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John Tee
John Tee
21 October, 2019 12:15
Quote:
Bath Hammer
I think the point is that the figure quoted was misleading as it was a gross figure rather than net which is the case. The fact is that the the campaign group concerned was not the Government nor even a political party so had no power to promise anything which anyone with a modicum of common sense should have realised. However it was wrong & an own goal. I am sure though that just have many would have voted to remain because they thought they would be immediately unemployed or thousands of pounds poorer straight after the referendum, equally misleading in my view. However, my point hasn’t been addressed. How can remaining in the CU & SM be an effective exit & satisfy those who wished to leave? It is more honest in my view to say we should revoke Article 50 than pretend that is the case.

Which was kind of my point when i said the cat is truly out of the bag because mp's arent posturing over a deal...they are trying to stop Brexit completely.

If that is the case just come out and say that.

The problem for Corbyn is he is being twisted and turned by all and sundry in his party, but no one wants to see it this side of the election because they'll likely get hammered by the North.

The simple solution was for mp's to follow the way their constituents voted.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 12:21
Who is JFC - Jeremy Corbyn?

DanWiley
DanWiley
21 October, 2019 12:43
"they are trying to stop Brexit completely."

Some are, most are not I think. There's a clearly a majority that don't want no deal, as it happens I suspect they DO reflect their constituencies in that regard. I suspect that if a sensible deal was put before them (assuming such a thing is possible) they'd vote it through.

"The simple solution was for mp's to follow the way their constituents voted."

What would be the point in MPs then? The intention of MPs isn't to have a proxy for the majority in their constituency at a given moment in time. They are supposed to implement what they think is best in the medium and long term for their constituency and be elected on that record or perceived ability.

John Tee
John Tee
21 October, 2019 12:57
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Who is JFC - Jeremy Corbyn?

lol. meant joethefanatic.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
21 October, 2019 12:58
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Bath Hammer
It is also ridiculous to place all the blame on the Conservatives for failing to get a deal through when a majority of Parliament are ignoring the referendum result including the so called liberal DEMOCRATS.

.........The duty of Her Majesty's Opposition is to oppose, ...............

That is so, so wrong, but is one of the root causes of so many issues this country has - the politics of confrontation. The job of the opposition is to scrutinise, to question, to suggest and propose. It is not to oppose for opposings sake, which sadly is exactly what corbyn has been doing for the last couple of years.

As for any suggestion of staying in the Customs Union & single Market whilst not being members - that has to be the worst of all worlds - contribute financially but have no say in the making of any rules, regulations or the direction of travel? Far more sensible to back staying and have a seat at the table for no added cost.

DanWiley
DanWiley
21 October, 2019 13:02
By the way, to say Norway and access to the single market etc wasn't discussed as part of the referendum campaign is just nonsense

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
21 October, 2019 13:10
You are right it was mentioned by Daniel Hannan but it was very low key.

DanWiley
DanWiley
21 October, 2019 13:22
It really wasn't. Are you saying yougov, and many others, polled people on the basis of an option that nobody was advocating? Just pulled it out of their ... Come, be honest, with yourself if no one else, there was plenty of talk about it not to mention from plenty of brexiteers:

'Brexit does not mean the UK will leave the single market'
Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP who is often described as the “godfather of Brexit” repeatedly assured voters that Britain would not leave the single market if they voted to leave the EU.

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market,” he said.

Owen Paterson, a Tory MP and a prominent campaigner for Vote Leave made similar claims.
“Only a madman would actually leave the market,” Mr Paterson said.

Following the referendum Oliver Norgrove, a former Vote Leave staffer, who supports staying in the single market, urged people to check the official campaign’s website and official literature – noting that the things they had campaigned for were “utterly achievable in the EEA and make no mention at all of leaving the single market”.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
22 October, 2019 08:00
He wrote: "At Prime Minister's Questions today, you told the House that I had once said: 'Only a madman would leave the Single Market.' I did not say this. However, it is a very common misquotation, frequently repeated on Twitter, so I can understand how you have been unwittingly misled."

Mr Paterson explained how part of the quote had originated from a TV interview.

He said: "In an interview with Dermot Murnaghan for Sky News in October 2015, I said: 'Only a madman would actually leave the market. It's not the EU, which is a political organisation, delivering the prosperity and buying our goods. It's the market. It's the members of the market and we will carry on trading with the market. Are we really suggesting that the fifth largest economy in the world is not going to come to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU? Are we going to be like Sudan and North Korea? I mean, it's ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a cliff into a dark space. We will carry on trading'."

Mr Paterson's correspondence concludes by asking Mr Corbyn to make his colleagues aware of its content.

He said: "I hope that this is clear and that you will avoid misquoting me in future. I would be grateful if you would draw your colleagues' attention to this letter so that they do not make a similar mistake."

