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Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Brown Bottle 09 January, 2020 20:00
Quote:
Sarriebone
Tweet from David Flatman:
Iím not one for rumours to be honest, so I donít ask people on the QT. Today, though, I got two messages from mates, one telling me a senior Sarries player had signed for Bath - ďDone dealĒ. Then another saying the same player had extended at Sarries. ďDone dealĒ. Back to my tea.

Excellent! smiling smiley



BB

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ElephantJuice 10 January, 2020 20:18
An interview with Lord Dyson, sho headed the Sarrie inquiry. It starts at about 29mins 30 secs and he is quite scathing of both Sarries and PRL:

[www.lawinsport.com]

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
paulglynn 11 January, 2020 00:47
Thanks that is a great listen

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Curmujjen 11 January, 2020 09:56
Edward Griffiths playing a blinder. He set the hare running and the hounds are now furiously chasing it hither and thither, leaving him to do his sums in peace and quiet.

A bit like Flats, I have it from a good source that it has already been decided, and revealed to the squad, who is leaving. And just like Flats, I don't believe a word of it.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ukms 11 January, 2020 14:49
Quote:
Curmujjen
You need to get out a bit more.

Ha ha .... possibly ! .... I guess youíll be following me winking smiley

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Gwendoline 11 January, 2020 16:49
Saints fan here in peace . Happy new year to you all.

There is something I dont understand and its a technical point. Mr Griffiths says the current squad exceeds the cap.
If any club has a squad of players all with contracts (and these run season to season generally) then how exactly can anyone reduce those contractual obligations half way through a season ? I don;'t see how it can be done.
Because any payments for early termination count in the cap.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Marlow Nick 11 January, 2020 18:21
Gwendoline,
There appear to be three options available within the rules two of which require players' agreement
1. Several players agree to a mid season pay cut despite what their contracts say
2. A few players leave the club mid season and don't claim their entitlement to a full season pay as presumably that's what their contract says (this may possibly apply yo Liam Williams making a mid season move to Scarlets
3. If a player is injured all season AND there is a medical certificate AND no injury cover is brought in then the salary is not counted. The gamble here is what if the player heals faster than expected?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Wilson Pickett 11 January, 2020 20:50
Why on earth would a rugby player volunteer leaving and loses 6 months salary ?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
LutonS 12 January, 2020 10:40
I may have missed it but where did EG say the current squad exceeds the cap?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Marlow Nick 12 January, 2020 11:32
Quote:
LutonS
I may have missed it but where did EG say the current squad exceeds the cap?
He may not have used that exact phrase but he has stated that he is having conversations with players and will consult with McCall on what changes to make

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Roger G 12 January, 2020 11:52
Quote:
Marlow Nick
Quote:
LutonS
I may have missed it but where did EG say the current squad exceeds the cap?
He may not have used that exact phrase but he has stated that he is having conversations with players and will consult with McCall on what changes to make

It's worth listening to the interview with EG on WIll Greenwoods Skysports podcast. He seems to me to be very careful with his words, and effectively to caveat everything with "if necessary" or some such words. I think ED is still looking at the figures to find out if anything has to be done, but suggests that some changes will be made whether they are necesary or not.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
LutonS 12 January, 2020 15:43
Quote:
Roger G
It's worth listening to the interview with EG on WIll Greenwoods Skysports podcast. He seems to me to be very careful with his words, and effectively to caveat everything with "if necessary" or some such words. I think ED is still looking at the figures to find out if anything has to be done, but suggests that some changes will be made whether they are necesary or not.

Just had a listen to it, the only definite from it is that the fine was calculated on the overspend (presumably) across the three seasons in question, 16/17, 17/18 & 18/19. So at least it's plain how far over the cap we were.

He also (rightly), says that the cap is only a factor on June 30th as that's the only date clubs have to be under the cap. So points about Saracens picking up points whilst still over the cap are complete nonsense.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
EverOptimistic 12 January, 2020 16:59
You're absolutely right LutonS . It's plain Saracens were over the cap by at least £650,000 - could have been ten times that of course.

And it's perfectly fair and ethical to utilise a squad some way over the cap to get out of relegation danger and then offload enough players part way through the season to make the numbers add up. Not unfair to the players offloaded or to the teams beaten before they were offloaded.

I really want to get my respect for Saracens back, but it makes it hard when the blinkers remain firmy in place.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 12 January, 2020 17:10
Quote:
Sarriebone
Are you seriously saying he would still be an ambassador for Wasps and have a hospitality suite at the Ricoh even if he hadn't played for the club?

