to the verdict is unlikely to be released unless Sarries choose to release it themselves. PRL would most likely be sued by Sarries if they release the data on players' salaries and other such confidential financial data that led to this verdict.

Itís easy for the PRL to say what was not disclosed in principle without giving names and numbers.

Re: What did Sarries do
HonkyTonk 08 November, 2019 12:26
Basically, what some Sarries fans are saying is that until there is a finding in your favour, you will not believe you did anything wrong, despite being found guilty.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:26
I think youíll find in general that the panel actually applauded the actions of the heroic fire fighters on the ground. What has been criticised is the fire service itself and its leader ! Much like Saracens

But I still question the findings of that independent panel so my point stands

Re: What did Sarries do
John Tee 08 November, 2019 12:29
perception is a bug though isnt it ?
Probably the entire league now thinks Saracens are far from honest and that will take years to dissolve..

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:30
5: not only does the result note the co-investment, there is undisclosed financial elements and also offshore accounts for players..the fact here is that we are not privvy to what that entriely means, but we know it is there.

Where does the finding that offshore accounts etc were involved come from please. Iíve seen no report of that connected with the panels findings

Re: What did Sarries do
cwrich 08 November, 2019 12:34
Seems to me the problem here for Nigel is that the coinvestment schemes the PRL didnít like turn out to be the ones he forgot to disclose to the club ( wonder if the players are also obliged to make disclosure? ). I know Iím jumping to a conclusion but that fits the narrative .. ďwe had a precedent so we thought everything would be ok, we forgot to disclose these other ones ... surely they must be ok as wellĒ.
This feels analogous to me to the ďtax avoidance/ tax evasionĒ arguments that arose around film development investment schemes. Iím afraid that unless/until Nigel and the players disclose the details ( PRL arenít going to clearly) , which Iím guessing they wonít, this all feels like evasion of the cap to me

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 12:35
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

Quote:
PRL
The decision of the Independent Panel is that Saracens Rugby Club failed to disclose payments to players in each of the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19.

There is a difficulty for me in that I canít go into detail without breaking confidence. Itís that I know from people I know to be honest that disclosure was made. I donít know the details of the disclosure but I know the people personally and know them to be honest.

So, the question still is, given that disclosure was made: was anything left out? In my experience these panels can be subject to politics. I donít know if they happened here but canít help having suspicions while the disclosure questions remain.

Perhaps your pals only know what Wray told them, and being that he still thinks he's done nothing wrong then I can see why you'd believe all that. Not much more to debate really.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:41
Perhaps your pals only know what Wray told them, and being that he still thinks he's done nothing wrong then I can see why you'd believe all that. Not much more to debate really.

No, thatís not the case they didnít have to take anyoneís word for anything but, yes, weíd best leave it there.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 12:53
Quote:
cwrich
Seems to me the problem here for Nigel is that the coinvestment schemes the PRL didnít like turn out to be the ones he forgot to disclose to the club ( wonder if the players are also obliged to make disclosure? ). I know Iím jumping to a conclusion but that fits the narrative .. ďwe had a precedent so we thought everything would be ok, we forgot to disclose these other ones ... surely they must be ok as wellĒ.
This feels analogous to me to the ďtax avoidance/ tax evasionĒ arguments that arose around film development investment schemes. Iím afraid that unless/until Nigel and the players disclose the details ( PRL arenít going to clearly) , which Iím guessing they wonít, this all feels like evasion of the cap to me

But no one has suggested that Saracens didnít disclose ďthese other onesĒ.

Happy to be proved wrong if you could provide a link? If you can, that answers my question for me and I can move on without the concerns Iíve expressed.

Re: What did Sarries do
Bedlington Lad 08 November, 2019 13:02
PRL STATEMENT
The Independent Panel - which conducted a hearing over five days in September and October 2019 - was chaired by the Rt. Hon. Lord Dyson, who was joined on the panel by Aidan Robertson QC and Jeremy Summers.

