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MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
31 October, 2019 19:47
Perhaps we should stop them voting until they're old enough to know better?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
31 October, 2019 19:49
I am amused by the above comments as in Parliament when Brown introduced his desperately needed policies to shore up the financial system he stood at the Dispatch Box and said he was going to introduce policies to save the world..........very quickly corrected of course.

Personally I have no doubt that Blair/Brown allowed our country to get to a place where we were very weak and vulnerable. Mind you of course Blair had skedaddled before the excrement hit the fan.

As compared to other European countries, again one of our many differences, financial services are a much larger part of our economy and therefore when they face a downturn it hurts us badly.

You will I am sure recall Brown saying that he had ended "Boom and Bust".

When Labour took over in a landslide in 1997, well after 18 years of one government and confronted by the wiles and cunning of Blair and Campbell dear old Major stood no chance, the economy had been transformed to rood health.

Indeed by 2002, when Brown was having an open love affair with "Prudence" the economy was very strong. Then as Blair did foreign and Brown did domestic he seemed to go bonkers and leave his Calvinistic Scottish careful background behind and proceeded to spend our money with gay abandon.

Of course the rising tax receipts from the the Financial Services side of the economy were very helpful and you will all recall 125% mortgages etc, etc. Just as the economy needed to be cooled down in say 2004/5 it was being boosted.

The rest is an unpleasant history.

Austerity is interesting as of course it implies cutting back and reducing. Whereas of course in the period from 2010, even though taxes have gone up public spending has not gone down.........

Just saying

Labours answer was to borrow even more money to reflate the economy which is a view.......

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
31 October, 2019 20:38
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
I am amused by the above comments as in Parliament when Brown introduced his desperately needed policies to shore up the financial system he stood at the Dispatch Box and said he was going to introduce policies to save the world..........very quickly corrected of course.
Personally I have no doubt that Blair/Brown allowed our country to get to a place where we were very weak and vulnerable. Mind you of course Blair had skedaddled before the excrement hit the fan.

As compared to other European countries, again one of our many differences, financial services are a much larger part of our economy and therefore when they face a downturn it hurts us badly.

You will I am sure recall Brown saying that he had ended "Boom and Bust".

When Labour took over in a landslide in 1997, well after 18 years of one government and confronted by the wiles and cunning of Blair and Campbell dear old Major stood no chance, the economy had been transformed to rood health.

Indeed by 2002, when Brown was having an open love affair with "Prudence" the economy was very strong. Then as Blair did foreign and Brown did domestic he seemed to go bonkers and leave his Calvinistic Scottish careful background behind and proceeded to spend our money with gay abandon.

Of course the rising tax receipts from the the Financial Services side of the economy were very helpful and you will all recall 125% mortgages etc, etc. Just as the economy needed to be cooled down in say 2004/5 it was being boosted.

The rest is an unpleasant history.

Austerity is interesting as of course it implies cutting back and reducing. Whereas of course in the period from 2010, even though taxes have gone up public spending has not gone down.........

Just saying

Labours answer was to borrow even more money to reflate the economy which is a view.......

On this BSJ we are in agreement. The Labour Party makes a big hue and cry of NHS privatisation, the biggest privatisation under their tenure was through Andy Burnham in his prolific PFI schemes which the NHS are still lumbered with. I have heard stories of extortionate amounts paid for changing light bulbs.

Of course John Major mooted the idea of PFIs but Labour latched on it and awarded uneconomic contracts to all and sundry.

They werenít responsible for the financial crash but my goodness they were irresponsible in their prolific spending which prompted Liam Byrne and his infamous note ďSorry there is no money leftĒ



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
31 October, 2019 20:39
Did you actually read the links to Joethefanatic's post, BSJ?

[theconversation.com]

[www.economicshelp.org]

[fullfact.org]

Would you have preferred that the Labour Government had let all the banks fail?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/10/2019 20:40 by Mike the Taxi.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
01 November, 2019 00:10
I did Mike and absolutely agree that Gordon Brown/Labour were not responsible for the 2008 recession which then led to the credit crunch.

However GB got carried away by his own hubris, "Ihave ended boom and bust"!

Labour/Gordon Brown had to refinance the banking system as we will discover in 20 years time that we were probably weeks away from all confidence being lost in money.

The economy was growing strongly in 2003/4 and that was the time to gently tap the brakes.

However because the responsibility for the banking system had been taken from the BOE and shared between BOE, Treasury and FCA. Then responsibility fell between several stools. This was one of the reasons that the refinancing of Northern Rock became public knowledge...

Allowing 125% mortgages is a route to excess and madness. The banking system needed to be reigned back.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
01 November, 2019 07:35
In my lifetime it seems that all Labour governments end up with financial problems;

Harold Wilson devalued the pound in the 60's
Dennis Healy [Chancellor] seeking a loan from the IMF in the 70's
There was "no money left" in 2010 - cue austerity...

G Brown followed K Clarke's spending plans between 1997-2000, when he earned his reputation for prudence; he turned the public spending taps on in the decade thereafter. His tax changes were also responsible for the collapse of many final salary occupational pension schemes...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

John Tee
John Tee
01 November, 2019 07:44
Quote:
joethefanatic
Perhaps we should stop them voting until they're old enough to know better?

All joking aside, when i listen to the younger guys in the office, it is depressing how they come up with which way to vote.
Even the more sensible ones have no real understanding at all ...and i mean, at all.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 November, 2019 07:50
Doesnít sound very different from the older ones tbh. My father still wonít vote labour because of the tax in the 1970s. I would guess that very few people in the country have a full understanding of what they are voting for.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
01 November, 2019 09:10
Quote:
Clarkey3k
In my lifetime it seems that all Labour governments end up with financial problems;
Harold Wilson devalued the pound in the 60's
Dennis Healy [Chancellor] seeking a loan from the IMF in the 70's
There was "no money left" in 2010 - cue austerity...

