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Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
I am amused by the above comments as in Parliament when Brown introduced his desperately needed policies to shore up the financial system he stood at the Dispatch Box and said he was going to introduce policies to save the world..........very quickly corrected of course.
Personally I have no doubt that Blair/Brown allowed our country to get to a place where we were very weak and vulnerable. Mind you of course Blair had skedaddled before the excrement hit the fan.
As compared to other European countries, again one of our many differences, financial services are a much larger part of our economy and therefore when they face a downturn it hurts us badly.
You will I am sure recall Brown saying that he had ended "Boom and Bust".
When Labour took over in a landslide in 1997, well after 18 years of one government and confronted by the wiles and cunning of Blair and Campbell dear old Major stood no chance, the economy had been transformed to rood health.
Indeed by 2002, when Brown was having an open love affair with "Prudence" the economy was very strong. Then as Blair did foreign and Brown did domestic he seemed to go bonkers and leave his Calvinistic Scottish careful background behind and proceeded to spend our money with gay abandon.
Of course the rising tax receipts from the the Financial Services side of the economy were very helpful and you will all recall 125% mortgages etc, etc. Just as the economy needed to be cooled down in say 2004/5 it was being boosted.
The rest is an unpleasant history.
Austerity is interesting as of course it implies cutting back and reducing. Whereas of course in the period from 2010, even though taxes have gone up public spending has not gone down.........
Just saying
Labours answer was to borrow even more money to reflate the economy which is a view.......
Quote:joethefanatic
Perhaps we should stop them voting until they're old enough to know better?
Quote:Clarkey3k
In my lifetime it seems that all Labour governments end up with financial problems;
Harold Wilson devalued the pound in the 60's
Dennis Healy [Chancellor] seeking a loan from the IMF in the 70's
There was "no money left" in 2010 - cue austerity...
G Brown followed K Clarke's spending plans between 1997-2000, when he earned his reputation for prudence; he turned the public spending taps on in the decade thereafter. His tax changes were also responsible for the collapse of many final salary occupational pension schemes...
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Clarkey3k
In my lifetime it seems that all Labour governments end up with financial problems;
Harold Wilson devalued the pound in the 60's
Dennis Healy [Chancellor] seeking a loan from the IMF in the 70's
There was "no money left" in 2010 - cue austerity...
G Brown followed K Clarke's spending plans between 1997-2000, when he earned his reputation for prudence; he turned the public spending taps on in the decade thereafter. His tax changes were also responsible for the collapse of many final salary occupational pension schemes...
What Brown did to final salary pension schemes was unforgivable, although Osborne didn't do much better with his lifetime pension savings changes. The noises coming out of Corbyn's camp in relation to tax though are pretty scary for anyone who has worked hard and made something of themselves.
Quote:joethefanatic
“If a person is not a liberal when he is twenty, he has no heart; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, he has no head."
John Adams
Quote:Bathovalballer
Certainly, another referendum is not going to solve anything, nor giving the Scots independence. Possibly the Scots can have independence, if like we are with Brexit, they pay a penalty to leave the UK, ie their share of the National Debt as they have been net receivers of funds from the rest of the country for years. That would keep the unelected Mrs Sturgeon busy in finding those funds.
Quote:Bathovalballer
This is the first time I have entered this thread.
As put very eloquently by a young man on Question Time last night, ALL politicians of the major three parties have totally gone against what was included in their manifestos at the last election. They all promised to implement the will of the majority of the people, to implement Brexit as expected in a democratic society. Many MP's from all sides (and Mr Speaker in my view) have done their level best to delay,change and overlook that commitment. This has exacerbated the trust of the electorate in ALL politicians and hopefully will focus their minds in the coming 5/6 weeks.
Certainly, another referendum is not going to solve anything, nor giving the Scots independence. Possibly the Scots can have independence, if like we are with Brexit, they pay a penalty to leave the UK, ie their share of the National Debt as they have been net receivers of funds from the rest of the country for years. That would keep the unelected Mrs Sturgeon busy in finding those funds.
Also, the election has to address many other pressing reforms and improvements in our society if we are to move forward in an orderly and reasonable many for the benefit of the electorate.
Please lets hope we can return to reasoned and consensual government.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m
National Debt £1,820bn
Scotland's share £142bn
Simples and off they go!
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Woodpecker do you ever sit back and reflect, and after this reflection are you still always 100% certain that your view is completely correct?
Quote:Woodpecker
Excellent move Nigel, fantastic! Split the brexit vote.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m
National Debt £1,820bn
Scotland's share £142bn
Simples and off they go!
They owe a lot more than that BSJ:
Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m
National Debt £1,820bn
Scotland's share £142bn
Simples and off they go!
They owe a lot more than that BSJ:
Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.
Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m
National Debt £1,820bn
Scotland's share £142bn
Simples and off they go!
They owe a lot more than that BSJ:
Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.
Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?
