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Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
11 October, 2019 19:22
Where's that tongue-in-cheek emoji when you need it?winking smiley

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
11 October, 2019 19:28
Quote:
gaz59

He does have a considerably long track record of duplicity in work and personal life

As opposed to which politician exactly?

Quote:
Clarkey3k
I fear that any deal acceptable to the EU will not be acceptable to the Remainers...

Your friendly reminder that parliament has a Remain majority. No deal will pass without the votes of Remain MPs. Maybe even Lisa Nandy will vote for a deal...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
11 October, 2019 19:36
I donít think that Theresa May has a long track of duplicity? Say what you want about her and I know she is very dull / awkward but I think that she played with a straight bat more than most...



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

gaz59
gaz59
11 October, 2019 22:18
Quote:
BathMatt53
I donít think that Theresa May has a long track of duplicity? Say what you want about her and I know she is very dull / awkward but I think that she played with a straight bat more than most...

Would agree with that. She was wooden and totally out of her depth but I would agree she was honest, genuine, worked hard and demonstrated a level of integrity way beyond Johnson. Shame that she brought xero personality and a level of incompetence that managed to surpass even Cameron's low bar

gaz59
gaz59
11 October, 2019 22:18
Quote:
BathMatt53
I donít think that Theresa May has a long track of duplicity? Say what you want about her and I know she is very dull / awkward but I think that she played with a straight bat more than most...

Would agree with that. She was wooden and totally out of her depth but I would agree she was honest, genuine, worked hard and demonstrated a level of integrity way beyond Johnson. Shame that she brought xero personality and a level of incompetence that managed to surpass even Cameron's low bar

John Tee
John Tee
12 October, 2019 08:32
17.4 voted leave....if you have a 3 way question it will solve nothing at all

DanWiley
DanWiley
12 October, 2019 13:01
I think people are proposing some form of transferable or hierarchical vote, so I don't think that's true.

I'd add my local MP, who certainly isn't of my political views, does not appear to be duplicitous in either their personal or political life. I'd says that's true of most local MPs I've experience.

It seems more common the higher you go, but even so I think you can construct a fair list of politicians that are fairly honest.

al Mossah
al Mossah
12 October, 2019 21:10
Quote:
BathMatt53
I donít think that Theresa May has a long track of duplicity? Say what you want about her and I know she is very dull / awkward but I think that she played with a straight bat more than most...
I think she was completely dishonest. She constantly claimed that leaving customs Union and single market was consistent with Belfast agreement. She tried to face both ways.
Like many politicians ( and a few bosses I've known), her ambition at each meeting was limited to saying what platitudes enabled her to survive the week. Boris is similar, except his survival horizon is hours, not days.

How come European countries get leaders like Merkel, Varadkar, Rutte etc, and we end up with a choice of BoJo or Jezza? ( Rhetorical).

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
12 October, 2019 22:51
Not that it matters now, but the vitriolic campaign waged against May by the ERG was frankly a disgrace.

She made mistakes, listened to the wrong people esp over the 2017 Election, but can you imagine having to deal with Jacob R-M et al, and the DUP zealots, let alone treacherous Gove et al.

Must be good to know that revenge is a dish best served cold, and she will get her chance soon

gaz59
gaz59
12 October, 2019 23:05
I am certainly no fan of Mrs May, I think she was inept and way below the skill level required for the time. But I do think she was honest in her efforts and genuinely tried to reach a consensus position. Unfortunately it was ans still is such a divisive issue that consensus was an impossible objective

However it really does look as if coming to the crunch point that Johnson appears to need an agreement more than he hoped, is prepared to concede more than he wanted and is likely to lose more support than he had invisaged

Much like the glaws v bath match Friday night, game momentum seems to have swung and the team previously in control starting to become desperate

And cue for pound and markets tumble so hello to big bonuses for them at the top of that bun fight industry

MESSAGES->author
hemington
13 October, 2019 00:02
I seem to remember buying off the DUP for millions - very honourable.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
13 October, 2019 01:21
Quote:
al Mossah
Quote:
BathMatt53
I donít think that Theresa May has a long track of duplicity? Say what you want about her and I know she is very dull / awkward but I think that she played with a straight bat more than most...
I think she was completely dishonest. She constantly claimed that leaving customs Union and single market was consistent with Belfast agreement. She tried to face both ways.
Like many politicians ( and a few bosses I've known), her ambition at each meeting was limited to saying what platitudes enabled her to survive the week. Boris is similar, except his survival horizon is hours, not days.

