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Quote:ComeOnSarries
Having watched Sarries for nearly 50 years I have some incredible memories and seen some of the world’s best players strut their stuff from Bramley Road to Allianz Park. I have along the way seen young men like Richard Hill turn into world champions.
The current Sarries team is something pretty special especially with so many having come through the Academy.
Nigel Wray has been a generous benefactor of Saracens since the dawn of professionalism and has also done a lot of good things for the local community through the school and Sport Foundation. He is also a genuinely nice person to meet.
I think however, he was naive/reckless in this matter and badly advised in recent years and it is clear that Saracens broke the salary cap rules although why it took 3 years to uncover this fact is beyond my understanding. I understand that this has damaged relationships with other clubs but for the good of the game the PRL needs to come together now and agree a reasonable way forward. Being unreasonable now could damage the reputation of rugby for years.
I remain committed to Sarries and look forward to welcoming Racing 92 tomorrow. With 2 strong teams on display and both having something to play for it should be another great day out. If we don’t want to rely on Toulouse beating Gloucester we need to get 5 points.
Quote:villagesarrie
I also have to say that the sight of the other 11 clubs and media falling on the club like a pack of feral dogs with undisguised relish , with two notable examples in particular, has disillusioned me to the point that I am not actually sure I can ever watch a rugby match again or remain involved in the sport in even a small way. We're season ticket holders and members of one of the "clubs" within Saracens and, had we been relegated (or faced relegation) for normal reasons ie we were rubbish, I would have no hesitation in remaining as such but now, I really am not sure at all.
It is very early in the morning and I do hope I feel better about it later today but right now, I am almost in tears at the thought of my beloved club in this mess.
Quote:I understand you spent 50p on shaved monkey porn. Until you prove otherwise it appears its a fact. You love shaved monkeys. Congratulations.Marlow Nick
Of course it could be a lot more than £2m. One has to wonder why Saracens allegedly refused a formal audit. More to hide?
Quote:no, he didn't actually. He still does a podcast with his array of ill gotten gains behind him maillot jaune et Al. If you are suggesting rewriting the rules after the fact you set a very dangerous precedentMrDolf
I think Sarries have had a bit of a let off. When Lance Armstrong was convicted of this behaviour he had all his medals took off him.
Quote:Bram1ey_Road
As a fifty year fan and former player, I’m still unclear as to how the tournament organisers appear to be blameless ?! For doing this midseason and so ruining their own tournament! Incompetent? Stupid? Both?
PLUS what will EJ and England Rugby do to protect their players?
Why should the National side be penalised?
Quote:plzdQuote:villagesarrie
I also have to say that the sight of the other 11 clubs and media falling on the club like a pack of feral dogs with undisguised relish , with two notable examples in particular, has disillusioned me to the point that I am not actually sure I can ever watch a rugby match again or remain involved in the sport in even a small way. We're season ticket holders and members of one of the "clubs" within Saracens and, had we been relegated (or faced relegation) for normal reasons ie we were rubbish, I would have no hesitation in remaining as such but now, I really am not sure at all.
It is very early in the morning and I do hope I feel better about it later today but right now, I am almost in tears at the thought of my beloved club in this mess.
Sorry for how you feel. I am a ST at a Prem club who has been through relegation.
That said your club has been cheating for years and everyone knew that. To me the icing on the cake was when you signed Daly. It was obvious that your club had no respect for the league it's rules or the other clubs and players and fans of those other clubs.
It was obvious that the management of your club had a total arrogance that meant they thought they could do whatever they wanted with no repercussions.
Like you I became totally disillusioned.
To the point of total disillusionment for the sport I love where I did not see the point of bothering as one club was clearly playing to a totally different set of rules than all of the others, putting those who were not cheating at a huge disadvantage.
For the 1st time in 20 years I have missed a number of home games and have not been to an away game. For the first time in as long as I can remember I did not even bother to look at the results because I had fallen out of love with a great sport in which I have had the joy of camaraderie and many a beer with rival fans in many different areas.
That is how it affected me personally.
That was MY disillusionment.
Your club was sanctioned in 2015 and show no regard for that and carried on cheating the same way unabated. As for describing others as feral dogs... what do you expect?
Should fans and players and owners of other clubs just smile and accept it? Or say " oh never mind it does not matter".
Again.
It clearly matters to you very much. You have to understand and accept that other people's clubs matter equally to them. For years I have watched a competition which was not in any way fair and in which one club, by cheating, has had a huge unfair advantage and has taken players from other clubs who may otherwise have stayed or gone on elsewhere.
I have spent thousands of pounds and countless hours travelling to watch games in a competition which has been totally corrupted up by one club's cheating.
Do I feel angry?
Yes.
The reason people are so cheesed off with Sarries as club is not because of the fans, it is because of the actions of your own club's owners who have constantly cheated and lied. They are the people responsible for your unhappiness and Sarries relegation not the fans or players of management of other clubs or the media.
For me, when I woke this morning for the first time in a long while I felt joy at going to a game. That is because I knew an element of fairness and equality had been returned.
Go to some of the away games you will meet great fans, go to great rugby grounds and enjoy the experience - I did.
Quote:myleftbootQuote:I understand you spent 50p on shaved monkey porn. Until you prove otherwise it appears its a fact. You love shaved monkeys. Congratulations.Marlow Nick
Of course it could be a lot more than £2m. One has to wonder why Saracens allegedly refused a formal audit. More to hide?
Quote:Bram1ey_Road
So I sincerely hope that one day you’ll get over yourself and realise that it’s not all about you!
