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Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
fatheralice 18 January, 2020 21:48
Quote:
ComeOnSarries
Having watched Sarries for nearly 50 years I have some incredible memories and seen some of the worldís best players strut their stuff from Bramley Road to Allianz Park. I have along the way seen young men like Richard Hill turn into world champions.
The current Sarries team is something pretty special especially with so many having come through the Academy.

Nigel Wray has been a generous benefactor of Saracens since the dawn of professionalism and has also done a lot of good things for the local community through the school and Sport Foundation. He is also a genuinely nice person to meet.

I think however, he was naive/reckless in this matter and badly advised in recent years and it is clear that Saracens broke the salary cap rules although why it took 3 years to uncover this fact is beyond my understanding. I understand that this has damaged relationships with other clubs but for the good of the game the PRL needs to come together now and agree a reasonable way forward. Being unreasonable now could damage the reputation of rugby for years.

I remain committed to Sarries and look forward to welcoming Racing 92 tomorrow. With 2 strong teams on display and both having something to play for it should be another great day out. If we donít want to rely on Toulouse beating Gloucester we need to get 5 points.

That is what happened the last time you were caught (along with some others), and the whole lot swept under the carpet, with the Chairmen agreeing to all play by the rules thereafter. 12 seemed to have done that by and large, 1 very much didn't.

This is on Wray - he ran out of trust and friends in the game, and tried to bully his way out of it. Any unreasonableness on behalf of PRL is down to that history.

Unreasonableness of the PRL is a interesting way to put it

But come one ďcomeonsarrriesĒ wake up the other club chairmen were reasonable in 2013 when Sarries were first caught out despite their fans wanting a harder punishment the chairs agreed to a deal to sweep things under the carpet.

Since then Sarries have taken the Michael and treated other clubs and fans with disdain and arrogance.

You suggest the need for a reasonable way forward. But again it seems that Sarries are given that and were requested to get into the regulation cap by end of Jan and to allow a full audit

That seemed like a very reasonable way forward -
Simply comply with the rules and prove it

Sadly Sarries were unable to do that and we are now where we are

The only way forward is for Sarries to come clean, fully disclose all payments and allow a full external audit.

It seems they refused they are still refusing that reasonable request and have done nothing to address the requests of other clubs.

So why should everyone allow this to be swept under the carport ?

You ask for a reasonable outcome that is either

1) Sarries agree to and stick to the regulations and allow a full audit to prove it

2) you refuse and take the e the medicine they deserve an go bankrupt and start again in the lowest league

Sorry but the ball is clearly in Sarries court so instead of asking why are you victimised ask why did your club not stick to the rules or take the chance when it was given

Wray is a cancer to rugby and a cancer to what used to be a decent club WAKE UP

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
plzd 18 January, 2020 23:42
Quote:
villagesarrie
I also have to say that the sight of the other 11 clubs and media falling on the club like a pack of feral dogs with undisguised relish , with two notable examples in particular, has disillusioned me to the point that I am not actually sure I can ever watch a rugby match again or remain involved in the sport in even a small way. We're season ticket holders and members of one of the "clubs" within Saracens and, had we been relegated (or faced relegation) for normal reasons ie we were rubbish, I would have no hesitation in remaining as such but now, I really am not sure at all.
It is very early in the morning and I do hope I feel better about it later today but right now, I am almost in tears at the thought of my beloved club in this mess.

Sorry for how you feel. I am a ST at a Prem club who has been through relegation.

That said your club has been cheating for years and everyone knew that. To me the icing on the cake was when you signed Daly. It was obvious that your club had no respect for the league it's rules or the other clubs and players and fans of those other clubs.

It was obvious that the management of your club had a total arrogance that meant they thought they could do whatever they wanted with no repercussions.

Like you I became totally disillusioned.

To the point of total disillusionment for the sport I love where I did not see the point of bothering as one club was clearly playing to a totally different set of rules than all of the others, putting those who were not cheating at a huge disadvantage.

For the 1st time in 20 years I have missed a number of home games and have not been to an away game. For the first time in as long as I can remember I did not even bother to look at the results because I had fallen out of love with a great sport in which I have had the joy of camaraderie and many a beer with rival fans in many different areas.

That is how it affected me personally.

That was MY disillusionment.

Your club was sanctioned in 2015 and show no regard for that and carried on cheating the same way unabated. As for describing others as feral dogs... what do you expect?

Should fans and players and owners of other clubs just smile and accept it? Or say " oh never mind it does not matter".

Again.

It clearly matters to you very much. You have to understand and accept that other people's clubs matter equally to them. For years I have watched a competition which was not in any way fair and in which one club, by cheating, has had a huge unfair advantage and has taken players from other clubs who may otherwise have stayed or gone on elsewhere.

I have spent thousands of pounds and countless hours travelling to watch games in a competition which has been totally corrupted up by one club's cheating.

