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gaz59
gaz59
19 September, 2019 19:33
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case

Not that I can be bothered to read any of it

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
19 September, 2019 19:47
Quote:
gaz59
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case
Not that I can be bothered to read any of it

That says more about the type of person you are than him if you criticise yet can't be bothered to engage with his reasoning.

DanWiley
DanWiley
19 September, 2019 21:46
"Self centred? What is wrong with looking after number 1?"

I think it's the wrong attitude on a number of levels:

Because if we all do that there's no one else to look after you.
Because I like this country and want to invest in it.
Because I want to live in a society that affords opportunity for all and drives humanity onwards.

Frankly, despite probably being a long way from the best paid person on this site, I can afford that. I can do all that and not miss out. I don't expect everyone can, that's why we have as progressive tax system.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
19 September, 2019 21:57
Mr Wiley I agree with all of your last post.

Interesting You Gov poll Con 32%, LIBERAL 23%, Labour 21%, Brexit Party 16%

WestonLurker
WestonLurker
20 September, 2019 09:02
Sorry, I can't let this pass!

Quote:
gaz59
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case

Playing the man not the ball. Especially as from what I have read of BSJ's comments he is neither. Ironically the epithets 'smug' and 'self-centred' seem to be pretty much owned by the remainers.

Quote:
gaz59
Not that I can be bothered to read any of it

Figures.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
20 September, 2019 09:07
Quote:
WestonLurker
Sorry, I can't let this pass!
Quote:
gaz59
Overtly smug and self-centred. I rest my case

Playing the man not the ball. Especially as from what I have read of BSJ's comments he is neither. Ironically the epithets 'smug' and 'self-centred' seem to be pretty much owned by the remainers.

Quote:
gaz59
Not that I can be bothered to read any of it

Figures.

+1

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 September, 2019 09:26
"epithets 'smug' and 'self-centred' seem to be pretty much owned by the remainers."

I mean, really? You think it would difficult to find examples of the likes of Farage, Johnson, JRM etc appearing self centred and smug?

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
20 September, 2019 09:52
Not sure what BoJo is smug about? Lost majority in Parliament, highly criticised for his actions to date, facing a possible defeat in the courts? Oh maybe because he is well ahead, despite these enormous set backs, in the polls!

Thanks BSJ for clarifying your stance. However, if you are moving in the case of a remain scenario into the EU which you believe is doomed, surely there are better places to escape to or in fact stay here as we will not be so badly affected not being in the Euro?



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
20 September, 2019 10:13
On a related note a friend who voted remain but has since changed sides posed the question - "I do wonder how the SNP would react if in a 2nd independence referendum they won 52/48 and found themselves 3yr post vote with all sides striving to countermand/reverse/undermine the vote of those north of the border". Cue howls of outrage about the legitimacy of the will of the Scottish people etc. I can only imagine the volume increasing if the UK Supreme Court was required to rule on the matter. Answers on a postcard to the palaces of Holyrood and Westminster please...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
20 September, 2019 10:24
Interesting point Mr CC.

Am I right in recalling that at one point your family hailed from Portugese Goa?

I think that Portugal is so badly in hock to the ECB that rather like Greece it would be/could be a welcome relief when they leave the constraints of the Euro, However they are, and will remain for some time, net recipients from the EU, witness an amazing road system with nobody on the roads!!

Also, as you would expect and endorse not everything has to be converted into Euros. Looked at a few house prices, and whilst Lisbon is relatively expensive, ref my comment above. You can buy a lovely house with land for 150,000 Euros on a mortgage with interest of 1.25%!

Interestingly apparently Lisbon and Amsterdam vie for the most attractive place for Millenials to live in Europe. As a country they are a remarkable 70% producers of their power from renewables. Whilst dramatic this number is sadly "inflated" because large parts of their industry has closed down there bye reducing energy consumption.

The biggest undisclosed factor is that my son and his fiance may go and live there when they are married and he has built up his business!

As a matter of interest where would you suggest? Our travel agent (local to Bath) did an exercise for another lady and she looked at Portugal, Spain, France and Italy and alighted on Italy. I suppose for me, being lazy and historically useless at languages the fact that almost everybody speaks very good English is a major plus.

I suppose I am currently going through a questioning period as to the democratic state of our nation and if the biggest democratic exercise in our history can be turned over by a few hundred people whats it all about?

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
20 September, 2019 11:01
Fine arguments BFJ.

They do sound as if you are trying to convince yourself though! Personally, I am not prepared to be driven out of my country by anyone or whoever is elected to govern (hahahahahaha!) us. Anyone know what the current betting odds are on Corbyn (as opposed to another communist) becoming Prime Minister after the next General Election?

I suppose not having the financial means nor worries to benefit by moving to a tax haven I am fortunate. I also would not want to have to live near other "ex-pats", far from my own close family and friends. Each to his own. Think I am fortunate that I live simply in a very nice part of southwestern England, and selfishly hope that if there is civil unrest (which I fear there will be over the next 10 years for one reason or another) it will pass us by. Climate change is a frankly a far more serious issue than what does or does not happen in the UK for the foreseeable. (p.s. next time Portugal, do ask the local 'farmers' or 'market gardeners'how it is affecting them).

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
20 September, 2019 11:05
I come from Bombay, BSJ, have visited Goa many times and once had clients there when I worked in Bombay.

Portugal is a lovely country or at least most of it beyond the Algarve! I did like Porto and the Douro surrounds.

Speaking to people there they feel betrayed by the EU and the amount of money poured into the Country is meagre compensation for the devastation of their manufacturing industry. One shopkeeper was very bitter that most of his goods were non Portuguese and what used to be produced indigenously was now going to Spain. The same shopkeeper was very upset that we were leaving as he felt that they had lost a strong voice against the FrancoGerman power base.

Where to go? Depends on ones priorities. My sons and grandchildren are in UK and France so that would influence any decision. I was at a dinner party last night and heard that a late 19thC Manoir was bought recently for €140,000 near St Lo. Structurally sound but needed updating! Now that is probably worth thinking about if your downsizing!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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ade1865
Ade1865
20 September, 2019 13:24
BFJ interesting point that you think most on here wish to remain. I was under the impression it was the other way round. Perhaps we just filter out those who agree/support our position and only notice those who vociferously object to it.