Exactly. There's an interesting question to be asked about Dallaglios Wasps Directorship too given his protestations that he stayed at Wasps for so many years on "less money than he could have got elsewhere" In fact if you want a laugh generally listen to him on the Ruck on an almost weekly basis tying himself in knots with contradictory views; he doesn't believe that Saracens attract players on less money than they could be on at other clubs / he himself stayed at Wasps on far less than he could have got elsewhere. It's not possible to keep all your top players under the constraints of the cap which showed Saracens were cheating / no comment about "his" Wasps team kept together which a significant number of England's winning 2003 squad. Funnily enough no comment at all about the systematic cheating/uncontested scrums employed over numerous games including Semi-Finals and Finals in which Wasps won including silverware.

That along with the actions of their off-shore owner who effectively turned them into a franchise to chase a property deal and is currently being investigated for fraud would all just be noise and yet it seems it needs highlighting for a group of ignorant (of their history) and hypocritical Wasps posters we encounter again and again telling us how we should feel about our club and how they would never support cheating ... ho-hum.

To the many brilliant Wasps supporters, all the best at a difficult time. To the usual suspects, stop throwing so many stones from that gigantic glass house.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
LutonS 12 January, 2020 17:14
OK lets break it down and look at a hypothetical situation where the cap is a flat £7 million with no additional credits or injuries. In this situation a club's player wages per month are £600,000.

Taking the hypothetical cap year as January to December, in which month does a club breach the cap?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2020 17:31 by LutonS.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ElephantJuice 12 January, 2020 17:41
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
Marlow Nick
Quote:
LutonS
I may have missed it but where did EG say the current squad exceeds the cap?

He may not have used that exact phrase but he has stated that he is having conversations with players and will consult with McCall on what changes to make

It's worth listening to the interview with EG on WIll Greenwoods Skysports podcast. He seems to me to be very careful with his words, and effectively to caveat everything with "if necessary" or some such words.

Grasping at straws....

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Roger G 12 January, 2020 19:13
Quote:
ElephantJuice
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
Marlow Nick
Quote:
LutonS
I may have missed it but where did EG say the current squad exceeds the cap?

He may not have used that exact phrase but he has stated that he is having conversations with players and will consult with McCall on what changes to make

It's worth listening to the interview with EG on WIll Greenwoods Skysports podcast. He seems to me to be very careful with his words, and effectively to caveat everything with "if necessary" or some such words.

Grasping at straws....

Maybe. Time wil tell.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Marlow Nick 12 January, 2020 20:38
Quote:
LutonS
Quote:
Roger G
It's worth listening to the interview with EG on WIll Greenwoods Skysports podcast. He seems to me to be very careful with his words, and effectively to caveat everything with "if necessary" or some such words. I think ED is still looking at the figures to find out if anything has to be done, but suggests that some changes will be made whether they are necesary or not.

Just had a listen to it, the only definite from it is that the fine was calculated on the overspend (presumably) across the three seasons in question, 16/17, 17/18 & 18/19. So at least it's plain how far over the cap we were.

He also (rightly), says that the cap is only a factor on June 30th as that's the only date clubs have to be under the cap. So points about Saracens picking up points whilst still over the cap are complete nonsense.

May I suggest that you also listen to the podcast with Lotd Dyson who led the review. He states that there were two very significant breaches of the cap by Saracens.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
carlyleuk 12 January, 2020 21:31
Lord Dysons interview is very interesting; challenge to competition law and the 'tricky question' on the co-investments being salary (a strong mention on the ' very very broad definition of salary' by the PRL.)

If Lord Dyson found it tricky, I suppose others of less knowledge could make a mistake.

As Lord Dyson points out, let their be transparency. A more detailed summary of the judgement would be beneficial.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 13 January, 2020 18:44
Quote:
carlyleuk
Lord Dysons interview is very interesting; challenge to competition law and the 'tricky question' on the co-investments being salary (a strong mention on the ' very very broad definition of salary' by the PRL.)
If Lord Dyson found it tricky, I suppose others of less knowledge could make a mistake.

As Lord Dyson points out, let their be transparency. A more detailed summary of the judgement would be beneficial.

Agree. I found it interesting but not that satisfying as he obviously can't say anything. There was about twenty five minutes from 29 minutes on and then they drifted off into talking about other stuff. Did it go back to talking about Saracens? Agree 100% with his suggestions both that a more detailed summary would have been more helpful but more importantly that it really should have been made public with redaction's were it might have related to sensitive information.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ukms 13 January, 2020 18:57
A serious question .......if Saracens want to come clean ... what is to stop the club publishing a suitably anonymised breakdown of their salary accounting showing exactly where they went wrong ? Who in their right mind would take issue with this ?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 13 January, 2020 20:43
Quote:
Marlow Nick
May I suggest that you also listen to the podcast with Lotd Dyson who led the review. He states that there were two very significant breaches of the cap by Saracens.

