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"THERE HAVE BEEN MANY PLAYERS WHO HAVE BLED BLACK AND RED
OVER THE YEARS BUT NONE MORESO THAN BRAD BARRITT
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Excellent Guardian Article
Discussion started by AB , 25 September, 2020 09:12
Excellent Guardian Article
AB 25 September, 2020 09:12
very well written and concise
[www.theguardian.com]

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
siNBin 25 September, 2020 09:45
I like the - "Its about the how, not the who". I think that really encapsulates the spirit we have seen especially this year.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
jonnybrowne 25 September, 2020 10:56
Quote:
siNBin
I like the - "Its about the how, not the who". I think that really encapsulates the spirit we have seen especially this year.

Absolutely - and it was a pleasure to read, a fair and well-balanced piece.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
TOKS 25 September, 2020 12:11
I'm going to make two points here combining two threads. Apologies but they read better together.

Firstly, an excellent article and those last few comments are telling. Even if we had exceeded the cap it would only have given us maybe one, possibly two players depending on salary levels. That wouldn't have made a jot of difference as coaching and team spirit is a dozen times more important.

I'm sure that irks others supporters. As I'm sure does the thorough (non PRL style) investigation that a couple of the broadsheets did that revealed that the very worst we did was poor/incompetent/arrogant reporting (and, believe me, as Saracens fans of long standing, we can certainly believe that).

The thread on the Wasps board about us is an interesting one. Lots of different views there (in fact from memory one poster does tellingly refer to our "supine friends in the media" as highlighted above). But the fact it's on Wasps board is interesting. Firstly, they may be on the point of some financial problems of their own with the bond payment in November (which I certainly don't wish on them by the way).

Secondly, some of their long-standing and more reasoned supporters must still breath a large sigh of relief that the salary cap was not policed with such zeal in the period 2002 - 2007. Look at the squad list from that time which is basically a "whos who" of the superstars of that epoch. Then wonder to yourself how they were accommodated at an average salary of £35K per man (the salary cap only went over £2 million in 2007 before advancing quite sharply).

We were only investigated because of incessant pressure on PRL from other clubs. It's interesting that Wasps' halcyon period of dominance never attracted the level of suspicion and jealousy that ours did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/09/2020 12:17 by TOKS.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
OldMarovian 25 September, 2020 14:10
Agree that the article is well written and makes some interesting points.

Quote:
TOKS
Even if we had exceeded the cap it would only have given us maybe one, possibly two players depending on salary levels. That wouldn't have made a jot of difference as coaching and team spirit is a dozen times more important.

I think what irks some other supporters is they still see a high level of denial at the club.

We did exceed the cap. That's fact rather than speculation at this point.

I agree regarding coaching but we simply don't know how that extra money mattered or was used. You say two players but maybe it's not being able to keep 4 or 5 of the next generation that we're looking to build on? Pointless to speculate in some way but I don't think its acurate to say it wouldn't have made a jot of difference.

I'm 100% with some in feeling that after the fact we were stitched up but both the other members of PRL and the media. Having said that none of it ever gets to this stage if Nigel Wray runs it past the SCM properly. I think we need to own that rather than just feel the World is against us.

As for the Wasps stuff they are a great club who unfortunately have some of the more noisy Saracens-bashers.
Like you I'm pretty skeptical that any side with sustained sucess has been able to do so legally given what we have found out about ours.
I remeber one of the commentators saying about us that one of the big signs was a stable squad and retaining all your top talent. This is something that certainly applies to the Wasps, Tigers even Bath teams who has sustained success. We'll never know for usre but every time the salary cap has gone up since it was introduced it there have been rumours that at least in part it was because one or more teams were already spending beyond it. I really hope with our punishment those days are over and we can see competition on a level playing field.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
TOKS 25 September, 2020 15:55
Quote:
OldMarovian
Having said that none of it ever gets to this stage if Nigel Wray runs it past the SCM properly. I think we need to own that rather than just feel the World is against us.