Anyway, I know nothing of the impending economic situation. I suspect that life will become harder for me now in my early 50s when we leave, just when I was looking to consolidate. I dont really need it tbh. Its put a major dent in any chance I had to retire to a nice warm country in southern Europe, as I dont have the kind of housing budgets you are bandying around. Divide it by 5 or 10 and its more realistic for me and my family. It makes it unrealistic to have to have 2 homes and move between the two rather than just settling down. My kids have decided to move to Canada and the States because they're fed up with the state over here, whether we leave or stay. and I say good luck to them, but it will be a wrench to see them go.

all along my biggest gripe with leaving the EU is that my kids were born with the right to live and work in 28 different countries unhindered and now that is being taken away from them without them having a say (too young to vote). Remain in Europe and they may have been persuaded to live in Europe rather than the other side of the world.

My hope is that by the time I am in a position to retire in 25 years or so then countries like Spain will be offering preferential deals to anyone wishing to set down roots in their retirement, and that the EU will still be intact and we wont be looking at another war, oh and that we still have a planet worthy of the name. Which last comment, kind of puts all this petty shitsturring into perspective and highlights why my kids have lost all interest in Britain when there are much bigger fish to fry (at present, until they are all gone!)

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 September, 2019 14:13
' "I do wonder how the SNP would react if in a 2nd independence referendum they won 52/48 and found themselves 3yr post vote with all sides striving to countermand/reverse/undermine the vote of those north of the border". '

I'm sure the hard core leavers would scream blue murder. But, if they did find themselves in a position similar to the one we find ourselves in, and there's every likelihood they would, from a dispassionate point of view you'd have to say "why the bloody hell are you doing this massively damaging thing, for precious little benefit, on the basis of statistical noise?" and "If another vote were to go 2% the other way it would surely prove that it is, at best, statistical noise."

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 September, 2019 16:21
It's worth noting that the Portuguese golden visa requires an investment of a minimum of €250,000 in Portugal, so it's hardly a general solution.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
20 September, 2019 16:27
DW will you please explain to simple folk like me what you mean by statistical noise in this case? All votes were counted and leave had 1.9m more than remain - it’s not like there is a standard deviation or anything? Ta



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 September, 2019 18:40
There's absolutely a distribution of opinions on the matter, surely you've learnt that much, and 2% would fit comfortably within "I don't have strong feelings on the matter but feel obliged to vote."

But any vote is going to be subject to noise and of you ran it again you'd get a different result. I'd say 2% is well within that noise.

If you don't believe such noise exists then I really don't see what you have to fear from a second referendum. We'll get pretty much the same result right? Unless, of course, lots of people changed their minds, in which case ...

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
20 September, 2019 18:49
Ade 1865

Increasingly I am aware of friends children who are going to live in NZ, Australia, US and Canada. Younger countries where I sense opportunities abound.

I went to Australia in 2000 and if I had been 10 years younger with no responsibilities I would have come back and got a visa to work there.........and I suspect would have ended up making my life there.

These are all vibrant countries with terrific opportunities and of course they all speak a form of English.

Unemployment in a number of EU countries still remains very high and so I suspect that employment opportunities are really only available in the northern countries. However it will be interesting to see how long it takes Germany to move out of recession.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
20 September, 2019 18:50
Annie B

I agree on climate change........we must do much more and more quickly!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
20 September, 2019 20:37
Quote:
DanWiley

If you don't believe such noise exists then I really don't see what you have to fear from a second referendum. We'll get pretty much the same result right? Unless, of course, lots of people changed their minds, in which case ...

I voted remain, I just wondered what you meant by it.

I don’t agree with you btw. There was a clear 1.8m-Odd majority in the first vote. That’s not to say there would be in the second, but the only thing wrong with the first in my view was that it was based on misinformation / lack of information.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/09/2019 20:40 by BathMatt53.

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 September, 2019 20:56
1.8m sounds a lot, until you view it in the context of the numbers involved, at which point is 2% and that's nothing. Those sort of numbers can, and do, vote differently because of trivia like the weather.

Substitute
Substitute
20 September, 2019 21:42
Quote:
DanWiley
There's absolutely a distribution of opinions on the matter, surely you've learnt that much, and 2% would fit comfortably within "I don't have strong feelings on the matter but feel obliged to vote."
But any vote is going to be subject to noise and of you ran it again you'd get a different result. I'd say 2% is well within that noise.

If you don't believe such noise exists then I really don't see what you have to fear from a second referendum. We'll get pretty much the same result right? Unless, of course, lots of people changed their minds, in which case ...

This is such a tedious argument. 1.8 million is not noise, it is statistically meaningful. It also garnered the largest participation in recent history, so those with strong feelings easily drowned out those who felt obliged to vote.

But saying what have they got to fear from a 2nd referendum, is like asking them to entrust a fair referendum to the Remain-dominated parliament that has prevented Brexit for the last 3 years.

It would be like a major political party saying they will negotiate a 'better' deal and they will advise voting against it...

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
20 September, 2019 22:07
I think leave will win a second referendum. Why? Because many remainers will have accepted they had lost and are frustrated that MPs have not been able to make a decision! I fear the second referendum because of the deep division it will cause as the same arguments will be aired and positions are now polarised. Yes some will move but I believe that this will be both ways and will even out.

We need a general election to change the party arithmetic to ensure that a proper mandate is expressed by the people.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
20 September, 2019 22:46
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?

How do you rationalise that?

J

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 September, 2019 23:09
"1.8 million is not noise"

It is. You need to consider scale. If you're measuring the size of three universe, 1.8 million metres, miles, frankly pretty much whatever unit you want is irrelevant noise. 2% on any vague measurement is noise.


"But saying what have they got to fear from a 2nd referendum,"

No deal or no brexit, legally binding, what issue is there? It's not like there isn't a significant proportion of parliament that want a boo deal that equally has no mandate.

If you're right cc, and remain have accepted the result and leave win again, hire could it deepen divisions?

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
20 September, 2019 23:49
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?
How do you rationalise that?

J

Because he clearly understands Insulin 'supply chains' and current stock better than the assorted press.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
21 September, 2019 00:19
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?
How do you rationalise that?

