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Player rumours
Discussion started by Sarriebone , 05 March, 2020 16:18
Player rumours
Sarriebone 05 March, 2020 16:18
I'm going to try this one more time as I don't want to fill the squad thread with rumours. If this thread goes off the rails as well then I give up .

Today's rumours:

Koch set to be the latest player to commit his future to us:

[www.rugbypass.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2020 16:20 by Sarriebone.

Re: Player rumours
CT 05 March, 2020 16:26
The Evening Standard article they've taken that from also says Malins, Earl and Isiekwe will sign new contracts before leaving on loan.

Re: Player rumours
BlackheathSarrie 05 March, 2020 17:12
That would be incredible news if true CT.

Re: Player rumours
Dave Berko 05 March, 2020 17:46
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
That would be incredible news if true CT.

Absolutely.

Re: Player rumours
Neville 05 March, 2020 17:47
I never pray. What for? To whom?? But I am praying that this is true.

Re: Player rumours
Sarriebone 05 March, 2020 17:50
Earl re-signing wouldn't surprise me, after Saturday's match he posted a picture on social media with the caption "love this club" with black and red emojis, I think he's fairly comitted to the club.

Hopefully the team being happy for them to go out on loan would will mean a lot to those younger players on the fringe of international recognition, i.e "we still want you at the club but understand that a year in the championship, might not be great for your careers at this point in time. So go off for a year and you'll be welcome back"

Re: Player rumours
GazzaFez 05 March, 2020 18:41
Quote:
Neville
I never pray. What for? To whom?? But I am praying that this is true.

Granted.

(Sm30) (Sm14)

Re: Player rumours
CambridgeSarrie. 05 March, 2020 18:45
Excellent news if true, despite the hopes of our detractors it seems a mass exodus isn't happening.



Here we go! Dah. Dah-dah-dee-dah....

Re: Player rumours
The Bard 05 March, 2020 21:58
Fantastic if Nick Isiekwe stays, I guess if Kruis and Skelton go he becomes automatic first choice

Re: Player rumours
McSaracens 05 March, 2020 22:01
Brilliant news re Isiekwe. Just need to get Tomkins now!



ďI believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it.Ē - Nils Mordt

Re: Player rumours
Eric Browett 06 March, 2020 07:57
Didn't I read on another thread McCall being quoted after Saints match as saying Ben and Nick were a big part of our future.

Re: Player rumours
Stumpy7780 06 March, 2020 08:17
Quote:
Eric Browett
Didn't I read on another thread McCall being quoted after Saints match as saying Ben and Nick were a big part of our future.
Which Ben? Spenno or Earl?

Re: Player rumours
#wolfpack 06 March, 2020 08:23
If Nick, Max and Ben stay we are very well set. I assume NT will leave, which is a blow but understandable.

Quote:
The Bard
Fantastic if Nick Isiekwe stays, I guess if Kruis and Skelton go he becomes automatic first choice

Does this depend on Joel's movements? It would be fantastic if we could keep him too. 4,5,6,7,8 of Maro, Joel, Nick, Ben and Billy in two years time would be tasty. Callum Hunter Hill looks good as well (but he is on loan and not sure about future arrangements.

Re: Player rumours
jimfitz12 06 March, 2020 08:51
Quote:
Eric Browett
Didn't I read on another thread McCall being quoted after Saints match as saying Ben and Nick were a big part of our future.

Correct, when speaking about Nick T and Ben E he said they are both confirmed to play a big part in our future. Apparently Nick has signed a loan deal at Scarlets, but will def stay at Sarries long term.

Re: Player rumours
#wolfpack 06 March, 2020 09:06
Quote:
jimfitz12
Quote:
Eric Browett
Didn't I read on another thread McCall being quoted after Saints match as saying Ben and Nick were a big part of our future.

Correct, when speaking about Nick T and Ben E he said they are both confirmed to play a big part in our future. Apparently Nick has signed a loan deal at Scarlets, but will def stay at Sarries long term.

Source??!?

Re: Player rumours
flavman 35 06 March, 2020 11:07
Not sure about nick T when his contract expires he will need to play in wales to carry on his international career.
Think he will end up at the scarlets when yhe time comes. Gutted

Re: Player rumours
jimfitz12 06 March, 2020 11:31
Quote:
#wolfpack
Quote:
jimfitz12
Quote:
Eric Browett
Didn't I read on another thread McCall being quoted after Saints match as saying Ben and Nick were a big part of our future.