Do I feel angry?

Yes.

The reason people are so cheesed off with Sarries as club is not because of the fans, it is because of the actions of your own club's owners who have constantly cheated and lied. They are the people responsible for your unhappiness and Sarries relegation not the fans or players of management of other clubs or the media.

For me, when I woke this morning for the first time in a long while I felt joy at going to a game. That is because I knew an element of fairness and equality had been returned.

Go to some of the away games you will meet great fans, go to great rugby grounds and enjoy the experience - I did.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
myleftboot 19 January, 2020 02:05
Quote:
Marlow Nick
Of course it could be a lot more than £2m. One has to wonder why Saracens allegedly refused a formal audit. More to hide?
I understand you spent 50p on shaved monkey porn. Until you prove otherwise it appears its a fact. You love shaved monkeys. Congratulations.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
myleftboot 19 January, 2020 02:30
Quote:
MrDolf
I think Sarries have had a bit of a let off. When Lance Armstrong was convicted of this behaviour he had all his medals took off him.
no, he didn't actually. He still does a podcast with his array of ill gotten gains behind him maillot jaune et Al. If you are suggesting rewriting the rules after the fact you set a very dangerous precedent

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Bram1ey_Road 19 January, 2020 06:55
As a fifty year fan and former player, Iím still unclear as to how the tournament organisers appear to be blameless ?! For doing this midseason and so ruining their own tournament! Incompetent? Stupid? Both?
PLUS what will EJ and England Rugby do to protect their players?
Why should the National side be penalised?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Bram1ey_Road 19 January, 2020 07:06
Excellent points. Thanks

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Bram1ey_Road 19 January, 2020 07:13
If heís s cancer why does he fund a secondary school?

Quote:
Bram1ey_Road
As a fifty year fan and former player, Iím still unclear as to how the tournament organisers appear to be blameless ?! For doing this midseason and so ruining their own tournament! Incompetent? Stupid? Both?
PLUS what will EJ and England Rugby do to protect their players?
Why should the National side be penalised?

Oh for goodness sake. It is because Sarries did not stick to the deal struck when the fine was imposed and refused to go open book.

Surely it is better now than at the end of the season when you may have ďescapedĒ relegation in the table and then have the additional penalty. How would that have felt ?

It is Sarries have ruined the season by their cheating and refusal to go open book. So much for ďintegrityĒ and ďhonestyĒ

When the club have done nothing to address the problem why should the PL put up with it ?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Bram1ey_Road 19 January, 2020 07:22
Quote:
plzd
Quote:
villagesarrie
I also have to say that the sight of the other 11 clubs and media falling on the club like a pack of feral dogs with undisguised relish , with two notable examples in particular, has disillusioned me to the point that I am not actually sure I can ever watch a rugby match again or remain involved in the sport in even a small way. We're season ticket holders and members of one of the "clubs" within Saracens and, had we been relegated (or faced relegation) for normal reasons ie we were rubbish, I would have no hesitation in remaining as such but now, I really am not sure at all.
It is very early in the morning and I do hope I feel better about it later today but right now, I am almost in tears at the thought of my beloved club in this mess.

Sorry for how you feel. I am a ST at a Prem club who has been through relegation.

That said your club has been cheating for years and everyone knew that. To me the icing on the cake was when you signed Daly. It was obvious that your club had no respect for the league it's rules or the other clubs and players and fans of those other clubs.

It was obvious that the management of your club had a total arrogance that meant they thought they could do whatever they wanted with no repercussions.

Like you I became totally disillusioned.

To the point of total disillusionment for the sport I love where I did not see the point of bothering as one club was clearly playing to a totally different set of rules than all of the others, putting those who were not cheating at a huge disadvantage.

For the 1st time in 20 years I have missed a number of home games and have not been to an away game. For the first time in as long as I can remember I did not even bother to look at the results because I had fallen out of love with a great sport in which I have had the joy of camaraderie and many a beer with rival fans in many different areas.

That is how it affected me personally.

That was MY disillusionment.

Your club was sanctioned in 2015 and show no regard for that and carried on cheating the same way unabated. As for describing others as feral dogs... what do you expect?

Should fans and players and owners of other clubs just smile and accept it? Or say " oh never mind it does not matter".

Again.

It clearly matters to you very much. You have to understand and accept that other people's clubs matter equally to them. For years I have watched a competition which was not in any way fair and in which one club, by cheating, has had a huge unfair advantage and has taken players from other clubs who may otherwise have stayed or gone on elsewhere.

I have spent thousands of pounds and countless hours travelling to watch games in a competition which has been totally corrupted up by one club's cheating.

Do I feel angry?

Yes.

The reason people are so cheesed off with Sarries as club is not because of the fans, it is because of the actions of your own club's owners who have constantly cheated and lied. They are the people responsible for your unhappiness and Sarries relegation not the fans or players of management of other clubs or the media.

