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MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
26 December, 2019 21:09
Quote:
gaz59
Democracy is like history, it is the winners that get to define it
2019 General Election 12th December: Zac Goldsmith overwhelmingly voted out of parliament for the second time in three years and by a majority of over seven thousand.

13th December made life peer and retains place in Johnson's cabinet

How can that be described as being democratic?

A peoples' government? Yep, so long as it is the right people .... through the eyes of Johnson and Cummings

An example to follow:

Quote:
BathMatt53
Deleted because it’s Christmas.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

warrenball
warrenball
27 December, 2019 09:39
It is time we put this behind us, whichever way we voted we have now got to make the best of it. I am concerned because I remember how we were called the 'sick man of Europe' before we joined. That was caused by a number of factors, bad management, unions out of control and see-sawing governments. I doubt we will learn any lessons from that era, the only people old enough to understand are dismissed as old, white and stale. However it is a very different world from the 1970's and although I have my doubts we still have to get on and make the best of it. Rejoining is not an option the EU would impose all sorts of changes to our membership, including the Euro and we would not have all the advantages we had before.

John Tee
John Tee
27 December, 2019 09:42
yep, dont agree with tacky manouverings like that. It would go down a tad better if he was particularly skilled in what we require...that is a very wide remit... rather than for 'favours'..

I can see a case for drastically reducing the Lords...

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
27 December, 2019 10:02
Quote:
John Tee
yep, dont agree with tacky manouverings like that. It would go down a tad better if he was particularly skilled in what we require...that is a very wide remit... rather than for 'favours'..
I can see a case for drastically reducing the Lords...

Reduce the numbers by at least 50% and have them voted in by the public. The place is stuffed with old and entitled people.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
27 December, 2019 10:17
Just wonder how long this thread will thrash around for, agree with Warrenball on this. Drifting off topic into a Lords debate now! To answer the point.

There have been ministers in the Lords since 1979, the link below contains a download with details of ministers from both parties. It is a well established practice.

[researchbriefings.parliament.uk]



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

gaz59
gaz59
27 December, 2019 11:15
Certainly agree it is important now to accept both referendum and general election, no problem with that at all. But part of that is calling out hypocrisy and/or reneged promises.

Johnson has claimed to be the people's government. That is a massive claim and he needs to be held to account for it

DanWiley
DanWiley
27 December, 2019 11:19
Please don't get the public to elect the lords on a short term basis. We've enough populism in politics as it is, a house that is free to consider the long term is essential.

I don't think it has to be a vote as such either, nominations selected from people deemed to have achieved in the field, but aren't typically politicians would be my preference. Career politicians might have their place, but I'd rather there was also a place without them.

gaz59
gaz59
27 December, 2019 12:35
Baroness Bryan came up some interesting proposals with regional representatives and would have kept Scotland in the union

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
27 December, 2019 16:20
[www.msn.com] Nice way to make a quick buck or two!

warrenball
warrenball
27 December, 2019 17:04
I have always thought an elected second chamber ridiculous, it is only there to provide thoughtful comment on the bills proposed by the Commons, if they are elected they will try and challenge the House of Commons and then we will start having all the usual bickering about having different groups demanding equal numbers. Elected members will be like MEP's, anonymous and only the people who cannot get a job elsewhere will bother to apply.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
27 December, 2019 18:59
The House of Lords has many talented and experienced experts who have retired from working 9-5 o to speak, but as many who have either bought or been given as political reward for service in the lower house.

As for Mr eer - sorry 'Lord' Goldsmith - you are having a laugh. Great friend of PM's girlfriend - sorry …..'partner', with a tenuous link to environmental issues, o, and of course, loads of dosh. But then, that's what being 'world king' enables you to do - same as the new MP for Devizes (avec parachute from CCHQ). Fortunately, I do think there are also dozens of excellent talented hardworking new MP's without any of those advantages who will make their contributions.

gaz59
gaz59
27 December, 2019 20:30
Quote:
warrenball
I have always thought an elected second chamber ridiculous, it is only there to provide thoughtful comment on the bills proposed by the Commons, if they are elected they will try and challenge the House of Commons and then we will start having all the usual bickering about having different groups demanding equal numbers. Elected members will be like MEP's, anonymous and only the people who cannot get a job elsewhere will bother to apply.

