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Automatic Relegation
Discussion started by OhMaroItoje , 16 January, 2020 21:01
Automatic Relegation
OhMaroItoje 16 January, 2020 21:01
Rugby pass is reporting that we are still over the cap and are facing automatic relegation...

[amp.rugbypass.com]

Edit: Can anyone confirm whether rules have changed as I thought the MAXIMUM penalty in one season is the 35 point deduction?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/01/2020 22:10 by OhMaroItoje.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Sarriebone 16 January, 2020 21:06
Just posted this in the SC thread, it's sounding worse and worse sad smiley

Re: Automatic Relegation
Eric Browett 16 January, 2020 21:37
I understood you had to be under the cap for the year on June 30th. That's when the books have to balance. So we could still be over cap at present but balance it up as year progresses.

Re: Automatic Relegation
ElephantJuice 16 January, 2020 21:56
Quote:
Eric Browett
I understood you had to be under the cap for the year on June 30th. That's when the books have to balance. So we could still be over cap at present but balance it up as year progresses.

You literally refuse to see it...

Re: Automatic Relegation
digitalsys 16 January, 2020 22:00
Falcons fan in peace

If, and it is an if, with the committed arrangements with players, the salary cap has already been broken, then it could theoretically be a done deal, and this is pure speculation.

One other possibility is tha6 with player contract termination clauses, it is also impossible to get under, and therefore relegation is a done deal, the sensible thing financially is to dispose of assets (players) as much as possible as it is just going to be an unnecessary expense in this FY - most would probably leave as opposed to play in the championship as an england place would not be an option (as was with is with Mark Wilson)

You have my sympathy as I really believe the fans deserved more from NW and a bit of humility and admission of guilt would have gone a long way.

Keep the faith!

Re: Automatic Relegation
ukms 16 January, 2020 22:00
Quote:
Eric Browett
I understood you had to be under the cap for the year on June 30th. That's when the books have to balance. So we could still be over cap at present but balance it up as year progresses.

Perhaps easier said than done to balance everything ! Maybe it’s been spent already or committed already and they are f’d



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/01/2020 22:07 by ukms.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Stumpy7780 16 January, 2020 22:02
I guess I would like to say I am surprised but maybe the writing on the wall has been there all a long. For a long time now many a person has said how poorly run the club is when it comes to customer service etc. If the client facing stuff is poor imagine what is going on behind the scenes.

I hope that all of this is just BS but I can’t help but feel that it is not and if it is true I do feel like we as fans have all been very badly let down!

Re: Automatic Relegation
villagesarrie 16 January, 2020 22:02
Now on the BBC news website.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Paulr58 16 January, 2020 22:05
We need to know exactly what is is the judgement and how we have broken the salary cap,only then can all the speculation stop and the truth be known.

Re: Automatic Relegation
tigerburnie 16 January, 2020 22:07
Could make a mess of Englands chances this 6 nations too, even if a players contract is terminated, compensation would be required and that counts in the cap too, not sure how this can be easily resolved...……..assuming the report is true.

Re: Automatic Relegation
ninjafez 16 January, 2020 22:14
its not really massive news though is it, just the clubs trying to build pressure in to a situation that Ed is already aware of and working on. i'm not too shocked by this, even if this is true or not im sure some the lower clubs will be beating the drum to try and do as much distraction in the media as possible regardless of whether its needed or not after the cuts that are, again needed or not needed!!!!

re could really do with PRL releasing this report....



Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Re: Automatic Relegation
TOKS 16 January, 2020 22:19
Well I guess the only good news would be that if PRL.take action which they arent allowed to under their rules then we can appeal everything which also isnt allowed under the rules.

Re: Automatic Relegation
mfc 16 January, 2020 22:23
Bit of a shower to put it mildly

We’re currently a distraction to the English game and English team

Re: Automatic Relegation
Buzzil 16 January, 2020 22:28
Allegedly there were two 35 point fines but they were given simultaneously rather than sequentially. That can be changed within the rules.

Do feel sorry for you guys as you have been let down by your club but surely subconsciously most of you questioned how you could afford that squad?

Re: Automatic Relegation
TOKS 16 January, 2020 22:34
Where's that mysterious "Spokesman for Premiership Rugby"? He's normally good for a quote about now!

BBC actually saying we COULD be relegated if we don't comply with the cap this season. Sky Sports not reporting it at all.

But a very strongly worded article from Rugby Pass if it isn't true. And certainly suggests some leakage from a supposedly confidential meeting.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Paulr58 16 January, 2020 22:38
Let me guess who has leaked the news ? There are one or two prime candidates !!!!