How come European countries get leaders like Merkel, Varadkar, Rutte etc, and we end up with a choice of BoJo or Jezza? ( Rhetorical).

The idea that May was not duplicitous does not seem to be rooted in evidence. Remember she had cabinet discussing Max Fac v Customs when she had agreed Chequers months before (with an unelected Robbins).

But then you think Merkel et Al. aren't just as bad.

They are all hopeless politicians who have used technocracy to ignore the burgeoning majorities I'm their countries. Most of them have tacked to the right. They have all bottled up problems for later. They may be loved by the liberal press but they will all cost their countries in the long term, like the beloved Blair did ours...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

John Tee
John Tee
13 October, 2019 07:14
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Not that it matters now, but the vitriolic campaign waged against May by the ERG was frankly a disgrace.
She made mistakes, listened to the wrong people esp over the 2017 Election, but can you imagine having to deal with Jacob R-M et al, and the DUP zealots, let alone treacherous Gove et al.

Must be good to know that revenge is a dish best served cold, and she will get her chance soon

What she did in the negotiations lost her allies within the party.
She may have been well intentioned, but that is subjective and by the same token no one would regard her tenure as a success. No one bought her 'deal'

DanWiley
DanWiley
13 October, 2019 08:23
"no one would regard her tenure as a success"

Boris might when he compares it to his.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
13 October, 2019 10:37
John Tee =so do you believe that we are better off with Johnson (and his fellow travellers)?

Perhaps its a bit early to ask, as we do not currently have a clue as to whether agreement and compromise has been reached in the negotiations. Johnson definitely stopped shouting the odds from the rooftops and even JR-M backtracking (which I think is hilarious btw - he's now made his millions on latest currency fluctuations).

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
13 October, 2019 10:54
As an aside, how is it possibly not a conflict of interest for JRM? Surely he could issue statements at any time which will make the pound go up or down?



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
13 October, 2019 11:58
Quote:
BathMatt53
As an aside, how is it possibly not a conflict of interest for JRM? Surely he could issue statements at any time which will make the pound go up or down?

The FCA would be all over him if he deliberately manipulated the market for his own benefit in that way.

John Tee
John Tee
13 October, 2019 12:20
Quote:
annie blackthorn
John Tee =so do you believe that we are better off with Johnson (and his fellow travellers)?
Perhaps its a bit early to ask, as we do not currently have a clue as to whether agreement and compromise has been reached in the negotiations. Johnson definitely stopped shouting the odds from the rooftops and even JR-M backtracking (which I think is hilarious btw - he's now made his millions on latest currency fluctuations).

Its all in the deal. I dont think May had a strategy to get a good deal, she talked a 'good' game but the real Brexiters, as opposed to May who was never convincing, never liked it.
No idea what labours position would be, they seem to change tact on every poll.

In that respect, Johnson is taken more seriously as a pm by the.U who would walk away...and i think this is is what focuses minds.

Maybe people are generally more realistic about what they might accept... but from a negotiating tactic no deal and Johnson is better than May's hand.

BBandW
BBandW
13 October, 2019 12:28
Just a reminder that the People's Vote March is next Saturday in London- starting 12:00 at Park Lane.

People's March - stop the madness

DanWiley
DanWiley
13 October, 2019 14:11
By the sounds of it Johnson had agreed to put the customs border in the North sea. If he's got a better hand then he's played it pretty badly.

gaz59
gaz59
13 October, 2019 15:25
If that is the concession Johnson has made then he will need to find some very convincing words to present it as something better than May's hash-up just warmed up

Substitute
Substitute
13 October, 2019 23:16
Quote:
gaz59
If that is the concession Johnson has made then he will need to find some very convincing words to present it as something better than May's hash-up just warmed up

There is a big difference between collecting tariffs in the North Sea and NI remaining in the UK Customs Area or NI remaining in an entirely different customs area (where any revenues generated from tariffs would be paid to the EU).

Good deal, bad deal - no knowing without the 'deal'. If the RoI have accepted that NI (and the rest of the UK) are in a separate customs territory then that is a huge concession. It will cost Ireland billions (though less than No Deal). Most of their goods (and many of their services) are processed within and through the UK. Large scale ferrying can only mitigate a small part of that,

But, of course, Remainers and much of the press will never acknowledge that. That might prejudice their attempts to overturn the referendum result. Remember they would do anything to stop No Deal... as long as it is Remain. Anything else is worth risking No Deal for...

