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Quote:gaz59
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case
Not that I can be bothered to read any of it
Quote:gaz59
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case
Quote:gaz59
Not that I can be bothered to read any of it
Quote:WestonLurker
Sorry, I can't let this pass!Quote:gaz59
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case
Playing the man not the ball. Especially as from what I have read of BSJ's comments he is neither. Ironically the epithets 'smug' and 'self-centred' seem to be pretty much owned by the remainers.
Quote:gaz59
Not that I can be bothered to read any of it
Figures.
Quote:DanWiley
If you don't believe such noise exists then I really don't see what you have to fear from a second referendum. We'll get pretty much the same result right? Unless, of course, lots of people changed their minds, in which case ...
Quote:DanWiley
There's absolutely a distribution of opinions on the matter, surely you've learnt that much, and 2% would fit comfortably within "I don't have strong feelings on the matter but feel obliged to vote."
But any vote is going to be subject to noise and of you ran it again you'd get a different result. I'd say 2% is well within that noise.
If you don't believe such noise exists then I really don't see what you have to fear from a second referendum. We'll get pretty much the same result right? Unless, of course, lots of people changed their minds, in which case ...
Quote:ChippenhamRoman
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?
How do you rationalise that?
J
Quote:The BearQuote:ChippenhamRoman
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?
How do you rationalise that?
J
Because he clearly understands Insulin 'supply chains' and current stock better than the assorted press.
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:The BearQuote:ChippenhamRoman
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?
How do you rationalise that?
J
Because he clearly understands Insulin 'supply chains' and current stock better than the assorted press.
Back in the day (and it seems so long ago) the management of pharmaceutical supply chains for biological agents was part of my job. I would not be overly optimistic about those processes being robust to the impact of a no deal Brexit. Or any Brexit, come to that. The pharma biz is legally *very* highly regulated and no one is going to risk their job or liberty by taking a chance.
Quote:annie blackthorn
Just like, as an example, the workers at Nissan in Sunderland who all voted 'Leave'. Its turkeys voting for Christmas. But as none of this will affect me, why should I care????
Quote:annie blackthorn
I voted Remain because firstly I am British and European - my culture is European, my ancient genetic history is european.
Quote:annie blackthorn
secondly because of all the brilliant environmental and scientific research projects with multi European teams.
Quote:annie blackthorn
thirdly because our future security lies with Europe, not as some satelllite subservient state of the US.
Quote:annie blackthorn
P.S. I am a Conservative, always have been, always will be. You and yours will not drive us out of the Party.
Quote:annie blackthorn
Where did you say you were living? Mr Bear, or should we call you Ted?
Pronouncing on a situation from a safe distance with your worldly goods safely stowed out of the UK no doubt..
Quote:TomReagan
Regardless of my views on Brexit date I suggest, The Bear, that just because individual posters of the Remain persuasion make comments you disagree with/ dislike, you have a tendency to make gross generalisations like putting the last poster's argument down to 'The callousness of Eurofanaticism'. It's every bit as ridiculous as Remainers suggesting that all those wishing to leave the EU are xenophobic, a generalisation you'd have every right to take exception to. Millions voted to leave, nearly as many voted to remain. There's no monopoly on either side as regards reason/ rationality and within such huge groups there are quite obviously a massive variety of views and levels of extremism/ certainty.
Quote:The BearQuote:annie blackthorn
I voted Remain because firstly I am British and European - my culture is European, my ancient genetic history is european.
Russians are European. Do you identify with them? Or do you identify with a neoliberal project that doesn't care where you're from.
Quote:annie blackthorn
secondly because of all the brilliant environmental and scientific research projects with multi European teams.
They're really not that brilliant and I speak from experience. They're often very political and will be fiercely defended by educational institutions. In terms of producing economic growth, it's not a good return on investment.
Quote:annie blackthorn
thirdly because our future security lies with Europe, not as some satelllite subservient state of the US.
The only way our security lies with Europe is if we become a full-blown pacifist country, enabling nations like Russia. Basically Corbyn. Otherwise, sorry, we need to choose the US.
Quote:annie blackthorn
P.S. I am a Conservative, always have been, always will be. You and yours will not drive us out of the Party.