G Brown followed K Clarke's spending plans between 1997-2000, when he earned his reputation for prudence; he turned the public spending taps on in the decade thereafter. His tax changes were also responsible for the collapse of many final salary occupational pension schemes...

What Brown did to final salary pension schemes was unforgivable, although Osborne didn't do much better with his lifetime pension savings changes. The noises coming out of Corbyn's camp in relation to tax though are pretty scary for anyone who has worked hard and made something of themselves.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
01 November, 2019 09:29
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Clarkey3k
In my lifetime it seems that all Labour governments end up with financial problems;
Harold Wilson devalued the pound in the 60's
Dennis Healy [Chancellor] seeking a loan from the IMF in the 70's
There was "no money left" in 2010 - cue austerity...

G Brown followed K Clarke's spending plans between 1997-2000, when he earned his reputation for prudence; he turned the public spending taps on in the decade thereafter. His tax changes were also responsible for the collapse of many final salary occupational pension schemes...

What Brown did to final salary pension schemes was unforgivable, although Osborne didn't do much better with his lifetime pension savings changes. The noises coming out of Corbyn's camp in relation to tax though are pretty scary for anyone who has worked hard and made something of themselves.

Brown didn't just hit the final salary pensions, he hammered private pensions too with his dividend tax, creating a savings gap in one fell swoop.
Then there was selling the gold reserves at the bottom of the market.
His lower rate income tax fiasco...

Osborne's freedoms and improved death benefits are a really positive move, for the sensible. however i totally agree, you either cap annual contributions or the lifetime pot size, but not both.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
01 November, 2019 10:08
Possibly the only good thing Cameron/Osborne did was carry out the confidence trick to the outside world capital markets that they were being tough on Government spending, imposing "austerity" and getting the deficit under control and generally being conservative when the reality was, as Mike the Taxi's links show the level of borrowing rose more under conservatives than under labour!

When you consider the scale of borrowing that actually occurred if we had been perceived to be a Greece, Spain, Italy or Portugal (in ratio terms not so far from the mark) we would really have had to have some austerity. As was imposed on Greece and Portugal by the ECB.

I am aware that total debt as a %'age of GDP has declined to a more manageable level but in an era of low inflation this debt level needs to continue to be controlled. The reason I mention inflation here is that in the past inflation has literally reduced the value of the debt but it really does not look like that is going to happen this time.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
01 November, 2019 10:18
Quote:
joethefanatic
ďIf a person is not a liberal when he is twenty, he has no heart; if he is not a conservative when he is forty, he has no head."
John Adams

Yes but that was before brexit was invented, now voting conservative suggests you have no brain

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
01 November, 2019 12:35
This is the first time I have entered this thread.

As put very eloquently by a young man on Question Time last night, ALL politicians of the major three parties have totally gone against what was included in their manifestos at the last election. They all promised to implement the will of the majority of the people, to implement Brexit as expected in a democratic society. Many MP's from all sides (and Mr Speaker in my view) have done their level best to delay,change and overlook that commitment. This has exacerbated the trust of the electorate in ALL politicians and hopefully will focus their minds in the coming 5/6 weeks.

Certainly, another referendum is not going to solve anything, nor giving the Scots independence. Possibly the Scots can have independence, if like we are with Brexit, they pay a penalty to leave the UK, ie their share of the National Debt as they have been net receivers of funds from the rest of the country for years. That would keep the unelected Mrs Sturgeon busy in finding those funds.

Also, the election has to address many other pressing reforms and improvements in our society if we are to move forward in an orderly and reasonable many for the benefit of the electorate.

Please lets hope we can return to reasoned and consensual government.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 November, 2019 12:39
Quote:
Bathovalballer

Certainly, another referendum is not going to solve anything, nor giving the Scots independence. Possibly the Scots can have independence, if like we are with Brexit, they pay a penalty to leave the UK, ie their share of the National Debt as they have been net receivers of funds from the rest of the country for years. That would keep the unelected Mrs Sturgeon busy in finding those funds.


[www.theguardian.com]

In relation to your point regarding Ewels...oh, hold on...



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

jameswood14
Woodpecker
01 November, 2019 13:09
Excellent move Nigel, fantastic! Split the brexit vote.

John Tee
John Tee
01 November, 2019 13:25
Quote:
Bathovalballer
This is the first time I have entered this thread.
As put very eloquently by a young man on Question Time last night, ALL politicians of the major three parties have totally gone against what was included in their manifestos at the last election. They all promised to implement the will of the majority of the people, to implement Brexit as expected in a democratic society. Many MP's from all sides (and Mr Speaker in my view) have done their level best to delay,change and overlook that commitment. This has exacerbated the trust of the electorate in ALL politicians and hopefully will focus their minds in the coming 5/6 weeks.

Certainly, another referendum is not going to solve anything, nor giving the Scots independence. Possibly the Scots can have independence, if like we are with Brexit, they pay a penalty to leave the UK, ie their share of the National Debt as they have been net receivers of funds from the rest of the country for years. That would keep the unelected Mrs Sturgeon busy in finding those funds.

Also, the election has to address many other pressing reforms and improvements in our society if we are to move forward in an orderly and reasonable many for the benefit of the electorate.

Please lets hope we can return to reasoned and consensual government.