J

Because he clearly understands Insulin 'supply chains' and current stock better than the assorted press.

Back in the day (and it seems so long ago) the management of pharmaceutical supply chains for biological agents was part of my job. I would not be overly optimistic about those processes being robust to the impact of a no deal Brexit. Or any Brexit, come to that. The pharma biz is legally *very* highly regulated and no one is going to risk their job or liberty by taking a chance.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
21 September, 2019 06:45
i was talking about another referendum campaign. The last one was bad enough if we have another there will be as you put it more noise!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
21 September, 2019 09:35
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Anyone see the diabetic from Birmingham when despite knowing he is about to struggle getting insulin he retorts that “out means out”.?
How do you rationalise that?

J

Because he clearly understands Insulin 'supply chains' and current stock better than the assorted press.

Back in the day (and it seems so long ago) the management of pharmaceutical supply chains for biological agents was part of my job. I would not be overly optimistic about those processes being robust to the impact of a no deal Brexit. Or any Brexit, come to that. The pharma biz is legally *very* highly regulated and no one is going to risk their job or liberty by taking a chance.

Here’s the dude. It beggars belief.

[www.indy100.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/09/2019 09:35 by ChippenhamRoman.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
21 September, 2019 10:57
Nope.

And you can be absolutely sure that if he can't get the make of insulin he is used to, it won't be his fault, it'll be his medical team, then the NHS, then the government, then probably the EU for being 'so difficult'. Just like, as an example, the workers at Nissan in Sunderland who all voted 'Leave'. Its turkeys voting for Christmas. But as none of this will affect me, why should I care????

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
21 September, 2019 19:48
Sir John Curtice has said that most/all Brexiteers are very passionate about leaving.

Some Remainers are equally passionate but a lot of people voted for Remain as it was status quo and not rocking the boat or changing anything.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
21 September, 2019 21:07
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Just like, as an example, the workers at Nissan in Sunderland who all voted 'Leave'. Its turkeys voting for Christmas. But as none of this will affect me, why should I care????

Modern liberal Conservatism in a nutshell: "Vote in line with your companies wishes or they can dump you. That's ok. As long as I'm okay, then you can pay the price for having the temerity to disagree with me."

The legacy of Cameron. Horrible, hateful politics. Only matched (and exceeded) by the sanctimonious, thought-policing left.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
22 September, 2019 11:30
I voted Remain because firstly I am British and European - my culture is European, my ancient genetic history is european.
secondly because of all the brilliant environmental and scientific research projects with multi European teams.
thirdly because our future security lies with Europe, not as some satelllite subservient state of the US.
P.S. I am a Conservative, always have been, always will be. You and yours will not drive us out of the Party.

P.S.

Where did you say you were living? Mr Bear, or should we call you Ted?

Pronouncing on a situation from a safe distance with your worldly goods safely stowed out of the UK no doubt.

I could be ruder but don't want to upset the Moderators on a Sunday morning. Anyway, there's a match on.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
22 September, 2019 22:06
Quote:
annie blackthorn
I voted Remain because firstly I am British and European - my culture is European, my ancient genetic history is european.

Russians are European. Do you identify with them? Or do you identify with a neoliberal project that doesn't care where you're from.

Quote:
annie blackthorn
secondly because of all the brilliant environmental and scientific research projects with multi European teams.

They're really not that brilliant and I speak from experience. They're often very political and will be fiercely defended by educational institutions. In terms of producing economic growth, it's not a good return on investment.

Quote:
annie blackthorn
thirdly because our future security lies with Europe, not as some satelllite subservient state of the US.

The only way our security lies with Europe is if we become a full-blown pacifist country, enabling nations like Russia. Basically Corbyn. Otherwise, sorry, we need to choose the US.

Quote:
annie blackthorn
P.S. I am a Conservative, always have been, always will be. You and yours will not drive us out of the Party.

Why would I want to drive you out of a party I voluntarily left? Nothing would make me want to rejoin that heartless, hopeless party. You can keep it.

Quote:
annie blackthorn

Where did you say you were living? Mr Bear, or should we call you Ted?

Pronouncing on a situation from a safe distance with your worldly goods safely stowed out of the UK no doubt..

Not Ted (fortunately?) but definitely another bear-character name...

The only worldly good I have is a flat in London which takes far too much of my salary. The same flat I come home to every weekend (circumstances permitting). If I could do my job in the UK, I would jump at the chance.

But this is not the first time you've suggested I be disenfranchised because I happen to work and live (during the week) in a different country despite having, and continuing to pay into the British system... The callousness of Eurofanaticism.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/09/2019 22:08 by The Bear.

TomReagan
TomReagan
22 September, 2019 22:27
Regardless of my views on Brexit date I suggest, The Bear, that just because individual posters of the Remain persuasion make comments you disagree with/ dislike, you have a tendency to make gross generalisations like putting the last poster's argument down to 'The callousness of Eurofanaticism'. It's every bit as ridiculous as Remainers suggesting that all those wishing to leave the EU are xenophobic, a generalisation you'd have every right to take exception to. Millions voted to leave, nearly as many voted to remain. There's no monopoly on either side as regards reason/ rationality and within such huge groups there are quite obviously a massive variety of views and levels of extremism/ certainty.

JFPC
JFPC
22 September, 2019 22:47
Quote:
TomReagan
Regardless of my views on Brexit date I suggest, The Bear, that just because individual posters of the Remain persuasion make comments you disagree with/ dislike, you have a tendency to make gross generalisations like putting the last poster's argument down to 'The callousness of Eurofanaticism'. It's every bit as ridiculous as Remainers suggesting that all those wishing to leave the EU are xenophobic, a generalisation you'd have every right to take exception to. Millions voted to leave, nearly as many voted to remain. There's no monopoly on either side as regards reason/ rationality and within such huge groups there are quite obviously a massive variety of views and levels of extremism/ certainty.

You're nothing but a filthy compromiser. Who do you think you are, coming on here and trying to be all reasonable? This is a brexit debate afterall!



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
23 September, 2019 07:25
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
annie blackthorn
I voted Remain because firstly I am British and European - my culture is European, my ancient genetic history is european.