For me, when I woke this morning for the first time in a long while I felt joy at going to a game. That is because I knew an element of fairness and equality had been returned.

Go to some of the away games you will meet great fans, go to great rugby grounds and enjoy the experience - I did.

So I sincerely hope that one day youíll get over yourself and realise that itís not all about you!
Perhaps the National Team warrants a mention?
Or maybe the players??
Are you capable of wider thoughts?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Marlow Nick 19 January, 2020 07:46
Quote:
myleftboot
Quote:
Marlow Nick
Of course it could be a lot more than £2m. One has to wonder why Saracens allegedly refused a formal audit. More to hide?
I understand you spent 50p on shaved monkey porn. Until you prove otherwise it appears its a fact. You love shaved monkeys. Congratulations.

I am happy for you to send auditors to review my porn collection. I'm confident that they will find all the monkeys are suitably hirsute. Now why won't Saracens allow scrutiny of their accounts?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Marlow Nick 19 January, 2020 08:03
Quote:
Bram1ey_Road
So I sincerely hope that one day youíll get over yourself and realise that itís not all about you!
Perhaps the National Team warrants a mention?
Or maybe the players??
Are you capable of wider thoughts?

Wow! Sounds like you still think there's something special about Saracens.

Perhaps you should recognise it's not all about you. Saracens cheating has hurt every club and every fan. Yes you are hurting. Join the club. We've all been hurting for 5 years.

Why do England warrant a mention? Do you really buy the line that England need Saracens to do their training for them? In the long term a truly competitive league with the best players spread around will lead to more players competing in Europe and getting exposure to the highest standards. In the short term the RFU will adjust their self imposed rules to allow them use any players they want even if they move overseas

I have sympathy for the lower paid players and those still in your academy who may be locked into contracts that force them to stay. The high profile players who have been paid above market rates and accepted dodgy below the table deals without declaring them? They will be fine. Saracens need to shed them next year to fit in the cap. They are good players so they will be in demand. Maybe they will only be paid normal salaries next year but that's still a good wage.

What are your wider thoughts?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 08:25
plzd I think you make some valid points and I hope that the new Saracens free league gives you the convenience in its fairness and joy that you have been missing. I also hope that if/when Saracens come back up they can operate on under those same rules and you may even be able to enjoy seeing them play in the same league or at least not have it make you understandably unhappy. All the best for next season.

Quote:
Marlow Nick
Why do England warrant a mention? Do you really buy the line that England need Saracens to do their training for them?

You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.

Would the National team achieved the same success without those Saracens players and coaches? or with those same Saracens players but spread over different clubs? Impossible to say for sure but pretty easy to point to the spine of the team playing together; 2, 5, 8, 10 being a major advantage for England. Ditto that those players had been exposed to the top level of domestic rugby continuously. Add to that that Saracens effectively sub teams like Wasps who provide little or no National talent in addition to losing out in cap allocation by having Internationals and I think you can see there are some issues.

None of that makes the cheating alright but I'd hope that it's something that's looked at as well as it is actively discouraging the promotion and retention of EQP International talent right now.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Westy68 19 January, 2020 08:30
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?

Surely you canít be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?

This is a genuine question as I donít the answer, not sure anyone knows the answer.

I also would like to say to the Saracens supporters who are truly upset with what Sarries have done. You have my Sympathy as this cannot be easy for you.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 08:51
Quote:
Westy68
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?
Surely you canít be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?

Simple answer seems to be yes. Unless further issues come to light I believe that the relegation confirmed yesterday is the punishment given ahead of time after the realisation that the club will be over cap come the end of the year.

My theory, but I have no facts, is that PRLs own rules make cap compliance very hard in this scenario. Terminated contracts (with possible attached severance) are counted in the cap so it actually costs you to cut cap which is madness. As an example. Say that Saracens were £500K over cap and Player A is on £500K even in the best case scenario where he is out of contract at the end of the season paying him £500K to terminate his contract and so make him unavailable to the club for this season would still result in his salary being on the books so you'd have lost a player but still be over. If he has a two season contract you may need to find £1M or a % thereof. So you'd be releasing a player from the squad to becomes cap compliant and end up being even more over the cap.

In this scenario the only viable solutions to get in cap this season seem to be terminating contracts of injured players in agreement with them and the insurance company. Tricky if the player doesn't actually want to retire unless they are happy to do a Steve Thompson and return the insurance money if they start playing again? Loaning players out as injury cover to other clubs who would then pick up the salaries, again you'd need the players agreement. Having players loaned or signed for other clubs mid season obviously need players agreement and as importantly the other club need cap allowance (anyone else interested in Jamie Roberts, one of Baths most expensive players, signing for a SA club mid season?) Lastly an option for the players, some or all, to take a salary reduction. This is the option I am a bit surprised hasn't happened but tbf there are ongoing talks with the players and they may also be disillusioned by the current state of affairs.