May I suggest you listen to it again Nick as that's not what he says. He says there were "two particular factors that made it a serious case"

This is part of the problem with this whole discussion. There are precious few facts in evidence and even when there are some people either unintentionally or willingly misrepresent their view of a statement as a fact. See above re EGs comments on balancing the books. I am yet to see anywhere where he says definitively that we will have to rather that they are looking at what they would need to do if we have to.

It isn't just semantics it's the difference between a discussion based on the few facts we have and one based on making stuff up.

Saints fan in peace and frustration ..

The general problem other clubs have with Saracens is the lack of comprehension that is shown to why other clubs are so upset by this and things are all ok now.

There was a very good post on the Saints site which summed this up well -

ď To be clear, when I (and a lot of people) refer to an illegal squad, we are not talking about it being illegal this season. The argument is that this is a squad that has been built illegally, it would not exist if it were not for illegal payments. As such the club continues to benefit from illegal activity even if it does manage to come within the cap this season. At the moment it is like someone taking
drugs to bulk up their body and then arguing that they are no longer on drugs so all is OK. This squad is a result of financial doping and, much as with drugs, the effects remain once the payments stop.Ē

When Sarries and Bath were caught with Salary cap problems in 2015 rather than take heed Sarries turned to cheating into a systematic and deep rooted strategy. I would go as far as saying the whole culture of Sarries has been built on falsehoods and cheating.

Simply put You would not have your squad and none of your trophies without having done that and therefore saying all ok now without seeing a significant externally visible change people will remain to be sceptical.

I agree with blackheath in that the land of the blind the one eyed man is King so it would be best all round to publish all the facts.

One would assume that Sarries are fully aware of the claims against them and the detail of the significant breaches. If the PL will not publish then why donít Sarries - why are they not fully coming clean on their practices and lancing the boil once and for all

It would seem that the answer is that it does not suit Sarries to do so and that is doing nothing but to underline the continued lack of integrity.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
tpr's headmistress 14 January, 2020 08:48
Peace .......?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Wayoutwest 14 January, 2020 09:05
Sorry Saint, that is not in "peace".

How does the poster know that if the investments were not paid the players would have left? There is no evidence that would have happened. As mentioned higher up, other winning clubs such as Wasps and Tigers managed to keep their team together despite a cap so there is our evidence. Given the squad and strength, our coaching team and academy to say we would have not won any trophies is absolute rubbish.

The whole post smacks of jealousy and a hatred and does not move the discussion on.

No one is jealous of Sarries winning by such systematic cheating and building a toxic culture.

If you are happy winning that way than thatís your look out -but if winning is so important that you can not contemplate competing on a level playing field you may as well go and watch Liverpool play a team of todders each week

It is fair to say no one can not prove you would not have won them anyway - but nor can you claim you would have won them anyway and that is the fundamental issue here.

It is interesting that the Wikipedia article on Mark McCall states the main reason for success was due to strategy of squad rotation - which would not have been possible without the cheating.

The trophies are tainted for ever if the club wants celebrate them thatís up to Sarries but itís a very hollow victory.

Rather than playing snowflake hurt over my post why do not start a supporters campaign to force the club to undertake a full disclosure of information and make commitments about sticking to rules in the future

Itís very telling that is not on the agenda of posters on your site who seem to think all this criticism is rather untoward



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/01/2020 09:32 by Saint.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Brown Bottle 14 January, 2020 10:23
Quote:
Wayoutwest
How does the poster know that if the investments were not paid the players would have left? There is no evidence that would have happened.

So, the salary cap cheating was a waste of time, then?



BB

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Roger G 14 January, 2020 10:49
Quote:
Brown Bottle
Quote:
Wayoutwest
How does the poster know that if the investments were not paid the players would have left? There is no evidence that would have happened.

So, the salary cap cheating was a waste of time, then?

Good question BB. IMHO the answer is yes, it was unecessary, if that's the same as being a waste of time. If the figures are as reported, the excess payments, if they had been spent on additional players rather than top ups for the top earners, would have bought us maybe 3-4 good squad players. I really don't believe any of those top players would have left the club if the co-investments hadn't happened.

