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Quote:@Hydor18
I work closely with the rural sector in Wales (I'm not Welsh, just to be clear!), and without a shadow of a doubt, Brexit will devastate UK agriculture.
90% of Welsh lamb exports are to the EU.
Most, if not all, upland farm incomes are underpinned by EU money.
Any trade deal with the US, Australia, New Zealand, or any number of South American countries will give them the right to sell their beef and lamb here, which they can produce more cheaply and are allowed to use growth hormones and antibiotics without regulation.
It's a perfect storm.
And yet the farming community voted en masse to leave the EU.
Could the phrase 'turkeys voting for Christmas' any more appropriate?
Quote:@Hydor18
Note there is no limit as to the time...
Quote:Which Tyler
Also note that "acceptance" as pretty much everyone has accepted Brexit - doesn't mean that they agree with the decision, or that they should stop pointing out where processes could be improved etc etc.
There's a reason it's "acceptance" not "approval"
Quote:hemington
The whole purpose of the change curve is to help managers understand how to pull their troops through the change. This is mainly done by being open and honest, listening, explaining and dealing with any questions as they arrive. I haven't seen a lot of that in this Brexit means Brexit (or is it Brexit means Red, blue, White and now Orange) world. No one seems to know what we want, what we are asking for and what we are going to get so the curve can't possibly work yet - everyone is on the down slope (although many wion't admit it)
Quote:jayeatman
As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance.
Quote:SubstituteQuote:jayeatman
As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance.
There is a thin line between resisting the change (leaving the EU) and wishing to see it fail - bringing hardship on fellow citizens (some of whom will have voted remain) - to overturn a democratic decision.
Not saying you've crossed it, but some will have.
Quote:SubstituteQuote:jayeatman
As I genuinely believe Brexit will be bad for the country I think it is my duty to resist it. I don't buy this Brexiteer argument that I'm being unpatriotic and undermining their negotiating stance.
There is a thin line between resisting the change (leaving the EU) and wishing to see it fail - bringing hardship on fellow citizens (some of whom will have voted remain) - to overturn a democratic decision.
Not saying you've crossed it, but some will have.
Quote:Substitute
Then we're back to saying the EU is a crutch - that the UK is nothing (impoverished) without the EU..
Quote:Substitute
Then we're back to saying the EU is a crutch - that the UK is nothing (impoverished) without the EU.
Of course that isn't necessarily true - in fact, the UK has often thrived in areas with some of the least EU protectionism.
But it will come true if you leave the EU and expect to deal with the world in exactly the same way - which is the change we're on about (when it happens).
Quote:hasta
I prefer not to base policy or the economy on hope. As a Spurs and Bath fan I have little surfeit of it.
Quote:hasta
...due to the inability of anyone to make an evidence-based case to the contrary...
Quote:hasta
But I just don't get the basis for the economic argument.
Quote:Clarkey3k
Returning to the model illustrated in the graph, as country I think both sides are in the frustration stage. I believe we have moved through the "denial" stage because the two main parties [Con/Lab with 80%+ vote share at the recent election] agree and thus are "aligned" in the policy of leaving the EU. A few may still be in "denial" but the course is set.
Quote:woodpecker
Intersting article in the Guardian, even if you dotn agree with his conclusion, essentially says a soft Brexit is not feasible
[www.theguardian.com]
Quote:woodpecker
What he's saying is:
That is why the final deal needs the consent not only of parliament, but of a sovereign people.
So he is talking about the final deal. Regardless of which side you were on, nobody knew then what the final deal would look like. Over a year later on we still have no idea.
Quote:woodpecker
Even after the 2 years is up, I'm not convinced there will be a very clear view of what you are voting on i.e. option a or option b
Quote:Genuinely the less politics involved in this process, the better it is for everyone...
Quote:jayeatman
BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?
Quote:SubstituteQuote:jayeatman
BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?
I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.
Quote:hemingtonQuote:SubstituteQuote:jayeatman
BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?
I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.
Please explain?
Quote:jayeatman
BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?
Quote:hasta
He or she can be right or wrong, it doesn't matter. What he or she can't do (in a liberal society) is impose their perspective on others. If you believe marriage is between a man and a woman then you can manage your own matrimonial choices that way. It is not fair or just for you to make that decision for other people - for whom getting married has no personal impact on you.
Quote:hasta
Firstly I'd take issue with your characterisation of Christian there as there are plently of Christians who wouldn't care about it. Mostly ones who have actually listened to the parable of the Good Samaritan. Secondly, no. If you run a business you're not allowed to discriminate. If you don't want to rent rooms to people, don't go into the business of renting rooms. You can't restrict your employment or your customer base by discrimination.