The EU turns a blind eye whenever it's suits them. They are nothing if not masters of realpolitik. I imagine that Scotland would be major recipients of EU funds once they join.
Quote:joethefanatic
The EU turns a blind eye whenever it's suits them. They are nothing if not masters of realpolitik. I imagine that Scotland would be major recipients of EU funds once they join.
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m
National Debt £1,820bn
Scotland's share £142bn
Simples and off they go!
They owe a lot more than that BSJ:
Scotland’s notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK’s total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland’s figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.
Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Conservative and Unionist[u][/u] Party
Quote:DanWiley
If we brexit we've given the SNP a slam dunk referendum fuor leaving at some point. The economic arguements are irrelevant, just as they for Brexit.
It wouldn't be that interesting whether Southern Ireland want the North, take Dublin out and ni and eire are pretty similar economy wise. Culturally they'll go for it and bojo has gifted them stronger cultural links.
Don't kid yourself, brexit is pretty likely to lead to the end of Great Britain and the UK. Well done guys.
Quote:DanWiley
"The devolution policies of the Blair government have led to the stresses on the union with Scotland"
Nope. You've got that @#$%& about face, the stresses were there hence the devolution. Do you really think there wasn't a significant proportion of Scots who wanted more independence until Blair came along and suddenly it was a thing? Your grasp of ALL of English-Scottish history is non existent if you think that that's the case.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m
National Debt £1,820bn
Scotland's share £142bn
Simples and off they go!
Quote:DanWiley
Without brexit Scottish independence would have gone away for decades, until something fundamentally changed. It might well have even become an irrelevance.
Quote:The BearQuote:DanWiley
"The devolution policies of the Blair government have led to the stresses on the union with Scotland"
Nope. You've got that @#$%& about face, the stresses were there hence the devolution. Do you really think there wasn't a significant proportion of Scots who wanted more independence until Blair came along and suddenly it was a thing? Your grasp of ALL of English-Scottish history is non existent if you think that that's the case.
It is true there has always been a sense of Scottish nationalism.
But it is equally true that devolution has strengthened the SNP and, therefore, it's cause. (It is also true that Labour thought that devolution would secure their place in Scotland).
It has shown Scotland that it can behave independently and have control of (some of) it's affairs. If devolution, with a government and separate policies, why not independence? If you can have your government in Scotland and then get a different government in England why not limit the franchise?
Noone can read the minds of a Scottish voter. There is a historical aspect to their decision making. There is equally a very present, more prominent, political aspect. An understanding of all UK history isn't necessary to see the successes of the SNP under devolution.
Quote:JFPC
Spain and Catalonia are showing the other way of dealing with things!
Quote:DanWiley
"Scotland's share £142bn"
You'd break up the UK for £142bn! That's not much more than the yearly NHS budget.
"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."
What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.
I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.
Neither of those things would be true without brexit.
Quote:DanWiley
"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."
What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.
I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.
Neither of those things would be true without brexit.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:DanWiley
"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."
What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.
I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.
Neither of those things would be true without brexit.
No, I'm pretty certain that Scotland will go for independence, I clearly stated that above.
What I'm saying is that would have happened with or without Brexit. You are blaming Brexit for things that are unrelated. Scotland has always wanted to be its own master, check history.
Quote:The BearQuote:JFPC
Spain and Catalonia are showing the other way of dealing with things!
Eh? Catalan has been granted autonomous status with it's own (limited) government.
Who do you think declared independence exactly? Did increased autonomy and its own political structure help prevent that?
Quote:shipwrecked
No, I'm pretty certain that Scotland will go for independence, I clearly stated that above.
What I'm saying is that would have happened with or without Brexit. You are blaming Brexit for things that are unrelated.
Quote:DanWiley
Careful now. You're trying to be rational about how people vote in a referendum. We're living through proof that isn't the case.
Quote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
Quote:BBandWQuote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Woodpecker
Excellent move Nigel, fantastic! Split the brexit vote.
Always thought Farage was a bit dim, he's proved it by deliberately splitting the Brexit vote.
Quote:malcoQuote:BBandWQuote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?
It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) “the same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about you”.
I didn’t believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, he’s absolutely right!
I don’t know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For God’s sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, I’m sad for you.
Quote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
Quote:The BearQuote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
I can bet that sentiment comes directly from a load more people than that guy.
Remain sneering is the biggest tactical, as well as strategic, error. It's not just turning off floating voters in this country, it's turning Europe off as well.
It's a never an electorally sound strategy to make oneself feel better at the expense of the wider populace. Yet time and time again, Remain can't help themselves...
Quote:malcoQuote:BBandWQuote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?
It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) “the same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about you”.
I didn’t believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, he’s absolutely right!
I don’t know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For God’s sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, I’m sad for you.
Quote:BBandWQuote:malcoQuote:BBandWQuote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?
It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) “the same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about you”.