I also believe a slightly diminished squad (i.e. by 3-4 players) might still have won the various trophies, especially as there's good evidence that a lot of our success is based on coaching (e.g. the performance of our largely second string team at the weekend). So. for me, the salary cap breaches have primarily bought animosity and distrust from other clubs and their supporters, along with an unproveable (either way) suspicion that we might not have been so successful. The points deduction and fine are secondary problems in my eyes.

So, was it worth it? No IMHO. I'd much rather have a trophy or two less, and be able to co-exist happily with supporters of other clubs.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Wayoutwest 14 January, 2020 11:27
Saint, your twisted view of the affair helps no one and does not move the conversation on. I am no snowflake by the way. We have been found guilty and paid the full price allowable under the agreed regulations ones that your club even signed up to. Time to move on, or do you suggest we live in the past?

I will remember our wins with warm nostalgia for I cant change anything and I believe we would have won them anyway. I am starting though to look forward now and relish the opportunity to show you how much better this squad can become with the expert coaching and right environment.

More trophies to come in my view.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Statesman 14 January, 2020 14:27
Quote:
Wayoutwest
We have been found guilty and paid the full price allowable under the agreed regulations ones that your club even signed up to.

You might want to read the SCRís. In particular 14.3 (d) and (e).

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ramseysaint 14 January, 2020 15:43
Quote:
Statesman
Quote:
Wayoutwest
We have been found guilty and paid the full price allowable under the agreed regulations ones that your club even signed up to.

You might want to read the SCRís. In particular 14.3 (d) and (e).

14.3(e) is interesting as it states

ďimpose any financial penaltyĒ (emphasis added) and reduce the Senior Ceiling for that Club for the subsequent year.

So the £5+ million was the financial penalty, what is the club's Ceiling now? Has is been reduced?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
1876-Fez 14 January, 2020 16:52
Quote:
ramseysaint
Quote:
Statesman
Quote:
Wayoutwest
We have been found guilty and paid the full price allowable under the agreed regulations ones that your club even signed up to.

You might want to read the SCRís. In particular 14.3 (d) and (e).

14.3(e) is interesting as it states

ďimpose any financial penaltyĒ (emphasis added) and reduce the Senior Ceiling for that Club for the subsequent year.

So the £5+ million was the financial penalty, what is the club's Ceiling now? Has is been reduced?

Probably best to ask the supporters of other clubs that post on here as they seem to know more about the whole situation than we do ;-)



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Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
b_sting 15 January, 2020 09:47
Hi all, some of you may have come across this already but a blog I follow has been doing a series of interesting articles on the whole salary cap case. The latest one on how Sarries are going to have to make cuts this season might be of interest!
[url=http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/01/13/saracens-and-the-salary-cap-part-iv-premiership-rugby-wage-reduction-player-release-compliance-regulations/][/url]

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sans Culottes 15 January, 2020 10:01
Quote:
b_sting
Hi all, some of you may have come across this already but a blog I follow has been doing a series of interesting articles on the whole salary cap case. The latest one on how Sarries are going to have to make cuts this season might be of interest!
[url=http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/01/13/saracens-and-the-salary-cap-part-iv-premiership-rugby-wage-reduction-player-release-compliance-regulations/][/url]

Very good article. Thanks for the link.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 15 January, 2020 12:02
Quote:
b_sting
Hi all, some of you may have come across this already but a blog I follow has been doing a series of interesting articles on the whole salary cap case. The latest one on how Sarries are going to have to make cuts this season might be of interest!
[url=http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/01/13/saracens-and-the-salary-cap-part-iv-premiership-rugby-wage-reduction-player-release-compliance-regulations/][/url]

Edward Griffiths, explained that cuts will need to be made in order to comply with the Regulations this season
As has been stated numerous times above, he hasn't said that at all, he has said it might need to happen.

Now I'm not saying they don't need to happen, other than the club and PRL nobody knows if we need to or not so it's just another speculative blog post. The only difference from any other blogpost/article we've seen so far being some legal jargon thrown in.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ukms 15 January, 2020 12:14
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
b_sting
Hi all, some of you may have come across this already but a blog I follow has been doing a series of interesting articles on the whole salary cap case. The latest one on how Sarries are going to have to make cuts this season might be of interest!
[url=http://rugbyandthelaw.com/2020/01/13/saracens-and-the-salary-cap-part-iv-premiership-rugby-wage-reduction-player-release-compliance-regulations/][/url]

Edward Griffiths, explained that cuts will need to be made in order to comply with the Regulations this season
As has been stated numerous times above, he hasn't said that at all, he has said it might need to happen.

Now I'm not saying they don't need to happen, other than the club and PRL nobody knows if we need to or not so it's just another speculative blog post. The only difference from any other blogpost/article we've seen so far being some legal jargon thrown in.