Not to mention; remember when everyone said the WA couldn't be reopened? Or the UK couldn't negotiate bilaterally with Ireland?

John Tee
John Tee
14 October, 2019 10:47
Quote:
gaz59
If that is the concession Johnson has made then he will need to find some very convincing words to present it as something better than May's hash-up just warmed up

Maybe all sides are scrambling for the bird in the hand.
Johnson is as weak as he will be ...
if it goes to a GE, all bets are off.

If Johnson comes back from that, his hand is likely to be much stronger should he get a mandate.

Conversely, if he doesnt...he is gone anyway.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
14 October, 2019 11:55
Quote:
BBandW
Just a reminder that the People's Vote March is next Saturday in London- starting 12:00 at Park Lane.
People's March - stop the madness

Already got my National Express ticket

BBandW
BBandW
14 October, 2019 20:02
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BBandW
Just a reminder that the People's Vote March is next Saturday in London- starting 12:00 at Park Lane.
People's March - stop the madness

Already got my National Express ticket

Southern Rail return from Bognor for me.

gaz59
gaz59
15 October, 2019 21:33
No doubt the likes of the daily mail expressel and telegraph will big up Johnson's deal but as lord sugar is so fond of saying "any fool can sell stuff for nothing"

Expect labour, lib dems, snp etc to emphasise this looks very similar to the proposed deal that may said no British prime minister could ever agree

But it's not about the deal, it's all about Johnson clinging to the keys of no 10

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 October, 2019 06:47
Should we really be going ahead with this?

[www.bbc.co.uk]

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
16 October, 2019 06:59
Britain wonít be able to afford to @#$%& about any longer - Sky reports that Brexit uncertainty has already cost the economy £70BN through stifled growth. Whatever happens (in or out) I hope that a firm decision is made by 31st Oct. there will never be an overwhelming majority from the general population for either option, of that Iím certain.



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
16 October, 2019 10:54
Whatever!


Still goes back to whether the government can get the deal passed in the Commons.
wonder if Team Boris are regretting sacking the 21 whingeing whimperers (as described by James Gray MP for North Wiltshire) as how many of them will bother to turn up let alone vote. The DUP and bitter twisted rump of ERG might still hold the balance.

John Tee
John Tee
16 October, 2019 12:33
Not sure he will regret that.. .i think he calculated he would get nothing from them anyway as they really want to stay.

i think he will hope he can clear the decks in a GE and now will be trying to get a deal with Farage.
All this is leverage to get the E.U to agree a deal..hence bird in the hand.

The E.U will only go for that if they think Johnson will comeback from a GE with a mandate.

warrenball
warrenball
16 October, 2019 18:36
What have we heard of the EU position during negotiations - nothing. They agreed a position, everyone got behind the EU negotiators and there was no backtracking, even in the media.

In the UK we have argued and bickered and carried out our discussions in the full glare of publicity, thanks to the media. Theresa May had only one chance at this and got it horribly wrong, now we are almost bound to end with the worst of all worlds and leaving with a very bad deal. As I see it there are only two options, leave without a deal or revoke, any deal must be heavily weighted in favour of the Europeans and we will be at their mercy for years to come.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 October, 2019 15:45
Not sure I believe what appears to be happening?
If Junkers is a barometer of the EU parliament and has ruled out an extension then the vote on Saturday is for the deal or a no deal. Does that mean if the Lib Dems, Labour and DUP oppose it they are voting for a NO DEAL Brexit.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
17 October, 2019 15:51
Guess so. Love Farage and his mock outrage!!

I think that Corbyn basically wants it to fail so that he makes Boris look bad and can win a GE. Pretty sure thatís not gonna happen though (not with him at the helm anyway),

Personally I hope it gets through one all sides (I voted remain) - has to be better than no deal IMO (or more delays and then no deal).



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
17 October, 2019 16:00
Quote:
shipwrecked
Not sure I believe what appears to be happening?
If Junkers is a barometer of the EU parliament and has ruled out an extension then the vote on Saturday is for the deal or a no deal. Does that mean if the Lib Dems, Labour and DUP oppose it they are voting for a NO DEAL Brexit.

I think you can still bet on parliament wagering and holding out on a 2nd referendum.

They could stop Brexit by revoking but it would cost many of them their jobs. So they'll continue playing their stupid games to avoid any kind of democratic accountability and play games with our lives.