Best arguement for paying the divorce bill..lol

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
01 November, 2019 13:48
Population of Scotland 5.25m

Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 November, 2019 14:02
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

They owe a lot more than that BSJ:

Scotlandís notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UKís total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotlandís figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
01 November, 2019 14:12
Woodpecker do you ever sit back and reflect, and after this reflection are you still always 100% certain that your view is completely correct?

jameswood14
Woodpecker
01 November, 2019 14:47
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Woodpecker do you ever sit back and reflect, and after this reflection are you still always 100% certain that your view is completely correct?

Hmm yes in respect to whether it is my view its 100% correct as I thought it, thats what the forum is for putting your views.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
01 November, 2019 15:08
Quote:
Woodpecker
Excellent move Nigel, fantastic! Split the brexit vote.

Always thought Farage was a bit dim, he's proved it by deliberately splitting the Brexit vote.

DanWiley
DanWiley
01 November, 2019 16:51
Well, there are those saying that the person who is worst off by losing their EU gravey train... Is him.

I'd be surprised if he actually does it in practical terms. He's splitting limited resources in more directions than he really wants to. He's going to have to target seats and I suspect the Tories are gambling he'll go for the ones in labour heartland and so it's a defacto pact anyway.

I wonder, with the Tories being threatened by him, this is the time people will REALLY start to look at the brexit party finances.

As ever with this, we'll see.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
01 November, 2019 16:57
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

They owe a lot more than that BSJ:

Scotlandís notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UKís total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotlandís figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
01 November, 2019 17:06
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

They owe a lot more than that BSJ:

Scotlandís notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UKís total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotlandís figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?

The EU turns a blind eye whenever it's suits them. They are nothing if not masters of realpolitik. I imagine that Scotland would be major recipients of EU funds once they join.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
01 November, 2019 17:37
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

They owe a lot more than that BSJ:

Scotlandís notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UKís total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotlandís figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?

The EU turns a blind eye whenever it's suits them. They are nothing if not masters of realpolitik. I imagine that Scotland would be major recipients of EU funds once they join.

They are major recipients now of funds from London as well as EU, not sure what the SNP think they will gain were they to Scexit UK. They might will be worse off as the London funding model changes. I for one would glad to see the back of their pompous leader at Westminster...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
01 November, 2019 17:42
Quote:
joethefanatic

The EU turns a blind eye whenever it's suits them. They are nothing if not masters of realpolitik. I imagine that Scotland would be major recipients of EU funds once they join.

I don't agree with that assessment... The EU tolerated the, relatively, poorer nations while they, like we, were overseeing a successful economy.

Since that retracted, it has enforced hard austerity on Greece and (one nation) is refusing entry for the likes of North Macedonia, whom it knows it would have to support.

Would the EU accept Scotland? Of course, it fulfills it's imperial aims with a willing supplicant. Would it extract a cost from Scotland? Even more so. Scotland is nowhere near a position of strength, worse than the UK as a whole. If you like the liberal ideal of the EU, then it's ok. If you want the practicalities, then it would be devastating for Scotland.

But let's not pretend that EU membership is anything but a short term tactic for the SNP to argue for independence. Of polls had shown leaving the EU was good for independence, they'd back it in a flash...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
01 November, 2019 17:52
With Scotland being such a ďburdenĒ its incredible how hard the rest of the U.K. and itís leaders fought to retain Scotland in the Union.

J

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
01 November, 2019 17:56
Euro adoption is entirely optional. Itís an old trope used to scare people. Show ambition to move in that direction and you are in. Talk to Sweden how they are getting on with adopting the Euro.

Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

They owe a lot more than that BSJ:

Scotlandís notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UKís total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotlandís figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP.

Scotland's finances preclude them joining the EU as an independent nation unless they turn a blind eye as they did for Greece. Defecits need to be at 3% of GDP or lower to comply and they will have to adopt the euro. How independent will that leave them, swapping one remote governing institution for another?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
01 November, 2019 18:04
Conservative and Unionist[u][/u] Party

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
01 November, 2019 18:19
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Conservative and Unionist[u][/u] Party

Unless you are Unionists in Northern Ireland, if so, get under that £350m a week bus.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
01 November, 2019 18:31
Interesting point except I think you need to follow the will of the people. In the last Scottish Referendum they voted to stay.

Northern Ireland is gradually moving to a place where a sharply reducing majority (?) wish to stay as part of the Union. Given demographic changes friends of mine who are from Belfast and protestant see things only going one way over 10 to 20 years.

For a very long time Northern Ireland has had different laws and has been, of late become much more aligned with Southern Ireland.

It is interesting if "push came to shove" whether Southern Ireland really would want to link up with the much, much poorer Northern Ireland?

DanWiley
DanWiley
01 November, 2019 19:46
If we brexit we've given the SNP a slam dunk referendum fur leaving at some point. The economic arguements are irrelevant, just as they for Brexit.

It wouldn't be that interesting whether Southern Ireland want the North, take Dublin out and ni and eire are pretty similar economy wise. Culturally they'll go for it and bojo has gifted them stronger cultural links.

Don't kid yourself, brexit is pretty likely to lead to the end of Great Britain and the UK. Well done guys.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
01 November, 2019 21:29
Quote:
DanWiley
If we brexit we've given the SNP a slam dunk referendum fuor leaving at some point. The economic arguements are irrelevant, just as they for Brexit.
It wouldn't be that interesting whether Southern Ireland want the North, take Dublin out and ni and eire are pretty similar economy wise. Culturally they'll go for it and bojo has gifted them stronger cultural links.

Don't kid yourself, brexit is pretty likely to lead to the end of Great Britain and the UK. Well done guys.

Your grasp of recent history is at best tenuous and more likely denial. The devolution policies of the Blair government have led to the stresses on the union with Scotland, yet another example of the theory of unintended consequences...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
02 November, 2019 08:11
I tell you what take Cork out of Southern Ireland and they have a GDP per capita of Somalia!