I didn’t believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, he’s absolutely right!
I don’t know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For God’s sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, I’m sad for you.
A bit over the top Malco ? Anyway, I feel sure you said something in the past about never visiting this forum again, dead in a ditch, no ifs, buts or maybe's - perhaps I have you confused.
What are you up to these days - still a climate change denialist and driving gas guzzlers or are you a born again Greta Thunberg disciple ? Do tell.
Quote:malcoQuote:BBandWQuote:DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.
I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?
It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) “the same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about you”.
I didn’t believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, he’s absolutely right!
I don’t know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For God’s sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, I’m sad for you.
Quote:ChippenhamRoman
I’d like to think that Scotland not contributing to a swashbuckling Defence budget, Son of Trident, Cross Rail, HS2 and the other South East infrastructure projects will help any perceived deficit.
Combined with a rebalancing of what actually is part of Scotland’s exports and is currently counted as a U.K. export (think Scottish whiskey departing from Dover).
Oil is a bonus, but new tech, renewables are the future. Perhaps with some sort of investment incentives to Multinationals who want English speaking access to the EU (when Scotland rejoin).
Most importantly it’s the ability to make decisions in Scotland for Scotland. (BREXIT being a case point).
I get a bit tired of Scotland being run down.
J
Quote:gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance
Quote:The BearQuote:gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance
Do you even know what an exit summary declaration (the 'checks' in question is)? Do you know what its purpose is, what information it requires? Because most people don't, including our politicians and our media.
The reality is until the end of transition we won't know what forms, if any, are required. The likelihood, unless there is a complete breakdown of trust like a no deal, is that there won't be any additional documentary requirements. They add a burden to ROI and they would be a nightmare to legally enforce when NI is legally (of not practically) outside the Customs Union. This should be resolved politically - of course, in these polarised times...
Quote:The BearQuote:gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance
Do you even know what an exit summary declaration (the 'checks' in question is)? Do you know what its purpose is, what information it requires? Because most people don't, including our politicians and our media.
...
Quote:gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance
Quote:gaz59
Nope but the political writers I respect all seem to say that more checks will be required not fewer which does seem to make sense if stuff and people have to cross borders that have different regulations. How else do you avoid smuggling, for example?
Quote:gaz59
So for Johnson to say "just chuck them in the bin" would seem to me to be either ignorant of the detail of his own agreement if you accept the above or more likely he does know but wants enough people to believe otherwise for long enough to get the keys to no 10 for another term.
Quote:gaz59
Given the way that key reports like the Arcuri and Russian involvement in the referendum cases are being kicked down the road until after the election I'm strongly suspecting there is a theme emerging in the Johnson GE playbook
Quote:CoochieCoo
Arcuri report decision
Quote:BBandW
Your dismissive and arrogant style of posting is so similar to that of dear old Malco (whose "friend" monitors this site) I cannot help wondering if you are not one of the same. For the avoidance of doubt, perhaps you could confirm.
Quote:annie blackthorn
I know this is stating the obvious, but I wouldn't believe a word of any statement cobbled together by Johnson and Farage. Bet Farage knows where the cupboard with the skeletons is to be found. Although I do believe that they are both very clever politicians who know how to manipulate their voter base. I know one current local MP who will be extremely grateful that the Brexit candidate is withdrawing from the fight. Hundreds of probable Brexit voters have joined the Conservative Party over the past year.
Quote:John Tee
They are all at it... Lib dems, Greens, Brexity party, Tories.
I dont see the difference
Quote:John Tee
They are all at it... Lib dems, Greens, Brexity party, Tories.
I dont see the difference
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
I think it is a question of getting most of what you want rather than the Brexit Party idea of perfection.
Just as Stephen Kinnock, and apparently some other Labour MP's, wished they had voted for TM's deal. Her deal was a very soft Brexit, Johnson's is a harder Brexit.
The choice is going for the Liberal/Green/SNP/Plaid Cymru pact and therefore revoking Article 50 or voting for Labour and not having a clue where you end up or voting Conservative and getting the current deal that has been agreed by the EU. Looking at the odds it was a pretty pragmatic and sensible decision by Farage and Tice.
Whatever you and I think of him he has been one of the most influential politicians in the past 10 years.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Martin Baxter's Electoral Calculus has, in my view, an absurd majority of 114 for the Conservatives.
If it is anything like true the results will feature howls from the Liberals who are forecast to get more than half the votes of Labour but just one ninth of the seats!
Mind you SNP are forecast to get about one fifth of the Liberal vote and are forecast to get more than double the seats!
Quote:jayeatman
Clearly a behind the scenes deal has been done. At a level where both can deny it though. The irony of Farage putting any weight at all on what Mr 'Dead-in-a-ditch' says, let alone a couple of vague statements about the eventual trade deal and no extension of the transition period. As a fig leaf for an about face of such massive proportions, this one is postage stamp sized.