Correct, when speaking about Nick T and Ben E he said they are both confirmed to play a big part in our future. Apparently Nick has signed a loan deal at Scarlets, but will def stay at Sarries long term.

Source??!?

I watched the Saints game on a stream at the weekend and following the game it went to Mark McCall for an interview. So the source is Mark McCall...

Re: Player rumours
MaroonTyke2 06 March, 2020 15:44
RugbyPass now saying that Koch will be staying. [www.rugbypass.com]

Re: Player rumours
Sarriebone 06 March, 2020 16:05
Quote:
MaroonTyke2
RugbyPass now saying that Koch will be staying. [www.rugbypass.com]
Yup, that's my opening post in this thread

Re: Player rumours
Roderick Flashheart 06 March, 2020 16:14
Max is staying !! Very happy to see that !

(from official FB feed)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2020 16:15 by Roderick Flashheart.

Re: Player rumours
#wolfpack 06 March, 2020 16:16
Earl also signed a new contract.

Both on loan to Bristol next season.

(from official Twitter)

Re: Player rumours
Sarriebone 06 March, 2020 16:18
Just posted both to the pinned Squad thread

Re: Player rumours
Cereal Killer 06 March, 2020 16:26
Great news [:wor kid:] . Just a shame there are going to be no decent outside backs for Max to learn from in Bristol next year!

Re: Player rumours
myleftboot 06 March, 2020 19:23
To see a World Cup winning import like Koch recommiting is massive news. Our academy products staying is great, but to keep on a "mercenary", wow. Very pleased.

Re: Player rumours
BlackheathSarrie 06 March, 2020 20:32
Can't we just give Tompkins a Thomas Francis contract that has never-ending extension options?

Re: Player rumours
TonyTaff 07 March, 2020 12:01
Quote:
BlackheathSarrie
Can't we just give Tompkins a Thomas Francis contract that has never-ending extension options?

+1 ... with better spelling!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Player rumours
colinmiddx 08 March, 2020 19:41
The last I heard was that Tompkins had signed till 2022.

Re: Player rumours
Rubz 09 March, 2020 12:04
Wales Online now claiming that Nick Tompkins has chosen Cardiff Blues over Scarlets, but still decisions to be made on whether it will be a year loan and then back to Sarries for the final year of his contract, or whether it's a permanent deal...

Re: Player rumours
BlackheathSarrie 09 March, 2020 15:56
Welsh club rugby is dire. I can see his development stalling which is a real shame.

Re: Player rumours
1876-Fez 10 March, 2020 19:14
I know it's the WOL but have heard the rumours elsewhere ... Aled Davies, international scrum half to sign for Saracens


[www.walesonline.co.uk]



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Re: Player rumours
1876-Fez 10 March, 2020 22:08
And now one about Nick Tompkins only wanting to go on loan...

[www.ruck.co.uk]



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Re: Player rumours
Barty II 11 March, 2020 08:19
I'm now trying to keep a summary of the rumours in the Squad Sticky - hard to keep up!

Re: Player rumours
wolfgangvonb77 11 March, 2020 11:06
I think it makes sense that Nick goes on loan and then comes back, hopefully he will still be able to play for Wales on his return to us.

Re: Player rumours
TonyTaff 11 March, 2020 11:40
Quote:
wolfgangvonb77
I think it makes sense that Nick goes on loan and then comes back, hopefully he will still be able to play for Wales on his return to us.

The WRU's selection policy is under review. I make no forecast as to the outcome!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Player rumours
tpr's headmistress 11 March, 2020 11:44

Re: Player rumours
JL904 11 March, 2020 14:15
A couple of boards all over this.

Glaws and Brizzle are now "helping us out" by taking players on loan.

Some people seem to think other clubs have some kind of moral imperative to sacrifice the chance to boost their squad for a year as a further punishment to Saracens.

Re: Player rumours
#wolfpack 11 March, 2020 14:26
It is interesting; I'd like to know the rationale for these clubs taking these players.

I'm obviously chuffed that they are, but from their point of view - one year arrangements for players who realistically aren't the difference between winning or losing, what is the rationale?

If, for instance, Bristol took the Vunipolas for one year to compete with Exeter's power in the playoffs I'd get it - that is a short term deal which could deliver something tangible at the end of it. It is less obvious what the benefit is for taking Max and Ben.

It seems to be we win from these deals, so hopefully there are few more!