Especially because the future relationship is still entirely up for grabs. EFTA, Customs Union, Level Playing Field etc. are compatible with it. So when they pretend to rationalize it what they really mean is they want no Brexit.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 October, 2019 16:00
If that is the case then the MPs might as well stay at home and watch the England v Australia game. Slightly ironic that for all the political manoeuvring it's the EU that force our hand.😳



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
17 October, 2019 16:01
Quote:
BathMatt53
Guess so. Love Farage and his mock outrage!!
I think that Corbyn basically wants it to fail so that he makes Boris look bad and can win a GE. Pretty sure thatís not gonna happen though (not with him at the helm anyway),

Personally I hope it gets through one all sides (I voted remain) - has to be better than no deal IMO (or more delays and then no deal).

+ 1 the uncertainty is not good for either side.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

DanWiley
DanWiley
17 October, 2019 17:03
I'm not sure it will get through parliament and I'm not sure Boris is bothered either way? No deal or his deal seems a win for him.

I would expect Bercow or someone to stick an extra option on the table that will make it not a straight shoot off between No deal or his deal, but its a decent attempt.

I'm really not convinced that the uncertainly of whether we do the stupid thing is really worse than actually doing the stupid thing. I'm probably not going to invest in someone who I think is going to jump off a cliff, but I'm really not going to invest in someone who actually has.

P G Tips
P G Tips
17 October, 2019 17:29
Quote:
shipwrecked
Not sure I believe what appears to be happening?
If Junkers is a barometer of the EU parliament and has ruled out an extension then the vote on Saturday is for the deal or a no deal. Does that mean if the Lib Dems, Labour and DUP oppose it they are voting for a NO DEAL Brexit.

All the DUP position shows is that they never compromise.
Unionist? Ironically they could be the party that does most to accelerate the breakup of the Union.

PG

John Tee
John Tee
17 October, 2019 17:44
I dont believe Juncker....has he been drinking?

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
17 October, 2019 18:16
Quote:
DanWiley
I
I would expect Bercow or someone to stick an extra option on the table that will make it not a straight shoot off between No deal or his deal, but its a decent attempt.

Constitutional vandalism for partisan reasons (and would be yet further precedent overthrown).

This parliament needs to go.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

John Tee
John Tee
17 October, 2019 19:04
in view of this Agreement, then maybe no one to chance a GE then..?

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
17 October, 2019 19:38
Quote:
John Tee
in view of this Agreement, then maybe no one to chance a GE then..?

SNP tabling a motion on Saturdays debate to force an extension in order to hold a GE



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
17 October, 2019 19:50
I would genuinely not know who to vote for if there was a GE tbh. Not one of them is a genuinely attractive proposition in both the short and long term.

[Boris has clearly asked Juncker to say that in order to force Parliament to make a decision]



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/10/2019 19:58 by BathMatt53.

gaz59
gaz59
17 October, 2019 20:06
Will be hilarious to see May's face as she walks through the lobby to vote for Johnson's deal

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 October, 2019 09:02
"Constitutional vandalism for partisan reasons (and would be yet further precedent overthrown)."

Really, in what way would it be violating the constitution? Which precedent would be overthrown?

"This parliament needs to go."

It will, Boris has ensured that. You might not be happy with what we get in its place though.

John Tee
John Tee
18 October, 2019 09:09
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
John Tee
in view of this Agreement, then maybe no one to chance a GE then..?

SNP tabling a motion on Saturdays debate to force an extension in order to hold a GE

I bet they are popular with Corbyn then because if he doesnt perform well, and polls suggest he might not, then he will face a leadership challenge and even momentum must realise it is time for someone new.

Johnson knows a GE is coming so he might also expect 325 plus Mp's depending on which poll you follow.

That all means that mp's will not be keen to go against their constituencies in the weekend votes...?

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
18 October, 2019 09:51
This deal with a confirmatory referendum with a straight Johnstonís (Aka May mk2) deal v revoke.

That would settle it once and for all.

Iíd even vote for that.

J

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
18 October, 2019 10:01
Quote:
shipwrecked
Not sure I believe what appears to be happening?
If Junkers is a barometer of the EU parliament and has ruled out an extension then the vote on Saturday is for the deal or a no deal. Does that mean if the Lib Dems, Labour and DUP oppose it they are voting for a NO DEAL Brexit.

