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Tigers get tough
Discussion started by Innings , 01 July, 2020 18:20
Tigers get tough
Innings 01 July, 2020 18:20
I don't like to see any club in dispute with their players. I don't like to see any player forced to change employers against their own wishes, nor against the wishes of the people who pay the bills. How has rugby come to this?

Manu and others told to find new employers at this stage of the year cannot be happy. If the club has failed to make the half dozen accept the case for reductions, then as employers they have to look at paying out in full on the contracts.

Will this improve the standing of rugby in general? Of Tigers in their own supporters' eyes? In the eyes of sponsors at Welford Road. This story has a very unhappy feel to it already, and has plenty of room to get worse.

The risk of rugby reverting to amateurism at all levels must be increasing.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 01 July, 2020 18:27
Whoa, I guess you're right, legally I can't see Tigger's have a leg to stand on!

Re: Tigers get tough
lechef 01 July, 2020 18:35
If they don't they could be in breach of the salary cap, fined, deducted points .

Re: Tigers get tough
OldMarovian 01 July, 2020 18:56
One problem they may run up against is the same one we had when the SCM decided we were over and that is that paying off contracts to get under the cap (in Tigers case possibly settling contracts after players claimed their contracts were altered/terminated illegally) counts against the cap. So unless those players choose to walk away from their contracts Tigers could owe 100Ks against the cap for players who won't play for them. Very tough.

Re: Tigers get tough
tigerburnie 01 July, 2020 19:42
Gossip is Genge and Ford are staying but the others are gone
[www.msn.com]

Re: Tigers get tough
The Bard 01 July, 2020 20:30
Tuilagi not showing much gratitude to Leicester for paying him for several years of inactivity. Be astounded if anyone in England goes anywhere near him.

Re: Tigers get tough
Barty II 02 July, 2020 07:16
On the flipside, ignoring whatever it is that got them to this point, it does seem a little off that a player earning half a million won't take a cut when its reported 31 members of staff have to be made redundant

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 02 July, 2020 07:59
Quote:
The Bard
Tuilagi not showing much gratitude to Leicester for paying him for several years of inactivity. Be astounded if anyone in England goes anywhere near him.
That's one take, another is that they already agreed a large salary reduction, 25%, then their employer turns around and wants to help themselves to even more? My company have taken a big hit financially, I ain't taking no cut in pay!!

Re: Tigers get tough
Innings 02 July, 2020 11:16
This is actually very much like British industry, perhaps global industry, writ small. Theories of 'efficient' balance sheet management have led to using debt to grow businesses of all kinds, with actual cash investment by the shareholders treated as being 'inefficient.' To build reserves against a rainy day that might never happen is 'inefficient', especially when money is cheap (low interest rates) and banks are always willing to lend more.

It is an old saying: When recession comes, it's the debt that gets you.

Rugby has become a professional business with amateur finances, amateur business plans, amateur governance and grossly over-leveraged balance sheets at all levels, from international unions to local clubs. In the end debt has to be repaid, and the day of reckoning arrives when you can neither repay the debts nor persuade a new lender to take them on from the one who wants repayment. Just ask the RFU about how they plan to cope with their balance sheet, and the answer is that there are two plans. One is to cut all the assistance to the grass roots that they claim to be a core part of their reason for existence. The other is to 'sweat the assets harder'. In the case of sport, that of course is literal, rather than the usual metaphorical use of the word sweat.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Tigers get tough
Duncan96 02 July, 2020 16:31
Tuilagi has 2 choices. Not play and collect the salary Leicester contractually owe him or go somewhere like Racing. If he goes and gets paid more than Leicester pay him I dont think he has a claim because hes not worse off.

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 02 July, 2020 18:29
It will be an interesting one if it ever reaches court (which I doubt...) One wonders what his injury record would be under a more cohesive coaching unit

Re: Tigers get tough
The Bard 02 July, 2020 19:28
Not sure when you look at say Billy and Max Malins you could make a case wed have been any luckier with him.
Its head in the sand to think you are immune from your employers financial problems just because you have a contract.