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
22 October, 2019 08:21
Oliver Norgrove has changed his mind & wants to remain in the EU which he is perfectly entitled to do. Daniel Hannan has always taken a minority view that staying affiliated to the single market I.e. joining EFTA is a good option. There is now little support for that view. Nor much enthusiasm for it from its current members. He didn’t advocate actually staying in the single market.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
22 October, 2019 10:16
Quote:
John Tee
Well JFC said 350mill was promised to the NHS so i thought it was a reasonable question, that is all.
Malco was in complete denial about this. When confronted with this image [www.google.com] He claimed it was fake!
You can debate the veracity of the £350m (Gross contribution).
What you can't debate is that if you leave the EU you will have saved £350m, all of which you can spend on the NHS. Clearly and demonstrably a lie at the time. And even Malco knew it. Hence his denial of reality.

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 October, 2019 10:34
None the less clearly all this was being discussed. As I say, just look at the results of a poll just days before the referendum to see it was very much an option people were considering. To say people didn't believe leave could mean staying in the SM/CU is just nonsense.

However, reading your quote, he seems to be very much saying he'd like to remain IN the market but not in the political mechanisms of the EU. Which is exactly what I was saying was being discussed.

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 October, 2019 10:37
"Daniel Hannan has always taken a minority view that staying affiliated to the single market I.e. joining EFTA is a good option."

Yes, he has. Malco championed him if I recall. So the chair of vote leave was activily promoting staying in the market in various forms. Again it was very much an option that was being suggested.

The evidence is clear. What there isn't is a clear message from the official campaigns that leave means leaving the CU or SM.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
22 October, 2019 10:41
Quote:
John Tee
Which was kind of my point when i said the cat is truly out of the bag because mp's aren't posturing over a deal...they are trying to stop Brexit completely.
Which MPs are trying to stop Brexit completely?
The ERG hard core who voted against Theresa May's deal 3 times?
The DUP who don't fancy the view from under the wheels of a Boris bus?
The Tory rebels slung out of the party to trying to avoid no deal, but will still vote for any deal, no matter how bad because they 'respect the referendum result'?
The SNP whose country voted to remain, but are being dragged out anyway?
The Libdems who have been consistently and clearly pro-remain, giving some sort of voice to the 48%.
Labour, an 80% remain party, with a few hard core leavers, led by a leaver who does a very bad job pretending to be remainerish?

MPs are a very easy target at the moment, but to paint them all with the same brush is stupid. To those who label them enemies of the people, be careful what you wish for! You elected them in 2017. Nobody elected Johnson and his right wing cabal (well maybe 100,000 party members).

BTW, did you know the 'journalist' James Slack who wrote the original Daily Mail 'Enemies of the People' headline is now Boris Johnson's official spokesman at No10. His predecessor at the DM James Chapman also became a government advisor. Sometimes, I wonder who controls who.



BATH supporter since 1975

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John Tee
John Tee
22 October, 2019 11:10
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
John Tee
Well JFC said 350mill was promised to the NHS so i thought it was a reasonable question, that is all.
Malco was in complete denial about this. When confronted with this image [www.google.com] He claimed it was fake!
You can debate the veracity of the £350m (Gross contribution).
What you can't debate is that if you leave the EU you will have saved £350m, all of which you can spend on the NHS. Clearly and demonstrably a lie at the time. And even Malco knew it. Hence his denial of reality.

I can't see that link...
You could spend what you saved on the NHS in theory...I'm just trying to find out who said they would.

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 October, 2019 11:14
Malco tried the line that:

"We send the EU £350m a week: let's fund our NHS instead"

Doesn't mean that the £350m will go to the NHS. Ermm... well. If you can read that in that way with any level of integrity perhaps a career in politics really is for you.

ade1865
Ade1865
22 October, 2019 11:24

John Tee
John Tee
22 October, 2019 11:27
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
John Tee
Which was kind of my point when i said the cat is truly out of the bag because mp's aren't posturing over a deal...they are trying to stop Brexit completely.
Which MPs are trying to stop Brexit completely?
The ERG hard core who voted against Theresa May's deal 3 times?
The DUP who don't fancy the view from under the wheels of a Boris bus?
The Tory rebels slung out of the party to trying to avoid no deal, but will still vote for any deal, no matter how bad because they 'respect the referendum result'?
The SNP whose country voted to remain, but are being dragged out anyway?
The Libdems who have been consistently and clearly pro-remain, giving some sort of voice to the 48%.
Labour, an 80% remain party, with a few hard core leavers, led by a leaver who does a very bad job pretending to be remainerish?

MPs are a very easy target at the moment, but to paint them all with the same brush is stupid. To those who label them enemies of the people, be careful what you wish for! You elected them in 2017. Nobody elected Johnson and his right wing cabal (well maybe 100,000 party members).

BTW, did you know the 'journalist' James Slack who wrote the original Daily Mail 'Enemies of the People' headline is now Boris Johnson's official spokesman at No10. His predecessor at the DM James Chapman also became a government advisor. Sometimes, I wonder who controls who.

Not sure you could argue the Erg are trying to stop it... so i wouldnt.
The Dup position is clear...they don't want any separation.

The Labour party has huge members opposed which all they have done, apart from made Corbyn squirm, is oppose.

Lib Dems are remain so they want to stop it.

Im quite relaxed about the outcom in the next few days because the Election is coming and who ever gets the mandate will be able to push on and complete this.