Re: Player rumours
tpr's headmistress 11 March, 2020 14:40
Perhaps they live in hope that they'll spend a year on loan then decide they like it so much they stay. Do the loanees come at a cut price salary thus expanding their squad, enabling rotation for the permanent players. You can bet there isn't anything altruistic about the arrangement.

Re: Player rumours
Marlow Nick 11 March, 2020 14:53
Quote:
JL904
A couple of boards all over this.
Glaws and Brizzle are now "helping us out" by taking players on loan.

Some people seem to think other clubs have some kind of moral imperative to sacrifice the chance to boost their squad for a year as a further punishment to Saracens.

JL904,

You're right that some are taking the position of "don't make it easy for Saracens to reassemble their squad when they rejoin the premiership in 2021" but I think you'll find many others are genuinely puzzled as to why a 1 year loan makes sense unless a club has a genuine short-term window they need to fill.

I assume the Saracens players all want to be paid their full value (which we have been repeatedly told is actually higher than Saracens have been paying) so presumably the clubs are all going to be paying full price for the undoubtedly talented players Ö or is there some strange deal where Saracens pay part of the salary thus making these loan players "cheap" for the loan clubs?

It frequently takes several months for a player to fully integrate with new squad to learn their playing style, develop the understanding of what your team-mates are about to do etc. Unless the Saracens loanees are superbly gifted at the transition the assumption has to be that players will not be at their best until part-way through the season and in some cases there is a risk that just as they start to click the loan period comes to an end. Is that good value for money or are they heavily discounted?

If a squad has a major strategic gap in their skills then how does a 1 year loan help? Surely a club would better served bringing in the suitable player on a longer contract. There may be exceptional circumstances where there is a genuine need for a short-term skill but in most cases all a 1 year loan will do is shift the skills problem back 1 year. Why do these loan clubs think the recruitment market will be better then?

That's why I believe that as well as those who want to "punish" Saracens by not taking loan players there are just as many supporters who are scratching their heads saying "why is a loan such an attractive deal?" and would prefer holding fast, refusing the offer of a loan but happily take the option of a permanent transfer

Re: Player rumours
#wolfpack 11 March, 2020 15:08
Quote:
Marlow Nick
That's why I believe that as well as those who want to "punish" Saracens by not taking loan players there are just as many supporters who are scratching their heads saying "why is a loan such an attractive deal?" and would prefer holding fast, refusing the offer of a loan but happily take the option of a permanent transfer

I am one scratching my head slightly, but am obviously pleased these are the arrangements that are being reached.

In terms of a permanent transfer, all of our players are in contract - so I imagine we would be demanding a big old fee for buying them out.

Re: Player rumours
1876-Fez 11 March, 2020 15:38
Quote:
#wolfpack
Quote:
Marlow Nick
That's why I believe that as well as those who want to "punish" Saracens by not taking loan players there are just as many supporters who are scratching their heads saying "why is a loan such an attractive deal?" and would prefer holding fast, refusing the offer of a loan but happily take the option of a permanent transfer

I am one scratching my head slightly, but am obviously pleased these are the arrangements that are being reached.

In terms of a permanent transfer, all of our players are in contract - so I imagine we would be demanding a big old fee for buying them out.

In these cases I think you are best asking Pat Lam, Johan Ackermann and their respective coaching teams what they see in it and pointing out that they shouldn't have taken the deals offered!!



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Re: Player rumours
Dolph42 11 March, 2020 15:38
While these deals may be unusual, theyíre hardly precedent setting. Most permanent transfers are on 2 year contracts, so signing a player for half that isnít exactly shortly termism, these are also young, hungry players who have moved to further their international ambitions so will likely give 100%. Also consider that some DoRs may only be looking one year out, if they donít succeed next year they could be out of a job, so why would they not maximise their chances. Next season, like this one is a prime opportunity for clubs to get into the playoffs or the ERCC.

Itís a win, win, win for the player and both clubs.

In terms of salary, Iím led to believe that Saracens are paying more than half the salaries, but as itís a loan I think the full amount sits on the new clubs salary cap.

Re: Player rumours
JL904 11 March, 2020 16:49
@ Nick

Valid points all in your quite reasonable answer.

For sure, the vast majority of people are wondering just how the clubs having loan players benefit from the deal, and it's a fair question. As '76 Fez alludes, they're questions for the DoR's concerned.

My observation is that there are a handful of rival fans on a few other boards - they are a tiny minority, in fairness - who give the impression that other clubs are actively helping us keep an illegal squad together. The word "pariahs" has been used regarding Bristol. One poster actually believes that the loan of Ben Earl and Max Malins is ...

