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Wasps Bond Price
Discussion started by Blanchefleur , 17 March, 2020 18:15
Wasps Bond Price
Blanchefleur 17 March, 2020 18:15
Crashed by 60% today to close at £27 from £68
Par is £100

Re: Wasps Bond Price
myleftboot 17 March, 2020 19:10
What does the par mean please? I get the crashing price!

Re: Wasps Bond Price
boomer! 17 March, 2020 19:21
Quote:
myleftboot
What does the par mean please? I get the crashing price!

Par is the face value off the bond express as 100 for the purpose of trading and redemptions.

In most cases a bond will be redeemed at par value (the face) irrespective of what you have paid for it.

As most bonds carry a coupon, traders use the terminology of par to determine whether a bond is priced above or below its par (100) value.

If the bond carries a very high coupon, in a period of very low rates you could pay above par for that note.

eg pay £105 for a face value of £100. ie you'd get less back than you paid...however the higher coupon would compensate for that apparent loss of capital value.

In the case of Wasps note, if you paid £27 for a note that could redeem at £100 (so long as Wasps don't go bust) that would give a handsome return. My bond calculator batteries have run out and I don't have coupon or maturity dae details but still if it is trading at £27 it might be worth a tickle for those that have money to burn

REMEMBER THE PRICE OF YOU INVESTMENT CAN GO DOWN AS WELL AS UP(Sm102) .



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17/03/2020 19:39 by boomer!.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
boomer! 17 March, 2020 19:50
A crude calculation excluding the coupon gives you a compounded annual/annual yield to maturity of 92.45% for a note with two years left to run......which is slightly better than the Flex account at the Halifax.

(Sm100)



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Innings 17 March, 2020 20:09
Quote:
A crude calculation excluding the coupon gives you a compounded annual/annual yield to maturity of 92.45% for a note with two years left to run......which is slightly better than the Flex account at the Halifax.

If it looks too good to be true, it's too good to be true.

A rule of financial life that served me well in the financial world for 4o years.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
AP 17 March, 2020 21:20
Another way of looking at it is that the pricing suggests you could get about 30 back at redemption, not the full 100, so Wasps are pretty well bust unless the owner puts in more capital to repay the bonds.



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Re: Wasps Bond Price
boomer! 17 March, 2020 22:45
Quote:
Innings
Quote:
A crude calculation excluding the coupon gives you a compounded annual/annual yield to maturity of 92.45% for a note with two years left to run......which is slightly better than the Flex account at the Halifax.

If it looks too good to be true, it's too good to be true.

A rule of financial life that served me well in the financial world for 4o years.

Absolutely.
Buying a bond at 27% of its face value is not something for the faint hearted.
But one mans junk is another man's treasure.
You don't have to hold to maturity.
Buying at 27 and selling at 35 still gives a tidy profit.

Dissclaimer:- This is not a trade recommendation nor am I providing any form of financial advice whatsoever.



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
TAD1971 18 March, 2020 12:07
Unless I missed it I canít believe there isnít any mention of this on the first page of the wasps board but there are loads of threads still about us, including one saying the worst thing about Coronavirus is it could save us from relegation (highly unlikely imo).

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Sarriebone 18 March, 2020 12:15
Quote:
TAD1971
Unless I missed it I canít believe there isnít any mention of this on the first page of the wasps board but there are loads of threads still about us, including one saying the worst thing about Coronavirus is it could save us from relegation (highly unlikely imo).
There's a "Wasps Finances" thread that covers it

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Blanchefleur 18 March, 2020 13:01
Not on their other site ..once a wasp...and no mention at all of their interim results.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
tpr's headmistress 18 March, 2020 13:17
It's on their previous RN site.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
BlackheathSarrie 18 March, 2020 14:16
TAD1971 there is a thread covering it and another that mentions it in passing. I made reference to it in one of their threads when the financial results were posted and it wasn't well received.