John Tee
John Tee
22 October, 2019 11:36
Quote:
DanWiley
Malco tried the line that:
"We send the EU £350m a week: let's fund our NHS instead"

Doesn't mean that the £350m will go to the NHS. Ermm... well. If you can read that in that way with any level of integrity perhaps a career in politics really is for you.

Seriously. ..... got any more cheap jibes.. so thanks for that I'll not bother with your posts anymore.

I would suggest that no one in their right mind would think the whole amount would go there unless an exact figure was committed.
That was a bus slogan ...and hints at a suggestion.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
22 October, 2019 11:42
The £350m was argued on this part of the original thread [m.rugbynetwork.net]

The whole thread is on our links page for those of you with a strong constitution!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
22 October, 2019 12:02
Quote:
DanWiley
Malco tried the line that:
"We send the EU £350m a week: let's fund our NHS instead"

Doesn't mean that the £350m will go to the NHS. Ermm... well. If you can read that in that way with any level of integrity perhaps a career in politics really is for you.

That was on the bus. The Vote Leave one I failed to link to and malco denied was:

'Let's give the NHS the £350m the EU take every week'.

No disingenuous wriggle room there. None.

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 October, 2019 12:43
"I would suggest that no one in their right mind would think the whole amount would go there unless an exact figure was committed.
That was a bus slogan ...and hints at a suggestion."

And you don't think people take slogan's on the side of a bus seriously? Makes you wonder why they bothered driving it around everywhere with them.

I would suggest that people ARE influenced by large adverts and that the intention was definitely to indicate that £350 million would be going to the NHS.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
22 October, 2019 12:52
I am a bit puzzled as the May Government committed to providing the NHS an extra £20bn from 2022

£350m x 52 = £18.2bn

So the slogan on the bus was in fact an understatement?

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 October, 2019 15:44
or just totally unrelated as the £350m doesn't actually exist and, even if it did, has long since become irrelevant given what we've already lost. Not to mention given we're not actually saving ANY money yet and we'll have a different government by the time we do, so her promise is pretty much irrelevant.

I think you're thinking of May's Magic Money tree being used to prop up our economy.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
22 October, 2019 17:47
Oh I see that's very helpful

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
22 October, 2019 20:09
In the immortal words...

[www.youtube.com]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
23 October, 2019 07:57
And, especially if you are not familiar with the work of The First Dog On The Moon (who is Australian), I can thoroughly recommend this...

[www.theguardian.com]?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 23/10/2019 08:01 by joethefanatic.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
24 October, 2019 01:03
It amazes me how hung up people get on this one bit of misinformation. It seems to be a forlorn attempt to provide cover for ignoring the result if the referendum. When anyone highlights the effect on voting by the vast exaggerations comprised in project fear, which was engineered by the full force of Government, nothing is said.

DanWiley
DanWiley
24 October, 2019 07:50
What you refer to as project fear, for the most part, is happening. As we haven't left yet you can't say it won't and there's plenty to suggest it will.

On the other hand, the big red bus had an immediately identifiable lie written on it. If you were to ask someone to identify, say, 10 artefacts of the referendum, the big red bus would be on a very high proportion of people's lists. It was a big thing. I can't think of an element of project fear that would be so consistently memorable.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
24 October, 2019 08:07
Project fear: we could end up leaving without a deal and it would all go to pot. Reality: we could end up leaving without a deal and it could all go to pot.

It seems to me that one was a barefaced lie, the other just a pessimistic view of how it would / could end up.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
24 October, 2019 09:48
Quote:
DanWiley
What you refer to as project fear, for the most part, is happening. As we haven't left yet you can't say it won't and there's plenty to suggest it will.
On the other hand, the big red bus had an immediately identifiable lie written on it. If you were to ask someone to identify, say, 10 artefacts of the referendum, the big red bus would be on a very high proportion of people's lists. It was a big thing. I can't think of an element of project fear that would be so consistently memorable.

For the umpteenth time, the terrible forecasts of the UK economy tanking & extreme unemployment were for it to happen soon after the referendum not after we leave. That was completely wrong. I’m not at all sure it was just pessimism but even if it was it was massively misleading & would, I suggest, have had more effect than the admittedly stupid slogan on the bus.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
24 October, 2019 10:02
Quote:
Bath Hammer
So, assuming for one minute that you are in favour of leaving the EU. If you stay in those institutions what are the benefits of leaving? Surely it’s much the same as staying in or am I missing something?

So far, I have never heard any benefits of leaving, nothing tangible, beyond nebulous concepts of sovereignty, freedom, making our laws, making our own trade deals etc. There are never any specifics or justifications. I appreciate that if you are a fisherman, there could be a tangible benefit to your life, but like everything else its not black and white.

Staying in the SM and CU causes less damage, but we lose any say. So yes, its clearly worse than being in the EU.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
24 October, 2019 10:14
The big irony is that for extreme Brexiteers it is about 'taking back control' and returning it to the UK Parliament......





You know, the UK Parliament that extreme Brexiteers hate....... (Sm8)

MESSAGES->author
hemington
24 October, 2019 10:53
If we leave we can also increase our Carbon Footprint by gazillions moving our imports from all over the world by plane and ship. Very New Age thinking.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
24 October, 2019 11:06
On the debate about whether it was explicit that leaving meant leaving the CU and SM. Lots of people said lots of different things, most of them with no accountability or influence, it doesnt matter. The fact is it wasn't clear, the referendum question said:

Should the UK remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

I have never found out why it was so vague, does anyone know? I went to see Cameron at the Cheltenham lit fest and I was hoping to ask that question, but didn't get the chance. I got the book with the admission and havent had time to read it yet, so not sure if its in there.