Re: Tigers get tough
nedrichards 02 July, 2020 19:48
You're not, but the onus is on them to offer a meaningful restructuring. E.g push. extra guaranteed years well past his prime baseball style. Some teams there are still taking salary cap charges for players who retired more than ten years ago! Maybe even an offer of swapping the debt for equity, some kind of ability to participate in the upside. There was no need to create an adverserial situation.

Re: Tigers get tough
The Bard 02 July, 2020 22:42
Rugby is in the leisure sector. Look at the decimation of the dining and airline businesses. Times are very hard and will remain so for years, earnings are inevitably going to have to take a hit if clubs are to survive.

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 03 July, 2020 07:11
If Manu could only get a contract of, say, 50p a week, he could probably get Tigers to make up the shortfall...He will end up at Sale I reckon

Re: Tigers get tough
nedrichards 03 July, 2020 11:19
The Bard: I don't disagree with you, but those business' which say "we will sack you unless you agree to be worse off, oh, and we're going to keep on making this threat again and again to salami slice away your rights and compensation" are going to get a very different reaction from those that say "we're all in this together, we value you as a person and want you to be involved in this business/club for the rest of your life, let's work on a way that we can defer some of these obligations with a structure that makes it up to you later or aligns your incentives to participate in any recovery".

Burning your bridges with your game changing player, whose family connections have given your club such a recruitment advantage and who will remain iconic for supporters for years to come just seems incredibly short sighted. As Leicester you want Manu doing corporate entertainment for you in 20 years time reminding people that you're the biggest club in England and always have been - like seeing Tony Underwood or Jonno does today. And more urgently, in a Sarries free season your club would have been relegated and have *even less* revenue, if you want to stay up next year then you're going to need some players and neither they or their agents are happy with you right now.

Re: Tigers get tough
tpr's headmistress 03 July, 2020 11:32
I noted during the interview with their CEO(?) that she was saying they'd offered educational and work experience type incentives to ready the players for after rugby. You would have hoped that these types of schemes were already in place, as they are with the much criticised Saracens.

Re: Tigers get tough
JL904 03 July, 2020 12:05
Quote:
The Bard
Tuilagi not showing much gratitude to Leicester for paying him for several years of inactivity. Be astounded if anyone in England goes anywhere near him.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair, Bard. Whilst it's true that Tiggers looked after him through years of injury, one could argue that he repaid some of that faith by turning down a 3 year 2.5M contract offer from Racing 92 when he was fit again.



Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please - Niccolo Machiavelli

Re: Tigers get tough
The Bard 03 July, 2020 13:08
And not forgetting the time he was in trouble with the law either. I guess his England ambitions would have been a factor in turning down Racing

Re: Tigers get tough
The Substandard Biscuit 03 July, 2020 18:03
This dispute is a disgrace. Tuilagi is thick, but sensible enough to know the way he plays the game that the next charge into a defensive line could be his last. He was paid because he's great at that, via a legally binding contract. It's simple, Tigers will have to pay.

If however he disappear off to Racing, Montpellier, Toulon or Clermont, for money the situation gets hazier, but it would be an entirely reasonable thing for Manu to do. But one thing is clear, he wouldn't be able to play for England while in France, and the RFU have already confirmed this. If he went, Eddie would be seriously @#$%& off.
Interesting then if a couple of English Saracens decided to join him over there for a year? We know Racing were keen to get Maro 1mil for a year there!); nothing has been said formally yet about Mako or Owen and what they are doing next year (even though it's unlikely - I hope) ? That would take 4 of the starting England XV away, and might force the RFU's hand to change the rather stupid rule that foreign based players are disqualified for playing for England, in these rather strange times, which frankly are 'exceptional'.

The question is: Will the stuffed shirted old farts change their minds ?

Re: Tigers get tough
The Bard 03 July, 2020 23:38
The simple fact is that player salaries got inflated to levels that were not sustainable. The money never was there and has shrunk even further. Im afraid its either wage cuts or job cuts. But the salary cap is only going back to the level it was a few years ago, so in reality this is not as bad as it might seem.

