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England discpline
Discussion started by Innings , 09 March, 2020 14:16
England discpline
Innings 09 March, 2020 14:16
At some stage Faz has to grow into leadership by example and by word. His first contributions on Saturday included a string of penalties that cost 6 points and much momentum. He then failed entirely to understand or transmit the referee's message that the next offence, by anyone, during the siege by Wales on England's line would lead to a card, so that a minute later Genge was in the bin. Even my wife, not a rugby watcher by choice, called him offside before the whistle went. Tuilagi's shoulder charge deserved red under current interpretations and Leicester will suffer the consequences, exactly as Quins seem probable to suffer from Marler's.

One stupid moment cost France a reasonable shot at the Grand Slam. With a few more minutes on the clock, Wales might well have done England as well. Sooner or later a similar action will cost England an important opportunity. International matches are not where players should be losing their self-control like this. Wales are masters of the wind-up and England are perpetual patsies for it.

Great teams have great team players, not self-indulgent soloists. Faz, in particular, fell into the latter category on Saturday.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: England discpline
beshocked 09 March, 2020 15:31
Agree. Itís a bad sign when your captain is instigating a fight.

Farrell Ė great player but I still donít think heís suitable to be captain. Canít keep his cool, canít communicate with his team.

Heís fine at Saracens because heís surrounded by players who can help him. For England heís a lone soul taking the burden on his shoulders and it shows.

Yes heís still got some of his Sarries buddies but missing the likes of Wray, Wigglesworth, Goode and Barritt.

Saracens have these leaders that England lack and players that ease the pressure.

Re: England discpline
hantssabre 09 March, 2020 15:38
Is it not Barritt that is the Sarries Captain not Farrell? Think George Ford would make a better England captain. Farrell doesnít even seem to do post England match interviews any more on TV. Maybe itís because heís not very good at them or was it because he had to collect the Triple Crown shield?

Re: England discpline
beshocked 09 March, 2020 15:44
Quote:
hantssabre
Is it not Barritt that is the Sarries Captain not Farrell? Think George Ford would make a better England captain. Farrell doesnít even seem to do post England match interviews any more on TV. Maybe itís because heís not very good at them or was it because he had to collect the Triple Crown shield?

Yes Barritt is captain.


No I don't think Ford would make a good captain either.

I'd pick a forward - one of George, Itoje or Curry.

Re: England discpline
hantssabre 09 March, 2020 15:46
Canít really see why Eddie hasnít picked Itoje as he seems the obvious choice but I guess thatís why Eddie is Eddie!

Re: England discpline
BlackheathSarrie 09 March, 2020 15:49
I think Captains are a reflection of their coaches and whilst I'd agree that Farrell has his own issues my feeling is the worst of his behaviour is endorsed and encouraged by Jones.

Re: England discpline
Sarriebone 09 March, 2020 15:49
By all accounts his communication with the team both on and off field is exceptional, Andy Goode even complimented his way of talking with the ref after the Ireland match.

However I agree he does have hot-headed moments on field, the shove that cost us 3 points is a prime example. The push on Biggar I have less issue with as Biggar had deliberately changed his line to impede him chasing his own kick.

Re: England discpline
TonyTaff 09 March, 2020 16:54
Maro Itoje should be the Lions Captain. Whether he follows in the footsteps of Martin Johnson and gets the gig ahead of the national job, or not, I am not bothered.



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Re: England discpline
AP 09 March, 2020 19:51
It's hard to blame Farrell if Genge doesn't heed the message ... Frankly, it was obvious that a team card was coming.

I agree that Faz may not be the best captain, I'm not convinced that a ten (even out of position) should have the job. However, he does a better job than the haters say.



Successful hills are here to stay
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Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

Re: England discpline
beshocked 10 March, 2020 08:55
Quote:
AP
It's hard to blame Farrell if Genge doesn't heed the message ... Frankly, it was obvious that a team card was coming.
I agree that Faz may not be the best captain, I'm not convinced that a ten (even out of position) should have the job. However, he does a better job than the haters say.

Well I guess it depends if you think it's the captain's job to calm the players down, keep discipline.

2 citings with Marler very likely to get banned.