Was it carelessness i.e. they thought remain would win, was it because it was advisory and paired with the lack of detail, it would mean that any government could interpret it how they wanted?

Before anyone mentions the leaflet, which could be construed as the most definitive guide to what Leave meant as the government of the day wrote it, there is no reference to the CU and the references to the single market mention reduced access to it.

I'm not making this as a remain vs leave argument, I'm just intrigued about the lack of forethought, if thats what it was. Although other posters have pointed out what people said, but I can't really remember this being a specific focus of discussion i.e. what would leave actually look like.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
24 October, 2019 11:16
I suspect most voted leave because of what left wingers don't want anyone to talk about and not the big red bus slogan.. immigration.

ade1865
Ade1865
24 October, 2019 11:28
I think you're right OB, for many at least. A lot of them probably had no experience of immigration either, just read about how 'bad' it was in the papers. I know someone who did just that.

DanWiley
DanWiley
24 October, 2019 11:56
"For the umpteenth time, the terrible forecasts of the UK economy tanking & extreme unemployment were for it to happen soon after the referendum not after we leave. "

Sure, a couple of prominent remain campaigners (stupidly in my opinion) said it would happen directly after the vote. But are you saying that you can right off it all as "project fear" just because it happens when we actually leave, and as a direct result of the vote, but not the day after the vote?

DanWiley
DanWiley
24 October, 2019 12:00
"I suspect most voted leave because of what left wingers don't want anyone to talk about and not the big red bus slogan.. immigration."

Any time a "left winger" mentions this they get "stop calling us racists" shouted at them. I agree the perception of immigration was a big part of it.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
24 October, 2019 13:04
The impression I got from many people, at the time of the referendum, was that they were disenchanted with the austerity regime, and wanted to 'get one back on Cameron'.

gaz59
gaz59
24 October, 2019 13:08
Quote:
OutsideBath
I suspect most voted leave because of what left wingers don't want anyone to talk about and not the big red bus slogan.. immigration.

Agree to a point which is that, as with most political issues, it was the perception of the issue that won the votes not the reality. And this is where the leave campaign architect, Cummings, was so effective in distilling a big issue into a memorable sound-bite backed up with strong visual image

With immigration it was about 'taking back control of our borders' underpinned with fake news of millions of immigrants flooding in from Turkey. 'Protect our jobs' and 'British jobs for British people' were two other highly populist slogans that played very strongly in many key constituencies

The Remain campaign was far less united and under Cameron's dozy complacent ineptitude far less effective in rebutting the fake claims.

The NHS funding slogan was just one more powerful, false slogan that was never challenged properly

Any challenge or alternative view was simply dismissed with yet another simple, effective sound-bite of 'project fear'

Very smart, very effective political electioneering

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
24 October, 2019 13:41
Quote:
OutsideBath
I suspect most voted leave because of what left wingers don't want anyone to talk about and not the big red bus slogan.. immigration.

Dare we be even more specific and say it was brown people and immigration?

The irony that we have had total control over non EU Immigration since day one. Nothing At all to do with the EU.

J

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
24 October, 2019 14:17
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Quote:
OutsideBath
I suspect most voted leave because of what left wingers don't want anyone to talk about and not the big red bus slogan.. immigration.

Dare we be even more specific and say it was brown people and immigration?

The irony that we have had total control over non EU Immigration since day one. Nothing At all to do with the EU.

J

Not so sure about it being colour specific, I suspect it was more the Eastern European variety. Also the never ending and growing number of illegals which ironically won't be fixed by leaving the EU and our government isn't trying to stop.

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
24 October, 2019 18:34
Boris is suggesting a Dec 12 election but its unclear whether the Lib Dems and Labour will go for it.

Anyone care to shed light as to why the opposition parties, who apparently hate this government with a passion, don't want an election to get rid of them at the earliest opportunity. Particularly now the Flextension appears to be in the bag.

John Tee
John Tee
24 October, 2019 18:37
immigration will be a huge issue in europe, as opposed to the e.u itself, simply because so many are trying to get here. Sooner or later the continent will have to make decisions they are putting off.

If you concede immigration is required do you set a limit, and if you do, what is it?
Is the u.k specifically able to take more..will it be 'forced' by a central policy to do so.
The simple fact is that the stream will be steady and persistent...
The U.k is a favoured destination because you will never be poor in thd u.k..or not by their definition of poor.
So, that issue is not going away, imv so no one can put a number to it.

Immigration, aside, political integration is not stopping.
Every treaty is deeper integration. The e.u army idea is an example.
Some people see no problem with increased immigration or deeper political union and integration but these are issues where you may of may not want to legislate yourself.

John Tee
John Tee
24 October, 2019 18:44
Quote:
Beergoggles
Boris is suggesting a Dec 12 election but its unclear whether the Lib Dems and Labour will go for it.
Anyone care to shed light as to why the opposition parties, who apparently hate this government with a passion, don't want an election to get rid of them at the earliest opportunity. Particularly now the Flextension appears to be in the bag.