Re: Tigers get tough
tigerburnie 04 July, 2020 16:19
The PRL were instigators in the rule that England will not select players from abroad, except in injury crisis, not that I am particularly defending the RFU.

Re: Tigers get tough
OldMarovian 04 July, 2020 16:45
Quote:
myleftboot
If Manu could only get a contract of, say, 50p a week, he could probably get Tigers to make up the shortfall...He will end up at Sale I reckon

I'd suggest that the compromise is obvious. Tuilagi spends a year with us in the Championship mainly resting and just rocking up for the Leinster (and subsequent? ERCC games) and Internationals with Jones. In the meantime he gets to get himself in top shape for the Lions. We pay him a nominal 1 salary and Tigers cover the rest (if they owe anyone right now it's us or they'd be in the Championship!) In a years time he'll have been able to sort a more organised move to another club.

Obviously not serious and yet ...

Re: Tigers get tough
lechef 04 July, 2020 19:11
Quote:
The Bard
Tuilagi not showing much gratitude to Leicester for paying him for several years of inactivity. Be astounded if anyone in England goes anywhere near him.

Sale Sharks are interested

Re: Tigers get tough
OldMarovian 04 July, 2020 20:45
Quote:
tpr's headmistress
I noted during the interview with their CEO(?) that she was saying they'd offered educational and work experience type incentives to ready the players for after rugby. You would have hoped that these types of schemes were already in place, as they are with the much criticised Saracens.

They largely aren't or are done in a very half-ar$ed way. Listen to guys leaving clubs like Wasps (the young chap who had to retire early and has ended up running a restaurant) or Guy Thompson (via Tigers) or even Cipriani and all talk about having little to no idea what they are going to do once they stop rugby. Less of an issue if you're Cipriani but bad news if you're not.

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 05 July, 2020 05:25
To an extent, with Wasps it's utterly understandable. Years on they still haven't built any proper training ground, continuing at facilities they themselves conceded are 'inadequate'. So where are they going to build an educational program? In Broad Streets groundsman shed?

Re: Tigers get tough
Chris1850 05 July, 2020 09:36
Quote:
lechef
Quote:
The Bard
Tuilagi not showing much gratitude to Leicester for paying him for several years of inactivity. Be astounded if anyone in England goes anywhere near him.

Sale Sharks are interested

Sale are currently always said to be interested in most high profile players that become available at the moment. That's because they now have money and have previously never spent anywhere near to the cap, though they must be close to it now. However Journos have to write something and speculate, so this provides a headline for them. Until Manu or Sale say something themselves, or a journo quotes a credible source, then it is nothing more than unfounded media speculation.

Re: Tigers get tough
Innings 05 July, 2020 10:19
If Tigers do cave in over Manu the effect on squad morale will be interesting.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 11 July, 2020 18:18
Manu due to sign for Sale. A) I'm an effing clairvoyant. And cool smiley Mr Potato Head is a congenital manipulator of the truth, allegedly, so I heard, etc

Re: Tigers get tough
hertsman 12 July, 2020 01:40
If Sale do sign Manu, it would be a good boost to their chances.. 2nd at the moment, going well, add a Tuilagi....maybe Exeter won't win it this year either.

Re: Tigers get tough
TAD1971 12 July, 2020 14:26
I wonder what the Sale players will think if Manu signs. Theyre one of the first to agree to a squad-wife paycut, only to see a huge name on a big salary sign a few weeks later.

Id be @#$%& if it was me

Re: Tigers get tough
GazzaFez 12 July, 2020 15:02
Quote:
TAD1971
Theyre one of the first to agree to a squad-wife paycut
Id be @#$%& if it was me

Top post! I'd like details of how this is done please. (Sm22)

Re: Tigers get tough
Chris1850 12 July, 2020 19:39
Quote:
TAD1971
I wonder what the Sale players will think if Manu signs. Theyre one of the first to agree to a squad-wife paycut, only to see a huge name on a big salary sign a few weeks later.
Id be @#$%& if it was me

Sale have room in the cap with Ashton leaving. They also have a small squad of 33 players. We have no idea what Manu may be on or who is paying the bulk of his salary as Tigers have breached his existing contract.