Re: Automatic Relegation
BlackheathSarrie 16 January, 2020 22:46
Quote:
Stumpy7780
II can’t help but feel that it is not and if it is true I do feel like we as fans have all been very badly let down!

I guess this is were you see the difference between fans and "supporters" Not just there for the good times but also when things are tough. A general point Stumpy7780, not directed at you.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Stumpy7780 16 January, 2020 23:00
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Quote:
Stumpy7780
II can’t help but feel that it is not and if it is true I do feel like we as fans have all been very badly let down!

I guess this is were you see the difference between fans and "supporters" Not just there for the good times but also when things are tough. A general point Stumpy7780, not directed at you.
Something I thought of whilst writing this was the fact that many if not most of us on here supported the club when we were rubbish. Winning trophies is not what it was about. It was about the rugby.

None of us demanded trophies we were just happy that we stayed up or got a chance to play in the Heineken cup. It seems a long the way this has been lost by the club, it became about the winning and worse yet it became about winning at any cost!

I won’t lie I have loved winning I have some great memories of all the finals that we won but when we look back what has it cost us?

Re: Automatic Relegation
Sorry Sarrie 16 January, 2020 23:05
We may as well focus on winning the European Champions Cup then!! Wonder what effect all this will have on Sunday in all seriousness



My wife and I are on the verge of splitting up because of my obsession with rugby.
I've decided to give it one last try......

Re: Automatic Relegation
darktagnan 16 January, 2020 23:21
so the PRL are either looking to break their own rules or reinvent them on the fly in mid season to make a bitter ex marine with a failing IT business happy?

Re: Automatic Relegation
David@Sarries 16 January, 2020 23:34
The RugbyPass article states that we have been asked to prove that we are under the cap RIGHT NOW; if we’re not then they are counting it as another breach.

As stated above, any early termination attracts cost which counts towards the cap and so, if the article is correct, we are indeed screwed.

As others have said, winning is nice but MY support doesn’t depend on it. I moved to Barnet in 1987 and have supported the club since then through embarrassing times and magical ones. A year in the Championship (or more) will not change that.

Re: Automatic Relegation
ElephantJuice 16 January, 2020 23:37
Personally I have a feeling that Saracens were significantly higher over the Cap than has been alluded to.

Report not published to save embarrassment all around and the sin downplayed.

So much so that even with best efforts of new CEO this season, they’ve just realised that it’s mathematically impossible for them to not exceed the Cap again this season. The writing was on the wall a while ago, it’s just taken them a few weeks to get up the courage to take a bite of the big sh*t sandwich...

All conjecture of course.

Re: Automatic Relegation
darktagnan 16 January, 2020 23:38
Dear Mr Juice.
One thing I can see is that you registered your name less than 2 weeks ago which suggests that you are either a person with a remarkably recent interest in these issues - or more likely - a known troll who has been booted out before - in which case I will ask you very nicely (once) to post your messages in another place.

Re: Automatic Relegation
ElephantJuice 16 January, 2020 23:43
Quote:
darktagnan
Dear Mr Juice.
One thing I can see is that you registered your name less than 2 weeks ago which suggests that you are either a person with a remarkably recent interest in these issues - or more likely - a known troll who has been booted out before - in which case I will ask you very nicely (once) to post your messages in another place.

Not a Troll - but yes I am very interested in these events. Being a Gloucester fan we don’t tend to use Rugby Network - we stick to ShedWeb.

I’m just amazed that so many of the Saracens fans are in so much denial about what has been going on for years, when it’s obvious to everyone else. I’m angry at the lack of contrition (generally), the “whatabout-ness”, the misdirection and lies and refusal to see the truth.

Maybe you class that as a Troll...

Re: Automatic Relegation
Florida 16 January, 2020 23:52
Quote:
ElephantJuice
Report not published to save embarrassment all around and the sin downplayed.

Or it's not being published as the salary cap regulations state it's confidential, I mean there's a whole section devoted to it. Long and short, PRL are able to publish a summary of sanctions imposed (we've seen that) and decisions reached (which we've also seen).

Re: Automatic Relegation
ElephantJuice 16 January, 2020 23:58
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
ElephantJuice
Report not published to save embarrassment all around and the sin downplayed.

Or it's not being published as the salary cap regulations state it's confidential, I mean there's a whole section devoted to it. Long and short, PRL are able to publish a summary of sanctions imposed (we've seen that) and decisions reached (which we've also seen).

Could be - as I said - purely conjecture on my part...