Why is an elected second tier more ridiculous than the current system of landed gentry, government mates and sponsors?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
27 December, 2019 20:36
You could always expressly elect them to do a different role to the Commons. You know with a job description written down and everything.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

DanWiley
DanWiley
27 December, 2019 20:39
I'm sure wb has his own reasons, for me:

I agree our current system isn't great, though I can see it's origins and changing political systems is dangerous and should be done slowly, but slowly we are changing it.

I suppose it also depends what you mean by elect? As I say, anything like the current, short term, popular vote system would defeat the point of having a second house.

Electing a peer for life, up to a reasonable retirement age, but not hereditary would be good. But also almost picking people at random might be a workable idea.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
27 December, 2019 21:23
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm sure wb has his own reasons, for me:
I agree our current system isn't great, though I can see it's origins and changing political systems is dangerous and should be done slowly, but slowly we are changing it.

I suppose it also depends what you mean by elect? As I say, anything like the current, short term, popular vote system would defeat the point of having a second house.

Electing a peer for life, up to a reasonable retirement age, but not hereditary would be good. But also almost picking people at random might be a workable idea.

The Irish Citizen's Assembly seemed to be reasonably successful.

[en.wikipedia.org])



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

JFPC
JFPC
27 December, 2019 23:14
One of my thoughts for an improvement to our short term and therefore shortsighted politicians is 10 year terms but half the house elected every 5 years. Government can still be held to account but once you're in, you have time to think a bit longer term.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
28 December, 2019 09:53
I'm no fan of the man but to be fair Goldsmith seems more qualified than most to be environment minister, certainly more so than Adonis for Transport (Adonis having never even been an MP).

I would understand the criticism much more if it was directed at Nicky Morgan, whose credentials are diminished by her bootlicking abilities. I can only guess it is because one supported Brexit and the other did not...

Quote:
JFPC
One of my thoughts for an improvement to our short term and therefore shortsighted politicians is 10 year terms but half the house elected every 5 years. Government can still be held to account but once you're in, you have time to think a bit longer term.

I've thought about this is in the past too. But I'm not sure it will cure short-termism. Either the parliament is within the boundaries of change - in which case they'll be short-term - or the majority will be so far ahead, there will be no fear of removal or incentive to slow down.

I think parliament needs to be slowed down. New legislation, once accepted by parliament, needs to be subject to a longer period of scrutiny with the objective to find unintended consequences (and not the moral grandstanding of the likes seen in Parliament), involving those members of the public with a specific interest and then address them - not try and score party political points. The exceptions would be finance bills, foreign negotiations (e.g. climate treaties, trade deals) and national security bills.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
28 December, 2019 10:09
Quote:
JFPC
One of my thoughts for an improvement to our short term and therefore shortsighted politicians is 10 year terms but half the house elected every 5 years. Government can still be held to account but once you're in, you have time to think a bit longer term.

No thanks, this model is used for unitary authorities and in my case it keeps a hopeless Tory local government in place for longer.

JFPC
JFPC
28 December, 2019 10:38
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
JFPC
One of my thoughts for an improvement to our short term and therefore shortsighted politicians is 10 year terms but half the house elected every 5 years. Government can still be held to account but once you're in, you have time to think a bit longer term.

No thanks, this model is used for unitary authorities and in my case it keeps a hopeless Tory local government in place for longer.

Fair enough, any other ideas for getting politicians to think and act more long term?



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
28 December, 2019 10:45
Quote:
JFPC
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
JFPC
One of my thoughts for an improvement to our short term and therefore shortsighted politicians is 10 year terms but half the house elected every 5 years. Government can still be held to account but once you're in, you have time to think a bit longer term.

No thanks, this model is used for unitary authorities and in my case it keeps a hopeless Tory local government in place for longer.

Fair enough, any other ideas for getting politicians to think and act more long term?

Unfortunately not, although right now I'd just like them to have an ounce of honesty, integrity and work ethic which is sadly lacking in UK politics. If they did that we would have something to build on for the future.

DanWiley
DanWiley
28 December, 2019 11:01
"Fair enough, any other ideas for getting politicians to think and act more long term?"

Pay them well. Stop all other incomes. Only allow donations to parties of up to, say, £1000.

Let's be honest, they don't act in the long term interest because they are effectively bribed not to. Whether it's unions or big business parties are effectively a mechanism for large organisations to buy political influence. At the end of the day, that's why they donate. Stop that and you'll find a lot more honestly in politics.