Why would I want to drive you out of a party I voluntarily left? Nothing would make me want to rejoin that heartless, hopeless party. You can keep it.
Quote:annie blackthorn
Where did you say you were living? Mr Bear, or should we call you Ted?
Pronouncing on a situation from a safe distance with your worldly goods safely stowed out of the UK no doubt..
Not Ted (fortunately?) but definitely another bear-character name...
The only worldly good I have is a flat in London which takes far too much of my salary. The same flat I come home to every weekend (circumstances permitting). If I could do my job in the UK, I would jump at the chance.
But this is not the first time you've suggested I be disenfranchised because I happen to work and live (during the week) in a different country despite having, and continuing to pay into the British system... The callousness of Eurofanaticism.
Quote:joethefanatic
Rupert, is that you?
Quote:Dorset Boy
Paddington was the first one that sprang to my mind!
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Finally the Labour "pickle" is now out in the open...…..it looks like both parties are pretty well equally split on the issue.
Remainers go to Liberal Party
Leavers go to Brexit Party
Labour and Conservatives wither on the vine!
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
The most important thing I saw in Portugal and forgot to mention was several rugby pitches
Quote:Ade1865
OK we've had the various opposition leaders playing to the crowd and asking for Bojo's resignation, but lets be clear they do not want it surely. He's his own worst enemy and a massive foot in mouth for the Tories. He does more for Labour and the Lib Dems than Corbyn and Swinson ever will.
Quote:The Bear
Hence the calls for resignation (rather than the more usual routes of VONC or GE).
It's like the SNPs referendum position. They think Boris should go but they won't try and get rid of him until they are sure they can win. Essentially, cowards who can't win with force of argument.
Quote:JFPC
That's being very disingenuous. Bozo could have had (and still can get) a general election by submitting a bill calling for one. It would then only need to pass with a simple majority but it would be ammended to set the date. The reason he hasn't done this is because he's a coward who can't win with force of argument. (See also the prorogation debacle)
Quote:DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.
Quote:DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.
Labour also know they are way behind in the polls, behind the Lib Dems even.
Quote:The BearQuote:DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.
If they win an election there is no 'no deal' Brexit - ever. More than just a delayed threat. The second part is correct - it is cynical.
(P.S. it's not Boris who granted them this but the FTPA).
Anyway, I suppose we'll find out this afternoon whether Labour still have confidence in this gov.
Quote:JFPC
I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!
They don't trust Bozo's word. If he submits a one line bill with a specified date for the election (say the 15th October) the opposition parties will vote for it. If they go for a no confidence vote it is possible for Bozo to change the date to say the 1st Nov and a no deal brexit happens whilst parliament is dissolved. The opposition parties don't want this to happen.
Quote:The BearQuote:JFPC
I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!
They don't trust Bozo's word. If he submits a one line bill with a specified date for the election (say the 15th October) the opposition parties will vote for it. If they go for a no confidence vote it is possible for Bozo to change the date to say the 1st Nov and a no deal brexit happens whilst parliament is dissolved. The opposition parties don't want this to happen.
I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!
Whoever is the PM is legally obliged to seek an extension. Whether parliament is in recess, whether it is a caretaker etc.
Do you believe the SC would allow anything else? Because that is the opposition position. That the SC can't be trusted to deliver legal certainty for the bill on question.
They won't bring a one line bill (which is the not the constitutional way to remove a government) because it would be amendable - the current speaker guarantees that. It becomes proxy legislation for something, anything else. The opposition are not pure in motive either.
Whilst the government has no majority, neither does the opposition, it is therefore very unlikely to become proxy legislation and (correct me if I'm wrong) the gov can withdraw the bill if it does.
I say again - the legal guarantee is there as long as you trust the SC.
I trust the SC to TRY and make the PM obey the law but I'm not convinced he won't find a way around it. (he'll certainly try!)
The intention is to force the current PM to ask for the delay to bolster the opposition's electoral position.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong but a one line bill calling for a general election on the 15th would fix this and I don't buy your excuse for not doing it.
It is cynical. Why do you find that so offensive?
Quote:Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?
If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.
Quote:Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?
If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?
If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.
I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.
J
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?