So it can actually be quite hard to cut cap mid season.
My guess is PRLs feeling is whilst Saracens squad will remain over cap it will effect the league equally? and as Saracens no longer have anything to gain from this season in the Premiership it shouldn't unbalance things too much. That's my take although it may not be right.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Vespulavulgaris 19 January, 2020 09:12
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.

I think you have this the wrong way round. You should be asking why it is that one club has been providing most of the England set-up. Why were they in the position to be able to do that? What was the wider impact of that on the game as a whole? And did it help us win the World Cup? Then ask yourself why it is that other clubs have felt the need to take such actions in order to feel they have a chance of being able to compete.

Quote:
Would the National team achieved the same success without those Saracens players and coaches? or with those same Saracens players but spread over different clubs? Impossible to say for sure but pretty easy to point to the spine of the team playing together; 2, 5, 8, 10 being a major advantage for England. Ditto that those players had been exposed to the top level of domestic rugby continuously. Add to that that Saracens effectively sub teams like Wasps who provide little or no National talent in addition to losing out in cap allocation by having Internationals and I think you can see there are some issues.

This feels very much like saying that because a team we all support benefited from Sarrie's cheating then we should accept it. I'd argue the very opposite.

This situation has tainted not just Sarries and the leagues they play in, but also the national team and all the success they have had over the last half decade or so. If it means we have to step backwards in order to rebuild then I'm ok with that.

I would much rather watch England lose than know they won because they benefited from cheating. This is a scandal that has poisoned the game and has to be addressed root and branch.

As to the comment about Sarries subbing Wasps it feels a little harsh when players like Loz, Billy, and Daly came through our ranks only to end up playing for you. If the rumours are to be believed then it was only club loyalty that stopped you signing Launchbury as well.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ComeOnSarries 19 January, 2020 10:20
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Roger G 19 January, 2020 10:33
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.

Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.

Whoever came up with that figure, and the deadline to prove meeting it, will have know it was impossible without infringing contract and employment law, or major players volunteering to leave (why would they). So, as it was an impossible task, I can understand why Sarries would decline to engage with the other demands (e.g. forensic audit) with no hope of a better outcome. Hopefully with relegation, and a year or two (or more, or maybe for ever) outside the prem, and with the chance to build a completetly new, and palpable "clean" management team, Sarries can rejoin the fold with a clean slate as and when (and if) performances and admin hurdles allow.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Marlow Nick 19 January, 2020 10:35
Quote:
blackheath
You've not been following closely if you don't appreciate that Jones "success" has been built on Saracens players and especially in the early seasons on their coaching and staff. How many Wasps or other clubs coaches have the RFU employed at senior level over the last four seasons? with Saracens I believe its four for the England EPS level alone. Both Saints and Chiefs have served the RFU with "hand off" warnings about their promising coaches.

I think I've been consistent in commending the quality of Saracens coaching and the clubs commitment to invest in facilities, support etc. The original poster appeared to be claiming that Saracen's fall will have a significant negative impact on England's future and seemed to imply that this somehow excuses what has been done. I disagree on both counts. England will do just fine. There is no excuse.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
ukms 19 January, 2020 10:36
Quote:
ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

You might be missing the point and perhaps still in a state of partial denial ....If Sarries were over the cap last season and nothing changes in the squad itís then highly likely they are still over .... why shouldnít they be subject of an audit or be punished ?

As for the co investments .... do you seriously believe this is the only reason Sarries were over ? If it was you wouldnít be playing in the championship next season.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Florida 19 January, 2020 10:43
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Quote:
Westy68
If Saracens are above the salary cap this season, why are they still allowed to keep the squad for the rest of the season?
Surely you canít be allowed to continue to play an illegal team. Will penalties for next season be placed on Saracens if nothing is done for the rest of the season?

Simple answer seems to be yes. Unless further issues come to light I believe that the relegation confirmed yesterday is the punishment given ahead of time after the realisation that the club will be over cap come the end of the year.

My theory, but I have no facts, is that PRLs own rules make cap compliance very hard in this scenario. Terminated contracts (with possible attached severance) are counted in the cap so it actually costs you to cut cap which is madness. As an example. Say that Saracens were £500K over cap and Player A is on £500K even in the best case scenario where he is out of contract at the end of the season paying him £500K to terminate his contract and so make him unavailable to the club for this season would still result in his salary being on the books so you'd have lost a player but still be over. If he has a two season contract you may need to find £1M or a % thereof. So you'd be releasing a player from the squad to becomes cap compliant and end up being even more over the cap.