Russians are European. Do you identify with them? Or do you identify with a neoliberal project that doesn't care where you're from.

Quote:
annie blackthorn
secondly because of all the brilliant environmental and scientific research projects with multi European teams.

They're really not that brilliant and I speak from experience. They're often very political and will be fiercely defended by educational institutions. In terms of producing economic growth, it's not a good return on investment.

Quote:
annie blackthorn
thirdly because our future security lies with Europe, not as some satelllite subservient state of the US.

The only way our security lies with Europe is if we become a full-blown pacifist country, enabling nations like Russia. Basically Corbyn. Otherwise, sorry, we need to choose the US.

Quote:
annie blackthorn
P.S. I am a Conservative, always have been, always will be. You and yours will not drive us out of the Party.

Why would I want to drive you out of a party I voluntarily left? Nothing would make me want to rejoin that heartless, hopeless party. You can keep it.

Quote:
annie blackthorn

Where did you say you were living? Mr Bear, or should we call you Ted?

Pronouncing on a situation from a safe distance with your worldly goods safely stowed out of the UK no doubt..

Not Ted (fortunately?) but definitely another bear-character name...

The only worldly good I have is a flat in London which takes far too much of my salary. The same flat I come home to every weekend (circumstances permitting). If I could do my job in the UK, I would jump at the chance.

But this is not the first time you've suggested I be disenfranchised because I happen to work and live (during the week) in a different country despite having, and continuing to pay into the British system... The callousness of Eurofanaticism.

Rupert, is that you?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

WestonLurker
WestonLurker
23 September, 2019 08:47
Quote:
joethefanatic
Rupert, is that you?

I'm holding out for Yogi.

ade1865
Ade1865
23 September, 2019 09:46
Barnaby?

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
23 September, 2019 10:36
Paddington was the first one that sprang to my mind!

WestonLurker
WestonLurker
23 September, 2019 11:02
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Paddington was the first one that sprang to my mind!

Explains the London pied-à-terre.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
23 September, 2019 11:16
I was planning to buy a house in France. In the end I had to sell my UK house for about 20% less than the original asking price from 2 years ago I wll get a lot less euros than I would have before June 23rd 2016. I'm not going to do anything unless we get a transition period. Good old brexit!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
23 September, 2019 11:40
Finally the Labour "pickle" is now out in the open...…..it looks like both parties are pretty well equally split on the issue.

Remainers go to Liberal Party

Leavers go to Brexit Party

Labour and Conservatives wither on the vine!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
23 September, 2019 11:50
The most important thing I saw in Portugal and forgot to mention was several rugby pitches(Sm48)

DanWiley
DanWiley
23 September, 2019 11:52
I think the split in the Labour party goes 3 ways, but two of the factions mean the same result. There's the part of the party that would just stop brexit. There's the party leader and his support that I feel have their own agenda. Then there's those practical people who don't want brexit but know they need a referendum to achieve that and so, apparently, appear on Corbyn's side.

I don't see the split as anything like as fundamental as the Tory split where you've got good economic sense coming up against little britain and they just can't reconcile it.

I think they'll come down on Corbyn's side and the matter will pass as, at the end of the day, a second referendum is a means of achieving what the second group want. At the end of the day, its not an unreasonable position "look here's the best deal we can get (I feel it might be no deal), do you want that or no brexit?" Why not ask that question?

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
23 September, 2019 11:54
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Finally the Labour "pickle" is now out in the open...…..it looks like both parties are pretty well equally split on the issue.
Remainers go to Liberal Party

Leavers go to Brexit Party

Labour and Conservatives wither on the vine!

Don't entirely disagree that the Tories and Labour are finished as political forces. Problem is the Brexit party are a one trick pony and the Liberals are a high tax anti success party.

Really need other parties on the left and right to be formed to bring a fresh approach to parliament with hopefully none of the current crop of failed MP's sitting.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
23 September, 2019 12:31
A Welsh remain friend of mine shared this Guardian article with me today...

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
23 September, 2019 12:37
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
The most important thing I saw in Portugal and forgot to mention was several rugby pitches(Sm48)

I remember watching their team play in the 2007 world cup in Paris.

ade1865
Ade1865
25 September, 2019 10:41
OK we've had the various opposition leaders playing to the crowd and asking for Bojo's resignation, but lets be clear they do not want it surely. He's his own worst enemy and a massive foot in mouth for the Tories. He does more for Labour and the Lib Dems than Corbyn and Swinson ever will.

kingofthehill
KingoftheHill
25 September, 2019 10:54
Quote:
Ade1865
OK we've had the various opposition leaders playing to the crowd and asking for Bojo's resignation, but lets be clear they do not want it surely. He's his own worst enemy and a massive foot in mouth for the Tories. He does more for Labour and the Lib Dems than Corbyn and Swinson ever will.

Not in my opinion. Tory's will win GE if Johnson is leader - otherwise votes go to Brexit party

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 September, 2019 11:16
They fear Boris in an election. Their strategy is to force Boris to ask for a delay in an attempt to fragment a potential Leave plurality.

Far more preferable to them they maintain their current power dynamic and attempt to force the Tories to replace Boris with a leader more preferable to their desires. Hence the calls for resignation (rather than the more usual routes of VONC or GE).

It's like the SNPs referendum position. They think Boris should go but they won't try and get rid of him until they are sure they can win. Essentially, cowards who can't win with force of argument.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

JFPC
JFPC
25 September, 2019 12:06
Quote:
The Bear
Hence the calls for resignation (rather than the more usual routes of VONC or GE).
It's like the SNPs referendum position. They think Boris should go but they won't try and get rid of him until they are sure they can win. Essentially, cowards who can't win with force of argument.

That's being very disingenuous. Bozo could have had (and still can get) a general election by submitting a bill calling for one. It would then only need to pass with a simple majority but it would be ammended to set the date. The reason he hasn't done this is because he's a coward who can't win with force of argument. (See also the prorogation debacle)



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

ade1865
Ade1865
25 September, 2019 12:36
Sorry I just don't see how anyone can think the man is fit to serve in public office let alone a political party.