Re: Automatic Relegation
ExiledChameleon 17 January, 2020 00:39
BBC Journo: Breaking: Have received confirmation that Saracens WILL be relegated to the RFU Championship next season after they missed a deadline to prove compliance this season from Premiership Rugby. Story on @BBCSport shortly.

[twitter.com]

You're down lads, I'll come check you out against Readingensians next year, and see you again in 2021. Definitely worth going for the Heineken Cup this year.

Screenshot: [i.redd.it]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2020 00:53 by ExiledChameleon.

Re: Automatic Relegation
ElephantJuice 17 January, 2020 00:42
Just got this snippet from comments in the Guardian - not sure which media outlets are being quoted:

“According to other media reports, there are indications that Saracens are in a difficult position to provide the necessary assurances demanded of them about compliance with the cap this season.

With the salary-cap limit of £7m apparently, whilst previous reporting said that in two of the last three seasons, the club exceeded the cap by 650k, thus earning a 35 point deduction for each offence, the actual amount of excess was not stated,. It's now reported that they exceeded in three seasons, and two of those were by £1.2 million and £1.3 million most recently”.

Re: Automatic Relegation
T J 17 January, 2020 02:32
Quote:
darktagnan
so the PRL are either looking to break their own rules or reinvent them on the fly in mid season to make a bitter ex marine with a failing IT business happy?

Or it could be that other clubs and PRL are finally fed up of your years of persistent cheating?

Just a thought.

Re: Automatic Relegation
ExiledChameleon 17 January, 2020 02:41
Quote:
T J
Quote:
darktagnan
so the PRL are either looking to break their own rules or reinvent them on the fly in mid season to make a bitter ex marine with a failing IT business happy?

Or it could be that other clubs and PRL are finally fed up of your years of persistent cheating?

Just a thought.

6 out of the last 7 years Saracens have broken the salary cap, to lots of the rugby world this will be a good step towards justice. £3m overspending in just two years, unbelievable.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Vespulavulgaris 17 January, 2020 06:51
Quote:
darktagnan
so the PRL are either looking to break their own rules or reinvent them on the fly in mid season to make a bitter ex marine with a failing IT business happy?

So everyone should adhere to the rules exactly as written?

Re: Automatic Relegation
Grins 17 January, 2020 07:08
[quote ElephantJuice]Just got this snippet from comments in the Guardian - not sure which media outlets are being quoted:

“According to other media reports, there are indications that Saracens are in a difficult position to provide the necessary assurances demanded of them about compliance with the cap this season.

With the salary-cap limit of £7m apparently, whilst previous reporting said that in two of the last three seasons, the club exceeded the cap by 650k, thus earning a 35 point deduction for each offence, the actual amount of excess was not stated,. It's now reported that they exceeded in three seasons, and two of those were by £1.2 million and £1.3 million most recently”.[/quote

This is what the Times is reporting.

If the reports are true this morning’s 8:30 squad meeting will be key. Will any players be prepared to leave the club for no compensation to get below the cap? If they are really £1.2m over and we are six months into the cap they need to cut payroll from £4.1m for the first six months to £2.9m in the second - will the entire squad agree to take a 30% pay cut? Obviously assumes pay is evenly spread.

Re: Automatic Relegation
101proof 17 January, 2020 08:08
Some of the comments here are disgusting. No matter what is going on the Saracens fans aren't to blame for any of this. This whole mess is down to the management who have screwed up in one way or another. I'm a Worcester fan and have always enjoyed watching Saracens play and when they've visited Sixways the fans have always been fantastic.

So some people are trying to keep hope and be positive and are suggesting it might all be blown out of proportion, can you blame them? I imagine anyone would be hoping that it's not as bad as it's being played out in the press if it were their team.
It did look like the issues were becoming clearer on what had gone on and the future for Saracens but now with these latest reports that's been blown out of the water. People are confused and angry and some fans are getting defensive which is to be expected imo. People coming here to try and make people feel worse about it shows just how bitter they are.

Personally I don't want to see Sarries relegated. I love their professionalism and everything they have done for the game. Sure I want them within the cap but not at the expense of destroying the club which it seems will only make some happy.

So I wish all the best out of this sorry situation for you fans, see you at Sixways again soon.

Re: Automatic Relegation
cwrich 17 January, 2020 08:15
101 .. Class

Re: Automatic Relegation
penguin 17 January, 2020 08:19
Tiger in peace..

I feel for you guys, after all, you are not running the club and have been let down..

