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Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Discussion started by The Bard , 12 January, 2020 18:44
Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
The Bard 12 January, 2020 18:44
For those who were exasperated by the interminable reviews in our game against Worcester last week, I can assure it it was nothing compared to last night.
After watching our game in Swansea we took a late decision to go to Scarlets V Toulon which was just up the road.
the weather was absolutely appalling, but that didn't prevent a lively first half with Toulon pulling away after a bright start from Scarlets.
The second half in contrast went on forever. We had a mass 'brawl' which took 5 minutes to review with the outcome of... absolutely nothing. A few minutes later the same protagonists kick off for a second brawl (presumably trying to get sent back to the warmth of the dressing room!) Another 5 minute review and yet again absolutely nothing decided.
Towards the end Scarlets are camped on the Toulon line but with the game long since in the Toulon bag. Despite Scarlets playing with penalty advantage we have two more endless reviews to see if the ball is grounded which unsurprisingly yield nothing except pneumonia for those who haven't left for home.
It has simply got to be speeded up. If a clear alternative to the referee's original decision can't be seen in a few moments then stick with it, unless it is the final play and it decides the game.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
JO'G 13 January, 2020 09:29
they should limit them to 3 replays - if not revert to the on-field decision

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
#wolfpack 13 January, 2020 09:39
My view is the TMO should be used solely for 'factual' matters like it used to be - was the ball grounded? was his foot in touch?

And otherwise they can shut up and leave us all alone. It should not be an opportunity for the referee to re-referee the game again and again and again.

Quite regularly we end up having halves of rugby at AzP that last over an hour. GET ON WITH IT!!


(also - I have an unintended consequences theory too - imo part of the reason players are getting injured with increasing regularity and increasing severity is because (1) hits are so much harder and carry so much more force; (2) this is partly because the players are so much bigger and heavier; (3) they can afford to be so much bigger and heavier partly because they don't need to be aerobically fit; (4) they don't need to be aerobically fit because they actually aren't running around without breaks for 80 mins; (5) 5 of the 8 starting forwards will be substituted during the game, there are stoppages every 10 minutes for an injury of some description, the TMO intervenes 3-5 times a half giving everyone a further breather (often having a look to see if some tackle is causing player injury!))

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Graeme D 13 January, 2020 10:52
I did comment on another forum that C Mk was becoming a good ref but also commented about his use (excessive) of the TMO.
He is clear with his decisions and explanations.

Agree about there being too many breaks in play and breathers.



Graeme

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
The Bard 13 January, 2020 12:36
Quote:
Graeme D
I did comment on another forum that C Mk was becoming a good ref but also commented about his use (excessive) of the TMO.
He is clear with his decisions and explanations.

Agree about there being too many breaks in play and breathers.
Quite agree that his game management and player management is much improved.
Wayne Barnes game a good demonstration of TMO use yesterday, only really take time when it was the vital score near the end of the game

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Innings 13 January, 2020 14:58
IMHO, the desperate slowness of the game has all the effects noted here, with the added disincentive for any new comer to rugby to want to repeat the experience. Professional rugby is in competition for your leisure pound and mine, and isn't delivering the experience that anyone paying their leisure money to attend has a right to receive.

As for substitutes, they are always, for every game, a complete blight on continuity and entertainment.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Sarriebone 13 January, 2020 15:14
Austin Healey came up with a great idea while on comms yesterday to speed up at least part of the game. His suggestion was that at scrum time if a free kick is awarded then it should be what the name implies, i.e. a kick, no asking for another scrum. Kick the ball and get on with the game. Seems eminently sensible to me.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
LutonS 13 January, 2020 15:44
The problem the refs have is that any mistake will be picked and poured over by the pundits afterwards, especially if it's a crucial call.

I do feel that refs have become over reliant on the guy in the truck though, perhaps they need to be given more games without it so they can learn to back their own judgement a bit more? It can't be solely coincidence that one of the best (non) users of the TMO is Nigel Owens and he still refs lower league and junior games in his spare time.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
TonyTaff 13 January, 2020 18:37
Don't get me started on the refs this weekend!

I already suffer from high blood pressure winking smiley

Wayne was superb at La Děfense, but he was impaired by shortcomings in the TV and/or our mate Graham Hughes!

I may start a new thread winking smiley hic



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
The Bard 13 January, 2020 20:28
It did seem odd that the highest tech ground on the planet could only provide a couple of camera angles when it came to ruling on a Racing try!

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
TonyTaff 14 January, 2020 16:45
Quote:
The Bard
It did seem odd that the highest tech ground on the planet could only provide a couple of camera angles when it came to ruling on a Racing try!