DanWiley
DanWiley
02 November, 2019 11:15
"The devolution policies of the Blair government have led to the stresses on the union with Scotland"

Nope. You've got that @#$%& about face, the stresses were there hence the devolution. Do you really think there wasn't a significant proportion of Scots who wanted more independence until Blair came along and suddenly it was a thing? Your grasp of ALL of English-Scottish history is non existent if you think that that's the case.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 November, 2019 11:27
Scotland were always going to seek independence, its not about Brexit at all. Long term its a bad idea but the world is about immediate gratification so if they get a sniff they are off!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
02 November, 2019 11:32
Not unlike brexit.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
02 November, 2019 11:35
Quote:
DanWiley
"The devolution policies of the Blair government have led to the stresses on the union with Scotland"
Nope. You've got that @#$%& about face, the stresses were there hence the devolution. Do you really think there wasn't a significant proportion of Scots who wanted more independence until Blair came along and suddenly it was a thing? Your grasp of ALL of English-Scottish history is non existent if you think that that's the case.

It is true there has always been a sense of Scottish nationalism.

But it is equally true that devolution has strengthened the SNP and, therefore, it's cause. (It is also true that Labour thought that devolution would secure their place in Scotland).

It has shown Scotland that it can behave independently and have control of (some of) it's affairs. If devolution, with a government and separate policies, why not independence? If you can have your government in Scotland and then get a different government in England why not limit the franchise?

Noone can read the minds of a Scottish voter. There is a historical aspect to their decision making. There is equally a very present, more prominent, political aspect. An understanding of all UK history isn't necessary to see the successes of the SNP under devolution.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
02 November, 2019 12:38
Without brexit Scottish independence would have gone away for decades, until something fundamentally changed. It might well have even become an irrelevance.

With brexit everything that goes wrong in Scotland will be blamed on brexit and in turn on the English that forced it on them against their will. Rightly or wrongly is going to happen.

If you want Great Britain you don't want brexit.

John Tee
John Tee
02 November, 2019 14:33
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Population of Scotland 5.25m
Population of UK 67.25m

National Debt £1,820bn

Scotland's share £142bn

Simples and off they go!

Yep, let them go. lol

If we pay to leave the e.u, the principle is set.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 November, 2019 16:43
Quote:
DanWiley
Without brexit Scottish independence would have gone away for decades, until something fundamentally changed. It might well have even become an irrelevance.

Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist.
The clue is in the name Scottish National Party, 35 out of 59 seats, with that support a national party has to grab what it can when it can!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

JFPC
JFPC
02 November, 2019 17:39
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
DanWiley
"The devolution policies of the Blair government have led to the stresses on the union with Scotland"
Nope. You've got that @#$%& about face, the stresses were there hence the devolution. Do you really think there wasn't a significant proportion of Scots who wanted more independence until Blair came along and suddenly it was a thing? Your grasp of ALL of English-Scottish history is non existent if you think that that's the case.

It is true there has always been a sense of Scottish nationalism.

But it is equally true that devolution has strengthened the SNP and, therefore, it's cause. (It is also true that Labour thought that devolution would secure their place in Scotland).

It has shown Scotland that it can behave independently and have control of (some of) it's affairs. If devolution, with a government and separate policies, why not independence? If you can have your government in Scotland and then get a different government in England why not limit the franchise?

Noone can read the minds of a Scottish voter. There is a historical aspect to their decision making. There is equally a very present, more prominent, political aspect. An understanding of all UK history isn't necessary to see the successes of the SNP under devolution.

Spain and Catalonia are showing the other way of dealing with things!



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
02 November, 2019 21:02
Quote:
JFPC

Spain and Catalonia are showing the other way of dealing with things!

Eh? Catalan has been granted autonomous status with it's own (limited) government.

Who do you think declared independence exactly? Did increased autonomy and its own political structure help prevent that?



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 November, 2019 08:44
"Scotland's share £142bn"

You'd break up the UK for £142bn! That's not much more than the yearly NHS budget.

"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."

What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.

Neither of those things would be true without brexit.

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
03 November, 2019 10:30
Quote:
DanWiley
"Scotland's share £142bn"
You'd break up the UK for £142bn! That's not much more than the yearly NHS budget.

"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."

What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.

Neither of those things would be true without brexit.

Iíd just argue the timings. Independence is coming for Scotland. Brexit has accelerated it. Indy support is at 50-50. It was 30-70 before the last campaign started in 2014.

And as you said, what has Westminster done to cover itself in glory in the intervening years?

J

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 November, 2019 14:07
I don't think Scottish independence WAS inevitable, though I worry it might now be. It's agree, prior to brexit, even it's potential was decades off. By that time is quite likely the Scottish that makes the whole thing feasible would either be gone or a lot less valuable as we transition away from fossil fuels. As you say, brexit has accelerated all that to a point where that oil will still be in play.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 15:15
Quote:
DanWiley
"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."

What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.

Neither of those things would be true without brexit.

No, I'm pretty certain that Scotland will go for independence, I clearly stated that above.

What I'm saying is that would have happened with or without Brexit. You are blaming Brexit for things that are unrelated. Scotland has always wanted to be its own master, check history.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

jameswood14
Woodpecker
04 November, 2019 11:14
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
DanWiley
"Thats your opinion Dan, No proof of this at all you are making a connection that simply doesn't exist."

What connection that doesn't exist am I making? That there will be a second indy ref? Plenty of evidence for that. That independence might well win? Being part of the EU was a big part of the first referendum. Not only will that work against the union campaign this time they can double down on the "and it's being forced on you against your will." It's not like the London politicians have spent the time between covering themselves in glory.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think: there won't be another indy ref AND independence has a great, gift wrapped, opportunity to win it.

