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DanWiley
DanWiley
06 February, 2020 09:17
It's still going to be cheaper to buy from Europe with trade barriers than any other country also with barriers. The £70 billion isn't going to go anywhere, at worst it will be eroded somewhat by competition.

On the other hand, what I'm seeing, is companies moving work/production to the EU from the UK because there they get access to the bigger market barrier free. Both the company I used to work for and, to a much greater extent, the company that have acquired them have done this.

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 February, 2020 09:20
"Dear Dan............sorry to disillusion you but I do believe it."

In which case what do you mean by it? Because most people see the term as a joke.

gaz59
gaz59
06 February, 2020 09:52
And let's not get blinded by this £70bn deficit figure. It is not £70bn of trade we simply pocket and go somewhere else.

It is a nett figure. If we simply walked away where would we be able to simply find a substitute market for the £290bn we send to them

No doubt German car producers are worried about a no deal scenario but then so should every single one of our businesses that is wrapped up in that £290 billion

And yes, the EU market may be a declining % of world trade but it is a slow trend, will take many years before the balance is of any real significance and is no comfort to those whose jobs rely on EU trade now to be told "don't worry because in 20 years time our trade with China and SE Asia, Australia and the Faroe Islands etc possibly could be more than the EU"

John Tee
John Tee
06 February, 2020 14:38
Sounds like a nett gain to me, but sure, the german car makers should be very worried or rather VW/Audi mostly.
The higher end still has cache but VW is in sight of the far east makers and if i were buying VW wouldnt be a target..
i dont think their product has traditional germanic'quality' or premium anymore..

It would be convenient to just get a free trade deal, with the required alignment for those markets etc etc.....but you need to get past the political requirements and that is largely for the eu to square, imv

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
06 February, 2020 14:48
Aah the German car makers, the italian prosseco makers, the dutch clog makers, the belgian waffle makers, the french cheese makers, the grecian grease makers.

I haven't heard that old chestnut for years....

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 February, 2020 15:32
"Sounds like a nett gain to me"

But that's missing the point that barriers on a £290bn market is bad for us. It's something like 45% of our exports. Barriers on £350bn market (8%) won't be great for them, but that doesn't make it ANY better for us.

Moreover they can live with barriers on that 8%, barriers on that 45% are going to really hurt us.

Finally, those barriers are already attracting business to them from us, so they have a silver lining to their 8%.

It's a lose lose situation, but we're the biggest loser.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
06 February, 2020 16:14
Dear Dan

Its deja vu all over again with you and I probably going back to pages 3 to 10 of this thread!

From my simple straw poll of some 200 companies with market value of £30m to £5bn in which we are invested in a handful want the hardest Brexit possible, Chinese/Vietnamese/Far East production and all sales in UK........so very simple for them.

Everyone else neutral to we'd rather have the status quo because that is what we are used to and anything but the protectionist EU is a bit of a faff, but.............(and here you won't believe me because it does not mirror your views) its no big deal.

HOWEVER we are not invested in UK farmers, pharma, or aerospace.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
06 February, 2020 16:16
Not quite sure how the generally very detailed people on this Board managed it but the deficit with our trade partners in the EU is £90bn and our surplus with the USA is £70bn.

John Tee
John Tee
06 February, 2020 16:32
it gets rounded down...of course..:lol:

And of course, there will be plenty of countries looking to pick up trade. That is the danger for anyone. Some countries will find alternatives more easily that others.
As a large buying economy, that makes us more attractive....
Likewise, im sure other euro countries will look to replace our goods with zero tarfiff products.

So it rather makes sense for the EU to do that....but they have polticsl considerstions over riding that, imv...and they regard that as more important. It is keeping countries onboard with EU dogma that could be sticky...

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
06 February, 2020 16:40
Dan whilst your simplistic approach is very compelling analysis has been done as to where our deficit is with the EU and it is highly focused in a few regions of a few countries.........ie more impact than you might at first think.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
06 February, 2020 17:51
Quote:
John Tee
It is keeping countries onboard with EU dogma that could be sticky...

As opposed to Brexit dogma of course.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
06 February, 2020 18:08
Quote:
John Tee
It is keeping countries onboard with EU dogma that could be sticky...

As opposed to Brexit dogma of course.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
06 February, 2020 18:51
The problem is BSJ polarisation of this issue is being carried on regardless of the fact that we are where we are. We have been through the same ground ad nauseam for 3+ years and frankly It is all very repetitive and I find it very disturbing that some are still predicting a catastrophe. I wanted to remain but accept the situation we are in and am desperate to do what little I can to make it work. I thought it would be a catastrophe but have been comforted by the buoyant market and general confidence levels so have changed my mind.

As I understand it we already trade on WTO terms to the extent of 40% and another 11% to non EU countries with EU trade deals. 20 of these deals have been rolled on and secured representing 75% of the 11% or around 8%. Noted in this list is Switzerland, Norway, South Africa and South Korea.

The risk is therefore with the EU 49% of our trade. I am sure common sense will prevail to ensure their market is secured in UK and vice versa. Any deals with US and Canada and Commonwealth Countries will be key to success. I am comforted by the fact that all countries want to trade with us.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 February, 2020 19:57
Very true CC, the problem for me is that because there was so much 'project fear type information' kicking around during the initial Brexit negotiations. It is now impossible to take some of the information relating to this phase seriously. Its a 'cry wolf' situation.

Many remainers are very reluctant to move on because of a fear that they might be proven wrong. Bizarrely many arguments that are being used to confirm failure are that for example we don't maintain control of our fishing rights.