Besides, I don't see anyone gaining a majority in the next election, or for 20 years to come. Millions of Tory voters who do not wish to leave will not vote although some will probably vote Lib Dem. Likewise Labour. Both parties are split down remain/leave lines. If we haven't left then Brexit Party will pick up a lot of votes, but again can only attract 30% of voters maximum. many of those will be moderates and will not want to support Farage. If we have left, presumably without a deal, then there will be no Brexit Party and the Tories will be irrevocably split. Lib Dems will get a protest vote and Labour? Don't know to be honest. does anybody know what the majority of Labour voters want? I think their increasingly left wing politics will put a lot of people off.

I'm sure many of you will pick apart my theory, but the truth of the matter is you'll tend towards what you want to happen, because no-one has a dicky bird what is going to happen.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
25 September, 2019 12:44
This weekends opinion polls will be interesting.

On the one hand you have Boris who appears to be on the naughty step, but that will have increased his support for the extreme Brexiteers.

On the other you have Corbyn who ranted like the extremist loon he is yesterday, calling for nationalisation of just about everything, espewing the politics or envy and division, and not a mention of how to pay for anything, except he'll tax those earning £50k or more out of existence.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 September, 2019 12:46
Quote:
JFPC

That's being very disingenuous. Bozo could have had (and still can get) a general election by submitting a bill calling for one. It would then only need to pass with a simple majority but it would be ammended to set the date. The reason he hasn't done this is because he's a coward who can't win with force of argument. (See also the prorogation debacle)


They haven't even withdrawn confidence in the government. They won't even put it to motion. They could even have the chance of forming their own government. Yet they won't take this action.

As it stands, parliament has confidence in the government. It is that confidence that enabled the SC to reach its judgement. Without it he could not prorogue. Remember that every time they lecture you on how terrible he is.

In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?

If they won, the delay would be enacted. So why not have an election, if not for cynical reasons.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

kingofthehill
KingoftheHill
25 September, 2019 12:53
"Sorry I just don't see how anyone can think the man is fit to serve in public office let alone a political party"

And which of the clowns in parliament are??

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 September, 2019 12:55
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"

I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
25 September, 2019 13:02
Quote:
DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.

Labour also know they are way behind in the polls, behind the Lib Dems even.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 September, 2019 13:57
Quote:
DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.

If they win an election there is no 'no deal' Brexit - ever. More than just a delayed threat. The second part is correct - it is cynical.

(P.S. it's not Boris who granted them this but the FTPA).

Anyway, I suppose we'll find out this afternoon whether Labour still have confidence in this gov.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

ade1865
Ade1865
25 September, 2019 14:05
'And which of the clowns in parliament are??'

None that I can think of.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
25 September, 2019 14:07
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Quote:
DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.

Labour also know they are way behind in the polls, behind the Lib Dems even.

After listening to some of the rubbish coming out of the Labour conference only a total fool would vote for them whilst momentum are in charge.

ade1865
Ade1865
25 September, 2019 14:44
I must say I dont see where they think a 4 day week/32 hour week is going to get votes without losing more.

I'd argue that I could get just as much work done in a 6 hour day than a 7.5. but it wouldnt be stricly true. the work would be of a better standard, but I still wouldnt get anywhere nearer clearing my workload than I do at present. theres simply too much. for my boss to then be told by the govt that he has to reduce my hours would probably mean getting the sack and then being reinstated at a lower wage with the option to work the extra hours to make up my wage, which of course I would do.

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 September, 2019 14:50
"If they win an election there is no 'no deal' Brexit - ever."

I still think that the best way to decide whether we want no deal brexit is to ask the country "do you want a no deal brexit?" To ask that question wrapped in a whole host of other questions, as you would be in an election, won't give you a clear answer. We could easily find it doesn't move the question on at all, the probable hung Parliament says exactly that.

"The second part is correct - it is cynical."

I don't think its cynical. It is obviously self interested. He wants to win so he does it on his own terms. It's a poor party leader who doesn't think that way. But that, in itself, doesn't make it cynical. It seems perfectly reasonable for an opposition not to take an opportunity that's offer to them if they don't think its to their advantage.

"(P.S. it's not Boris who granted them this but the FTPA)."

Nope, Boris did by throwing away his majority. Otherwise his plan to call an election through a simple majority would be pretty much guaranteed to work. As it is he needs the support of another significant party to even get a majority to vote for it. He's done it entirely to himself.

JFPC
JFPC
25 September, 2019 14:51
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
DanWiley
"In addition to this Labour already made clear they would not hold a general election until the delay had been asked. Why is that do you think?"
I think its because they don't want a no deal brexit. They also want an election, but they know an election is coming, they want to do it in their own time and on their terms. As Boris has opened that gift up to them they'd be stupid not to.

If they win an election there is no 'no deal' Brexit - ever. More than just a delayed threat. The second part is correct - it is cynical.

(P.S. it's not Boris who granted them this but the FTPA).

Anyway, I suppose we'll find out this afternoon whether Labour still have confidence in this gov.

I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!

They don't trust Bozo's word. If he submits a one line bill with a specified date for the election (say the 15th October) the opposition parties will vote for it. If they go for a no confidence vote it is possible for Bozo to change the date to say the 1st Nov and a no deal brexit happens whilst parliament is dissolved. The opposition parties don't want this to happen.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 September, 2019 16:57
Quote:
JFPC
I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!

They don't trust Bozo's word. If he submits a one line bill with a specified date for the election (say the 15th October) the opposition parties will vote for it. If they go for a no confidence vote it is possible for Bozo to change the date to say the 1st Nov and a no deal brexit happens whilst parliament is dissolved. The opposition parties don't want this to happen.

I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!

Whoever is the PM is legally obliged to seek an extension. Whether parliament is in recess, whether it is a caretaker etc.

Do you believe the SC would allow anything else? Because that is the opposition position. That the SC can't be trusted to deliver legal certainty for the bill on question.

They won't bring a one line bill (which is the not the constitutional way to remove a government) because it would be amendable - the current speaker guarantees that. It becomes proxy legislation for something, anything else. The opposition are not pure in motive either.

I say again - the legal guarantee is there as long as you trust the SC. The intention is to force the current PM to ask for the delay to bolster the opposition's electoral position. It is cynical. Why do you find that so offensive?