In this scenario the only viable solutions to get in cap this season seem to be terminating contracts of injured players in agreement with them and the insurance company. Tricky if the player doesn't actually want to retire unless they are happy to do a Steve Thompson and return the insurance money if they start playing again? Loaning players out as injury cover to other clubs who would then pick up the salaries, again you'd need the players agreement. Having players loaned or signed for other clubs mid season obviously need players agreement and as importantly the other club need cap allowance (anyone else interested in Jamie Roberts, one of Baths most expensive players, signing for a SA club mid season?) Lastly an option for the players, some or all, to take a salary reduction. This is the option I am a bit surprised hasn't happened but tbf there are ongoing talks with the players and they may also be disillusioned by the current state of affairs.

So it can actually be quite hard to cut cap mid season.
My guess is PRLs feeling is whilst Saracens squad will remain over cap it will effect the league equally? and as Saracens no longer have anything to gain from this season in the Premiership it shouldn't unbalance things too much. That's my take although it may not be right.

Players signing for other clubs mid season would have worked, but doesn't sound like any clubs had space / were willing to take them in. Loaning players out isn't an option, you can loan 3 and you have to inform the salary cap manager within 28 days of the start of the season.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Florida 19 January, 2020 10:48
Quote:
ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

PRL aren't changing their process mid season.

Section 4.9 subsection a of this year's regs states the SCM can, at any time, instruct the investigators to conduct an audit if they suspect a breach.

I would assume the other clubs haven't given them reason to suspect s breach and so they have no reason to start an audit.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 19 January, 2020 10:49
Quote:
Roger G
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.
Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.

My best guess would be that it could potentially be the investments/loans that haven't been paid back yet. £650k x 3yrs, unable to wrap up the investments quickly enough to satisfy the other shareholder's demands of cutting back that amount by the end of the months leaves us in the situation we're in. As I said only a guess though

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 11:07
[quote Vespulavulgaris]
I think you have this the wrong way round. You should be asking why it is that one club has been providing most of the England set-up. Why were they in the position to be able to do that? What was the wider impact of that on the game as a whole? And did it help us win the World Cup?[quote Vespulavulgaris]

We didn't win the RWC so no but for me it's pretty clear to see how it has benefited England. You say you'd prefer that not to be the case.
As to the rest historically a few teams have always supplied the bulk of the England squad whether that's been Leicester, Wasps, Bath, etc there's an obvious benefit of picking players and units that are familiar with each other. Traditionally I'd guess one (or a few) clubs provide the talent because they success tends to attract success and good coaching even if the club isn't cheating. Looks at the successful Leicester or Wasps squad and their Internationals and how they kept them for the duration of their golden years without any cap issues? Better management or has there always been an issue at the top of the game?
If Jones was a different, better? selector the England team could easily have had 7 or 8 Chiefs in it over the past seasons, I think they had 6 at one point? Would that have been wrong too if they were keeping them legally? I note for all the huffing and puffing from them they are retaining Williams just as they did with Nowell, Slade and LCD when they said they wouldn't be able to keep them all in cap. Which big players or England Internationals have left them in recent seasons? So they have seemingly done something similar legally. Sarries brought most of their players through from Academy or as talented young players from other clubs like yourselves. If they have invested 5 plus seasons in developing them why should they have to move them onto other clubs? A proper EPS payment would mean they or any other team wouldn't have to.

[quote Vespulavulgaris]Then ask yourself why it is that other clubs have felt the need to take such actions in order to feel they have a chance of being able to compete[/quote]
Sorry I don't understand that.

This feels very much like saying that because a team we all support benefited from Sarrie's cheating then we should accept it. I'd argue the very opposite[/quote]
I don't know if you read my whole post but I made it pretty clear that it isn't about legitimising or balancing cheating but rather saying that in my opinion it is something the National team have benefited from but also that it is an issue going forward if your International team is going to be drawn significantly from a couple or maybe three teams as has been the case historically.

[quote Vespulavulgaris]the comment about Sarries subbing Wasps it feels a little harsh when players like Loz, Billy, and Daly came through our ranks only to end up playing for you. If the rumours are to be believed then it was only club loyalty that stopped you signing Launchbury as well.[/quote]
I highly doubt the Launchbury rumour and whilst I appreciate Wasps have lost significant players to Saracens and that must hurt I honestly think you're deluding yourself if you think either of Lozo or Daly would have stayed at Wasps. If it wasn't Sarries it would have been someone else. If that's too blunt for you then take a club that Sarries haven't recruited a player from recently who are providing no or few Internationals and ask why they, or Leicester or Quins in recent seasons should sub them?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Chris1850 19 January, 2020 11:34
Quote:
ComeOnSarries
If PRL believe it necessary to change their agreed processes and insist on a forensic audit mid season for Saracens then surely that request should be put out to all 12 teams in the current Premiership. This is a much higher standard than the other clubs have to comply with and I think it highly probable that a number of clubs (including Saracens) would fail it.
The one thing you canít accuse Saracens of doing is trying to hide their benefits as co-investment companies were established in the U.K. with full disclosure and transparent names at Companies House. Somebody deliberately trying to breach the rules would be considerably more careful with for example off book payments to a Delaware company. At present we can have little confidence that any of the clubs fully comply with the Salary Cap as the Salary Cap Manager in arrears is clearly not sufficient by the PRLís own admission.