Personally one of the things I used to enjoy most about SN was that you had all the clubs in one site and most boards were very welcoming unless you went there to cause trouble. I'm not sure that's the case anymore but for myself I think I will leave them to it now. It's too tempting to make a silly remark (I'm talking about myself) in response to some of their more irritating posters but the reality is Wasps and all the clubs in the Premiership have a majority of great supporters and if those clubs struggle or Wasps were to go under it would be bad for rugby as a whole IMO.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
nedrichards 18 March, 2020 15:54
Yeah, I mean when the Sarries financial results for this year come out they're not going to make very pretty reading either. It is very interesting though, I was a big proponent of the model at the time because I didn't see how the core stadium rental business could lose with the way concert trends etc. were going (that seemed to be the view of the Coventry City hedge fund owners too!). More fool me because it clearly didn't work out that way, even ignoring the rugby business success or failure.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Sorry Sarrie 19 March, 2020 07:22
Quote:
TAD1971
Unless I missed it I canít believe there isnít any mention of this on the first page of the wasps board but there are loads of threads still about us, including one saying the worst thing about Coronavirus is it could save us from relegation (highly unlikely imo).

Posted this separately although it would have sat nicely here

[www.rugbypass.com]



My wife and I are on the verge of splitting up because of my obsession with rugby.
I've decided to give it one last try......

Re: Wasps Bond Price
AlanE 19 March, 2020 13:30
Quote:
Blanchefleur
Crashed by 60% today to close at £27 from £68
Par is £100

Down further to £24 today apparently.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

Re: Wasps Bond Price
maynas 20 March, 2020 10:21
That rugby pass article is pretty poor. Clubs with no money chasing Newcastle through the courts just to help mi learned friends Pay off their loss of fees during lockdown ? And with months of backlog of cases? Stupid,

Re: Wasps Bond Price
maynas 21 March, 2020 10:25
Worse to come now. Players being asked to take pay cuts to stop clubs going under. Newcastle stuffed as all their remaining games cancelled. Possibly 2 or more clubs going under in the Pre. Players threatening strikes if pay cuts maintained (according to papers). Prem Rugby may desperately need us next year! We are reported as one who has asked players to take a wage cut.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
nedrichards 21 March, 2020 21:01
From the guardian:

Quote:
Some clubs needed to make the pay cuts immediately while others had more slack but they united in deciding they were all in it together and needed to make a collective decision. To do otherwise ran the risk that the players in clubs whose financial position was precarious would consider themselves free agents because their contract had been breached and look elsewhere.
Only Exeter demurred, which did not surprise the other 11 as the Chiefsí chairman, Tony Rowe, has become increasingly detached from the others during the course of the season. Six clubs have confirmed the cuts: Bristol, Wasps, Gloucester, Worcester, Leicester and Saracens with Northampton, London Irish, Bath, Sale and Harlequins expected to follow early next week.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Innings 22 March, 2020 09:57
"Chiefs' chairman Tony Rowe has become increasingly detached from the others..."

Well, what a surprise.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
AlanE 22 March, 2020 11:03
Quote:
Innings
"Chiefs' chairman Tony Rowe has become increasingly detached from the others..."
Well, what a surprise.

Actually that was a surprise to me, not because of the man himself but because of the unity which the other 11 seem to have displayed against us.

I wonder how the detachment is showing itself elsewhere.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

Re: Wasps Bond Price
AlanE 22 March, 2020 11:04
Quote:
Innings
"Chiefs' chairman Tony Rowe has become increasingly detached from the others..."
Well, what a surprise.

Actually that was a surprise to me, not because of the man himself but because of the unity which the other 11 seem to have displayed against us.

I wonder how the detachment is showing itself elsewhere.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Innings 22 March, 2020 12:32
It may be relevant realisation that the Premiership is so fragile that this virus could cause several clubs to fold, and the Premiership be forced to re-think the holier-than thou attitude, largely driven by one or two chairmen. The Premiership needs a cohort of competitive clubs and, if two or three disappear, the survivors will need credible replacements, whatever the back story.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Blanchefleur 28 March, 2020 12:44
In 6 weeks the interim coupon of £1.1m is due for payment against a background of no income from home games, the hotel and casino. On top of normal losses averaging £800,000 per month it is a lot of money to find. Maybe CVC will step in?

Re: Wasps Bond Price
bigfecker 28 March, 2020 15:07
I suspect two options;

1. Owner puts in about £4M.
2. Wasps go bust.

Flip of a coin which one I suspect.