You have and are doing your side of the deal in supporting the team. Whatever happens, I really wish you all well, should be the bottom two that go down to make it fair for me and we are very much still in this! might be playing you next season still...

Go well ignore the haters and know that genuine rugby supporters have your back and wish you well.

Penguin

Re: Automatic Relegation
Fellocks 17 January, 2020 08:51
Saints fan, totally agree with Penguin. I guess the realisation is kicking in that it would be completely unfair for another club to go down whilst Sarries were still over the cap, they were always going to overhaul Leicester and Irish.

Stay strong, as fans we support out team through thick and thin!

Re: Automatic Relegation
Barossa 17 January, 2020 09:06
Wasps fan in peace. Whatever the rights and wrongs of what Saracens' owners and management have done, as fans you have my greatest sympathy - you have been badly let down. I suspect it'll be a rocky road getting back to a semblance of normality but hope you stick by the club through tough times. See you at the Ricoh in a few weeks...

Re: Automatic Relegation
Bedlington Lad 17 January, 2020 09:15
Quote:
Stumpy7780
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Quote:
Stumpy7780
II can’t help but feel that it is not and if it is true I do feel like we as fans have all been very badly let down!

I guess this is were you see the difference between fans and "supporters" Not just there for the good times but also when things are tough. A general point Stumpy7780, not directed at you.
Something I thought of whilst writing this was the fact that many if not most of us on here supported the club when we were rubbish. Winning trophies is not what it was about. It was about the rugby.

None of us demanded trophies we were just happy that we stayed up or got a chance to play in the Heineken cup. It seems a long the way this has been lost by the club, it became about the winning and worse yet it became about winning at any cost!

I won’t lie I have loved winning I have some great memories of all the finals that we won but when we look back what has it cost us?

Falcons fan here - it's supporters like yourself I feel for. A thick & thin supporter who was probably a bit puzzled at how you could afford all the players but enjoyed the ride. A year out isn't that bad, we're on our second time and it makes a change seeing different teams. This is the fault of people running the club losing perspective and you suffer as a consequence. Good luck when you've sorted it all out.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Aberavon Wizard 17 January, 2020 09:18
Huge sympathy for the fans and younger players who have nothing to do with this mess. Relegation is not the end of the world as Quins and Saints can testify albeit in rather different circumstances.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Dorset Boy 17 January, 2020 09:41
whilst this is no fault of the supporters, where else can followers of other clubs express their frustrations about the years of cheating so that the board of Salaries might actually hear how disgusted people are by their actions?
The 2015 investigation and fine should have been heeded and learnt from, it clearly was ignored by Nigel Wray and the Salaries board.

The 2019 investigation results and subsequent fine - there has been no contrition, no apology, and until 2/3 weeks ago, no action to resolve the ongoing situation from the board and owner of Salaries. All we've had are a series of PR lies from the club whilst full strength Salaries squads have put compliant clubs to the sword on the field.

No wonder people now want the book thrown at the club, and unfortunately you as supporters are caught up in the flak.

As said by a few above, relegation won't be the end of the world, but will be the opportunity to cleanse the club.
Nigel Wray all needs to sever all ties though, as he clearly is not fit to run a rugby club.

Re: Automatic Relegation
TOKS 17 January, 2020 09:48
I really don't see the problem here (probably because I'm not that bright!).

The cap is assessed at the end of the season. Relegate the bottom team then. If that team isn't Saracens, and Saracens have proven to break the cap this season, then reinstate the relegated team for next year and retroactively relegate Saracens.

If you force Saracens to do things in the very short term then it could really mess up a number of players, some (most?) of whom will be completely innocent in this matter. There again it sounds like we've done next to nothing in the past two months which is why we are having to do things in a bit of a hurry.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Adey 17 January, 2020 09:53
Because if you’ve been caught cheating. Which we have. And then changed absolutely nothing. Which we haven’t. You’re still cheating. Which we probably are.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Saint Stokey 17 January, 2020 09:58
The danger with this is that it ruins the league... the same as with ring fencing.

If you guys are relegated through poor performance on the pitch, fine.
If you guys are relegated as a result of financial indiscretions, fine but this should mean that the next worst team, i.e. 11th place, should be relegated and 2 teams brought up from the Championship.

The last thing the league needs a a whole series of dead rubber games as there would be no reason for you to play any senior players in the league and solely focus on the Champions Cup.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Roderick Flashheart 17 January, 2020 10:00
Nice to see we're providing a useful vent to many this morning, hope that you're all feeling a little better now ?