Also Eddie Jones creates the atmosphere that is full of fire.

Genge's interview rant and Eddie Jones rant and Farrell's captaincy epitomise a combative England.


Plenty of talent in the England side which is why they've done well.


Still need some players with some inner zen to settle down the others.

Re: England discpline
AP 10 March, 2020 09:37
Marler was clearly quite calm and enjoying himself - ah, sorry. Perhaps Faz should have asked if everything was OK or was he not feeling himself? - ah, sorry again. Marler won't give a toss (whoops!) about a ban , quite possibly doesn't want to tour this summer and would shrug off being dropped permanently by England.

Not sure what Genge has done wrong - his remark about "sausages" seems to have diffused (confused?) media critics.

I don't recall the high tackle for which Lawes has been cited.

Tuilangi - "unfortunate" in that it was a rugby incident as he was looking to cover North evading the first tackle, but a red card was pretty well inevitable. Especially when Dallaglio opined it was just a penalty.

Jones' incitement to violence was ahead of the France game - that worked well, didn't it.



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

Re: England discpline
#wolfpack 10 March, 2020 10:32
Yawn. Martin Johnson was a right saint on the field wasn't he?

Faz will be skipper because of the way he communicates to his team and how his team react to him, not so the BBC can do a 'what a great guy he is, let's go back to his childhood rugby club' montage the way they do with AWJ or did with Sam Warburton every week.

All this 'he needs to talk to the ref in a nicer manner' thing massively overhyped in my view. If an international ref is genuinely going to be influenced either way by the actions of a captain, he's not much of an international ref.

Re: England discpline
beshocked 10 March, 2020 10:48
Composure is important. Also adapting. Something that cost England the RWC and GS.

Something that has cost England too many games under Jonesí tenure.

Martin Johnson was a RWC and GS winning captain. Farrell is not.

Johnson had some inner zen characters in the squad like JW,Hill and Greenwood.

Jones likes players with a bit of dog/ a bit of bite but I think that Jones needs to put more trust in more players who can calm the hot heads down.

Donít get me wrong itís good to have players like that but I think thereís just too many.

Farrell isnít someone who can tell Genge or Manu to calm down because heís instigating brawls too.

Farrell is fine at Saracens because the squad is different. He's surrounded by calm players, players who can take the burden.

Barritt is a fine leader. He's hard as granite but is calm under pressure. Great discipline, great communicator and organiser.

Look at J.Burger, he was a hard man but not a hot head.


In general Saracens develop players that arenít hot heads.

Rugby is about balance. Just as itís good to have not too many quiet players, itís good not to have too many hot heads.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2020 10:52 by beshocked.

Re: England discpline
nedrichards 10 March, 2020 11:11
beshocked: unless I remember incorrectly wasn't he only grand slam and world cup winning captain in 2003? e.g. when he was 33 at the end of his career. I'm sure he played in the 1995 grand slam but don't think he captained then. All I remember about public comment before 2003 was that England were 'nearly men' who could never get over the line when it mattered. Until they did.

Let's have a look at Owen's career when it's done and see what happens then. Aside from that, I don't disagree with any of the specific points about the game at the weekend. It certainly seems he has a big influence on the team and the way they prepare. I think he'd still have that influence if he wasn't captain but Eddie seems to like him there, possibly because he's such an inked in player that you never have the kind of selection controversies that we've seen in recent years with Borthwick and Hartley.

Re: England discpline
#wolfpack 10 March, 2020 11:31
Faz was very nearly a RWC winning captain...

I just doubt whether Nigel Owens will ever be significantly influenced by any captain of any sort. In terms of pointing out bits and pieces or querying decisions, every player does that these days anyway. Itoje gives away a penalty at the lineout, he asks why that was a penalty, not Farrell; England's scrum gives a penalty away, the reason is explained to Jamie George, not Farrell.

I imagine being a captain at international level (or indeed club level really) is actually about driving the culture around the squad and setting standards of professionalism in training and lifestyle. Not about whether or not you give someone a shove.