Labour won't because the polls suggest a big loss.
Depending on the mechanism used, the numbers needed to allow one could be two thirds of mps. In that sense, labour will need to vote for it to get one.
If polls are correct, then upwards of 325 seats are predicted which means a one party majority...
Turkeys for xmas....??

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
24 October, 2019 19:19
All the opposition parties say they want a GE, but for the third time will vote against holding one. Are they really so dense that they think the elctorate can't see their hypocrisy?

On the immigration front, it is very difficult for a country the size of the UK to absorb a net gain of 300,000 pax pa year in year out. That's more than the population of say Bournemouth & Poole combined, each year. That has put a massive strain on infrastructure and services across the country - extra school places, doctor's surgery time, hospital beds etc can't just appear overnight, they take years to provide.

The other factor which the liberal elite won't admit, is the disenfranchisement that is felt by a large part of the population, those who have been left behind by globilisation and the increase in wealth, plus the rapid widening of the gap between normal people and the super rich, so there was a wish to give the establishment a bloody nose.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
24 October, 2019 20:31
Quote:
Dorset Boy
All the opposition parties say they want a GE, but for the third time will vote against holding one. Are they really so dense that they think the elctorate can't see their hypocrisy?
On the immigration front, it is very difficult for a country the size of the UK to absorb a net gain of 300,000 pax pa year in year out. That's more than the population of say Bournemouth & Poole combined, each year. That has put a massive strain on infrastructure and services across the country - extra school places, doctor's surgery time, hospital beds etc can't just appear overnight, they take years to provide.

The other factor which the liberal elite won't admit, is the disenfranchisement that is felt by a large part of the population, those who have been left behind by globilisation and the increase in wealth, plus the rapid widening of the gap between normal people and the super rich, so there was a wish to give the establishment a bloody nose.

What's the point of allowing election you are forecast to lose comfortably when you have the power to block it?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
24 October, 2019 20:43
Quote:
John Tee

Immigration, aside, political integration is not stopping.
Every treaty is deeper integration. The e.u army idea is an example.
Some people see no problem with increased immigration or deeper political union and integration but these are issues where you may of may not want to legislate yourself.

[stephenlegrice.com] Lisbon Treaty FAQs

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
24 October, 2019 20:50
Quote:
JoeTheFanatic
What's the point of allowing election you are forecast to lose comfortably when you have the power to block it?

Basically it leaves the country in limbo, politically paralysed and without a government that is able to make decisions on behalf of its people. Not really a sustainable position and doesn’t paint the opposition in a positive light.

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
24 October, 2019 20:56
Quote:
Beergoggles
Boris is suggesting a Dec 12 election but its unclear whether the Lib Dems and Labour will go for it.
Anyone care to shed light as to why the opposition parties, who apparently hate this government with a passion, don't want an election to get rid of them at the earliest opportunity. Particularly now the Flextension appears to be in the bag.

It’s quite simple. If Brexit isn’t “done” (BTW it won’t be done, buts that’s bye the bye), then the Tories will have the Brexit Party to contend with. Also the fact that Johnston never “got Brexit done”.

That might not seem like much, but IMO will be enough to give us another hung Parliament. With the Lib Dems making gains from their remain/peoples vote stance and the SNP wiping the ten Tory seats out in Scotland.

Letting Johnston dictate the agenda is not in the oppositions interest. Wait until 1st of November when he can “die in his ditch” then pull the trigger and call the vote of no confidence. It’s only a week away.

Now’s the time to hold their nerve.

J



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/10/2019 20:57 by ChippenhamRoman.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
24 October, 2019 21:57
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Letting Johnston dictate the agenda is not in the oppositions interest. Wait until 1st of November when he can “die in his ditch” then pull the trigger and call the vote of no confidence. It’s only a week away.


This would be strategic folly. The voters are wise enough to know a cynical manoeuvre and that will only endear them more to Boris' attempts rather than peel them off to the Brexit Party.

The Remainers are being way too tactical. Inertia will mean they will do ok whenever an election is called. But they are not framing their actions in a way that will resonate with voters - however clever they think they are. They might just turn a hung parliament into a Cons majority...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
24 October, 2019 22:00
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
JoeTheFanatic
What's the point of allowing election you are forecast to lose comfortably when you have the power to block it?
9
Basically it leaves the country in limbo, politically paralysed and without a government that is able to make decisions on behalf of its people. Not really a sustainable position and doesn’t paint the opposition in a positive light.

I'd argue it paints the Government in a poor light. The only way is to throw your toys out of the pram? How about negotiation and compromise as tools of statecraft?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
24 October, 2019 22:54
Just one poll, but this could be why.