I would argue that the PRL is now bringing the game into disrepute in the amateurish way it is handling the failings of Saracens.

If Saracens are so open and honest, how come they have refused to submit their books to a full audit, preferring to take relegation instead? If they are genuinely remorseful as they now claim to be, they should be completely open and honest with the PRL. Yet still they refuse. What are others to think? Given the blatant cheating that has already been exposed, by refusing to open the books they simply leave themselves open to further speculation and allegations.

Genuine Sarries supporters deserve much better. Whatever good Wray may have done over the years in the community etc, his legacy is not only tainted, it is now positively foul and for the good of the club and the game in general, he should quit straight away.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Gray_Lensman 19 January, 2020 11:35
Surprising as it may seem a lot of supporters of club rugby aren't that interested in national sides and their club comes first.

People who support other clubs who complied with the rules that Saracens signed up to and then flouted are rightly angry at the way Saracens' management behaved. Most have sympathy for the supporters who were lied to in exactly the same way as everyone else was lied to. Where they struggle is with the idea that somehow there is a vendetta against Saracens based on jealousy. I understand the desire to circle the wagons and lash out. I really do. But the source of all this mess rests with the management, not other supporters, not other clubs, not PRL (although it's hardly covered itself in glory). Supporters' ire should be directed at the club's management who have abused your trust

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sans Culottes 19 January, 2020 11:56
Quote:
Roger G
Sadly I feel the need to preface this post with a statement that I am a sorely let-down Sarries supporter, angry with our management for many reasons, not just the SC stuff, and am in no way an apologist for the club.
Does anybody know where this £2m figure came from? The fine (based on the widely published SC ruules formula) suggested an overspend of around £650k per year or maybe £1m if only spread over 2 of the last 3 years. So many people seem to know so many details of our offence that I can't find online, I'm sure one or more of them will know where the £2m came from.



Whoever came up with that figure, and the deadline to prove meeting it, will have know it was impossible without infringing contract and employment law, or major players volunteering to leave (why would they). So, as it was an impossible task, I can understand why Sarries would decline to engage with the other demands (e.g. forensic audit) with no hope of a better outcome. Hopefully with relegation, and a year or two (or more, or maybe for ever) outside the prem, and with the chance to build a completetly new, and palpable "clean" management team, Sarries can rejoin the fold with a clean slate as and when (and if) performances and admin hurdles allow.

Perhaps those that set the deadline did so in the belief that Nigel was telling the truth when he says Sarries were compliant this season ?

You canít have it both ways

We comply, therefore no problem.

Oh no we donít, so you canít set a potentially impossible deadline.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 15:51
Quote:
Florida
oaning players out isn't an option, you can loan 3 and you have to inform the salary cap manager within 28 days of the start of the season.

Thanks for the clarification.
Do you know when the PRL vote changed from unanimous to majority? Its not been the case before now afaik.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Poking With Sticks 19 January, 2020 16:19
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
I note for all the huffing and puffing from them they are retaining Williams just as they did with Nowell, Slade and LCD when they said they wouldn't be able to keep them all in cap. Which big players or England Internationals have left them in recent seasons? So they have seemingly done something similar legally.

The thing is, Exeter haven't had any nailed on starters. Look at just the recent England reps for each team. Nailed on starters in bold:

Sarries: Mako, Billy, Itoje, Kruis, Spencer, Wigglesworth, Daly, Lozowski, Farrell, George, Singleton, Isiekwe.
Exeter: LCD, Slade, Nowell, Williams, Hepburn, Moon, Simmonds, Armand, Maunder, Devoto.

You could make an argument for bolding LCD on the bench. The likes of Isiekwe, Maunder, Armand, Singleton and Devoto are irrelevant to the discussion - they have one or two caps and that won't inflate their worth much. Nowell and Slade signed new deals in 2018 reported in local press as being £350K and £450K respectively. Being a potential England start makes you more expensive, but not in the league of a first on the team-sheet, world class player.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 16:34
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
fatheralice 19 January, 2020 16:49
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 19 January, 2020 17:06
Quote:
fatheralice
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Right back at you, Hogg isn't elligible to be the First excluded player under 3.3 (I) until he's been at the club for 2yrs.

A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:

(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or

(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B ) has only been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or

(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/01/2020 17:30 by Sarriebone.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 17:21
Quote:
fatheralice
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
... You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works ...