That's what you're meant to believe. Junker and the EP don't decide, the 27 other heads of govt do.
In reality, if the vote is lost on Saturday, Johnson will be forced to ask for an extension and it will be granted provided there is a good reason, i.e. election or referendum.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
18 October, 2019 12:02
Quote:
DanWiley
"
It will, Boris has ensured that. You might not be happy with what we get in its place though.

I think it's pretty much guaranteed I won't be happy but at least these parliamentarians will have had to face the people for the lies, uncertainty and distress they have caused the British people in trying to overturn their vote without taking the responsibility for doing so.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
18 October, 2019 12:44
Now the SNP are arguing that if the deal passes parliament then the same parliament should remove confidence in the government and have an election.

We're truly through the looking glass here...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 October, 2019 15:32
From what I can see they are saving the people from the lies, uncertainty and distress. What are they gaining from taking this line?

However, looking at the polls I think you might be wrong. The number of people who actually want no deal is a relatively small fraction. Much smaller than, for example, those that want no brexit. The number of people who want May's deal, or anything like it, smaller still.

kingofthehill
KingoftheHill
18 October, 2019 15:58
Quote:
DanWiley
However, looking at the polls I think you might be wrong. The number of people who actually want no deal is a relatively small fraction. Much smaller than, for example, those that want no brexit. The number of people who want May's deal, or anything like it, smaller still.

Not sure what polls you have seen. Latest poll gives Leave with Johnson deal 30% / Leave with No Deal 17% / Remain 38% / Don't Know 15%

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
18 October, 2019 16:04
Common sense would now suggest it's time for a second referendum vote on 'leave with the best negotiated deal possible (assuming that's the Bojo plan with political declaration leading to FTA)' versus remain.

I'd be supremely happy if commitment to honour and execute the round 2 result came with an accompanying commitment to consign Johnson's grin, Corbyn's scowl, Swinson smugness, and Sturgeon's arrogance to the vaults of history. Farage too of course ...

Sort out Brexit one way for another and then let's take a new broom to the political leadership.

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 October, 2019 16:14
The only people I can really see having a problem with that is those that think they'll lose (and maybe some that can't be bothered).

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
18 October, 2019 18:05
I am pretty concerned about what would happen if there was a 2nd ref and it resulted in remain. I am sure that it would kick off massively and wouldnít be at all good.



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
18 October, 2019 18:11
Quote:
BathMatt53
I am pretty concerned about what would happen if there was a 2nd ref and it resulted in remain. I am sure that it would kick off massively and wouldnít be at all good.

+1

I wouldn't be surprised if anarchists used a remain vote in a 2nd ref to cause civil unrest and violence on the streets.

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 October, 2019 18:22
I'm not sure. I don't think we're that much of a thuggish nation and if they do manage to get the louts out in force I suspect they'll overstep the mark the give the police an excuse to beat the@#$%&out of them.

Either way it's no reason not to have a referendum.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
18 October, 2019 18:43
There are 17 million of them and only 1 police officer at the last count. I assume that they would send out a CSO a couple of days later if anything happened in Bath? Some towns in the Lincolnshire etc voted 70% leave - I wouldnít want to be there if it came to pass.

Agree with you OB I think that a lot of people are pretty vexed and looking for an excuse to smash stuff up. This seems like a reasonable one.

[at least we got some good experience in Toulouse in Jan!]



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/10/2019 18:44 by BathMatt53.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
18 October, 2019 18:52
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm not sure. I don't think we're that much of a thuggish nation and if they do manage to get the louts out in force I suspect they'll overstep the mark the give the police an excuse to beat the@#$%&out of them.
Either way it's no reason not to have a referendum.

The XR rabble have shown that we have some elements in the country that have thuggish behaviour in them.

I agree though if a 2nd referendum is required the threat of violence shouldn't put us off holding one.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 October, 2019 19:32
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm not sure. I don't think we're that much of a thuggish nation and if they do manage to get the louts out in force I suspect they'll overstep the mark the give the police an excuse to beat the@#$%&out of them.

That almost sounds like you are condoning police taking violent action on people embarking on a political protest.

I don't think XR have been violent, nether was the reaction that violent, pulling a guy from the top of a train when you are trying to get to work is understandable. XR need to choose their targets better!

Violence on property is acceptable if the cause is right. Violence against people is never right!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
18 October, 2019 19:40
To be fair SW they pulled him off the train and then kicked 7 bells out of him which is why a few stepped in.