Westminster voting intention...

if "the deadline for the UK to leave the EU has been extended beyond the 31st of October 2019":

LAB: 27%
CON: 26%
BREX: 20%
LDEM: 18%
GRN: 4%

via @ComRes, 16 - 17 Oct

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
25 October, 2019 07:29
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Just one poll, but this could be why.
Westminster voting intention...

if "the deadline for the UK to leave the EU has been extended beyond the 31st of October 2019":

LAB: 27%
CON: 26%
BREX: 20%
LDEM: 18%
GRN: 4%

via @ComRes, 16 - 17 Oct

The above tweet also gave this scenario as an alternative:

Westminster voting intention...

if "the UK has left the EU with a deal similar to the one negotiated by Theresa May":

CON: 32%
LAB: 27%
BREX: 15%
LDEM: 17%
GRN: 4%

via @ComRes, 16 - 17 Oct

Note both results were collected over a week ago. We await the poll after the vote for more time, pulling the WD bill, and GE motion!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 October, 2019 07:52
I don't know why the electorate would be bright enough to see through corbyns cynicism but not sharp enough to see through boris'.

As I've said, an election is coming, Boris has just gifted the when to the opposition, in doing so he also created the need for an election. They are taking advantage of that.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
25 October, 2019 09:24
Quote:
John Tee
The U.k is a favoured destination because you will never be poor in thd u.k..or not by their definition of poor.
With a combination of austerity + Brexit, the Tories are certainly fixing that particular 'problem'.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
25 October, 2019 12:47
Juncker sure not pulling his punches today in relation to the leave campaign...



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
25 October, 2019 13:18
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Just one poll, but this could be why.
Westminster voting intention...

if "the deadline for the UK to leave the EU has been extended beyond the 31st of October 2019":

LAB: 27%
CON: 26%
BREX: 20%
LDEM: 18%
GRN: 4%

via @ComRes, 16 - 17 Oct

Farage is many things but he certainly isn't stupid. he'll want enough MPs to keep the Tories honest but not at the risk of handing the reigns to Corbyn. If these numbers are forecast expect some tactical alignment and the hardest Brexit possible.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
25 October, 2019 16:29
Quote:
Beergoggles
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Just one poll, but this could be why.
Westminster voting intention...

if "the deadline for the UK to leave the EU has been extended beyond the 31st of October 2019":

LAB: 27%
CON: 26%
BREX: 20%
LDEM: 18%
GRN: 4%

via @ComRes, 16 - 17 Oct

Farage is many things but he certainly isn't stupid. he'll want enough MPs to keep the Tories honest but not at the risk of handing the reigns to Corbyn. If these numbers are forecast expect some tactical alignment and the hardest Brexit possible.

I don't see it happening. Having made a really big thing about putting up a candidate in every constituency, is Farage really going to stand 90% of them down, sacrificing most of his popular vote for a handful of seats?
The price of Farage's support is a 'No Deal' Brexit but now he has one, Johnson won't go for that. Even if he did, he'd mop up most of BP's votes anyway.
If Brexit actually happens, BP will rapidly follow UKIP into oblivion. Farage doesn't really want Brexit to happen with Johnson & definitely not with his deal. His fantasy is to destroy the Tories and then ride to power on the back of a populist wave at the head of a far right BP/Tory coalition.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
26 October, 2019 17:09
Tweet from John Rentoul of The Independent

Average of 5 polls from different cos, polling 10-25 Oct, incl today's YouGov:
Con 36%
Lab 24%
Lib Dem 18%
Brexit Party 11%
Green 4%
People will vote differently in an election, but these vote shares (Scotland separate) could produce Con majority 110 electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/userco…



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

JFPC
JFPC
26 October, 2019 21:17
Using Brexiteer logic:

Everyone knew what they were doing when they voted in the last general election, the 'fixed term parliament act' was already in place. To call an early general election would therefore be undemocratic and against THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!!! There can be no way anyone's changed their mind and an early election would only divide the country further.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

DanWiley
DanWiley
26 October, 2019 22:11
"People will vote differently in an election, but these vote shares (Scotland separate) could produce Con majority 110"

Really? If that's the case our system really is broken. 1/3rd of the population leads to a sizable majority. I know it's nothing new but Brexit had happened because people don't feel represented.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
26 October, 2019 23:00
Quote:
DanWiley
"People will vote differently in an election, but these vote shares (Scotland separate) could produce Con majority 110"
Really? If that's the case our system really is broken. 1/3rd of the population leads to a sizable majority. I know it's nothing new but Brexit had happened because people don't feel represented.

Yes really! [www.electoral-reform.org.uk]



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

DanWiley
DanWiley
26 October, 2019 23:18
I want really doubting it. Just lamenting that is a bit ridiculous.

I guess we'll see what actually happens, I've got my doubts about the current set of polls.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
28 October, 2019 10:08
SO we had an election in 2015, 2017 and now 2019, i can only assume it's the 2 year parliament act.

DanWiley
DanWiley
28 October, 2019 13:37
Well, at least it gives people a chance to change their minds.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
28 October, 2019 17:01
Quote:
DanWiley
Well, at least it gives people a chance to change their minds.

What!? Change their minds!
Death of democracy!
Betrayal!
17.4M people!
The will of the!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
28 October, 2019 17:22
Quote:
Woodpecker
SO we had an election in 2015, 2017 and now 2019, i can only assume it's the 2 year parliament act.

Do we need as long as 2 years to find out that there are 650+ clowns in parliament conveniently ignoring their party manifesto?