Neither of those things would be true without brexit.

No, I'm pretty certain that Scotland will go for independence, I clearly stated that above.

What I'm saying is that would have happened with or without Brexit. You are blaming Brexit for things that are unrelated. Scotland has always wanted to be its own master, check history.

Apart from last time when they had a referendum...

jameswood14
Woodpecker
04 November, 2019 12:04
Apparently doing the rounds in Brussels:

[www.youtube.com]


Cant seem to get it to work as a live link, but paste it in

JFPC
JFPC
04 November, 2019 18:25
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
JFPC

Spain and Catalonia are showing the other way of dealing with things!

Eh? Catalan has been granted autonomous status with it's own (limited) government.

Who do you think declared independence exactly? Did increased autonomy and its own political structure help prevent that?

When I said dealing with things, I meant as in trying to halt the process.

If you think the process could have been halted before it started then perhaps Yugoslavia mught be the more apt example! If you don't like that one how about the break up of the Soviet Union? Pretty sure they didn't go in much for things like devolution. If you prefer things closer to home how about Ireland in the 20th C? Or the American war of independence?



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2019 19:49 by JFPC.

MarchingIn
MarchingIn
04 November, 2019 18:52
Quote:
shipwrecked
No, I'm pretty certain that Scotland will go for independence, I clearly stated that above.
What I'm saying is that would have happened with or without Brexit. You are blaming Brexit for things that are unrelated.

Scottish independence is, IMO, largely a result of a shift of post-industrial economic power to south east England, and the resulting end of socialism in the UK. The Scots are still much more left-leaning than us. Every government since 1979 has effectively imposed neoliberalism on Scotland regardless of how they vote.

I don't, however, think independence will happen in the next 5 years, providing that Brexit does.

Every debate about the complexities of Brexit applies more so to Scotland leaving the UK if the UK is outside the customs union and single market.

The Scottish fiscal deficit is over 9% - they cannot join the Euro with a deficit over 3%, and cutting spending is anathema to the SNP. The Euro is fast losing popularity and being blamed for the economic problems in Europe anyway. There is no way Scotland would be allowed to keep the pound, and launching an independent currency would be met with capital flight.

The time Scotland may leave if Brexit happens is when we are well clear of Brexit and have a settled relationship with the EU, as the argument will then be for Scotland to gain independence and join the EFTA/EEA, retain control of its fishing rights, and be able to sign a comprehensive independent trade & customs agreement with rUK. That's a more credible plan, but the SNP may well bleed away their own support in the meantime demanding referendums every 5 minutes without a credible plan, and not actually doing a very good job with limited power from Holyrood

DanWiley
DanWiley
04 November, 2019 19:39
Careful now. You're trying to be rational about how people vote in a referendum. We're living through proof that isn't the case.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
04 November, 2019 20:57
Quote:
DanWiley
Careful now. You're trying to be rational about how people vote in a referendum. We're living through proof that isn't the case.

Aha... 'Leavers are stupid' post - type #2412. (Topped off with a liberal helping of smug superiority).

For what it's worth I agree with Marchingin. Brexit and then Scottish Independence goes away. Remain , or delay, and then it approaches likelihood. The EU gives nations that cannot stand on their own, the illusion of sovereignty.

Take that away and Scotland is awfully exposed. There is no way it will be able to replace the importance of the rest of the countries in the UK, short of them being in the same union - be it the Kingdom of the European version. It's the same reason why Catalan's can feel so comfortable of independence.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
04 November, 2019 21:02
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

BBandW
BBandW
05 November, 2019 13:26
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
05 November, 2019 14:01
Iíd like to think that Scotland not contributing to a swashbuckling Defence budget, Son of Trident, Cross Rail, HS2 and the other South East infrastructure projects will help any perceived deficit.

Combined with a rebalancing of what actually is part of Scotlandís exports and is currently counted as a U.K. export (think Scottish whiskey departing from Dover).

Oil is a bonus, but new tech, renewables are the future. Perhaps with some sort of investment incentives to Multinationals who want English speaking access to the EU (when Scotland rejoin).

Most importantly itís the ability to make decisions in Scotland for Scotland. (BREXIT being a case point).

I get a bit tired of Scotland being run down.

J



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 14:02 by ChippenhamRoman.

malco
malco
05 November, 2019 17:47
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?

It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) ďthe same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about youĒ.

I didnít believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, heís absolutely right!

I donít know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For Godís sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, Iím sad for you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 17:50 by malco.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
05 November, 2019 18:15
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Woodpecker
Excellent move Nigel, fantastic! Split the brexit vote.

Always thought Farage was a bit dim, he's proved it by deliberately splitting the Brexit vote.

He isn't. I can't decide what he is though:
1. Is a fanatic. Only the fantasy of a no-strings no-deal Brexit will do. Anything else is BRINO. There is no doubt that a lot of his devotees now believe this. And in fact believe they always did. Very Orwellian!
2. Is a kleptomaniac. If Brexit ever actually happened his career comes to an end and worse still, he has to get off the EU gravy train.
3. Is a megalomaniac. The only acceptable Brexit is one with him at its head. So play the long game: Allow the Tories to humiliate themselves in the election and fail to win a majority. Then win the next election in a massive backlash against losing the 2nd referendum.
4. Is a gambler: Put up all 600 candidates, campaign like a nutter, get good poll numbers and force the Tories into an election pact at the last minute.

I reckon 4 is the most likely. We will see.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
05 November, 2019 18:20
Quote:
malco
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?

It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) ďthe same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about youĒ.

I didnít believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, heís absolutely right!

I donít know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For Godís sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, Iím sad for you.

Hi malco, welcome back!
Glad to see the years have not mellowed you!