Then stop people directly paying politicians. Why should you need another job or income of you're paid well? That's the deal for representing your country, you get paid by your country and only by your country. You might then think about acting only in its interest.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
28 December, 2019 22:40
Nice idea, Dan but human nature being what it is, no-one is going to turn down making a bit extra on top of their MP's salary and expenses, especially if it can be done 'discretely' as so many of their payments are. I don't suppose, just for example, that JR-M would be much impressed if he had to live on his MP's salary, plus the additional modest by his standards payment of being in Cabinet.

Then of course, there are the overseas research trips, another nice little earner.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
28 December, 2019 22:58
That's exactly why it shouldn't be allowed. Being an MP should be a 24/7 job. If JR-M or anybody else can't live on the salary they are not in it for the right reason.

gaz59
gaz59
28 December, 2019 23:16
It is the government that we expect to think long term

We vote for our MP on the basis of who will represent our interests best at Parliament and that will be a mixture of immediate pothole type stuff and longer term stuff like new hospitals

All th more reason why reform of house of lords is essential

DanWiley
DanWiley
29 December, 2019 00:21
It's not about them turning it down. It's making it a part of the job, here's your decent salery for being an MP, if you accept any more you're deselected and criminal charges are pressed.

Sure you're going to get gifts, but let's document them from the macaroni card from your daughter upwards.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
29 December, 2019 09:06
I have some sympathy for the salary argument but I don't think a professionalised class of politicians has done us much good in the last 10-20 years.

I'd rather mandate they had minimum experience before politicis and more scrutiny on their past experience.

Some of these 20-something Tory-bootlickers and previous Union bag carriers are genuinely not going to provide the experience to produce good political outcomes. It may ways it makes the HoL more important...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
29 December, 2019 09:48
Quote:
DanWiley
It's not about them turning it down. It's making it a part of the job, here's your decent salery for being an MP, if you accept any more you're deselected and criminal charges are pressed.
Sure you're going to get gifts, but let's document them from the macaroni card from your daughter upwards.

MP’s are paid more than enough taking into account the quality of their work and their vast and unjustified expenses.

I agree though they should be prevented by law from accepting any other source of income.

warrenball
warrenball
29 December, 2019 09:54
Sounds like a lot of you just want the Lords to be a copy of the Commons with second rate people given credence just because they are elected. What is so wonderful about being elected, why not elect judges, obviously because you need some basic education and experience to understand what is going on, why not apply that the Lords - nobody under 35, nobody who has not held a full time job for at least 5 years outside politics and a strict limit on former members of the Commons. We need educated, experienced, intelligent people who can bring real authority from their field of work to any new version of the Lords. And forget trying to shoehorn in every minority, we need the best brains.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
29 December, 2019 11:22
Basic MP's salary is just under 80k a year.
They get generous allowances to run their offices, plus their second home including furnishing, travel, etc.

DanWiley
DanWiley
29 December, 2019 17:26
Yeah, I should add, increase wages, no expenses. Get rid of that grey area.

I don't really much care what figure you settle on for what "a good wage" is. If you think the current level is enough, then fine, though I think you're wrong if you want to attract talented people.

The point is, do it because you care about the country, not because you or your party will get paid for the decisions you make, that's fundamentally corrupt.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
29 December, 2019 18:02
Cut the number of MP's to 300, USA House of Reps for 300m people is I think 375.

Pay them £150,000 with much stricter expenses.

I would also like to say you can't be an MP until you are 40 but I know that would not be popular!!!

JFPC
JFPC
29 December, 2019 18:33
Quote:
warrenball
Sounds like a lot of you just want the Lords to be a copy of the Commons with second rate people given credence just because they are elected. What is so wonderful about being elected, why not elect judges, obviously because you need some basic education and experience to understand what is going on, why not apply that the Lords - nobody under 35, nobody who has not held a full time job for at least 5 years outside politics and a strict limit on former members of the Commons. We need educated, experienced, intelligent people who can bring real authority from their field of work to any new version of the Lords. And forget trying to shoehorn in every minority, we need the best brains.

The article below gives a different perspective as to why 'shoehorning in every minority' might actually be a good idea.
[www.bbc.co.uk]



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

DanWiley
DanWiley
29 December, 2019 18:58
"I would also like to say you can't be an MP until you are 40"

Why? Why would you want a parliament that didn't represent the country?

warrenball
warrenball
29 December, 2019 21:05
Dan if you want a representative group to mirror the population it will one by definition average, don't know about you but I would prefer to be governed by people who are way above average.

DanWiley
DanWiley
29 December, 2019 21:25
I assume you're trying to be funny wb, because what you've said is total nonsense.