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Well certainly one of us looks foolish. I think we might differ on which ...

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Poking With Sticks 19 January, 2020 17:27
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off.

It's hard to discuss this without hard facts, but Farrell's salary has been quoted at £750K. If that's the case then it is £100Ks off.

Quote:
Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

Not sure what to make of this. If both parties agree to it I don't see the problem.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 17:43
Quote:
Poking With Sticks
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off.

It's hard to discuss this without hard facts, but Farrell's salary has been quoted at £750K. If that's the case then it is £100Ks off.

Are you seriously using Farrell as your basis for comparison?
Look at the two hookers for comparison as one is a starter and one the bench. Are you really suggesting that when LCD renewed (at the same time as Nowell and Slade only the former of whom was a regular International) that he accepted a salary of £2-300K? Or that guys like Francis, Moon, Williams etc are earning £300K or less. I guess it's possible but it seems both unlikely and out of line with other salaries that have been made public.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
EXDJ 19 January, 2020 17:54
If it helps:
- Slade is apparently (according to a list of highest paid Prem players) on £450k, Hogg £400k (and Nowell £350k).
- Slade is likely to be marquee player 1, Hogg marquee player 2 (has to come from outside the Prem)
- Hogg probably took a marquee slot from Nic White (assume £300-350k) so Whiteís salary would have counted towards the cap this season
- White is off to Oz, so that frees up a chunk of cap allowance for Gray who will probably be on a similar amount (Greg Holmes is also off (retiring) and as a former international tighthead will have been on ok money)

This is all the usual juggling that goes on to stay compliant. Given Exeter had only 6 players in the recent World Cup, it is probably safe to say that Exeter is not full of current internationals, who would typically command a premium. Sarries had 16 involved (although Figallo might have been injured after being named in the squad).

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Gaz 19 January, 2020 18:06
Tigers fan in peace.

Just to say that I admire the Saracens fans' quiet dignity in the face of some unwarranted trolling.

The people at the top of your club who perpetrated the salary cap breaches, and those who knew and allowed it to happen, are worthy of our contempt.

The fans, who have been shafted by their club, are not.

Hope next season heralds a new start for Saracens, and I look forward to seeing you at Welford Road in years to come.



Threatened by shadows at night,
And exposed in the light.
Shine on you crazy diamond.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Exeforever 19 January, 2020 20:13
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie

Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

Quote from the "Key rules" for this season's Heineken Cup:

2.4 The clubs ranked 1 to 4 will have home advantage for the quarter-finals as follows:...

No mention of capacity. Anecdotally it is believed that had Exeter been facing an Irish side then the game would have had to be played in a larger stadium to accommodate the away supporters but as it is Northampton it can be played at Sandy Park. Last season's Prem S/F was played to a full house but we have expanded since then.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sarriebone 19 January, 2020 20:19
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
EXDJ 19 January, 2020 20:28
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie

Interesting that the EPCR are allowing you to play your QF at home despite not having a suitable size venue. Quite an allowance to make. For a club who are all about playing to the rules I'm guessing you'll be refusing?

The strict 15k capacity rule was dropped a couple of years ago. Saracens played Glasgow in the 2017 QF and had to get in extra seating to meet the requirement. Attendance was nearly 15,000. Fast forward a couple of years and when Sarries played Glasgow in the 2019 QF, EPCR confirmed that Sarries didnít need to get extra seating. So the match attendance was 11,000. Surely you noticed that AZP was hosting these games?

There are quite a few complaints about other fans coming onto the Sarries board. Maybe we could all cut down on baseless innuendo?

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
fatheralice 19 January, 2020 20:55
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
fatheralice
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Its a point with some validity but as an England 23 player your value is going to be in line with that of a starter. It isn't going to be £100Ks off. You also seem to be adding Gray as your International Marquee next season despite already having Hogg on £500K in that role this season. I'll be interested to see how that works.
The salaries of Hogg, Nowell and Slade suggest that there's no allowance being made for joining a club with Chiefs prospects, with great coaches and in a nice location. Those are at least normal market rates, Slade arguably looking pretty generous.
It makes one reflect on the pay given to the rest of the squad. Let me be clear I am not for one second suggesting anything is going on at Chiefs but I am suggesting that you can assemble what looks an unnaturally strong team and it be legal. Also that you can concentrate talent.

You do know how the TWO excluded player slots work, don't you? Must say it very much appears NOT from the above.

Gray will be the 2nd Excluded player, as he is new to the premiership. Hogg can then move to the first excluded player slot.

Seriously, do yourself a favour and read the regulations. You look foolish.

Right back at you, Hogg isn't elligible to be the First excluded player under 3.3 (I) until he's been at the club for 2yrs.

A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:

(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or

(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B ) has only been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or

(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.