Don't forget Manu stuck out for his full salary at Tigers. Tigers called his bluff leaving Manu without a club. Allegedly he wants to stay in England to maintain his international career. His choices are therefore very limited. The clubs are in a very strong position at the moment when it comes to players without a club as they are all trying to adjust to the new financial realities and the reduced cap. I doubt very much that Sale are paying him a mega pre-covid salary. More likely on a par with the reduced level Tigers were offering. Still a nice salary though!

Re: Tigers get tough
TOKS 12 July, 2020 21:19
Chris, take it from us, we know how this works. At the moment you are upwardly mobile, you can spend up to the cap and you are improving solidly. So you will in turn be linked with any player who may or may not be on the move.

If we can offer one word of caution, try not to be to be too successful. Couple of Premierships, maybe one European trophy, nothing too eye-catching. We have shown what can happen when the jealousy bunnies are let out out of their hutch.

Enjoy the days ahead as I think you are on the cusp of far more good ones than bad.

Re: Tigers get tough
Bram1ey_Road 13 July, 2020 10:27
Well said. Amateur governance...
What does that remind me of?
At least Tigers can be thankful that its us getting relegated and not them. This season anyway.
Personally Im pleased that not one penny of my money will be spent on propping up a failing supervisory body next season.

Re: Tigers get tough
TAD1971 13 July, 2020 12:23
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
TAD1971
I wonder what the Sale players will think if Manu signs. Theyre one of the first to agree to a squad-wife paycut, only to see a huge name on a big salary sign a few weeks later.
Id be @#$%& if it was me

Sale have room in the cap with Ashton leaving. They also have a small squad of 33 players. We have no idea what Manu may be on or who is paying the bulk of his salary as Tigers have breached his existing contract.

Don't forget Manu stuck out for his full salary at Tigers. Tigers called his bluff leaving Manu without a club. Allegedly he wants to stay in England to maintain his international career. His choices are therefore very limited. The clubs are in a very strong position at the moment when it comes to players without a club as they are all trying to adjust to the new financial realities and the reduced cap. I doubt very much that Sale are paying him a mega pre-covid salary. More likely on a par with the reduced level Tigers were offering. Still a nice salary though!

Not really sure it matters about how much room in the cap there is. Still a massive kick in the balls for the Sale players who agreed to a paycut to help the club survive, only to see an expensive opportunistic signing that no doubt would not have been possible without the paycut. Maybe theyre all happy with it, who knows.

Re: Tigers get tough
Chris1850 13 July, 2020 13:18
Quote:
TAD1971
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
TAD1971
I wonder what the Sale players will think if Manu signs. Theyre one of the first to agree to a squad-wife paycut, only to see a huge name on a big salary sign a few weeks later.
Id be @#$%& if it was me

Sale have room in the cap with Ashton leaving. They also have a small squad of 33 players. We have no idea what Manu may be on or who is paying the bulk of his salary as Tigers have breached his existing contract.

Don't forget Manu stuck out for his full salary at Tigers. Tigers called his bluff leaving Manu without a club. Allegedly he wants to stay in England to maintain his international career. His choices are therefore very limited. The clubs are in a very strong position at the moment when it comes to players without a club as they are all trying to adjust to the new financial realities and the reduced cap. I doubt very much that Sale are paying him a mega pre-covid salary. More likely on a par with the reduced level Tigers were offering. Still a nice salary though!

Not really sure it matters about how much room in the cap there is. Still a massive kick in the balls for the Sale players who agreed to a paycut to help the club survive, only to see an expensive opportunistic signing that no doubt would not have been possible without the paycut. Maybe theyre all happy with it, who knows.

So you would propose that the club simply don't spend up to the cap then and don't sign any more players, for fear of upsetting the existing squad? As I said earlier, we have no idea what Sale are paying or the terms of the deal.