If you want a government to be representative, you don't want to build in a bias in any direction. You might as well ask for "above average height". You want a government that is above average height? That would be better would it?

Maybe you'll waffle something about experience, but what you gain in experience you lose in mental faculties as anyone over 40 open to experience would confirm. Either way it's not the point, you really do want a government that reflects the nation and you don't do that by electing only from one demographic.

gaz59
gaz59
29 December, 2019 22:38
Quote:
warrenball
Dan if you want a representative group to mirror the population it will one by definition average, don't know about you but I would prefer to be governed by people who are way above average.

Actually I would settle quite happily for an averagely competent government. At least that would rule out honours chucked out to idiots like IDS getting promotion having brought in a vastly over-complicated and discriminatory benefits system

But DW, be sensible - we need a system that represents us much better in both houses. That has nothing to do with % height, weight or age but ensures there is far better balance of people in government from across the spread of our society than currently where it is overwhelmingly public school, white and male and not disabled

MESSAGES->author
hemington
30 December, 2019 08:39
Just look at the influence 16 year old Greta has achieved (in the world). In Warrenballs World she would have to wait another 24 years before she could stand for Parliament. (And yes I know she is Swedish)

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
30 December, 2019 09:35
Quote:
hemington
Just look at the influence 16 year old Greta has achieved (in the world). In Warrenballs World she would have to wait another 24 years before she could stand for Parliament. (And yes I know she is Swedish)

In my world too. I don't doubt the strength of conviction in her ideology. I doubt her experience, her solutions (she has none) and her ability to understand the side effects of her ideology from the perspectives of other in society.

Precisely why I'd want a range of genuinely experienced people in parliament. Ideologies applied without caution are dangerous.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

JFPC
JFPC
30 December, 2019 09:57
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
hemington
Just look at the influence 16 year old Greta has achieved (in the world). In Warrenballs World she would have to wait another 24 years before she could stand for Parliament. (And yes I know she is Swedish)

In my world too. I don't doubt the strength of conviction in her ideology. I doubt her experience, her solutions (she has none) and her ability to understand the side effects of her ideology from the perspectives of other in society.

Precisely why I'd want a range of genuinely experienced people in parliament. Ideologies applied without caution are dangerous.

I take it you haven't read much scientific literature lately.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

DanWiley
DanWiley
30 December, 2019 11:08
"we need a system that represents us much better in both houses."

Sure, but I don't think the only way to achieve that is by an election similar to our GEs. As you say, the house of commons isn't terribly representative. As I say, maybe just random selection wouldn't be the end of the world.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
30 December, 2019 18:16
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
hemington
Just look at the influence 16 year old Greta has achieved (in the world). In Warrenballs World she would have to wait another 24 years before she could stand for Parliament. (And yes I know she is Swedish)

In my world too. I don't doubt the strength of conviction in her ideology. I doubt her experience, her solutions (she has none) and her ability to understand the side effects of her ideology from the perspectives of other in society.

Precisely why I'd want a range of genuinely experienced people in parliament. Ideologies applied without caution are dangerous.

Climate change is not an ideology. The underlying principles of the science are well understood, the models predicting the extent of the outcome of the process are only going in one direction (spoiler alert - its going to happen much faster and be much worse than we thought) and the scientific community is overwhelmingly of the view that climate change is happening to us good and hard, right now.

[climate.nasa.gov]

Given this, a bit of protest seems like a rational response.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 30/12/2019 18:35 by joethefanatic.

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
30 December, 2019 18:56
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
hemington
Just look at the influence 16 year old Greta has achieved (in the world). In Warrenballs World she would have to wait another 24 years before she could stand for Parliament. (And yes I know she is Swedish)

In my world too. I don't doubt the strength of conviction in her ideology. I doubt her experience, her solutions (she has none) and her ability to understand the side effects of her ideology from the perspectives of other in society.

Precisely why I'd want a range of genuinely experienced people in parliament. Ideologies applied without caution are dangerous.

She doesn’t need a solution. She’s a 16 year old girl!
If she provides potential solutions, it leaves her open to be pulled apart.

What she is doing is staying on message, “We are destroying humanity”.

It’s a fact, all we are debating is the speed of the destruction.

J

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
30 December, 2019 19:39
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman

She doesn’t need a solution. She’s a 16 year old girl!
If she provides potential solutions, it leaves her open to be pulled apart.

What she is doing is staying on message, “We are destroying humanity”.

It’s a fact, all we are debating is the speed of the destruction.