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 October, 2019 22:27
If all that's going to happen is protests like xr I don't see a problem. Quite happy for people to protest like that, if people really want brexit that much then it's encourage them to do so. But don't kid yourself into thinking it will be in the millions.

What was suggested was brexiteers taking it way further than that. I think that would be a small number, I think it could be nasty, I think it would be dealt with.

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
18 October, 2019 22:49
Quote:
Shipwrecked
Violence on property is acceptable if the cause is right.

So basically youíre saying acceptable to smash up something others have worked for just because you cant get your own way. Utter utter tripe.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 October, 2019 23:59
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
Shipwrecked
Violence on property is acceptable if the cause is right.

So basically youíre saying acceptable to smash up something others have worked for just because you cant get your own way. Utter utter tripe.

Disappointing that you make such an extreme extrapolation from one sentence but to give you an answer it depends on who owns the property and what it represents.

As an example would it be wrong to damage a statue glorifying slavery belonging to someone who had worked hard but built their wealth on the misery of others?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 October, 2019 00:18
I think Dan is right, I do not expect any sort of 'uprising' irrespective of the result. I do not particularly like the implication that one group off supporters are going to 'kick off' as a result of a vote.
I would expect that vote to be respected whatever it was. In fact it is the fact that a vote of the people might be discarded that precipitated 3 years of political and legal chatter in the first place.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

ade1865
Ade1865
19 October, 2019 19:34
So can anyone tell me what happened today in words of one syllable, cos now I'm totally lost.

DanWiley
DanWiley
19 October, 2019 21:43
Oliver put an extra bit on the thing they are voting on that says we want to see the law that is going to happen before we totally agree to the thing you've agreed with the EU talking people. Oliver was scared that the idea might change and either not become law, meaning no deal happens, or the law really meant no deal. The MPs agreed with this idea meaning that there was no point bojo putting his idea to vote as that was just the idea not the actual law and even if the MPs agreed, Boris would have to ask for an extension anyway as until his idea was written down as a future law the MPs wouldn't agree and it takes too long to make these things law.

Other laws now say Boris has to ask for an extension but Boris disagrees. We now wait to see if Boris has any way of legally not asking for an extension or if there's a nice ditch he knows of.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
19 October, 2019 22:17
Sounds like itís 3 letters - one unsigned which says please extend. 1 signed which says I didnít really mean the first one and the third from the government lawyer saying that he only sent the first one because he had to and that this is all legal (so there).



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 October, 2019 04:44
The words "juvenile hissy-fit" spring to mind.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

ade1865
Ade1865
20 October, 2019 08:30
Thanks Dan. I think I get the fist of it. Just wonder why, if he's not a deal, there's worry that he would not do that deal. Or is it that they want to undertake legislation this week to make it law?

John Tee
John Tee
20 October, 2019 09:48
General election, no question.

Any move towards a referendum is now clear that the protagonists
really mean, 1st one does not count and we want to remain anyway.

Put that to the voters.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 October, 2019 10:14
Quote:
John Tee
General election, no question.
Any move towards a referendum is now clear that the protagonists
really mean, 1st one does not count and we want to remain anyway.

Put that to the voters.

Given that the deal on offer bears no relationship whatsoever to what was originally promised for Brexit, that seems a fair solution.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Barnoid
Barnoid
20 October, 2019 11:47
Let's be clear: I've been saying all along that the (non-binding) 2016 referendum was effectively asking the people, "Would you like us to explore opportunities for leaving the EU?"

Having been instructed to do that, the Tories have spent 3.5 years fighting themselves over what variant of a reasonably hard-Brexit they want, without properly engaging anyone else on the political spectrum. The turd of a deal they've arrived at is not wanted by the DUP, hard no-dealers, soft brexiteers, those who voted to remain but who are open to some kind of compromise leave deal, or ardent remainiacs.

The correct and surely ONLY thing to do now is to put the negotiated deal to a democratic test with a referendum: Boris's deal vs remain.

Anyone who isn't happy with the Brexit option on the referendum must look to the Tory party: they have been in power throughout this process - and are entirely responsible for the deal as well as the position the country finds itself in now.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
20 October, 2019 12:32
Hopefully this deal will now get through. It is the best on offer & respects the referendum which was to leave not ďto explore opportunities for leaving the EUĒ If not it is not at all clear the EU will grant a pointless extension & we will end up with no deal which most sane people do not want. Time to get this done.