The decision of the Independent Panel is that Saracens Rugby Club failed to disclose payments to players in each of the seasons 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19. In addition, the Club is found to have exceeded the ceiling for payments to senior players in each of the three seasons. The Panel therefore upheld all of the charges. The sanction that has been imposed on Saracens Rugby Club by the panel is:

A total fine of £5,360,272.31 and a total deduction of 35 league points.

The Salary Cap Regulations stipulate that a points deduction may be imposed in the current season (2019-20) only. The sanction has no bearing on any other domestic or European competition.

Re: What did Sarries do
JFPC 08 November, 2019 13:06
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
JFPC
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

The evidence that lead to the verdict is unlikely to be released unless Sarries choose to release it themselves. PRL would most likely be sued by Sarries if they release the data on players' salaries and other such confidential financial data that led to this verdict.

Itís easy for the PRL to say what was not disclosed in principle without giving names and numbers.

The prl agreement that everybody (including Sarries) signed up to essentially says that everything will be kept confidential.

Saying you won't accept the independent panel's decision unless they break the confidentiality agreement is an odd position to take.

Re: What did Sarries do
quin_jon 08 November, 2019 13:12
Quote:

Saying you won't accept the independent panel's decision unless they break the confidentiality agreement is an odd position to take.

Especially compared to the investigation, and subsequent payments, three years ago where the confidentiality agreement protected Sarries.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 13:17
Quote:
JFPC
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
JFPC
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Duncan96, it would be nice for all fans to know all the facts but there's almost zero chance of that. Some of you seem to be using that likelihood as an excuse to accept what's going on.

Excuse? Saying that itís reasonable to know whether we disclosed everything up front? Mmmm

The evidence that lead to the verdict is unlikely to be released unless Sarries choose to release it themselves. PRL would most likely be sued by Sarries if they release the data on players' salaries and other such confidential financial data that led to this verdict.


Itís easy for the PRL to say what was not disclosed in principle without giving names and numbers.

The prl agreement that everybody (including Sarries) signed up to essentially says that everything will be kept confidential.

Saying you won't accept the independent panel's decision unless they break the confidentiality agreement is an odd position to take.

Saracens have made public quotes saying the details were disclosed. The PRL could easily release a response, without breaching confidentiality saying x,y,z were not disclosed. They donít have to give names or numbers. Just principles. When the other side have made public statements confidentiality clauses donít prevent you replying in kind

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 13:19
PRL don't need to respond - it's all there in their statement. The fact that Wray is still clinging to the 'investments are not salary' line says a lot.

Re: What did Sarries do
HonkyTonk 08 November, 2019 13:23
The PRL do not have to release or prove anything to anyone. Sarries will know and I guess the other clubs as apart of PRL will know.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 13:29
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
PRL don't need to respond - it's all there in their statement. The fact that Wray is still clinging to the 'investments are not salary' line says a lot.

Iím sure youíre right, they donít need to respond and wonít do. So in all likelihood we Sarries fans will bear our punishment forever with question marks About factors that donít add up.

Such is life. My point has always just been that it would have been nice to know what elements, in principle, of the investment companies were not disclosed, given that disclosure was made, Sarries say in full and presumably PRL say not.

Itís not a lot to ask given the huge size of the penalty so that we, Sarries fans, can move on.

But, as you say, it wonít happen

Re: What did Sarries do
Dorset Boy 08 November, 2019 13:29
Duncan, could it be that the club / players disclosed they held shares in the investment companies, but no details were provided regarding the founding and structure of the investment companies. Sarries claim disclosure.

The DM & other PRL clubs then dig and discover that the players paid nothing for the shares, that the assets (which are income generating) are purchased due to a preferential loan from Uncle Nige, and that they are in reality deferred income schemes.