If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.
I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.
J
Quote:Ade1865
If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.
Quote:ChippenhamRoman
I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.
Quote:TomReagan
JTF, I usually have you down as the voice of reason, so what are you doing recommending we listen to a 30 minute podcast on the legal issues surrounding Brexit. Is life in Hawaii so mellow that you have to inject some stress and frustration?!
Quote:joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.
Quote:The BearQuote:joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.
Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you.
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:The BearQuote:joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.
Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you.
The DWP did that. I was disqualified from voting for 5 years because the DWP had my birthday wrong and so I couldn't register for a postal vote. You have no idea how hard it is to get this stuff corrected. Kafka-esque doesn't begin to cover it. I had to get lawyered-up in the end.
Quote:gaz59
I really think you are missing a few central points here
The EU position has never been about money. They have consistently held to important principles that underpin their organisation and Johnson and co have either failed to understand or have not been willing to understand that the irish backstop is the only 'concrete' reassurance the EU has to maintain their organisation principles and the GFA
Even May understood that one to give her some credit
Secondly, there is no way the rebel alliance will concede a GE before 31st Oct unless there is total lockout of a no deal crash-out
After that Johnson with his big chum Nigel can, of course if they are aligned in government together go back to Brussels for another go but the EU have always said, fine but the same issues will need to be resolved before any talks on trade deals
The problem Johnson has is that he is so used to getting his own way, through bluster, bullying, power or privilege. When he is up against much smarter people who stay true to their principles and values he is clearly way out of depth
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:joethefanaticQuote:The BearQuote:joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.
Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you.
The DWP did that. I was disqualified from voting for 5 years because the DWP had my birthday wrong and so I couldn't register for a postal vote. You have no idea how hard it is to get this stuff corrected. Kafka-esque doesn't begin to cover it. I had to get lawyered-up in the end.
I know you're entitled to, but do you think it's right to vote when you will be unaffected by the outcome?
I lived outside of the UK for some years, but never voted as the outcome would have no impact on me personally and I felt uncomfortable with that.
Quote:DanWiley
It's really not a that big sum of money in government terms, the 39b 1/4er of the NHS annual budget. Do you really think it's a big deal for the 27 countries?
Quote:gaz59
"Any monies due will be subject to a quick deal"
That is simply not true
The so-called £39bn is agreed liabilities for current projects and commitments plus legally binding costs such as pension costs of UK members and workers at EU
Try leaving a restaurant and saying before I settle my bill I want to negotiate what it will cost me when I come back in
And because of the delayed exit and continued contributions paid it is now closer to £30bn
If we crash out and Johnson reneges on the leaving debt owed what country in the world would want to do business with someone who doesn't settle their bill
Would you?
Quote:DanWiley
Its really not. You can see by the EU's behaviour its not.
Quote:DanWiley
You can see by OUR behaviour its not, we were happy to pay it.
Quote:DanWiley
The difference between no deal for us and them, is that for them it has compensations whereas for us its pretty much all negative.
Quote:DanWiley
It's really not a that big sum of money in government terms, the 39b 1/4er of the NHS annual budget. Do you really think it's a big deal for the 27 countries?
Quote:The BearQuote:DanWiley
Its really not. You can see by the EU's behaviour its not.
Speaking from Europe it IS a big deal. Not particularly because of the amount but because of the political discussions unleashed were it not paid.
Countries in Eastern Europe rightly say if the UK is expected to settle its dues they are expected to receive their dues. Countries like Germany (esp.), NL will never get spending more past their plebiscite.
They don't think it will happen but they are already concerned whether Brexit will lead the EU adopting a more 'socialist' model with greater redistribution of wealth. I suspect on the other side of Europe the concern is the opposite.
Quote:DanWiley
You can see by OUR behaviour its not, we were happy to pay it.
It's transactional I imagine. It wouldn't be right to think because May negotiated it that the current government feel they are bound by the same sentiment.
Quote:DanWiley
The difference between no deal for us and them, is that for them it has compensations whereas for us its pretty much all negative.
Neglect the national politics at your peril. The economic concerns are more on our side. The political concerns are more on theirs (and no I don't mean 48% of the population don't want this etc.).