John Tee
John Tee
20 October, 2019 12:32
i think you would blame the whole house.

Hard line didn't want May's deal bit lets not prentend many many mp's want want Brexit at all.
At least voters can ask their mp exactly where they stand...and then look at their voting record should they suspect they are hedging too much.

But of course, many mp's want to avoid that ..hence talk about a referendum.

Barnoid
Barnoid
20 October, 2019 12:51
I couldnít disagree more strongly: I think you can and must categorically blame the government for where we are. 3.5 years in charge, with varying degrees of a majority, and theyíve failed to get a deal they can all agree on. How is that anyone else's fault or problem?

Had they worked together and got something done, perhaps accepting *gasp* compromise... are you telling me they wouldnít be claiming that as their collective success and a defeat for the opposition?

John Tee
John Tee
20 October, 2019 13:18
what did the house vote for yesterday... they cant say they voted for Brexit. That one is completely and utterly out of the bag.

You know where you stand with Lib Dems, you know what Johnson wants but labour dont know which way to turn...and will adjust their position any which way to suit even Dianne Abbot is confused.

Yesterday was crystal clear to the electorate...so all those mp's can now answer to them.

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 October, 2019 16:01
Can we establish whether a majority of this country want either no deal brexit or boris' deal. I've a very strong suspicion they don't.

After that, you're right, let's have an election. But let's not muddy the water by having some odd hybrid electrum. You'll get the wrong answer to both questions.

John Tee
John Tee
20 October, 2019 17:36
Johnson would be mad to grant a referendum ..and the muddled thinking on that one is that it will take months to organise and the government sets the question.
Non starter, apart from the small fact that the result of the first one has been ignored so in an era of very very low trust and faith in Parliament why would anyone ...anyone... entertain it.

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 October, 2019 18:06
The first referendum clearly hasn't been ignored. I don't think it's in Johnson's gift to decide anymore and few months to get this right seems well worth it.

It's pretty clear 50% of the country don't want no deal, polls don't even get close. It's really not clear that boris' deal is any more appealing. So if we leave with no deal then all this bs about the will of the people is shown to be just that. It doesn't even have a vague grounding in the truth.

hooter
hooter
20 October, 2019 19:26
Dianne abbot always sounds confused. The referendum question should be boris's deal or no deal.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
20 October, 2019 21:00
Quote:
hooter
Dianne abbot always sounds confused. The referendum question should be boris's deal or no deal.

That would not be allowed by the Electoral Commission as it is not fair on remain voters!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

DanWiley
DanWiley
20 October, 2019 21:19
Not mention why? When those two options only represent a fraction of the population?

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
20 October, 2019 22:14
The fact is the country has already voted to leave the UK. Any referendum if it is felt necessary should be about how we leave I.e. Johnsonís deal or no deal. It is also ridiculous to place all the blame on the Conservatives for failing to get a deal through when a majority of Parliament are ignoring the referendum result including the so called liberal DEMOCRATS.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 October, 2019 23:11
Quote:
Bath Hammer
It is also ridiculous to place all the blame on the Conservatives for failing to get a deal through when a majority of Parliament are ignoring the referendum result including the so called liberal DEMOCRATS.

Who have been adamantly against Brexit from the get-go. The duty of Her Majesty's Opposition is to oppose, which they have done very effectively, not to roll over for any deranged policy the Government of the day makes up as it goes along.

And as for Bozo not granting a second referendum, Her Majesty's Government serves at the pleasure of Parliament. If Parliament decides to hold a second referendum then it is the law of the land. Bozo has no say in it because he does not have the votes. The only thing he can do is resign.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 00:06
They are not opposing the Government. They are opposing the democratic will of the people. It seems manifestly obvious to me and I voted remain.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
21 October, 2019 01:51
Quote:
Bath Hammer
They are not opposing the Government. They are opposing the democratic will of the people. It seems manifestly obvious to me and I voted remain.

It seems to me that the Labour party have been consistent in saying they wish to respect the result of the referendum. What is at issue is *how* it is to be respected and that it is the Government's position on that which is being opposed so effectively.