Some of Wray's arguments about long term welfare really fall down when you consider these investment schemes were only offered to his top earners, and not more widely across long serving squad members.

The cap has no loopholes as if anyone involved discovers a suspected loophole they have to declare it - similar to the general tax avoidance regulations.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 13:32
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Duncan, could it be that the club / players disclosed they held shares in the investment companies, but no details were provided regarding the founding and structure of the investment companies. Sarries claim disclosure.
The DM & other PRL clubs then dig and discover that the players paid nothing for the shares, that the assets (which are income generating) are purchased due to a preferential loan from Uncle Nige, and that they are in reality deferred income schemes.

Some of Wray's arguments about long term
welfare really fall down when you consider these investment schemes were only offered to his top earners, and not more widely across long serving squad members.

The cap has no loopholes as if anyone involved discovers a suspected loophole they have to declare it - similar to the general tax avoidance regulations.

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. Iím just saying it would be nice to know, in principle so that confidentiality is not broken, what were the elements not disclosed which makes the most severe team punishment in the history of sport appropriate, given that some disclosure at the very least took place.

Guessing is whatís going on at the moment

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 13:32
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Duncan, could it be that the club / players disclosed they held shares in the investment companies, but no details were provided regarding the founding and structure of the investment companies. Sarries claim disclosure.
The DM & other PRL clubs then dig and discover that the players paid nothing for the shares, that the assets (which are income generating) are purchased due to a preferential loan from Uncle Nige, and that they are in reality deferred income schemes.

Some of Wray's arguments about long term
welfare really fall down when you consider these investment schemes were only offered to his top earners, and not more widely across long serving squad members.

The cap has no loopholes as if anyone involved discovers a suspected loophole they have to declare it - similar to the general tax avoidance regulations.

Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong. Iím just saying it would be nice to know, in principle so that confidentiality is not broken, what were the elements not disclosed which makes the most severe team punishment in the history of sport appropriate, given that some disclosure at the very least took place.

Guessing is whatís going on at the moment

Re: What did Sarries do
Dorset Boy 08 November, 2019 13:38
Duncan - 'most severe team punishment in sport' is not correct. A points deduction and fine is significantly less bad than immediate relegation and bans from competition as has happened in other team sports. Let alone the titles having not been stripped either.
so please don't claim it's the harshest punishment in team sport because it isn't! smileys with beer

Re: What did Sarries do
Geewhiz50 08 November, 2019 13:42
Quite a great deal of information can be found online by typing in the player's name at Companies House and then viewing the accounts associated with the company(ies) of which he is a director and/or shareholder. I also hope full disclosure has been made by the club to HMRC in order to avoid penalties for non-disclosure of disguised remuneration schemes.

Apart from the above, I feel sorry for the fans of Sarries since their style of play has improved tremendously in the past few years and they are quite pleasurable to watch when in full flow. However, if the allegations are correct, then I hope the club can take the hit; reorganise within the regulations and move on.

Finally, I must question the position regarding the current year. This has not been mentioned, but if they are still applying the same guidelines in payments to players then they must be in breach of the regulations for the current year. Will the PRL give the club time to re-organise? I sincerely hope so.

Re: What did Sarries do
HonkyTonk 08 November, 2019 13:45
And the penalties inflicted, they were not random numbers picked out to hurt Sarries, they are the specified penalties in the agreement that Sarries were supposed to abide by. My lot Quins, we were fined 12 grand for a breach last season, that was not a random number, it was in line with the crime we committed, even though it was us that brought it to the attn of Prem Rugby and it was due to an admin error, does not matter, we broke it and were punished in line with the regs, like Sarries have been. Likewise Wasps last season.

Its also why talk of relegation is not an option, that is not listed in the list of punishments set out for this type of cheating.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 13:48
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Duncan - 'most severe team punishment in sport' is not correct. A points deduction and fine is significantly less bad than immediate relegation and bans from competition as has happened in other team sports. Let alone the titles having not been stripped either.
so please don't claim it's the harshest punishment in team sport because it isn't! smileys with beer

Yes, you are right. I just googled it and Juventus plus 4 other clubs were automatically relegated.