I take full responsibility for my administrative error, and with humility must accept the embarrassment that now comes.
My post was made in good faith, but perhaps said the wrong thing for the right reasons, but it is important to stress that it was not deliberate. I will be adopting robust governance measures for any future postings.

(Sm133)

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
LutonS 19 January, 2020 21:37
Was it my imagination or did Smally say the requested audit was to go back 10 years? In his BT interview bith Martin Bayfield pre game.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Chris1850 19 January, 2020 21:37
Well done fatheralice. Takes class to eat humble pie and admit you were wrong........

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
BlackheathSarrie 19 January, 2020 22:49
Quote:
Sarriebone
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Thanks for the correction Sarriebone. Last QF I was at was Saints a few years ago and all I remember was we didn't need the expanded capacity as we'd played them like 6 times that season already and everyone was thoroughly bored of the fixture. I hadn't appreciated that it had changed and responded to a report in a paper saying "despite Sandy Park capacity being 13500 or something they would be allowed to hold the QF there with no expansion.

Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Poking With Sticks 19 January, 2020 23:10
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Are you seriously using Farrell as your basis for comparison?

Well...yes. He's almost certainly one of our highest paid players.

Quote:
Look at the two hookers for comparison as one is a starter and one the bench. Are you really suggesting that when LCD renewed (at the same time as Nowell and Slade only the former of whom was a regular International) that he accepted a salary of £2-300K? Or that guys like Francis, Moon, Williams etc are earning £300K or less. I guess it's possible but it seems both unlikely and out of line with other salaries that have been made public.

We don't know what LCD signed for but there's no reason to think it's much more than Slade (if more it is). I'm almost certain Moon's on £300K or less. He came through the academy and probably never expected an England call up this late in the day. I doubt he was looking to jump to another club to further that dream. I can imagine Williams and Francis are on £300K at least.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Sans Culottes 20 January, 2020 08:45
Quote:
LutonS
Was it my imagination or did Smally say the requested audit was to go back 10 years? In his BT interview bith Martin Bayfield pre game.

That's what I heard.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Exeforever 20 January, 2020 11:04
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Quote:
Sarriebone
Minimum stadium size was dropped a couple of years ago [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Thanks for the correction Sarriebone. Last QF I was at was Saints a few years ago and all I remember was we didn't need the expanded capacity as we'd played them like 6 times that season already and everyone was thoroughly bored of the fixture. I hadn't appreciated that it had changed and responded to a report in a paper saying "despite Sandy Park capacity being 13500 or something they would be allowed to hold the QF there with no expansion.

Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.

You're welcome Blackheath Sarrie. There's so much innuendo and rumour circulating at present that a simple misunderstanding is not surprising.

FWIW one of the advantages of being the only remaining members' club is that, had it been us breaking the cap, I do believe that the membership would have rallied round and demanded the resignations of the entire board but, like you I would continue to support the club that I have supported for the last 50 years. Clubs are bigger than the current first XV or board of directors and I hope that you get things sorted out and are able to work your way back on an honest footing.

That said I am disappointed beyond measure that Wray (and others???) put winning above all else and have dragged rugby's reputation through the mud.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
daz_71 20 January, 2020 12:19
I've just listened to the Rugby Union Weekly podcast. - Saracens special. Not something I usually listen to but felt the need for obvious reasons. It included an interview with Brendan Venter. Some interesting comments made:

1) Brendan reckons Saracens were over the cap by around £500K. The £2M being quoted is completely false. He said because Salaries are measured from July to end of June Saracens needed to offload players with a combined salary of £2M to get within the cap this season - as we are now in January

2) Brad was quoted as saying the squad would stay together. (Personally I just cannot see this particularly in a Lions year)

3) Ugo Monye (not the best I know) saying that it would be easier for Farrell to stay than a Ben Earls or Max Mallins as they would be giving up on their England hopes for the best part of 3 years

Also on the podcast was Laura Scott who broke the initial story. The general comment was PRL were not doing their job properly if it took a journalist to uncover the cheating. Confirming what most of us have said.

Anyway it's probably worth a listen (if you can face it)

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
EXDJ 20 January, 2020 13:25
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Exeforver and EXDJ my apologies, see above reply to Sarriebone. Having railed against people quoting incorrect newspaper articles I have done the same thing myself.

No big deal - variety of sources out there, some inevitably not 100% accurate.

Re: EVERYTHING SALARYCAP RELATED
Yorki 20 January, 2020 22:01
Yorkshire Carnegie support here.
I am genuinely sorry to see your club troubles and impending change in status , I have always enjoyed watching Saracens play on TV, we all knew Saracens where over the salary cap but that meant they were the only English club that could compete in Europe on equal basis. Rugby Unions financial affairs are in mess in general and the difference between Saracens and the other clubs was that Saracens were successful so they attracted scrutiny. All great clubs have dips and debacles but it will not be too long before you are back competing at the top again.

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