J

Great, good for her - this is not another climate change debate. But that's why I don't want people like that in parliament.

Her conviction is unwavering, her experience and ability to effect positive outcomes is lacking. She is an effective protestor - it does not mean she we would be good at governing. She wouldn't be...

I don't want parliamentarians afraid of being pulled apart (we have too many already) and I don't want parliamentarians who are so convinced of their beliefs (and don't have the experience to know they are right) that they act in unrestrained ways.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
30 December, 2019 22:34
It's ok to be convinced you're right if you're over 40 is it? Hubris isn't exclusive to the young. Far from it.

As a side point an "ability to effect positive outcomes" isn't really a strict requisite of an MP is it? If we were talking about a cabinet post then maybe... Even then.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
31 December, 2019 10:02
Quote:
DanWiley
It's ok to be convinced you're right if you're over 40 is it? Hubris isn't exclusive to the young. Far from it.
As a side point an "ability to effect positive outcomes" isn't really a strict requisite of an MP is it? If we were talking about a cabinet post then maybe... Even then.

No, but experience is exclusive to the older and it makes better politicians. Besides, it would be hard to look at the last, and the latest, parliaments and think anything different.

Yes, it's a requisite of a parliamentarian, or what's the point. Just have the population bet for tokens and have the council appoint someone to listen to local concerns.

All Legislation passes through them. If it is to be successful it is because they have identified the ahortfalls, unintended consequences and concerns for oft-forgotten groups and raised them.

If everyone thinks the same along party lines and does have the experience to see difficulties from a position then you get bad and unjust policy and false consensus isolating elements of society.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
01 January, 2020 11:21
I can't see any evidence that older politicians are better. Could you provide some?

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
01 January, 2020 18:27
Quote:
DanWiley
I can't see any evidence that older politicians are better. Could you provide some?

I’m looking forward to Finland providing evidence to the Contrary.

[www.forbes.com]

J

JFPC
JFPC
01 January, 2020 21:47
How old is Trump?



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
02 January, 2020 09:01
Quote:
JFPC
How old is Trump?

Are we talking real age or mental age?

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
02 January, 2020 12:16
73 (3 years 6 months)

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
02 January, 2020 17:13
A petulant 12.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
03 January, 2020 18:41
And where’s the dot after Experiment called Recession or Rebellion?

Don’t think this can apply to a country. You can’t sack the public for not pulling together with the corporate line.

J

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
03 January, 2020 20:29
?

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
17 January, 2020 13:16
In response to an article in The Times about the bonging big ben fiasco, very funny:

Surely there must be some pause for thought among Brexit enthusiasts that the rest of the world will see the UK at its moment of liberation represented by a heavily-scaffolded Victorian clock which doesn't work? And which people are chipping in half a million quid for so that it can briefly be faked up to make a bonging noise to mark our leaving at midnight on Brussels' time?

gaz59
gaz59
17 January, 2020 14:41
Powerful imagery, for sure wp

Humour aside though, can anyone think of anything more gloatingly divisive at a time when Johnson, himself has said it should be a time of healing?

Surely, Johnson wasn't just saying those comforting words for Remainers without any intention of doing anything to heal the divisions and only said it off the top of his head because he thought it would sound good?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
17 January, 2020 15:31
I am afraid we can't be "healed" if we don't want to be.

gaz59
gaz59
17 January, 2020 16:28
Maybe BSJ but I would expect the Prime Minister for our country to show some emotional intelligence and sensitivity by not actively fuelling the gloating of Brexiteers with an exorbitant and unnecessary vanity project

Seems that is too much to expect with this one

DanWiley
DanWiley
17 January, 2020 16:34
I feel I have a good reason not to want to acquiesce. I'm yet to have any credible reason presented why I should want this regressive, isolationist and economically damaging idea?

The idea that you can compromise on a bad idea doesn't mean you should.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
17 January, 2020 17:17
I agree Gaz

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
17 January, 2020 17:40
[www.telegraph.co.uk] Big Ben will not Bong for Brexit - Telegraph

DanWiley
DanWiley
17 January, 2020 17:44
Surely Dyson or someone believes in this enough to bung £500k in?

I've a feeling they'll find someone, but I'm glad I'm not paying directly for it.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
17 January, 2020 17:52
76% of telegraph readers think it should bong!