There arenít any other examples I can find though where relegation was automatic as opposed to being caused by points deduction.

Happy to be corrected though.

Having said that, hopefully, we can agree that our punishment is severe, especially as weíll be fighting relegation largely without the world class players who came through our academy and who will be restricted to us because of this seasons England commitments.

Youíll no doubt say thatís tough, and if we did not fully disclose all the details I would agree with you.

That doesnít take away from it being a very severe punishment, if not the worst as I previously said.

Re: What did Sarries do
Quinten Poulsen 08 November, 2019 13:54
I don't think it's particularly severe. Wray's worth over 300 mill so the fine's no biggy, and the points amount to 7 bonus point wins for 3 consecutive seasons of cheating. Wow.

Getting hoyed down to the lowest division in the league would be severe, like wot happened to Richmond all those years ago.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 13:56
Quote:
HonkyTonk
And the penalties inflicted, they were not random numbers picked out to hurt Sarries, they are the specified penalties in the agreement that Sarries were supposed to abide by. My lot Quins, we were fined 12 grand for a breach last season, that was not a random number, it was in line with the crime we committed, even though it was us that brought it to the attn of Prem Rugby and it was due to an admin error, does not matter, we broke it and were punished in line with the regs, like Sarries have been. Likewise Wasps last season.
Its also why talk of relegation is not an option, that is not listed in the list of punishments set out for this type of cheating.

Thatís very interesting. Thank you for it but it raises a host of questions.

What was the value they used to calculate the fine?

The players donít actually benefit At all unless the value of the houses plus rents goes up and exceeds the value of the loans, interest on the loans and management charges for running the properties.

The Daily Mail quoted Bermondsey as an area for some of the houses. Since 2016 property in that area has fallen in value so, as of today, the players will see nothing.

Oh well. Add it to the list of questions weíll never have an answer to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2019 13:57 by Duncan96.

Re: What did Sarries do
Duncan96 08 November, 2019 14:02
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
I don't think it's particularly severe. Wray's worth over 300 mill so the fine's no biggy, and the points amount to 7 bonus point wins for 3 consecutive seasons of cheating. Wow.
Getting hoyed down to the lowest division in the league would be severe, like wot happened to Richmond all those years ago.

Now come on. 35 points in a season when we largely will not have the world class players who came through our academy because of their England commitments will very likely lead to relegation.

You will say that is appropriate and if the details were not fully disclosed I agree with you.

It is severe though

Re: What did Sarries do
JFPC 08 November, 2019 14:12
Quote:
Duncan96
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
I don't think it's particularly severe. Wray's worth over 300 mill so the fine's no biggy, and the points amount to 7 bonus point wins for 3 consecutive seasons of cheating. Wow.
Getting hoyed down to the lowest division in the league would be severe, like wot happened to Richmond all those years ago.

Now come on. 35 points in a season when we largely will not have the world class players who came through our academy because of their England commitments will very likely lead to relegation.

You will say that is appropriate and if the details were not fully disclosed I agree with you.

It is severe though

It is the pre-agreed punishment as per the leagues rules, Sarries agreed to the rules. I agree that coming in a RWC year makes it harder to overcome but it could have come two years ago and then you might not have so many trophies in the cabinet.

Re: What did Sarries do
cwrich 08 November, 2019 14:25
Duncan - I believe that once the overspend breaks a threshold it is £3 fine for every £1 of overspend so I guess divide the fine by 3 and you are in the right ballpark, ie approx£1.7m over the 3 years. As they havenít already I guess they wonít publish the detail

If DorsetBoys guess is close to the mark ( itís what Iíd put my money on ) ...the players will probably be receiving rental income so itís not at this stage just about property values

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