Re: England discpline
beshocked 10 March, 2020 11:33
Quote:
nedrichards
beshocked: unless I remember incorrectly wasn't he only grand slam and world cup winning captain in 2003? e.g. when he was 33 at the end of his career. I'm sure he played in the 1995 grand slam but don't think he captained then. All I remember about public comment before 2003 was that England were 'nearly men' who could never get over the line when it mattered. Until they did.
Let's have a look at Owen's career when it's done and see what happens then. Aside from that, I don't disagree with any of the specific points about the game at the weekend. It certainly seems he has a big influence on the team and the way they prepare. I think he'd still have that influence if he wasn't captain but Eddie seems to like him there, possibly because he's such an inked in player that you never have the kind of selection controversies that we've seen in recent years with Borthwick and Hartley.

Well I don't think Farrell is the right man to do it for England.

England have very good players which is why I think they've got some very good wins and some dominant performances but the issues at times are adapting, decision making and discipline.

Farrell himself is a very good player but I don't believe very good player = good captain = right fit.

The captain and coach have to take responsibility for that.

I think England have better players than every other 6 nations side at the moment.

Sometimes it comes down to simply having better players. I felt that way with England vs Wales.

It is up to the captain and coach to make the most of the resources available.


I don't think Brad Barritt is the best player at Saracens but he's by far the best leader/captain/organiser.

Saracens have had a nice balance. England IMO don't.


England got to a RWC 2007 final despite a lack of comparative quality. 2019 RWC final was definitely winnable and England probably should have.


When the opposition is well organised like France and SA, is when England have struggled.

When the power game is not working England need a plan B and C.


Japan in the RWC got as far as they could on limited resources. Japan were very well organised and coached but did not IMO have the star quality to get any further.


France's poor discipline showed that a more talented side in terms of personnel can lose to a more organised opponent.




wolfpack nearly isn't good enough. I felt like England capitulated in that final and Jones and Farrell must take responsibility.

Even at half time there was time to turn things around.

There's not a lack of quality in this England side. It is composure, decision making, discipline, adapting that still needs work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2020 11:36 by beshocked.

Re: England discpline
TonyTaff 11 March, 2020 11:19
Quote:
nedrichards
beshocked: unless I remember incorrectly wasn't he only grand slam and world cup winning captain in 2003? e.g. when he was 33 at the end of his career. I'm sure he played in the 1995 grand slam but don't think he captained then. All I remember about public comment before 2003 was that England were 'nearly men' who could never get over the line when it mattered. Until they did.
Let's have a look at Owen's career when it's done and see what happens then. Aside from that, I don't disagree with any of the specific points about the game at the weekend. It certainly seems he has a big influence on the team and the way they prepare. I think he'd still have that influence if he wasn't captain but Eddie seems to like him there, possibly because he's such an inked in player that you never have the kind of selection controversies that we've seen in recent years with Borthwick and Hartley.

Jonno captained the 1997 Lions before he was England captain, ergo he wasn't England captain in 95. I would be entirely content if Maro were to follow in his footsteps. Faz may be Yoda's cup of tea, he may not be Gats'. Furthermore, Maro fits McGeehan and Telfer's template for a Lions' captain in SA - A dominant presence at the toss etc.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: England discpline
nedrichards 11 March, 2020 12:45
Yeah, I didn't mention it above to avoid distracting from Faz but even from when he was at University/England U20's captain Maro has struck me as An Extremely Impressive Person. I would happily have him captain anything.

Re: England discpline
JL904 11 March, 2020 14:02
@ Tony

"Faz may be Yoda's cup of tea, he may not be Gats'."

Gats is on record as saying that Faz is in the mix as a strong candidate for Lions skipper next year, especially if AWJ (the obvious choice for many people) is not available for selection.

I'm with you personally in backing Maro. Besides place kicking duties, if Faz plays 10 or 12 he'll be running attack or defence respectively - he doesn't need any more on his plate, and the XV should be full of leaders for different aspects of each match.

Re: England discpline
AlanE 11 March, 2020 16:32
Will Carling was still England captain at the 1995 RWC. I can still hear him making a comment to the effect that Jonah Lomu (RIP) was a freak and if he never played against him again it would be too soon.

Old Bumface played 12.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard


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