DanWiley
DanWiley
05 November, 2019 19:17
Do you ever read your posts back malco? You've been mentioned once, practically in passing, and you respond like that. I'm really not sure:

"For Godís sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, Iím sad for you."

applies to us.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
05 November, 2019 20:02
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I can bet that sentiment comes directly from a load more people than that guy.

Remain sneering is the biggest tactical, as well as strategic, error. It's not just turning off floating voters in this country, it's turning Europe off as well.

It's a never an electorally sound strategy to make oneself feel better at the expense of the wider populace. Yet time and time again, Remain can't help themselves...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
05 November, 2019 20:14
"It's a never an electorally sound strategy to make oneself feel better at the expense of the wider populace. "

I'm not standing for election. I'm posting an a relatively small forum that's principally about rugby. I'm also pointing out that the very same argument was made by leavers in pretty much the same patronising manner. It's possible that it crossed my mind that someone jumping in and calling it the sort of thing a smug remainder would say would be particularly ironic.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
05 November, 2019 21:52
As a proud remoaner, I will feel smug the day Article 50 is revoked and Brexit abandoned. Not before.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

JFPC
JFPC
05 November, 2019 22:13
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I can bet that sentiment comes directly from a load more people than that guy.

Remain sneering is the biggest tactical, as well as strategic, error. It's not just turning off floating voters in this country, it's turning Europe off as well.

It's a never an electorally sound strategy to make oneself feel better at the expense of the wider populace. Yet time and time again, Remain can't help themselves...

Pot, kettle?



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
06 November, 2019 11:37
Aah Dan Wiley vs. Malco, this takes me back to the heady days of 2016!

BBandW
BBandW
06 November, 2019 11:44
Quote:
malco
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?

It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) ďthe same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about youĒ.

I didnít believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, heís absolutely right!

I donít know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For Godís sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, Iím sad for you.

A bit over the top Malco ? Anyway, I feel sure you said something in the past about never visiting this forum again, dead in a ditch, no ifs, buts or maybe's - perhaps I have you confused.

What are you up to these days - still a climate change denialist and driving gas guzzlers or are you a born again Greta Thunberg disciple ? Do tell.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 November, 2019 12:14
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
malco
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?

It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) ďthe same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about youĒ.

I didnít believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, heís absolutely right!

I donít know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For Godís sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, Iím sad for you.

A bit over the top Malco ? Anyway, I feel sure you said something in the past about never visiting this forum again, dead in a ditch, no ifs, buts or maybe's - perhaps I have you confused.

What are you up to these days - still a climate change denialist and driving gas guzzlers or are you a born again Greta Thunberg disciple ? Do tell.

He comes across as rather uneducated with his laughable rant.

gaz59
gaz59
08 November, 2019 14:53
Quote:
malco
Quote:
BBandW
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm afraid to say that sentiment comes directly from malco.

I assumed they were the same person - am I incorrect ?

It has been years since I last logged onto this joke of a website. A friend informed me today that (his words) ďthe same old sad inadequate b4st4rds are still anonymously posting abuse about youĒ.

I didnít believe this could possibly be true so nipped in to have a look and hey, heís absolutely right!

I donít know what sort miserable half formed cretin still spends his entire life posting this level of@#$%&on a 1990s Internet forum. For Godís sake get a grip. Grow up. Stop behaving like pathetic 12 year old whining @#$%&. Go and find fulfilling hobbies. Go for a walk. Do something meaningful with your lives. Honesty, Iím sad for you.

Coming from the wise old man who said so confidently that Brexit was a breeze and mega billion free trade deals with USA and the rest of the free world were just waiting to be signed

gaz59
gaz59
08 November, 2019 22:29
And Johnson clearly playing to the notion of fooling enough of the people for enough of the time to get the keys to number 10 for another term. His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance

Let the public decide

Assuming they want to, of course

MarchingIn
MarchingIn
09 November, 2019 08:09
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Iíd like to think that Scotland not contributing to a swashbuckling Defence budget, Son of Trident, Cross Rail, HS2 and the other South East infrastructure projects will help any perceived deficit.
Combined with a rebalancing of what actually is part of Scotlandís exports and is currently counted as a U.K. export (think Scottish whiskey departing from Dover).

Oil is a bonus, but new tech, renewables are the future. Perhaps with some sort of investment incentives to Multinationals who want English speaking access to the EU (when Scotland rejoin).

Most importantly itís the ability to make decisions in Scotland for Scotland. (BREXIT being a case point).

I get a bit tired of Scotland being run down.

J

The deficit is calculated by the Scottish parliament, includes all oil & gas production in Scottish waters, all goods manufactured in Scotland, all tax revenues raised from Scotland on these vs all spending in Scotland and a population proportionate share of things like defence and national debt. It is accepted by Nicola Sturgeon as factually correct. You could argue it could be trimmed slightly in certain areas but that won't turn 9% into 3%.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
09 November, 2019 10:28
Quote:
gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance

Do you even know what an exit summary declaration (the 'checks' in question is)? Do you know what its purpose is, what information it requires? Because most people don't, including our politicians and our media.

The reality is until the end of transition we won't know what forms, if any, are required. The likelihood, unless there is a complete breakdown of trust like a no deal, is that there won't be any additional documentary requirements. They add a burden to ROI and they would be a nightmare to legally enforce when NI is legally (of not practically) outside the Customs Union. This should be resolved politically - of course, in these polarised times...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BBandW
BBandW
10 November, 2019 09:55
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance

Do you even know what an exit summary declaration (the 'checks' in question is)? Do you know what its purpose is, what information it requires? Because most people don't, including our politicians and our media.