Perhaps the National Team warrants a mention?
Or maybe the players??
Are you capable of wider thoughts?
Quote:Marlow Nick
Why do England warrant a mention? Do you really buy the line that England need Saracens to do their training for them?
Quote:Westy68
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?
Surely you can’t be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.
Quote:Would the National team achieved the same success without those Saracens players and coaches? or with those same Saracens players but spread over different clubs? Impossible to say for sure but pretty easy to point to the spine of the team playing together; 2, 5, 8, 10 being a major advantage for England. Ditto that those players had been exposed to the top level of domestic rugby continuously. Add to that that Saracens effectively sub teams like Wasps who provide little or no National talent in addition to losing out in cap allocation by having Internationals and I think you can see there are some issues.
Quote:blackheath
You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.
Quote:ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you can’t accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRL’s own admission.
I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.
Quote:BlackheathSarrieQuote:Westy68
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?
Surely you can’t be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?
Simple answer seems to be yes. Unless further issues come to light I believe that the relegation confirmed yesterday is the punishment given ahead of time after the realisation that the club will be over cap come the end of the year.
My theory, but I have no facts, is that PRLs own rules make cap compliance very hard in this scenario. Terminated contracts (with possible attached severance) are counted in the cap so it actually costs you to cut cap which is madness. As an example. Say that Saracens were £500K over cap and Player A is on £500K even in the best case scenario where he is out of contract at the end of the season paying him £500K to terminate his contract and so make him unavailable to the club for this season would still result in his salary being on the books so you'd have lost a player but still be over. If he has a two season contract you may need to find £1M or a % thereof. So you'd be releasing a player from the squad to becomes cap compliant and end up being even more over the cap.
In this scenario the only viable solutions to get in cap this season seem to be terminating contracts of injured players in agreement with them and the insurance company. Tricky if the player doesn't actually want to retire unless they are happy to do a Steve Thompson and return the insurance money if they start playing again? Loaning players out as injury cover to other clubs who would then pick up the salaries, again you'd need the players agreement. Having players loaned or signed for other clubs mid season obviously need players agreement and as importantly the other club need cap allowance (anyone else interested in Jamie Roberts, one of Baths most expensive players, signing for a SA club mid season?) Lastly an option for the players, some or all, to take a salary reduction. This is the option I am a bit surprised hasn't happened but tbf there are ongoing talks with the players and they may also be disillusioned by the current state of affairs.
So it can actually be quite hard to cut cap mid season.
My guess is PRLs feeling is whilst Saracens squad will remain over cap it will effect the league equally? and as Saracens no longer have anything to gain from this season in the Premiership it shouldn't unbalance things too much. That's my take although it may not be right.
Quote:ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you can’t accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRL’s own admission.
I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.
Quote:Roger G
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.
Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.
Quote:ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you can’t accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRL’s own admission.
I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.
Quote:Roger G
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.
Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.
Whoever came up with that figure, and the deadline to prove meeting it, will have know it was impossible without infringing contract and employment law, or major players volunteering to leave (why would they). So, as it was an impossible task, I can understand why Sarries would decline to engage with the other demands (e.g. forensic audit) with no hope of a better outcome. Hopefully with relegation, and a year or two (or more, or maybe for ever) outside the prem, and with the chance to build a completetly new, and palpable "clean" management team, Sarries can rejoin the fold with a clean slate as and when (and if) performances and admin hurdles allow.
Quote:Florida
oaning players out isn't an option, you can loan 3 and you have to inform the salary cap manager within 28 days of the start of the season.
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
I note for all the huffing and puffing from them they are retaining Williams just as they did with Nowell, Slade and LCD when they said they wouldn't be able to keep them all in cap. Which big players or England Internationals have left them in recent seasons? So they have seemingly done something similar legally.
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.
Quote:fatheraliceQuote:BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.
You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.
Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.
Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.
Quote:fatheraliceQuote:BlackheathSarrie
... You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works ...
You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.
Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.
Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off.
Quote:Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?
Quote:Poking With SticksQuote:BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off.
It's hard to discuss this without hard facts, but Farrell's salary has been quoted at £750K. If that's the case then it is £100Ks off.
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?
Quote:SarrieboneQuote:fatheraliceQuote:BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.
You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.
Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.
Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.
Right back at you, Hogg isn't elligible to be the First excluded player under 3.3 (I) until he's been at the club for 2yrs.
A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:
(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or
(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B ) has only been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or
(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.
Quote:Sarriebone
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
Are you seriously using Farrell as your basis for comparison?
Quote:Look at the two hookers for comparison as one is a starter and one the bench. Are you really suggesting that when LCD renewed (at the same time as Nowell and Slade only the former of whom was a regular International) that he accepted a salary of £2-300K? Or that guys like Francis, Moon, Williams etc are earning £300K or less. I guess it's possible but it seems both unlikely and out of line with other salaries that have been made public.
Quote:LutonS
Was it my imagination or did Smally say the requested audit was to go back 10 years? In his BT interview bith Martin Bayfield pre game.
Quote:BlackheathSarrieQuote:Sarriebone
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]
Thanks for the correction Sarriebone. Last QF I was at was Saints a few years ago and all I remember was we didn't need the expanded capacity as we'd played them like 6 times that season already and everyone was thoroughly bored of the fixture. I hadn't appreciated that it had changed and responded to a report in a paper saying "despite Sandy Park capacity being 13500 or something they would be allowed to hold the QF there with no expansion.
Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.
Quote:BlackheathSarrie
Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.