Just one owner trying to buy the premiership trophy, helping out a bloke who already did so.

Make of that what you will, my friend.

Re: Player rumours
BlackheathSarrie 11 March, 2020 19:17
Quote:
JL904
Some people seem to think other clubs have some kind of moral imperative to sacrifice the chance to boost their squad for a year as a further punishment to Saracens.

I think lots of clubs (and I mean clubs not their supporters) took the view that they wouldn't "help" Saracens out when the club was trying to find out if it was possible to get in cap this season. I'd guess at least part of that calculation was that there was going to be a "fire sale" at Saracens at some stage but PRL monstrous act of self-sabotage effectively put an end to any real pressure on Saracens to sort it this season.

My supposition is one big thing has happened since that have made a difference. The club has found out that to a number of their players, and significantly a fair few of the young players that the clubs future is likely to be built on, they still believe in the club and want to be part of that going forward even if it means altering their plans for a season or two.

I may be wrong but I feel like I read of heard something about Earls and Malins salaries being shared at least in part for next season. So maybe Sarries are having to sweeten the pot for clubs who decide to take their players on loan. Still makes it a win win for both parties as far as I can see.

Re: Player rumours
TonyTaff 12 March, 2020 17:45
We will never know the details of the cost sharing.

I won't be 'reading' reports from t'internet!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Player rumours
Duncan96 13 March, 2020 09:24
Nick wrote

"It frequently takes several months for a player to fully integrate with new squad to learn their playing style, develop the understanding of what your team-mates are about to do etc. Unless the Saracens loanees are superbly gifted at the transition the assumption has to be that players will not be at their best until part-way through the season and in some cases there is a risk that just as they start to click the loan period comes to an end. Is that good value for money or are they heavily discounted?"

That might depend on the quality of the coaching staff Nick. We've seen umpteen players come in to Saracens and be superbly effective from the first game. Williams, Daley and a score of others come to mind. Skelton came in initially on a 2 month loan mid season and was effective from day 1 (not as effective as the following season admittedly but that was because his eyes were opened by the conditioning coaches at Saracens and he had a preseason here to get better).

Malins, Earle, Isekwe, Tomkins: after a pre season at their loan clubs I'd bet money they will look great from day 1. After all, they've been superbly coached for years.

"If a squad has a major strategic gap in their skills then how does a 1 year loan help? Surely a club would better served bringing in the suitable player on a longer contract. There may be exceptional circumstances where there is a genuine need for a short-term skill but in most cases all a 1 year loan will do is shift the skills problem back 1 year. Why do these loan clubs think the recruitment market will be better then?"

I can think of many reasons. Here's one. Say you are light in an area, you have a youngster coming through but they could benefit from being eased in for another season and not thrown in the deep end. An international loanee would be just the ticket.

Here's another: you might be light in a position but can't see anyone to bring in you really fancy long term. Good idea to kick the can down the road and see if there are more possibilities in a year's time.

I've no doubt some of the clubs have coaches with impatient owners who therefore feel insecure in their jobs and so will go for short term fixes as you suggest. But there are plenty of sensible reasons for year long signings.

Re: Player rumours
beshocked 13 March, 2020 09:43
It's like saying was it beneficial that Saracens had Justin Marshall for 1 year in 2009-10 or Peter Stringer.

I'd say yes.

Bristol are getting two very skillful players for a year who can help Bristol's own players.

Re: Player rumours
#wolfpack 13 March, 2020 10:48
Quote:
beshocked
It's like saying was it beneficial that Saracens had Justin Marshall for 1 year in 2009-10 or Peter Stringer.
I'd say yes.

Bristol are getting two very skillful players for a year who can help Bristol's own players.

Justin Marshall was a 81 cap all black
Peter Stringer had played 98 times for Ireland.

Not sure this comparison is quite right....

Re: Player rumours
tpr's headmistress 13 March, 2020 20:25
Premiership Clubs veto Maro's move to Racing 92 if he still wants to be in England set up. What crock of 'stuff'!

Maro get his move to Racing blocked

Re: Player rumours
Sarriebone 13 March, 2020 20:42
Quote:
tpr's headmistress
Premiership Clubs veto Maro's move to Racing 92 if he still wants to be in England set up. What crock of 'stuff'!
Maro get his move to Racing blocked

Quote:
ďThis goes against the agreement so we are definitely opposed to it,Ē said one club owner.
I wonder who that could have been...

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