Re: Tigers get tough
Sarriebone 13 July, 2020 13:37
I don't think he's saying they can't spend up to the cap. But if, a month after convincing your entire squad to take a significant pay cut for the good of the club, you then sign a big name player (albeit possibly on a reduced salary as well). Then, personally, I'd struggle to not see it as a bit of a kick in the teeth.

Re: Tigers get tough
nedrichards 13 July, 2020 13:59
Exactly, as ever, it depends how it's communicated:
a) lads, if everyone takes a pay cut then we can get another world class player in who can take us over the top and win things
b) lads, if we all keep your salaries the same then we get to pretend they're 25% lower for the salary cap so we can add more world class players - we've got extra investment to make this work
c) lads, we don't have the cash flow right now, but we've added extra years to the back end of your deals so you'll be made whole and if we hire any new players it'll be through getting extra sponsorship or investment to cover their salaries

Are all ways that this might not be the end of the world but if it's:
d) lads, we don't have any money, we need you all to take a pay cut. oh wait, now you have done we actually had that money all along then - if that happened at my work I'd be looking for another job.

Re: Tigers get tough
TV 13 July, 2020 14:27
Now confirmed on BBC
Link

Re: Tigers get tough
tigerburnie 13 July, 2020 17:41
We will miss him, he was good when with us, sadly recently that wasn't very often.

Re: Tigers get tough
OldMarovian 13 July, 2020 17:44
Quote:
hertsman
If Sale do sign Manu, it would be a good boost to their chances.. 2nd at the moment, going well, add a Tuilagi....maybe Exeter won't win it this year either.

They could be third looking at the squad Bristol have assembled. Bristol v Sale final? yes please.

Re: Tigers get tough
TOKS 13 July, 2020 18:35
Given the time and effort Tony Rowe and David Ellis expended removing (what they perceived to be) their greatest obstacle to success, I'm not sure I'd ever stop chuckling if they then failed to win it in their "un-obstructed" seasons.

If they failed to even make the final I suspect that would increase to a guffaw.

Re: Tigers get tough
myleftboot 13 July, 2020 20:31
TOKs, it would be awesome! But not if Diamond was the beneficiary.

Re: Tigers get tough
hertsman 14 July, 2020 05:59
The great unknown is of course the complete loss in momentum each side had. It will be interesting to see who picks up quickly again, including us (even though more academic for the table). It just takes Exeter to have a couple of early losses before they get going, and the table will look different. Even Leicester might treat it as a new starting point particularly with the changes in coaching team and is therefore a trial run for next season proper, so could string some decent results together.

Re: Tigers get tough
JL904 14 July, 2020 11:33
Quote:
myleftboot
TOKs, it would be awesome! But not if Diamond was the beneficiary.

Indeed mlb. Choosing between Exeter/Rowe or Sale/Diamond is rather like deciding whether to be poked in the eye with a sharp stick or being kicked in the gonads with a diver's boot.

So Brizzle under the guidance of Pat Lam it is then ?

Re: Tigers get tough
Sarriebone 14 July, 2020 12:05
Quote:
JL904
Quote:
myleftboot
TOKs, it would be awesome! But not if Diamond was the beneficiary.

Indeed mlb. Choosing between Exeter/Rowe or Sale/Diamond is rather like deciding whether to be poked in the eye with a sharp stick or being kicked in the gonads with a diver's boot.

So Brizzle under the guidance of Pat Lam it is then ?
Plus they've got two Sarries in their ranks now winking smiley

Re: Tigers get tough
TOKS 14 July, 2020 15:49
Quote:
JL904
Quote:
myleftboot
TOKs, it would be awesome! But not if Diamond was the beneficiary.

Indeed mlb. Choosing between Exeter/Rowe or Sale/Diamond is rather like deciding whether to be poked in the eye with a sharp stick or being kicked in the gonads with a diver's boot.

So Brizzle under the guidance of Pat Lam it is then ?

We've got form with him as well (haven't we, Matt Leek?!).

LOL

Re: Tigers get tough
TonyTaff 16 July, 2020 08:20
(Sm22)



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