Oh, don't get me wrong, OM, I for one completely own that. The major change to the regulations in 2015 was doesn't matter what you are doing, whether you think it is compliant or not, you run it past us first. When the papers discovered we hadn't I have to say I wasn't the slightest bit surprised. As a club we have always been a complete and utter shambles off the pitch. With regard to the SC regulations we were shown to be arrogant and negligent in the extreme. Whether we deserve to be relegated for that is always a debating point but the fact is we have been.

On a lighter note you're right about Tigers, Bath and Wasps. About 15-20 years ago they never seemed to ever lose any of their players and would have always been the ones expected to get to the final. No one batted an eyelid. It's only since the park team playing on dog p** alley in North London became successful that there's been a problem!

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
mixmastermatt 26 September, 2020 08:26
Quote:
TOKS
On a lighter note you're right about Tigers, Bath and Wasps. About 15-20 years ago they never seemed to ever lose any of their players and would have always been the ones expected to get to the final. No one batted an eyelid. It's only since the park team playing on dog p** alley in North London became successful that there's been a problem!

Nobody seems to be batting much of an eyelid towards a certain team in the South West either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/09/2020 10:45 by mixmastermatt.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
OldMarovian 26 September, 2020 09:45
Absolutely TOKS.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
Sorries2020 27 September, 2020 14:46
Quote:
TOKS
I'm going to make two points here combining two threads. Apologies but they read better together.
Firstly, an excellent article and those last few comments are telling. Even if we had exceeded the cap it would only have given us maybe one, possibly two players depending on salary levels. That wouldn't have made a jot of difference as coaching and team spirit is a dozen times more important.

I'm sure that irks others supporters. As I'm sure does the thorough (non PRL style) investigation that a couple of the broadsheets did that revealed that the very worst we did was poor/incompetent/arrogant reporting (and, believe me, as Saracens fans of long standing, we can certainly believe that).

The thread on the Wasps board about us is an interesting one. Lots of different views there (in fact from memory one poster does tellingly refer to our "supine friends in the media" as highlighted above). But the fact it's on Wasps board is interesting. Firstly, they may be on the point of some financial problems of their own with the bond payment in November (which I certainly don't wish on them by the way).

Secondly, some of their long-standing and more reasoned supporters must still breath a large sigh of relief that the salary cap was not policed with such zeal in the period 2002 - 2007. Look at the squad list from that time which is basically a "whos who" of the superstars of that epoch. Then wonder to yourself how they were accommodated at an average salary of £35K per man (the salary cap only went over £2 million in 2007 before advancing quite sharply).

We were only investigated because of incessant pressure on PRL from other clubs. It's interesting that Wasps' halcyon period of dominance never attracted the level of suspicion and jealousy that ours did.

If , If? I didn’t think there was anybody around who still thought there was an if.

I’m sure if it was only an if, the club would not have accepted the financial penalty, the points deduction, the second points deduction, the relegation, and the subsequent financial penalty that comes with being in the Championship for a year, (which might now maybe for two years if they don’t get playing).

And if the cap had only been exceeded by enough to give ‘’ maybe one, possibly two additional players’’, then only ‘’one or maybe two players’’, would have been required to leave to meet the salary cap. But nine first team players left and a further six first team players have had to go on loan, to meet the salary cap.

I think this should give you some idea how much over the cap the club were, and why they didn’t want their accounts properly looked into.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
Eric Browett 27 September, 2020 15:13
The players who left to go on loan went to keep themselves in the international frame and to develop their careers. If we can't afford them they won't come back, but I suspect they all will.

Some of the players who left were because of injury or retirement.

Some left to trim cap; Skelton, Titi, possibly Spencer.

They didn't all leave because we were that far over the cap.

Re: Excellent Guardian Article
Rinkadink 28 September, 2020 00:10
Quote:
mixmastermatt
Quote:
TOKS
On a lighter note you're right about Tigers, Bath and Wasps. About 15-20 years ago they never seemed to ever lose any of their players and would have always been the ones expected to get to the final. No one batted an eyelid. It's only since the park team playing on dog p** alley in North London became successful that there's been a problem!

Nobody seems to be batting much of an eyelid towards a certain team in the South West either.

Which team is that?


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