Quote:hasta
Firstly I'd take issue with your characterisation of Christian there as there are plently of Christians who wouldn't care about it. Mostly ones who have actually listened to the parable of the Good Samaritan. Secondly, no. If you run a business you're not allowed to discriminate. If you don't want to rent rooms to people, don't go into the business of renting rooms. You can't restrict your employment or your customer base by discrimination.
Quote:gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation
Quote:gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation
Have to agree with you. Leaving the EU isn't going to rid us of the PC nonsense blighting the UK.
Quote:A 'Liberal' intolerence means that instead of persecuting those who wish to see Liberal ideals you persecute those who don't - just ask Tim Farron.
Quote:SubstituteQuote:jayeatman
BTW, if you accept the idea of an 'elite' would you prefer it to be something other than 'liberal'? Left wing, right wing, communist, fascist, socialist, nationalist?
I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59
Exactly Hasta and before anyone jumps in - that is UK law and not E 'the whole world's gone PC mad' U regulation
Have to agree with you. Leaving the EU isn't going to rid us of the PC nonsense blighting the UK.
Quote:jayeatman
What a daft thing to say. The very last thing the majority of our ruling elite are is paid up members of the Liberal Party.
Quote:jayeatman
Much like 'fake news','Liberal elite' is a pejorative term used in relation to something people don't like in ignorance of what it actually means.
Quote:Substitute
But just so your clear, by 'Liberal' I don't mean an organisation.
Quote:Substitute
I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.
Quote:TCM2007Quote:Substitute
But just so your clear, by 'Liberal' I don't mean an organisation.
Quote:Substitute
I like a liberal - I dislike a 'Liberal'. We have a 'Liberal' elite.
OK, I'm confused. When you make the distinction betwee upper and lower case L what on earth did you mean if it wasn't to distinguish liberal the philosophy from Liberal the party? That's what people mean when they talk of, say, "conservative" Vs "Conservative"?
Quote:Substitute
The distinction is between the two faces of Liberalism. One which is the dictionary definition (hence small l) and the other is the political doctrine that uses the state to enforce a Liberal idealogy (hence big L).
Quote:hasta
Be specific though. What 'Liberal idealogy' (to Stuart's point I think you may have inverted capitalisation convention here) are you unhappy with? What state enforcement are you referring to? Anti-discrimination laws?
Quote:hemington
And who are these Liberals that form the elite of which you obviously object to. There must be thousands of them in order to have so much power over us - who exactly are they - the 12 MPs? It strikes me you are just using the phrase to describe anyone who's views are different to you in which case it is very lazy 'journalism'
Quote:SubstituteQuote:hasta
Be specific though. What 'Liberal idealogy' (to Stuart's point I think you may have inverted capitalisation convention here) are you unhappy with? What state enforcement are you referring to? Anti-discrimination laws?
If the leader of the Liberal Democrats (a supposedly Liberal party) feels he cant lead the party because of his personal beliefs, irrespective of his voting record then Liberalism is broken. It's just a platform for people to signal their moral 'virtue'.
Anyhow, I suggest reading Isabel Hardman's articles on the subject (or the book Two Faces of Liberalism ) - far more concise and eloquent than I could ever hope to be.
Quote:hasta
Eh? He was elected to lead that party because of his voting record, despite his personal beliefs! He made a personal choice to stand down. Sounds pretty liberal and moral to me. Why you think this is virtue signalling or what that even means is beyond me.
Quote:Isabel Hardman
We live in a society of liberal intolerance, where only certain world views are deemed acceptable by people who often refuse to accept that they themselves have a worldview that also deserves interrogating. Such intolerance is often born of a sincere desire to make life better for those who have been persecuted in the past, including gay people, women who have abortions, and those who divorce. But it becomes a form of persecution in itself, just focused on a newly unpopular group.
It might be that those moral judgements are quite palatable to a majority of those around you: you’re more likely to have an easy time if you say publicly that all religions are equal (which few really believe, as this would mean you believe that cults who practise child sacrifice deserve equal respect to the Roman Catholic Church) and that you think anything goes in relationships.
Quote:gaz59
If it is a serious offer then Davies should rip their arm off, a bargain and keeps us at the acceptable end of the spectrum of Total Humiliation to Mere Humiliation
Quote:hemington
And if we refuse to pay anything we really will get a good deal. Might as well get used toi waiting 24 hours at the border. Come to think of it we will be a new continent beacause Europe we won't be.
Quote:hemington
1 to 27 isn't very good odds. Why would they want to come to a third world country?