You ARE Neil Francis, and I claim my 5 guineas!

The Leprechauns are jumping up and down about it.

However, I would have expected Mr Barnes to check the grounding for Thomas's acrobatics in the corner.



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Sarriebone 14 January, 2020 16:54
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
The Bard
It did seem odd that the highest tech ground on the planet could only provide a couple of camera angles when it came to ruling on a Racing try!

You ARE Neil Francis, and I claim my 5 guineas!

The Leprechauns are jumping up and down about it.

However, I would have expected Mr Barnes to check the grounding for Thomas's acrobatics in the corner.

He did ask for the grounding to be checked, and it was. How well it was checked? Well that was down to Hughes in the truck

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
JO'G 14 January, 2020 17:40
Personally I don't really have a problem with the ref asking for the grounding to be checked (foot in touch) and not actually seeing it, merely taking the work of the qualifed fellow official

If the touch-judge put up his flag as a player dived over in the corner, it would be a line-out no replays taken

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
TonyTaff 15 January, 2020 12:40
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
The Bard
It did seem odd that the highest tech ground on the planet could only provide a couple of camera angles when it came to ruling on a Racing try!

You ARE Neil Francis, and I claim my 5 guineas!

The Leprechauns are jumping up and down about it.

However, I would have expected Mr Barnes to check the grounding for Thomas's acrobatics in the corner.

He did ask for the grounding to be checked, and it was. How well it was checked? Well that was down to Hughes in the truck

Perhaps I wasn't being specific enough. Yes, they focussed on whether the ball ever left his grasp; I didn't spot them checking WHERE the ball was grounded.



721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Sarriebone 15 January, 2020 12:43
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
Sarriebone
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
The Bard
It did seem odd that the highest tech ground on the planet could only provide a couple of camera angles when it came to ruling on a Racing try!

You ARE Neil Francis, and I claim my 5 guineas!

The Leprechauns are jumping up and down about it.

However, I would have expected Mr Barnes to check the grounding for Thomas's acrobatics in the corner.

He did ask for the grounding to be checked, and it was. How well it was checked? Well that was down to Hughes in the truck
Ah, my apologies

Perhaps I wasn't being specific enough. Yes, they focussed on whether the ball ever left his grasp; I didn't spot them checking WHERE the ball was grounded.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
Squawker2 16 January, 2020 00:25
Quote:
Sarriebone
Austin Healey came up with a great idea while on comms yesterday to speed up at least part of the game. His suggestion was that at scrum time if a free kick is awarded then it should be what the name implies, i.e. a kick, no asking for another scrum. Kick the ball and get on with the game. Seems eminently sensible to me.

Except a free kick is supposed to be a sanction against a team. While it would seem legitimate to stop a team going for a scrum to try and force a penalty, sometimes they genuinely want the scrum, and a free kick would actually be a negative.

5m attacking scrums (and 22m scrums in general) would be the primary example



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
olipool 16 January, 2020 00:53
Quote:
#wolfpack
(also - I have an unintended consequences theory too - imo part of the reason players are getting injured with increasing regularity and increasing severity is because (1) hits are so much harder and carry so much more force; (2) this is partly because the players are so much bigger and heavier; (3) they can afford to be so much bigger and heavier partly because they don't need to be aerobically fit; (4) they don't need to be aerobically fit because they actually aren't running around without breaks for 80 mins; (5) 5 of the 8 starting forwards will be substituted during the game, there are stoppages every 10 minutes for an injury of some description, the TMO intervenes 3-5 times a half giving everyone a further breather (often having a look to see if some tackle is causing player injury!))

This! 100% agree.

Re: Craig Maxwell-Keys and the TMO
JO'G 16 January, 2020 15:52
Quote:
Squawker2
Quote:
Sarriebone
Austin Healey came up with a great idea while on comms yesterday to speed up at least part of the game. His suggestion was that at scrum time if a free kick is awarded then it should be what the name implies, i.e. a kick, no asking for another scrum. Kick the ball and get on with the game. Seems eminently sensible to me.

Except a free kick is supposed to be a sanction against a team. While it would seem legitimate to stop a team going for a scrum to try and force a penalty, sometimes they genuinely want the scrum, and a free kick would actually be a negative.

5m attacking scrums (and 22m scrums in general) would be the primary example

I've long been an advocate of no full penalty at scrums for collapses, not driving straight - free-kick or a penalty try only
Early disengagement by the defending back-row still a full penalty as is 5 yard encroachment by backs

This would encourage the attacking side to take the ball early and was advocated as a rule change after the 2015 World cup


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