I have to say, having had direct experience of both, that I am a lot more impressed by the robustness and flexibility of parliamentary democracy than I am by the Congressional version.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 21/10/2019 02:03 by joethefanatic.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 02:26
But the labour front benchís policy that we leave the EU but remain in the two main organisations within it, the Customs Union & the Single Market, seems a ludicrous proposition. We certainly would be better off staying in than adopting that position. There has been a considerable lack of flexibility & compromise from the two extreme wings of the Conservative party but their official line, whether under May or Johnson, has seemed quite pragmatic & balanced to me. Itís also interesting to see the level of respect Johnson has now garnered from EU leaders.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
21 October, 2019 03:59
Quote:
Bath Hammer
But the labour front benchís policy that we leave the EU but remain in the two main organisations within it, the Customs Union & the Single Market, seems a ludicrous proposition.

Why is it ludicrous? One of the promises made by the Leave campaign was "frictionless trade with the EU". The only way to deliver that promise (approved by the sainted "sovereign will of the people" in the referendum) is to stay in the customs union and the single market.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/10/2019 04:12 by joethefanatic.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 04:14
So, assuming for one minute that you are in favour of leaving the EU. If you stay in those institutions what are the benefits of leaving? Surely itís much the same as staying in or am I missing something?

DanWiley
DanWiley
21 October, 2019 07:37
Put another way, I would still feel like I was losing something, albeit not as much, if we left the EU and remained in the cu and sm. I guess on that basis those that see the EU as something they don't want to be a part of have gained.

That option represents a leave vote just as much as no deal does. It was discussed in length during the campaign whereas no deal was really only mentioned to say it shouldn't happen for the most part.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 08:15
Thatís utterly disingenuous. I certainly donít recall it being discussed. On the contrary prominent leavers & remainers all said that if we voted to leave we would be leaving both of those institutions. It makes absolute no sense to leave but still have to conform to the 4 freedoms & have no ability to strike free trade deals. How can anyone justify that stance with any integrity?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
21 October, 2019 08:43
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Thatís utterly disingenuous. I certainly donít recall it being discussed. On the contrary prominent leavers & remainers all said that if we voted to leave we would be leaving both of those institutions. It makes absolute no sense to leave but still have to conform to the 4 freedoms & have no ability to strike free trade deals. How can anyone justify that stance with any integrity?

I remember £350 million a week for the NHS being promised as well but no one's even bothering to pretend that that will happen any more.

"Integrity" is not the first word that occurs to me when asked describe this whole affair. "Clusterfeck" probably comes to mind the fastest.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

John Tee
John Tee
21 October, 2019 09:15
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Thatís utterly disingenuous. I certainly donít recall it being discussed. On the contrary prominent leavers & remainers all said that if we voted to leave we would be leaving both of those institutions. It makes absolute no sense to leave but still have to conform to the 4 freedoms & have no ability to strike free trade deals. How can anyone justify that stance with any integrity?

I remember £350 million a week for the NHS being promised as well but no one's even bothering to pretend that that will happen any more.

"Integrity" is not the first word that occurs to me when asked describe this whole affair. "Clusterfeck" probably comes to mind the fastest.

Where was 350million promised for the NHS?

It would nice but i dont recall that figure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/10/2019 09:21 by John Tee.

ade1865
Ade1865
21 October, 2019 09:41
Where were you?

Or are you playing a game of politician impersonation?

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
21 October, 2019 09:59
The £350m was debated on the original 2016 thread I can recall arguing with Malco that it was wrong and I can recall copying a letter from the ONS admonishing the leave campaign for the misleading statement. I think everyone knew it was incorrect and canít make an excuse of that for a further ref.

As regards being in the CU that does not bring powers back which was pledged and will mean complying with ECJ.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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John Tee
John Tee
21 October, 2019 10:07
how was it wrong?

JFPC
JFPC
21 October, 2019 10:38
Quote:
John Tee
how was it wrong?

Are you trying to he funny or do you genuinely not know?



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 11:47
I think the point is that the figure quoted was misleading as it was a gross figure rather than net which is the case. The fact is that the the campaign group concerned was not the Government nor even a political party so had no power to promise anything which anyone with a modicum of common sense should have realised. However it was wrong & an own goal. I am sure though that just have many would have voted to remain because they thought they would be immediately unemployed or thousands of pounds poorer straight after the referendum, equally misleading in my view. However, my point hasnít been addressed. How can remaining in the CU & SM be an effective exit & satisfy those who wished to leave? It is more honest in my view to say we should revoke Article 50 than pretend that is the case.

John Tee
John Tee
21 October, 2019 12:08
Well JFC said 350mill was promised to the NHS so i thought it was a reasonable question, that is all.

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