I remember when the Telegraph was a serious paper

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
17 January, 2020 18:08
Look, if the Brexiters want their bong and are prepared to pay £500,000 for it, it's not going to upset me.
Just one more illustration of how Brexit was never about sense or prosperity.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
17 January, 2020 18:25
What is not made clear, in the Torygraph article, is that the House of Commons Financial Affairs Committee have said that the cost cannot be justified, as it includes rebuilding a floor that has been removed for the refurbishment, and the donations are outside financial guidelines.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
17 January, 2020 18:36
I hoped Brexit as a topic of discussion had gone away, sadly this proves it just won’t go away.

DanWiley
DanWiley
17 January, 2020 18:39
The only way I can set it going away is of its a total success. Best of luck with that.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
17 January, 2020 19:17
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
What is not made clear, in the Torygraph article, is that the House of Commons Financial Affairs Committee have said that the cost cannot be justified, as it includes rebuilding a floor that has been removed for the refurbishment, and the donations are outside financial guidelines.

[inews.co.uk] - BBBB Crowdfunding

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
17 January, 2020 20:29
Quote:
DanWiley
The only way I can set it going away is of its a total success. Best of luck with that.

That assumes their is any objective measure of success. There isn't, so it won't go away.

But I do hope the 'look how stupid a majority of the population are' arguments go away.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

John Tee
John Tee
18 January, 2020 05:28
Happy that the Commitee has ruled it is an inappropriate spend....now , what else can they detemine is inappropriate...their expense package, for example.

If crowdfunding want to go ahead, not got a problem with that.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
30 January, 2020 17:10
received this, £5 to wipe my ar$e on is a little pricey




You Got Brexit Done. Now here’s your chance to own it.

Win a copy of Brexit signed by the Prime Minister.

Enter to Win
www.conservatives.com/own-brexit

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Entries to the competition are £5 each. So James, do you want to give yourself the best chance to own Brexit?

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The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 is the law that got Brexit done and will allow us to unleash Britain’s potential.

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So James, do you want to be the person who can say they own Brexit:

MESSAGES->author
hemington
30 January, 2020 18:57
So a Party can 'sell' Government documents - bit strange.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
30 January, 2020 23:14
They are probably leaflets left over from the 'Leave' campaign - nothing to get excited about.

Think the best thing for us all is to keep our heads down over the next couple of years as it all starts to go pearshaped for those without megamillion financial investments on currency fluctuations.

So many issues not being addressed or steps taken as they steam down the track towards us all.
e.g Northern Ireland borders, shortage of lower paid farming/horticultural workers, those willing to work long hours in poor conditions making sandwiches etc, . shortage of certain medicines (already pharmacies are struggling to get supplies of some medicines from European producers) - so don't say you havn't been warned.
Just a little gem= did you know that all our toilet paper is made in Europe?

Do hope that Nigel F has got himself a nice cosy bolthole somewhere in the US and joins Trump's campaign machine Fat chance!

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
31 January, 2020 07:42
Quote:
annie blackthorn
...shortage of lower paid farming/horticultural workers, those willing to work long hours in poor conditions making sandwiches etc,

Wow, that's a misanthropic take of what your fellow citizens should do for you and a rather apathetic (imperialist?) view of the contributions our EU residents should make.

Yes, I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that people didn't vote for this...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
31 January, 2020 08:00
I get my monogrammed bog roll from Nova, made in Lancashire. It’s hung under a sign saying ‘Get Wiping Done’

[novatissue.co.uk]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
31 January, 2020 09:48
Annie you are completely wrong on toilet paper!!!

There is a company called Accrol plc based in Blackburn who manufacture a hell of a lot of toilet tissue!

If you were a manufacturer of toilet roll in France, Germany, Spain, Italy could you please explain to me why you would not wish to continue maintaining supply to your existing UK customers?

Periodically, as I am sure you know with your medical background, over the past say 25 years there have been shortages of certain drugs..........it is a fact of life.

If the drugs are available can you tell me why the European drug suppliers would not supply the UK given they make very, very high gross margins on supply?

I understand that OUR NHS are in fact quite robust in buying drugs and drive a hard bargain so I could sort of understand that a drug company who wanted to maximise profits might supply a drug in short supply to the organisations who paid the most.

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 January, 2020 10:12
I suspect Accrol and Nova are going to be disproportionately hurt by the barriers that the government are now saying ARE going to be there in accessing the 500 million EU market than an equivalent EU company who will still have access to the 500 million.

Given the strength of their market, the EU company will survive and overcome the barriers to reach us. Accrol/Nova on the other hand will struggle in the larger market and may well not make enough from the domestic market to maintain a viable business. Both currently rely on EU market access.