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 September, 2019 17:35
Of all the things going on in British politics right now, the Labour party playing the hand that Boris gifted them is pretty much the least offensive.

Putting that alongside Boris's illegal attack on the constitution I could see as offensive.

Your definition of cynical is also pretty questionable. I don't see a particular precedent for a opposition leader having to accept an election when offered.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
25 September, 2019 18:17
Parliament looks like a group of parents whose children just will not do as they are told. With the rage only usually seen when the kids are winning.

"Look we gave you a chance but you chose wrong so now your not having it," problem is they are blind to the fact the parents don't have the answer either but simply can't admit it.

To spend the day squabbling is a complete and utter disgrace. One day Brexit won't be there, then what will they do?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

JFPC
JFPC
25 September, 2019 18:37
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
JFPC
I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!

They don't trust Bozo's word. If he submits a one line bill with a specified date for the election (say the 15th October) the opposition parties will vote for it. If they go for a no confidence vote it is possible for Bozo to change the date to say the 1st Nov and a no deal brexit happens whilst parliament is dissolved. The opposition parties don't want this to happen.

I'll try spelling it out for you one last time as you're clearly finding it difficult!

Whoever is the PM is legally obliged to seek an extension. Whether parliament is in recess, whether it is a caretaker etc.

Do you believe the SC would allow anything else? Because that is the opposition position. That the SC can't be trusted to deliver legal certainty for the bill on question.

They won't bring a one line bill (which is the not the constitutional way to remove a government) because it would be amendable - the current speaker guarantees that. It becomes proxy legislation for something, anything else. The opposition are not pure in motive either.

Whilst the government has no majority, neither does the opposition, it is therefore very unlikely to become proxy legislation and (correct me if I'm wrong) the gov can withdraw the bill if it does.

I say again - the legal guarantee is there as long as you trust the SC.

I trust the SC to TRY and make the PM obey the law but I'm not convinced he won't find a way around it. (he'll certainly try!)

The intention is to force the current PM to ask for the delay to bolster the opposition's electoral position.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong but a one line bill calling for a general election on the 15th would fix this and I don't buy your excuse for not doing it.

It is cynical. Why do you find that so offensive?

Some of my reply is in the quoted text above but as I'm doing this from my phone I hope you'll excuse the lack of proper formatting.

There probably is some degree of cynicism at play, (more on the government side if you are willing to be honest) but I don't find it offensive, at no point have I said or implied that I do. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.

I'm highly cynical of politicians on both sides (I normally spoil my ballot paper as there are rarely any MP's standing who I feel would represent my views but I still wish to register my dissatisfaction. However they've stopped announcing the number of spoilt papers as it was getting embarrassing)



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/09/2019 18:40 by JFPC.

ade1865
Ade1865
25 September, 2019 19:44
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?

I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?

If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.

gaz59
gaz59
25 September, 2019 19:55
Quote:
Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?

If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.

Contempt of court, go straight to jail do not collect £200

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 September, 2019 20:06
Sounds better than dying in a ditch which is the other option he has offered.

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
25 September, 2019 20:16
Quote:
Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?

If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.

I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.

J

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
25 September, 2019 20:29
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Quote:
Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?

If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.

I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.

J

It has been suggested that The Speaker would have the power to direct the Head of the Civil Service to do that.

For anyone who has 30 minutes or so to spare, I can recommend the Talking Politics podcast



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
25 September, 2019 20:29
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Quote:
Ade1865
Whats to stop Johnson disobeying the law and doing nothing until 1st November? If its down to the PM to ask for an extension, then presumably it is only he that can do it. So if he decides to just avoid it, how can anyone stop him?
I dont think anyone not in the Tory party trusts him to obey the law which is why they will not currently agree to an election. The question still remains though: how do you make him obey the law?

If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.

I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.

J

It has been suggested that The Speaker would have the power to direct the Head of the Civil Service to do that.

For anyone who has 30 minutes or so a week to spare, I can recommend the Talking Politics podcast which has been going into a lot of detail on the constitutional implications of what has been happening. Although the considered opinion of a number of distinguished law professors at the end of last weeks' cast was "feck knows what happens now". And that's almost a verbatim quote...



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/09/2019 20:32 by joethefanatic.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 September, 2019 20:53
Quote:
Ade1865
If he does nothing and we leave without a deal and he gets prosecuted he becomes a martyr.

Boris Johnson is a self-serving oaf (along with the majority of the rest of parliament). He wouldn't martyr himself for anyone.

Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
I’d imagine Sir Mark Sedwill as Cabinet Secretary and head of the Civil Service would write and issue the letter as the Prime Minister would be in gaol.

Well this where it could get tricky. For the EU to enact the extension it should come from the head of the UK government, the PM. It would be legally unusual to accept from anyone else but the EU may review it's rules.

So were he (BoJo) not to extend, see above, they would have to remove him and any replacement would have to make the request. Even if in those extraordinary circumstances parliament still holds confidence in the government or can't proffer an alternative, the Supreme Court would clearly rule for enacting the extension and the remedy would address (actually I think parliamentarians would prefer the latter).

There is ample time in the bill and the EU council can always call an emergency session (and then endlessly whinge about having to do so).

The extension will be asked for, one way or another bar an election victory for the Conservatives. It will likely be granted, one way or another.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

TomReagan
TomReagan
25 September, 2019 23:58
JTF, I usually have you down as the voice of reason, so what are you doing recommending we listen to a 30 minute podcast on the legal issues surrounding Brexit. Is life in Hawaii so mellow that you have to inject some stress and frustration?!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
26 September, 2019 05:51
Quote:
TomReagan
JTF, I usually have you down as the voice of reason, so what are you doing recommending we listen to a 30 minute podcast on the legal issues surrounding Brexit. Is life in Hawaii so mellow that you have to inject some stress and frustration?!

Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving. Anything I can do to try to understand what is likely to happen, I will take. Plus, it's a very good podcast smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

TomReagan
TomReagan
26 September, 2019 07:10
Seems never ending- a political black hole we'll never emerge from, so I now avoid the topic where possible, apart from dipping into this thread. Mind you, it's everywhere. Driving up M5 for two hours yesterday and every overhead sign displayed the same message about a change in freight papers needed on Nov 1st, so someone thinks changes are afoot!