With respect you have no more idea what he said than the OP or the blogger .... As with many when it suits your discussion you are happy to believe what is quoted by the press ..... when it doesnít suit you disagree ..... canít have it both ways

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 15 January, 2020 12:29
Quote:
ukms
With respect you have no more idea what he said than the OP or the blogger .... As with many when it suits your discussion you are happy to believe what is quoted by the press ..... when it doesnít suit you disagree ..... canít have it both ways

Given he's provided a source, which is great, we know that the RugbyPass article used for his claim that "cuts will have to be made" clearly states in the first paragraph that EG has said it "may" need to happen. From that the blogger and numerous other articles/forum posts have taken that as an admission that the squad is over the cap. If the blogger wants to use that as a point in his blog, that EG has said cuts will need to be made, then he should use a source that actually quotes him as having said that. Personally I've yet to see or hear anything that quotes him as having said it.

I'm not disagreeing with the blog post in the slightest. Almost everything he's put in his blog is pretty much spot on, and stuff we already knew.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ukms 15 January, 2020 16:52
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
ukms
With respect you have no more idea what he said than the OP or the blogger .... As with many when it suits your discussion you are happy to believe what is quoted by the press ..... when it doesnít suit you disagree ..... canít have it both ways

Given he's provided a source, which is great, we know that the RugbyPass article used for his claim that "cuts will have to be made" clearly states in the first paragraph that EG has said it "may" need to happen. From that the blogger and numerous other articles/forum posts have taken that as an admission that the squad is over the cap. If the blogger wants to use that as a point in his blog, that EG has said cuts will need to be made, then he should use a source that actually quotes him as having said that. Personally I've yet to see or hear anything that quotes him as having said it.

I'm not disagreeing with the blog post in the slightest. Almost everything he's put in his blog is pretty much spot on, and stuff we already knew.

Fair enough ..... I agree that things have been slightly misquoted Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen smiling smiley

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
TonyTaff 16 January, 2020 16:26
The discipline, of referring only to actual quotes, would be welcome on this thread, as well as all others.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication.


(*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 16 January, 2020 19:11
Quote:
TonyTaff
The discipline, of referring only to actual quotes, would be welcome on this thread, as well as all others.

Agreed. See what I did there?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 16 January, 2020 19:52
Nigel Wray has stepped down as a director of Saracens
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWfAtWsAApBZL?format=jpg&name=large

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 16 January, 2020 20:50

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ElephantJuice 16 January, 2020 21:46
Quote:
Sarriebone
Nigel Wray has stepped down as a director of Saracens
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EObWfAtWsAApBZL?format=jpg&name=large

Is it starting to look real yet?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Wilson Pickett 16 January, 2020 22:15
duck looks swims quacks

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Paulr58 16 January, 2020 22:21
The witch hunt continues.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Wilson Pickett 16 January, 2020 22:35
aka the steady news flow continues....

Quote:

It sounds brilliant letís hope it is true - the chickens are coming home to roost

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ElephantJuice 16 January, 2020 22:38
Seriously, just look at your squad. Look at it properly, and think about it.

Look at all the other squads in the premiership or even the rest of the whole world.

Now tell me you donít see it...

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 16 January, 2020 22:41
Lots of questions at this point but again without facts and some clarity it's really hard to get and idea how much of this is reality and how much a possibility. For sure it doesn't sound good.

Having given Saracens the fine and penalty does the mechanism exist to add to that before the season ends with regards to salary compliance? The "articles" suggest it does but the last week has shown us the importance of waiting for the actual facts, even if they're bad. Have the other clubs got their way and changed the Laws mid season or is this just a different application of them that we were unaware of before?

Too many things don't make sense to me right now. Tony Rowe sorry, Owen Slot said earlier in the week that an option to give the club a 70 point penalty was not taken. Assuming that's correct what is the point in not giving the club a points ban sufficient to ensure relegation (or just outright relegating them) to instead given them an unrealistic target re balancing the books if as the articles suggest that is the issue? It seems odd to me that any severance for early termination is regarded as being in cap, on the one hand very reasonably asking/telling the club to get in cap if they are exceeding it but making doing so punitive.

Those same articles suggest that a big meeting will be held tomorrow so maybe we'll get some sort of official word from Saracens? That would be good at this stage.

Whatever happens the club will still need our support and we've got a huge game on Sunday. Regardless of what's happened before and what's still to come I will be supporting the players and coaching team come Sunday.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Saint For Life 16 January, 2020 23:00
leaving, ship, the , sinking , rats , are ?

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