Just one industry, this will be repeated across the country.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
31 January, 2020 10:57
Importing toilet rolls is stupid, bulky product, its not environmentally sensible either. Green issues will increasingly begin to affect international trade. Recycle!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 January, 2020 11:10
Maybe, but rightly or wrongly EU wide distribution IS a big part of those companies and, the real point is, this is just a small example.

"Green issues will increasingly begin to affect international trade."

I suspect that more environmentally sensitive transport will be the solution we opt for rather than local production.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
31 January, 2020 11:26
Quote:
shipwrecked
Importing toilet rolls is stupid, bulky product, its not environmentally sensible either. Green issues will increasingly begin to affect international trade. Recycle!

Although I agree with the sentiment, I think recycling toilet paper is a step too far..

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
31 January, 2020 11:34
Quote:
shipwrecked
Importing toilet rolls is stupid, bulky product, its not environmentally sensible either. Green issues will increasingly begin to affect international trade. Recycle!

Yep recycle use the Guardian! winking smiley



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

Man from LA
Man from LA
31 January, 2020 12:14
I use this:

[www.ebay.co.uk]

I would get one with toad-face on but I can't find any (yet).

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
31 January, 2020 13:02
I love the clarity of vision you have DW

Accrol is in fact 96% UK sales as Shipwrecked says above the product does not travel well

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
31 January, 2020 13:12
Quote:
annie blackthorn
shortage of lower paid farming/horticultural workers, those willing to work long hours in poor conditions making sandwiches etc,

According to the ONS for September to November 2019, an estimated 1.31 million people were unemployed. Think we have enough people who should be made to fill the possible shortage.

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 January, 2020 13:56
From the Nova site linked above:

"a family-run UK manufacturer of good value, high quality toilet tissue and kitchen towel for retailers and wholesalers across Europe."

Apparently, we import 1.1m tonnes of the 1.3m we use. I'll stand by " EU wide distribution IS a big part of those companies", but most of all "Just one industry, this will be repeated across the country."

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
31 January, 2020 14:46
Quote:
DanWiley
Given the strength of their market, the EU company will survive and overcome the barriers to reach us. Accrol/Nova on the other hand will struggle in the larger market and may well not make enough from the domestic market to maintain a viable business. Both currently rely on EU market access.


I'm not convinced by the argument the EU companies are ok to lose large proportions of their customers because of the strength of the EU market. It's not like they're diverting toilet paper (or many other products) away from Spain to Britain. Likewise most businesses are sized to their market needs.

They can't just realign to domestic markets or fill the gaps that might be created by the loss of British supply. Nor would companies like Wepa, or their customers (and their consumers), consider abandoning established brands.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 January, 2020 15:11
It will initially be mildly uncomfortable for the European companies no doubt. But that hardship is many times magnified for British companies. EU companies are losing 60m customers, we'd be losing 500m.

If that hardship leads to British business becoming insolvent then the hardship for the EU companies is diminished further as we're like to end up buying their products anyway, only they'll be more expensive.

The economic argument for leaving just doesn't stack up. So enjoy your sovereignty, whatever that brings you, by the looks of it, being bullied by America.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
31 January, 2020 15:53
I fail to see why this continues to be so contentious, I've read one poster say keep you head down and wait for it to all go wrong, now I hear "enjoy the sovereignty" for what its worth. I even heard one woman was going to refuse to accept Brexit 50p in her change.
Industry adapts all the time on both sides. If the right deal is done European toilet roll makers can still export to the UK even if the price changes.

If not, then no problem there are plenty in Brussels that are so full of **** anyway they will use up the surplus!

Dan, you might not find the last bit funny, its not meant to be offensive, just a joke!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
31 January, 2020 16:20
No offense taken in the last comment. Though I don't feel our politicians can claim the high ground.

There's some silly things being done on both sides, the BBC have someone trying to burn an EU flag.

I don't think you should dismiss my point though. Sovereignty was a big thing people wanted, but I'm not sure they really know what they mean or, if they do, what it will actually bring THEM. 4 years ago few could have named a trade deal that we enjoyed. Now people are going on about how we'll be able sign our own easily and that's going to be a great personal benefit to them. They've clearly little experience of trade deals nor an appreciation the situation they've just lost. We're already being bullied by the US, China and the EU (plus others) to follow. We are now rule takers AND have no say in the rules.