RFU have no money to support 3 -4 PRL clubs and 100's of lower clubs.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
myleftboot 28 March, 2020 20:13
I'm sure Lawrence of Wycombia could lend a few quid..... Er, maybe not.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
siNBin 28 March, 2020 21:11
The owners might step in but I think the net result of clubs going bust would be for CVC to step in, buy clubs and franchise them to other parties. I suspect that CVC have sufficient cash to support a small number of clubs until they can find franchisees. If they dont , their investment in PRL and maybe 6N gets kicked into row Z.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Sorry Sarrie 29 March, 2020 15:01
Quote:
myleftboot
I'm sure Lawrence of Wycombia could lend a few quid..... Er, maybe not.

Unlikely - The Daily Fail says he's spent it all on hookers & coke allegedly! (Sm22)

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Innings 29 March, 2020 15:09
Like every other private equity business, CVC will be inundated with cash calls from the companies in which they invest. There are going to be some hard decisions about which businesses they do support and which they have to let sink or swim. Rugby is a very small part of their overall portfolio, and could be one that they can support without straining much. It could also be a little distraction that they don't see as a core strategic asset, in which case rugby could find that the new partner is not going to help. The decision will be a hard-nosed business case, not a sport supporter's whimsy.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
ComeOnSarries 29 March, 2020 17:13
My understanding is that CVC bought a 20% stake in PRL. I canít see how they could then take a stake in any individual club as that would give an immediate significant conflict of interest. Clubs in financial difficulty will need to find other sources of funding and these are going to be scarce in the coming months. Difficult days lie ahead.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
boomer! 29 March, 2020 21:52
Quote:
boomer!
Quote:
Innings
Quote:
A crude calculation excluding the coupon gives you a compounded annual/annual yield to maturity of 92.45% for a note with two years left to run......which is slightly better than the Flex account at the Halifax.

If it looks too good to be true, it's too good to be true.

A rule of financial life that served me well in the financial world for 4o years.

Absolutely.
Buying a bond at 27% of its face value is not something for the faint hearted.
But one mans junk is another man's treasure.
You don't have to hold to maturity.
Buying at 27 and selling at 35 still gives a tidy profit.

Dissclaimer:- This is not a trade recommendation nor am I providing any form of financial advice whatsoever.


COB: 27th March it seemingly is BID 47 OFFERED 53

Nice profit if you bought at 27 ten days ago.



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Innings 30 March, 2020 15:22
That wild fluctuation suggest that whilst nobody has any idea about the safety of the bonds, a tiny number are willing to accept their losses and get out, whilst another tiny number are willing to accept the risk to get in.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
boomer! 31 March, 2020 16:40
Quote:
Innings
That wild fluctuation suggest that whilst nobody has any idea about the safety of the bonds, a tiny number are willing to accept their losses and get out, whilst another tiny number are willing to accept the risk to get in.

Absolutely, junk bonds (for that is probably the category the Wasps Finance plc 6.5% of 2022 now find itself in) are not for the faint of hearted but, one mans junk...ÖÖÖÖ..



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
TonyTaff 31 March, 2020 18:04
12% spread!

One would need inside info to dip one's toe in that water!



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Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
boomer! 31 March, 2020 21:36
Quote:
TonyTaff
12% spread!
One would need inside info to dip one's toe in that water!

On a bond that went from 68 to 27 then a mid price of 50 in two weeks I'd suggest that six point spread is fair for a junk bond.

Lets face it,

1) If you think that offer at 53 is cheap then the spread is irrelevant.

2) If you are desperate to cut your sinking position then that 47 bid could be a cheap cut.

In my time I have dealt on 120% vs 100% GBP deposit spread. I gave the 100% bid and the next price was 80% vs 60% and I have traded on FX cable spread of 100 pips bid/offered when mkt is normally 3 to 5 pips.

Needs must sometimes.



It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

Re: Wasps Bond Price
Statesman 31 March, 2020 23:17
Quote:
boomer!
Quote:
TonyTaff
12% spread!
One would need inside info to dip one's toe in that water!

On a bond that went from 68 to 27 then a mid price of 50 in two weeks I'd suggest that six point spread is fair for a junk bond.

Lets face it,

1) If you think that offer at 53 is cheap then the spread is irrelevant.

2) If you are desperate to cut your sinking position then that 47 bid could be a cheap cut.

In my time I have dealt on 120% vs 100% GBP deposit spread. I gave the 100% bid and the next price was 80% vs 60% and I have traded on FX cable spread of 100 pips bid/offered when mkt is normally 3 to 5 pips.

Needs must sometimes.

On the 2 week journey from 68 to 27 and then to 50 do you know how many Bonds were actually traded?


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