Those who have come with words of support - thank you

Re: Automatic Relegation
daz_71 17 January, 2020 10:02
If the amounts that have been quoted that we have broken the cap by over the past 2 seasons then I think we probably deserve relegation. However I have said this over and over again we need transparency of what the club has actually done. I don't think we will get it!

Also this probably isn't going to be a popular opinion here but some of the players must be complicit in knowing that the club were cheating the cap. Even just looking at how much they were earning you wouldn't need to be a rocket scientist to think this add up.

I am genuinely gutted as it seems everything that has been achieved has been based on a lie. We naturally defend the team and club but I'm finding it hard to be annoyed at the actions the other clubs are taking!

Re: Automatic Relegation
#wolfpack 17 January, 2020 10:02
If compensation for contract termination is counted as salary - which it is (even if that player hasn't played all season due to injury so you have had no benefit from them at all) - then reducing your total wage liability is very very difficult if not impossible without other clubs willing to take players off your hands (which the Times reported they aren't willing to because (1) they can't afford them (2) they want us to go down).

So essentially the other clubs have been like : "do the impossible by Monday... oh you can't... off you go."


This is sadly a bind we cannot get out of: a pincer movement of contractual obligations we can't get out of and chairmen with various motivations ((1) revenge; (2) there are some big clubs down the bottom looking over their shoulder).

Re: Automatic Relegation
Dorset Boy 17 January, 2020 10:02
These reported breaches are huge TOKS, and clearly the Club have to have known they weren't marginal. Just about 7 months into the reporting period and there has been zero evidence of anything having been done about it, just PR lies. For a long term supporter like yourself this must be horrible.

The lack of action to address the problem has distorted this season's league, and the previous punishment now appear even more lenient than many already thought.

Wray and his board have brought this mess upon themselves through their sheer arrogance (in ignoring the warning in 2015) and their ongoing lies and deceit.

All Salaries league results so far this season should be anulled, and 4 points awarded to the other team IMHO. There should then be a ban on Salaries signing players from other clubs for a period.

One other point, showing your EC winning picture at the top of every thread isn't helping portray an humility - perhaps your mods might think on that one!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/01/2020 10:04 by Dorset Boy.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Primavesi2 17 January, 2020 10:07
Quote:
TOKS
I really don't see the problem here (probably because I'm not that bright!).
The cap is assessed at the end of the season. Relegate the bottom team then. If that team isn't Saracens, and Saracens have proven to break the cap this season, then reinstate the relegated team for next year and retroactively relegate Saracens.

If you force Saracens to do things in the very short term then it could really mess up a number of players, some (most?) of whom will be completely innocent in this matter. There again it sounds like we've done next to nothing in the past two months which is why we are having to do things in a bit of a hurry.

Its not really acceptable for clubs not to know what division they will be playing in until the end of June. Realistically, we will know now if we can get under the cap or not and it is good for all involved to get this sorted out now so that clubs (including us) can plan for next season. It sounds like getting under the cap is going to be very difficult (what is clear now is that the extent of our transgressions goes way past some accounting errors or an interpretation issue surrounding co investments) so it would be better to know our fate now and then we can start planning on how to rebuild from here and more importantly allow the players to start looking for clubs.

Re: Automatic Relegation
Rich. 17 January, 2020 10:11
I can't see any sense in having Sarries plus a n other relegated this season! Ealing, Pirates or whoever (as the club to 'benefit' from that) will not have been planning for promotion this year and in the what would be few months still left before the start of next season would never be able to assemble a team which could be competitive in the premiership next year. So you'd swap some dead rubbers this year for effective a whole season of dead rubbers next year.

+ The argument can be that, with a 35 point reduction, if Saracens had been under the cap for this season (as a result of losing star players) then they might have ended up as the bottom team and therefore why should another team in those circumstances also get relegated!!

+ Finally those who want a ring-fenced premiership would get an idea of how that would impact on end of season games involving those clubs with no chance of getting into the top 6 - that said, like last season it is quite likely that virtually every team will still have a chance of making top 6 right up to the the last few weeks of the season!!

All the best to all Sarries fans

Re: Automatic Relegation
Primavesi2 17 January, 2020 10:12
Quote:
Dorset Boy

One other point, showing your EC winning picture at the top of every thread isn't helping portray an humility - perhaps your mods might think on that one!

While I agree with some of your comment this last point is nonsense. Nothing at all wrong with celebrating and being proud of your achievements and certainly nothing to do with humility. Remember that a) this is our message board and b) the European cup does not have a salary cap. What do you want, a picture of us getting humped in front of 10,000 empty seats in Watford? Daft comment.

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