I'm yet to have someone explain a tangible way that brexit will benefit me (and I can't see how it benefits the overwhelming majority). So what an Earth are they celebrating?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
31 January, 2020 16:35
I agree celebrating is childish. Hopefully America will get a leader with a moral compass this year.

I accept your point but I do feel European business including the UK is due a reset in terms of moving products needlessly.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

warrenball
warrenball
31 January, 2020 17:40
I heard a radio programme talking about how the NHS was trying to make medical language more clearly understandable by the general population which they said was necessary as the average reading age in the UK was that of an average 10 year old - not even a particularly bright one!

No wonder the politicians use the language they do or that so many people are happy to get their news on social media and believe it.

MESSAGES->author
Which Tyler
31 January, 2020 19:19
Not looking forward to tomorrow.
On my way to work I got asked " When are you planning on ducking off then?"

My day did not feel brightened by the encounter!



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
31 January, 2020 21:07
Quote:
DanWiley
I don't think you should dismiss my point though. Sovereignty was a big thing people wanted, but I'm not sure they really know what they mean or, if they do, what it will actually bring THEM. 4 years ago few could have named a trade deal that we enjoyed. Now people are going on about how we'll be able sign our own easily and that's going to be a great personal benefit to them. They've clearly little experience of trade deals nor an appreciation the situation they've just lost. We're already being bullied by the US, China and the EU (plus others) to follow. We are now rule takers AND have no say in the rules.

I get there are a lot of unknowns... But the rest is your personal expectations based on something, you imply, nobody in this country knows a lot about or needs to. Either you were a trade expert all those years ago or you muddling through like most of the rest of us.

Heck, I work in trade regulations and I couldn't say with any certainty what will happen. But we will absolutely have gained sovereignty and there is no other trade deal, in existence, that surrenders as much sovereignty as the one we had. We're unlikely to exceed it. Indeed, how could we exceed EU membership - both the positive and the negative.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
31 January, 2020 21:09
Quote:
DanWiley
I'm yet to have someone explain a tangible way that brexit will benefit me (and I can't see how it benefits the overwhelming majority). So what an Earth are they celebrating?

I'm proud this country proved that our decision at the ballot box is too important to be overridden. The relentless drip drip to overturn the result - which would have been the easy way out - were rejected. That took balls and it's hard to imagine any other European country doing the same.

Even the messiness of the process just showed there is life in our democratic process. Unlike many countries, we've not yet surrendered to technocratic rule because we can't imagine anything different. We didn't accept that what those in power say must be meekly followed.

And the degree of engagement was and still is significant, even from those on the losing side. There is no other European election that has generated anything like the same engagement and or has asked the difficult questions anything like as well as us.

I'm glad we did. It bodes well for us.

Man from LA
Man from LA
31 January, 2020 21:21
I thought brexit was idiotic enough but Jim Davidson unveiling a portrait of Fartage says it all. I bet Nige had a good old laugh at Davidson doing his Chalky White impressions. When the country is becoming what people like Davidson wants it to be, a bitter, delusional, insular nation with imagined victimhood, then you know it's going to end badly. At least now they won't be able to blame the EU or mainland European ex-pats for any of this countries problems (not that it won't stop them trying), it'll be on them.

John Tee
John Tee
31 January, 2020 21:38
what a cheery spin.. do keep trying to perpetuate division.
Most people have accepted the U.K is leaving...or in just over an hr, has left.

gaz59
gaz59
31 January, 2020 23:23
To coin a phrase, we will be back

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
31 January, 2020 23:33
Hope not in my lifetime. Britain will in time be Great again.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

Man from LA
Man from LA
31 January, 2020 23:35
grinning smiley

[twitter.com]

(it's daft granted, but no dafter than the people who set off fireworks celebrating that they will be poorer)

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 February, 2020 00:19
Quote:
Man from LA
grinning smiley
[twitter.com]

(it's daft granted, but no dafter than the people who set off fireworks celebrating that they will be poorer)

This thread avoided being offensive for the whole 3 years of the Brexit debate up till now!

Has Johnson reinstated land mine use, banned muslims from entering the UK, denied climate change, asked another country to investigate his political rivals, ridiculed the handicapped........ need I go on!

It may benefit your argument to want them to be similar but they are not. Portrayals like that are Trumpian misdirection. They are not alike.
By all means continue to sow the seeds of negative division but I'm reminded of a lyric, "the strong give up and move on but the weak give up and stay".

As for being bullied, if that were true would Huawei be installing 5G hardware in the UK.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 February, 2020 07:28
Time to close the thread!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

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