The reality is until the end of transition we won't know what forms, if any, are required. The likelihood, unless there is a complete breakdown of trust like a no deal, is that there won't be any additional documentary requirements. They add a burden to ROI and they would be a nightmare to legally enforce when NI is legally (of not practically) outside the Customs Union. This should be resolved politically - of course, in these polarised times...

Among the politicians who "don't know", do you include the Governments's Brexit Secretary, Stephen Barclay, who in his testimony to the House of Lords recently, confirmed documentation between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK will be required. And where documentation is required physical checks are sure to follow

Appears that only Johnson seems to think there will be no documentation required - and we all know his proven track record for telling the truth or checking on details.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2019 09:58 by BBandW.

gaz59
gaz59
10 November, 2019 09:56
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance

Do you even know what an exit summary declaration (the 'checks' in question is)? Do you know what its purpose is, what information it requires? Because most people don't, including our politicians and our media.

...

Nope but the political writers I respect all seem to say that more checks will be required not fewer which does seem to make sense if stuff and people have to cross borders that have different regulations. How else do you avoid smuggling, for example?

So for Johnson to say "just chuck them in the bin" would seem to me to be either ignorant of the detail of his own agreement if you accept the above or more likely he does know but wants enough people to believe otherwise for long enough to get the keys to no 10 for another term

Given the way that key reports like the Arcuri and Russian involvement in the referendum cases are being kicked down the road until after the election I'm strongly suspecting there is a theme emerging in the Johnson GE playbook

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
10 November, 2019 11:20
Quote:
gaz59
His statements on Northern Ireland custom checks is blatantly a lie or crass ignorance

Quote:
gaz59
Nope but the political writers I respect all seem to say that more checks will be required not fewer which does seem to make sense if stuff and people have to cross borders that have different regulations. How else do you avoid smuggling, for example?

Certainly there will be more documentation required UK to NI. The Exit Summary Declaration is a risk assessment used to manage risks such as smuggling. There are (in existence) other ways of doing it. Whether they can be politically agreed to is another matter...

Quote:
gaz59
So for Johnson to say "just chuck them in the bin" would seem to me to be either ignorant of the detail of his own agreement if you accept the above or more likely he does know but wants enough people to believe otherwise for long enough to get the keys to no 10 for another term.

Nope. On the balance of probability, he is right (NI to UK). Of course both sides could play politics with this and deliver a suboptimal solution. Absolutely the media will play politics with this. Which political writers you respect probably corresponds with the kind of journalist who reinforces your political outlook...

Quote:
gaz59
Given the way that key reports like the Arcuri and Russian involvement in the referendum cases are being kicked down the road until after the election I'm strongly suspecting there is a theme emerging in the Johnson GE playbook

This is nothing new. And there is an argument for the other side: look at Clinton's dislike of Comey reopening the emails investigation. Once the investigation is opened, the headlines generated and rumours and misinformation spread it scarcely matters what the end result is.

And the end result of both these investigations will be ultimately disappointing for those championing their cause, you can bet a good amount of money on that, but that doesn't devalue their worth as a tool to influence the election while there is still no conclusion.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
hemington
10 November, 2019 11:48
If there is nothing there why don't they publish them?

BBandW
BBandW
10 November, 2019 12:09
Your postings,Bear, are getting more bizare and contradictory.

Ref documentations required for goods between UK mainland and NI; yesterday you state

"The reality is until the end of transition we won't know what forms, if any, are required."

today

"Certainly there will be more documentation required UK to NI"

Your dismissive and arrogant style of posting is so similar to that of dear old Malco (whose "friend" monitors this site) I cannot help wondering if you are not one of the same. For the avoidance of doubt, perhaps you could confirm.

BBandW
BBandW
10 November, 2019 12:30
Quote:

It is the Independent Office for Police Conduct decision to postpone the announcement regarding their decision whether to investigate possible criminality that is in question here.

If the IOPC have decided not to investigate, then why not say so now ? If they have though decided to investigate, then we can only surmise regarding the reasons they don't want to say until after the election.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
11 November, 2019 03:00
Quote:
BBandW
Your dismissive and arrogant style of posting is so similar to that of dear old Malco (whose "friend" monitors this site) I cannot help wondering if you are not one of the same. For the avoidance of doubt, perhaps you could confirm.

I canít see anything dismissive or arrogant about his postings or any more so than all the other views expressed on here, many of which are you expressed with a view of absolute certainty. It doesnít matter whether or not he is Malco. If you differ with his view say so rather than query his identity.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
11 November, 2019 12:42
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Brexit party not looking to take existing seats off Tories



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
11 November, 2019 19:33
Always thought they'd do that...but it doesn't seem a formal pact.
I wonder if Farage wants a job at the end of it..?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
11 November, 2019 21:23
No I think that Farage will go to the US and get a hard hitting chat show or something. Should earn him a few quid.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

DanWiley
DanWiley
12 November, 2019 08:45
Being Viscount of Thanet might give him some credibility in America.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
12 November, 2019 10:03
I know this is stating the obvious, but I wouldn't believe a word of any statement cobbled together by Johnson and Farage. Bet Farage knows where the cupboard with the skeletons is to be found. Although I do believe that they are both very clever politicians who know how to manipulate their voter base. I know one current local MP who will be extremely grateful that the Brexit candidate is withdrawing from the fight. Hundreds of probable Brexit voters have joined the Conservative Party over the past year.

BBandW
BBandW
12 November, 2019 11:15
Quote:
annie blackthorn
I know this is stating the obvious, but I wouldn't believe a word of any statement cobbled together by Johnson and Farage. Bet Farage knows where the cupboard with the skeletons is to be found. Although I do believe that they are both very clever politicians who know how to manipulate their voter base. I know one current local MP who will be extremely grateful that the Brexit candidate is withdrawing from the fight. Hundreds of probable Brexit voters have joined the Conservative Party over the past year.