DanWiley
DanWiley
28 October, 2019 18:05
One way or the other you're about to vote one of those clowns back into power.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
28 October, 2019 18:34
Quote:
DanWiley
One way or the other you're about to vote one of those clowns back into power.

I'm actually leaning towards not bothering to vote for any of the clowns as none of them can be trusted to do what they promise. Clearly this would mean that I can't really complain about what the next government does, but hey ho.

Only saving grace for me is they can't knock on my door and blatantly lie to my face about how they're going to be good for me.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
28 October, 2019 19:09
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
One way or the other you're about to vote one of those clowns back into power.

I'm actually leaning towards not bothering to vote for any of the clowns as none of them can be trusted to do what they promise. Clearly this would mean that I can't really complain about what the next government does, but hey ho.

Only saving grace for me is they can't knock on my door and blatantly lie to my face about how they're going to be good for me.

You live in a hot air balloon?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
28 October, 2019 20:32
How come it's OK to (possibly) be given the opportunity to change your mind three times in 4 years, but it's blasphemy to suggest you might have changed your mind in the last 3 years?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
29 October, 2019 06:51
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
DanWiley
One way or the other you're about to vote one of those clowns back into power.

I'm actually leaning towards not bothering to vote for any of the clowns as none of them can be trusted to do what they promise. Clearly this would mean that I can't really complain about what the next government does, but hey ho.

Only saving grace for me is they can't knock on my door and blatantly lie to my face about how they're going to be good for me.

You are Karl Stromberg and I claim my £5



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/10/2019 06:51 by BathMatt53.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
29 October, 2019 11:18
Sounds like Corbyn has changed his mind from yesterday. Yesterday late afternoon he said no, but yeah, but no to a GE. Today he seems to be saying yes to a December GE.

Watched some of the debate yesterday, and interestingly the only one who spoke sensibly was John Redwood. Corbyn ranted, and Blackford just rambled on and on (and was told to shut up by quite a few MPs who recognised him for rambling)..

DanWiley
DanWiley
29 October, 2019 17:22
I guess it depends on your perspective.

Mind you, I really can't see why anyone would object to the "let's have a confirmation referendum and an election at a sensible time of year" amendment. Unless, of course, you want to play you're own political game and damage the country in the process.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
29 October, 2019 21:02
12 December GE it is then.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
29 October, 2019 23:26
And I've just got my postal proxy vote sorted out - hooray! And now there's going to be a postal strike! - boo!

You really couldn't make it up sad smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
30 October, 2019 17:27
I guess all the remainers have no choice but to vote Lib Dem if staying in the EU matters that much to them?

Tories are Brexit and Labour/Momentum have no real position on Leave/Remain and are basically loonatics anyway.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
30 October, 2019 22:26
Not all Tories are Brexit - very simplistic analysis.

n.b. note the number of excellent Tory MP's who have thrown in the towel in the past month. Many of them women who are fed up/sick to death/worn down by relentless mysoginistic social media/e-mail abuse/postal abusive messages. Just the short of younger women we need to make Parliament truly representative.

DanWiley
DanWiley
30 October, 2019 23:24
I think labour voters know they'll get a referendum if they get in, coalition or otherwise. How that effects people I think will depend on geography. In London and places like bath it won't make any difference. If they don't want brexit they'll vote labour or LD based on their usual thought patterns: no brexit or referendum probably equally good.

Places like Manchester and Birmingham they'll just vote labour I suspect.

North East, going to be interesting. Who what do labour voters vote for? Brexit party, in the past they've just not fine for it. They've lost a fair bit up there already, perhaps feeling a little less brexity. I can't see them voting Tory. At the end of the day the worst case they might get a chance to "tell them again".

John Tee
John Tee
31 October, 2019 09:51
Quote:
OutsideBath
I guess all the remainers have no choice but to vote Lib Dem if staying in the EU matters that much to them?
Tories are Brexit and Labour/Momentum have no real position on Leave/Remain and are basically loonatics anyway.

I think Lib Dems will consolidate votes but not much real consequence. Needs the election to be centred on Brexit, to do so.

Jonhson also needs it to be on Brexit and if it is, the king makers could be the Brexit party who could take labour leave towns.

Corbyn needs anything but Brexit otherwise could lose quite big.

If the king maker is indeed Farage and the Brexit party what price would they extract?

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
31 October, 2019 09:56
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.

No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell. Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 1970s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Labour supporters.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

MESSAGES->author
hemington
31 October, 2019 10:05
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
31 October, 2019 10:16
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
31 October, 2019 10:37
One prediction is that the elephant in the room won't be mentioned - the fact that the NHS is the 5th largest employer in the world.
What we will hear from the left is that there aren't enough doctors, nurses or enough money being thrown at the black hole.
So, if there aren't enough front line staff, why are there so many backroom staff?- way, way more than in any other health service.

WestonLurker
WestonLurker
31 October, 2019 11:07
Quote:
Dorset Boy
One prediction is that the elephant in the room won't be mentioned - the fact that the NHS is the 5th largest employer in the world.
What we will hear from the left is that there aren't enough doctors, nurses or enough money being thrown at the black hole.
So, if there aren't enough front line staff, why are there so many backroom staff?- way, way more than in any other health service.