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
26 September, 2019 09:58
Quote:
joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.

Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you. winking smiley



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

TomReagan
TomReagan
26 September, 2019 15:37
As every JTF post concludes with the words 'Now in Honolulu' I'd sort of guessed!

John Tee
John Tee
26 September, 2019 17:42
I think Johnson will take every opportunity to run down the clock.
He is cornered though so his final act will be to do a deal with Farage. If that ticket comes in with a parliamentary majority...which it might, then Johnson has a peoples mandate and the numbers in parliament to do as he wants.
It is at that point, the e.u will have to do a deal.

So, Johnson has all to play for, and the e.u might want to help him now in his weakened state and do a deal by the 31st or take their chances later on.
it will come down to how much money they can live with.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
26 September, 2019 17:51
I'm sorry Mr Tee

What do you mean by "it will come down to how much money they can live with"?

gaz59
gaz59
26 September, 2019 17:56
I really think you are missing a few central points here

The EU position has never been about money. They have consistently held to important principles that underpin their organisation and Johnson and co have either failed to understand or have not been willing to understand that the irish backstop is the only 'concrete' reassurance the EU has to maintain their organisation principles and the GFA

Even May understood that one to give her some credit

Secondly, there is no way the rebel alliance will concede a GE before 31st Oct unless there is total lockout of a no deal crash-out

After that Johnson with his big chum Nigel can, of course if they are aligned in government together go back to Brussels for another go but the EU have always said, fine but the same issues will need to be resolved before any talks on trade deals

The problem Johnson has is that he is so used to getting his own way, through bluster, bullying, power or privilege. When he is up against much smarter people who stay true to their principles and values he is clearly way out of depth

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
26 September, 2019 18:06
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.

Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you. winking smiley

The DWP did that. I was disqualified from voting for 5 years because the DWP had my birthday wrong and so I couldn't register for a postal vote. You have no idea how hard it is to get this stuff corrected. Kafka-esque doesn't begin to cover it. I had to get lawyered-up in the end.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
26 September, 2019 18:34
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.

Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you. winking smiley

The DWP did that. I was disqualified from voting for 5 years because the DWP had my birthday wrong and so I couldn't register for a postal vote. You have no idea how hard it is to get this stuff corrected. Kafka-esque doesn't begin to cover it. I had to get lawyered-up in the end.

I know you're entitled to, but do you think it's right to vote when you will be unaffected by the outcome?

I lived outside of the UK for some years, but never voted as the outcome would have no impact on me personally and I felt uncomfortable with that.

John Tee
John Tee
26 September, 2019 19:58
Quote:
gaz59
I really think you are missing a few central points here
The EU position has never been about money. They have consistently held to important principles that underpin their organisation and Johnson and co have either failed to understand or have not been willing to understand that the irish backstop is the only 'concrete' reassurance the EU has to maintain their organisation principles and the GFA

Even May understood that one to give her some credit

Secondly, there is no way the rebel alliance will concede a GE before 31st Oct unless there is total lockout of a no deal crash-out

After that Johnson with his big chum Nigel can, of course if they are aligned in government together go back to Brussels for another go but the EU have always said, fine but the same issues will need to be resolved before any talks on trade deals

The problem Johnson has is that he is so used to getting his own way, through bluster, bullying, power or privilege. When he is up against much smarter people who stay true to their principles and values he is clearly way out of depth

Are you kidding, of course it is about money.
Any monies due will be subject to a quick deal.
Any negotiator would want that card up their sleeve...because they know the e.u must get a result there.
if the e.u fail to secure any money, that means going back to the 27 and asking them to make up the deficit. They are going to have to do that anyway but 39 bill is a good few years subs that delays that 'ask'

The date doesnt matter anymore, all it does is extend the leaving date ..if Johnson gets his mandate, he can even campaign on it by saying parliament forced him to extend.

If the electorate perceives parliament have denied them their wishes, Johnson can promise them their wish.
So, if Johnson holds his nerve then he isnt as dead and buried as people think....IF he gets a result at the GE.

And all the while, he bunkers down ...doesnt have to do alot until he gets the date.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
26 September, 2019 20:05
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic
Well, life in Hawaii is extremely agreeable but I remain a British citizen and I have very strong views on how our country appears to be evolving.

Careful revealing you live abroad (and full time at that) - Annie will try and disenfranchise you. winking smiley

The DWP did that. I was disqualified from voting for 5 years because the DWP had my birthday wrong and so I couldn't register for a postal vote. You have no idea how hard it is to get this stuff corrected. Kafka-esque doesn't begin to cover it. I had to get lawyered-up in the end.

I know you're entitled to, but do you think it's right to vote when you will be unaffected by the outcome?

I lived outside of the UK for some years, but never voted as the outcome would have no impact on me personally and I felt uncomfortable with that.

My EU citizenship is being stripped from me without my permission. I call that "being affected". Indeed, its what I object to most in this whole sorry farrago.

I also pay (quite a lot of) UK taxes so, for example, I'm paying for the NHS without, as a non-resident, being able to legally access its care. I'd quite like a say on how my taxes are used. And, for the avoidance of doubt, I would vote for any party who has a manifesto committment to vastly increase the resources allocated to the NHS.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 26/09/2019 20:13 by joethefanatic.

DanWiley
DanWiley
26 September, 2019 21:29
It's really not a that big sum of money in government terms, the 39b 1/4er of the NHS annual budget. Do you really think it's a big deal for the 27 countries?

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
26 September, 2019 21:46
Quote:
DanWiley
It's really not a that big sum of money in government terms, the 39b 1/4er of the NHS annual budget. Do you really think it's a big deal for the 27 countries?

Yes it's a big deal for those countries that are net contributors e.g Germany, a shortfall will need filling. It's also a big deal for those hoping to receive funds from the Commission, their applications for same may founder if the pot shrinks without UK contributions...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

gaz59
gaz59
27 September, 2019 07:36
"Any monies due will be subject to a quick deal"

That is simply not true

The so-called £39bn is agreed liabilities for current projects and commitments plus legally binding costs such as pension costs of UK members and workers at EU

Try leaving a restaurant and saying before I settle my bill I want to negotiate what it will cost me when I come back in

And because of the delayed exit and continued contributions paid it is now closer to £30bn

If we crash out and Johnson reneges on the leaving debt owed what country in the world would want to do business with someone who doesn't settle their bill

Would you?

ade1865
Ade1865
27 September, 2019 08:22
As the DUP no longer hold the balance of power in Parliament BJ has no need of them, hence I do not see, IF we wants a deal that he has to worry about their demands. therefore it seems likely that IF BJ offers a deal it will be much as May did, but with a united Ireland customs union with the customs border in the Irish Sea.