Farage's sudden Road to Damascus moment is strange to say the least. A few days ago he presented his 600 strong legion of candidates ready to defeat the appauling "its simply not Brexit" Johnson deal. Days later he's read the small print and has realised it is possibly/probably/definitely/might be Brexit after all and half the army is stood down.

What dirty dealings went on in the interim days between Farage and Johnson ? I think we should be told.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
12 November, 2019 11:15
Clearly a behind the scenes deal has been done. At a level where both can deny it though. The irony of Farage putting any weight at all on what Mr 'Dead-in-a-ditch' says, let alone a couple of vague statements about the eventual trade deal and no extension of the transition period. As a fig leaf for an about face of such massive proportions, this one is postage stamp sized.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
12 November, 2019 13:07
Saves the Farage party a bit of money?
300 candidates x £500 application fee = £150000

John Tee
John Tee
12 November, 2019 13:40
They are all at it... Lib dems, Greens, Brexity party, Tories.
I dont see the difference

DanWiley
DanWiley
12 November, 2019 15:12
I don't think the Lib Dems or Greens are doing it for a peerage. That's quite a big difference.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
12 November, 2019 15:34
Quote:
John Tee
They are all at it... Lib dems, Greens, Brexity party, Tories.
I dont see the difference

All at what? And have you deliberately omitted Labour because they are not? And by all do you mean everyone in each party; all MPs or just a few? Rather a glib statement in my humble opinion.

BBandW
BBandW
12 November, 2019 16:00
Quote:
John Tee
They are all at it... Lib dems, Greens, Brexity party, Tories.
I dont see the difference

I'll think you'll find that only Farage has withdrawn 50% of his candidates only days after saying they were all standing. Seems rather a large difference to me.

How long before the other 50% are withdrawn before they are under orders at the starting gate ?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
12 November, 2019 17:04
I think it is a question of getting most of what you want rather than the Brexit Party idea of perfection.

Just as Stephen Kinnock, and apparently some other Labour MP's, wished they had voted for TM's deal. Her deal was a very soft Brexit, Johnson's is a harder Brexit.

The choice is going for the Liberal/Green/SNP/Plaid Cymru pact and therefore revoking Article 50 or voting for Labour and not having a clue where you end up or voting Conservative and getting the current deal that has been agreed by the EU. Looking at the odds it was a pretty pragmatic and sensible decision by Farage and Tice.

Whatever you and I think of him he has been one of the most influential politicians in the past 10 years.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
12 November, 2019 17:15
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
I think it is a question of getting most of what you want rather than the Brexit Party idea of perfection.
Just as Stephen Kinnock, and apparently some other Labour MP's, wished they had voted for TM's deal. Her deal was a very soft Brexit, Johnson's is a harder Brexit.

The choice is going for the Liberal/Green/SNP/Plaid Cymru pact and therefore revoking Article 50 or voting for Labour and not having a clue where you end up or voting Conservative and getting the current deal that has been agreed by the EU. Looking at the odds it was a pretty pragmatic and sensible decision by Farage and Tice.

Whatever you and I think of him he has been one of the most influential politicians in the past 10 years.

Can Farage be said to be a UK politician? - he's never been elected to anything. Ironically, he clearly *is* an EU politician!



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
12 November, 2019 17:15
Martin Baxter's Electoral Calculus has, in my view, an absurd majority of 114 for the Conservatives.

If it is anything like true the results will feature howls from the Liberals who are forecast to get more than half the votes of Labour but just one ninth of the seats!

Mind you SNP are forecast to get about one fifth of the Liberal vote and are forecast to get more than double the seats!

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
12 November, 2019 18:09
Latest presumably with the Nigel flounce!

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 42% (+3)
LAB: 28% (+2)
LDEM: 15% (-2)
BREX: 4% (-6)
GRN: 4% (-)

via @YouGov, 11 - 12 Nov
Chgs. w/ 08 Nov.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
12 November, 2019 19:32
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Martin Baxter's Electoral Calculus has, in my view, an absurd majority of 114 for the Conservatives.
If it is anything like true the results will feature howls from the Liberals who are forecast to get more than half the votes of Labour but just one ninth of the seats!

Mind you SNP are forecast to get about one fifth of the Liberal vote and are forecast to get more than double the seats!

If I were the LibDems I would make the successful passage of legislation for proportional representation within 1 year of taking office my price for supporting a minority UK government.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
12 November, 2019 20:17
Quote:
jayeatman
Clearly a behind the scenes deal has been done. At a level where both can deny it though. The irony of Farage putting any weight at all on what Mr 'Dead-in-a-ditch' says, let alone a couple of vague statements about the eventual trade deal and no extension of the transition period. As a fig leaf for an about face of such massive proportions, this one is postage stamp sized.

And the Tory Partyís transformation is complete.

Why fight them or convince them of Hard No Deal Brexit when you can simply take them over and get your ideas implemented?

The very thing that ďCall me DaveĒ was afraid off has happened. The Conservative and Unionist Party is now UKIP/BREXIT.

No broad church here.

J

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
12 November, 2019 21:11
In the eventuality of a Tory majority, what's to stop them repealing the 'No Hard Brexit' Act, and going for 'Hard Brexit'?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
12 November, 2019 22:23
Mike

I don't think this will happen because the vast majority of people voting conservative want a deal done. This deal has been agreed and people want it to be completed as soon as possible so we can get onto the next phase.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
12 November, 2019 23:06
Joe

Labour have been asked to join the coalition but they also know that if they agree to PR they will never enjoy a majority government again.

Better, like Blair, to change Labour so that it attracts the "new" Liberals..........

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