Paging Gaz...

Barnoid
Barnoid
31 October, 2019 14:46
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

A phrase some of you may wish to acquaint yourselves with is, "Ok Boomer".

JFPC
JFPC
31 October, 2019 15:39
It makes me chuckle hearing brexiteers say (with a straight face) that voting Labour would be bad for the economy. Irony is clearly lost on some people.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 October, 2019 15:58
"Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 1970s"

Sure, but young includes everyone up to the age of about 60 and many people would consider anyone who votes Tory as gullible. In any case, plenty have voted for left wing labour governments in those 50 years.

I don't think you can call this election. There's so many things that could take it in any direction. Just imagine it happens over a cold snap and those over 60s don't turn out. But I do wonder if brexit really is the vote winner people think. Historically, the brexit/UKIP vote just hasn't turned out in GEs and polls aren't suggesting that they are going to be THAT influential.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
31 October, 2019 16:00
Quote:
JFPC
It makes me chuckle hearing brexiteers say (with a straight face) that voting Labour would be bad for the economy. Irony is clearly lost on some people.

JPFC - who are you accusing of being a Brexiteer?
For many the voting decision will be difficult - the moronic policies of the left vs a (potentially) damaging Brexit that they don't want.... or a Lib Dem vote or abstain?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
31 October, 2019 16:56
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

I am.curious. in what way was austerity caused by Brown?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
31 October, 2019 17:12
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

I am.curious. in what way was austerity caused by Brown?

His financial policies left the country pretty much bankrupt, which is basically what Labour governments do. The coalition had little choice but to impose austerity measures to try and get us close to a reasonable financial position.

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 October, 2019 17:14
Wow, not just country, the Western world. He did do well.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
31 October, 2019 17:35
Quote:
Barnoid
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

A phrase some of you may wish to acquaint yourselves with is, "Ok Boomer".

OK I've read the article explaining about a meaningless statement being made by some youngsters and am now fully acquainted with it. Not sure it changes anything though.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
31 October, 2019 18:06
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

I am.curious. in what way was austerity caused by Brown?

His financial policies left the country pretty much bankrupt, which is basically what Labour governments do. The coalition had little choice but to impose austerity measures to try and get us close to a reasonable financial position.

Not a generally held view...

[theconversation.com]

[www.economicshelp.org]

[fullfact.org]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 31/10/2019 18:09 by joethefanatic.

Barnoid
Barnoid
31 October, 2019 18:19
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OutsideBath
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Barnoid
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OutsideBath
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hemington
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Dorset Boy
Not sure you've read that right Dan, particularly re the Labour Brexit seats. Think those are where the Brexit Party will really challenge.
No one who has an ounce of understanding of sensible economic policies will should vote for Corbyn & McDonnell.

It will be interesting to see what the one nation / remainer Tory voters do. Plenty don't like Boris, but clearly wouldn't be so stupid as to vote for Corbyn. What are the current (non-Brexit related) policies of the Lib Dems like? Are they 'sensible enough' to attract the disenfranchised Tory?

Be interesting to see how history judges these last 10 years of austerity. In 40 years time someone like you could be writing. 'Only the young and gullible who don't recall the disaster of the 2010s will vote for them, plus the die hard lifelong Conservative supporters.'

Austerity was caused by Brown and the economically stupid pairing of Corbyn/McDonnell will just make things worse. I guess those who don't bother to work and the young might vote for them though.

Either way Brexit is likely to dominate the GE and with Boris committed to his Brexit deal ardent remaining Tories are going to have to suck up the high taxing policies of the Lib Dems and vote for them if they really believe in EU membership.

A phrase some of you may wish to acquaint yourselves with is, "Ok Boomer".

OK I've read the article explaining about a meaningless statement being made by some youngsters and am now fully acquainted with it. Not sure it changes anything though.

I suppose the point is that young people feel that a good number of older people not only had significant advantages when they were their age, but that they continue to enjoy advantages and privileges even now. Evidently they're also becoming increasingly frustrated about that perceived on-going unfairness.

That probably explains why many of them are attracted to the idea of voting for Labour. Whether that's a short-sighted vote that would cause longer term issues in the wider economy is frankly moot to them. As things are, they feel they're screwed: why wouldn't they vote for something different?

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
31 October, 2019 19:01
Twas ever thus. When young you tend to be more of an idealist, and your life is full of hope and dreams. Gradually some realism appears as you gain experience of life as an adult.

Life has never been easy, and you have to make things happen. Was it any easier for people in the 1950s or 60s or 70s to buy a home? They had to save for everything and only buy things when they had saved, not buy first, pay later as is the norm now.

I'm not suggesting it is at all easy for many people in their 20s and 30s now. It wasn't easy when I was a 20 something either (16% mortgage rates anyone?). We start at the bottom and have to try to work our way up.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
31 October, 2019 19:26
“If a person is not a liberal when he is twenty, he has no heart; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, he has no head."

John Adams



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
31 October, 2019 19:37
I guess you're right Barnoid, the young probably are stupid enough to vote Labour/Momentum given that Corbyn has the politics of a 15 year old.

They are at an age where they want the material things without wanting to work for it.

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