As BJ can clearly not be trusted, surely the DUP must be worried about this.

My question is, do you think it would get support in Parliament?

DanWiley
DanWiley
27 September, 2019 10:38
"Yes it's a big deal for those countries that are net contributors e.g Germany, a shortfall will need filling. It's also a big deal for those hoping to receive funds from the Commission, their applications for same may founder if the pot shrinks without UK contributions..."

Its really not. You can see by the EU's behaviour its not. You can see by OUR behaviour its not, we were happy to pay it. If its not a big deal for one country, its not a big deal for 27 countries, particularly as that includes three economies of a similar size. They have to find a shortfall of what 8 billion a year for a few years. Its an inconvenience, the real impact of no deal, for both us and them, is much, much greater. The difference between no deal for us and them, is that for them it has compensations whereas for us its pretty much all negative.

John Tee
John Tee
27 September, 2019 10:40
Quote:
gaz59
"Any monies due will be subject to a quick deal"
That is simply not true

The so-called £39bn is agreed liabilities for current projects and commitments plus legally binding costs such as pension costs of UK members and workers at EU

Try leaving a restaurant and saying before I settle my bill I want to negotiate what it will cost me when I come back in

And because of the delayed exit and continued contributions paid it is now closer to £30bn

If we crash out and Johnson reneges on the leaving debt owed what country in the world would want to do business with someone who doesn't settle their bill

Would you?

I think withholding the payment is a legitimate tactic.
There is a difference between withholding and outright refusal to pay.
if you wanted to be trucullent, as say, er, France might be...you would make any terms of payment 'conditional'

You may wish to make a case of the amount and the lenght.
It would entirely right for a new administration to consider doing that.

I think it is acknowledged by people like JRM and IDS that a payment is required...but they may contest the amount.
I doubt Johnson would think May's position in the negotiations is either correct or necessarily binding.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
27 September, 2019 13:24
Quote:
DanWiley

Its really not. You can see by the EU's behaviour its not.

Speaking from Europe it IS a big deal. Not particularly because of the amount but because of the political discussions unleashed were it not paid.

Countries in Eastern Europe rightly say if the UK is expected to settle its dues they are expected to receive their dues. Countries like Germany (esp.), NL will never get spending more past their plebiscite.

They don't think it will happen but they are already concerned whether Brexit will lead the EU adopting a more 'socialist' model with greater redistribution of wealth. I suspect on the other side of Europe the concern is the opposite.

Quote:
DanWiley
You can see by OUR behaviour its not, we were happy to pay it.

It's transactional I imagine. It wouldn't be right to think because May negotiated it that the current government feel they are bound by the same sentiment.

Quote:
DanWiley

The difference between no deal for us and them, is that for them it has compensations whereas for us its pretty much all negative.

Neglect the national politics at your peril. The economic concerns are more on our side. The political concerns are more on theirs (and no I don't mean 48% of the population don't want this etc.).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
27 September, 2019 13:33
Quote:
DanWiley
It's really not a that big sum of money in government terms, the 39b 1/4er of the NHS annual budget. Do you really think it's a big deal for the 27 countries?

its less than 1% of UK govenrment spending, 39bn and 17.4m two numbers given wet dream status.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
27 September, 2019 13:37
If it was three years ago you could say all these things about the budget, about how BMW will come to our rescue, how they need us more than we need them.

Clearly they don't give a to$$, time to move on.

John Tee
John Tee
27 September, 2019 14:03
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
DanWiley

Its really not. You can see by the EU's behaviour its not.

Speaking from Europe it IS a big deal. Not particularly because of the amount but because of the political discussions unleashed were it not paid.

Countries in Eastern Europe rightly say if the UK is expected to settle its dues they are expected to receive their dues. Countries like Germany (esp.), NL will never get spending more past their plebiscite.

They don't think it will happen but they are already concerned whether Brexit will lead the EU adopting a more 'socialist' model with greater redistribution of wealth. I suspect on the other side of Europe the concern is the opposite.

Quote:
DanWiley
You can see by OUR behaviour its not, we were happy to pay it.

It's transactional I imagine. It wouldn't be right to think because May negotiated it that the current government feel they are bound by the same sentiment.

Quote:
DanWiley

The difference between no deal for us and them, is that for them it has compensations whereas for us its pretty much all negative.

Neglect the national politics at your peril. The economic concerns are more on our side. The political concerns are more on theirs (and no I don't mean 48% of the population don't want this etc.).

The benefits of the E.u means our £ is currently worth around 50p. What we pay in, what we get back.
By 2022 that £ in is predicted to get just over 30p back.
The redistribution of wealth is already in the equation as far as the U.k is concerned.
I believe only Germany will 'pay' more

So, all those 19 net benefactors will have to contemplate paying in
something... .or the likes of the Dutch will have to.
Both the above will be very popular..lol

gaz59
gaz59
27 September, 2019 16:42
"I think it is acknowledged by people like JRM and IDS that a payment is required...but they may contest the amount."

Unfortunately that one hit the dust right at the start when Dozy Davis went in with no papers and no preparation. The EU were ready and waiting with an itemised bill

If you are going to try to play hard-ball negotiations then at least do your homework or expect to be smashed back off the pitch

kingofthehill
KingoftheHill
27 September, 2019 16:49
Has that bill been published? Can't recall seeing it

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
27 September, 2019 17:41
Latest poll gives Con with a possible overall majority of 70. The BoJo bounce?

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 33% (+3)
LAB: 22% (-1)
LDEM: 22% (-)
BREX: 14% (-)
GRN: 6% (+1)
UKIP: 1% (+1)

via @YouGov, 24 - 25 Sep
Chgs. w/ 20 Sep



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