Isn't negotiation about giving away percentages of some of these resources in order to gain ground in other areas?

True entrepreneurs will take advantage of whatever the conditions of trade are, personally and ironically I find the desire to restrict our trade to Europe a 'conservative' one.

I would much prefer the energy being thrown into the Brexit argument to be applied to pursuing climate change which is a far far greater threat both economically and socially.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 February, 2020 20:28
"I find it very disturbing that some are still predicting a catastrophe. I wanted to remain but accept the situation we are in and am desperate to do what little I can to make it work. "

You can do all you can to make a success of a situation, I've got to, I've little choice, but still think the best you can achieve is to make the most of a catastrophe.

"Many remainers are very reluctant to move on because of a fear that they might be proven wrong. "

I think this is wrong. Things will move on regardless of whether remainders are reluctant or not. What would them moving on achieve? Nothing.

"ironically I find the desire to restrict our trade to Europe a 'conservative' one."

You realise we had trade deals with places pursue the EU through the EU? Most of our current trade is with the EU so it is critical that isn't harmed. That's why it is the priority.

warrenball
warrenball
06 February, 2020 20:51
I buy and sell to countries in the EU and we will still be trading regardless of the results of the talks. Most businesses regard governments as an unfortunate nuisance and accept because of the decision to leave some things will change but the two businesses on either end of each transaction will try very hard to still trade. In these matters it is never as bad as the doom mongers predict or as good as the optimists expect, we will end up somewhere in the middle.

Having said that business with reasonably high gross profit margins can be far more relaxed, it is a very different case for marginal businesses like some farmers and there will always be some for whom it is disastrous. Unfortunately the people making all the decisions have the benefit of Government gold plated pensions to fall back on so why should they worry?

MESSAGES->author
hemington
06 February, 2020 21:44
Not to forget their extra curricula activities.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
06 February, 2020 22:47
Quote:
DanWiley
You can do all you can to make a success of a situation, I've got to, I've little choice, but still think the best you can achieve is to make the most of a catastrophe.

That is the issue, Dan, you are approaching Brexit from a prospective of it being a catastrophe, I am approaching it from the prospective of It being a challenge and a new way of forging relationships with Europe and the rest of the World. I understand and agreed with your misgivings but we have to now face reality and forge a different future.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
06 February, 2020 23:16
What Mr CC says!

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
07 February, 2020 08:37
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
DanWiley
You can do all you can to make a success of a situation, I've got to, I've little choice, but still think the best you can achieve is to make the most of a catastrophe.

That is the issue, Dan, you are approaching Brexit from a prospective of it being a catastrophe, I am approaching it from the prospective of It being a challenge and a new way of forging relationships with Europe and the rest of the World. I understand and agreed with your misgivings but we have to now face reality and forge a different future.

Good CC, I agree.

(At the same time being a pointless waste of time, effort and money....)

gaz59
gaz59
07 February, 2020 09:40
Yep agree with that, not a catastrophe but a pointless challenge and a waste of time, money and effort in forging relationships with Europe and the rest of the world

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
07 February, 2020 10:14
It seems from the above that many see the EU and Brexit in the simple quantifiable terms of trade and finance.

Sad really. Nothing about the environmental cooperation, the scientific research projects which have been ditched because half the terms (give or take) were made up of European nationals, let alone the ceasing of Erasmus (you know, the student education thingy).

Still on we go - moving ourselves to alignment/attachment with the US. You know the place - the one where the majority of its citizens don't really know where Europe ( or anywhere else in the world is} is let alone the UK, where most don't give a stuff about climate change or anything else much as long as they have Trump and co telling them how great they are.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
07 February, 2020 10:14
It seems from the above that many see the EU and Brexit in the simple quantifiable terms of trade and finance.

Sad really. Nothing about the environmental cooperation, the scientific research projects which have been ditched because half the terms (give or take) were made up of European nationals, let alone the ceasing of Erasmus (you know, the student education thingy).

Still on we go - moving ourselves to alignment/attachment with the US. You know the place - the one where the majority of its citizens don't really know where Europe ( or anywhere else in the world is} is let alone the UK, where most don't give a stuff about climate change or anything else much as long as they have Trump and co telling them how great they are.

gaz59
gaz59
07 February, 2020 11:00
Completely with you there Annie, Brexit can only move us in one direction and that is fewer and weaker ties and contacts with our European friends on many important things in life other than trade and money

And the obvious pull closer under Trump's seductive arm is a cause of sadness and deep concern

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
07 February, 2020 11:03
Bit OT but if you want to criticise Boris for anything, his complacent response to Coronavirus is his biggest failure.

DanWiley
DanWiley
07 February, 2020 13:26
Really? 600 have died of Coronavirus worldwide, 600 died of flu in the uk on average, 1700 die on our roads.

I'd be far more worried about his attempt to roll the free press.

gaz59
gaz59
07 February, 2020 14:52
I think Johnson's bigger failure than his Coronavirus response was to put Pudsey Hancock in charge of Health

There are quite a few hopeless brown-nosers on the front bench but Hancock is the most hopeless, browniest of brown-nosers

But Annie, in my view does have a really good point and it all points to Johnson's short term populist strategy - there are precious few votes in the cultural side of politics

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
07 February, 2020 17:58
Quote:
annie blackthorn
It seems from the above that many see the EU and Brexit in the simple quantifiable terms of trade and finance.

This is exactly what the Brexiteers were saying!

Oh...

Quote:
annie blackthorn
Sad really. Nothing about the environmental cooperation, the scientific research projects which have been ditched because half the terms (give or take) were made up of European nationals, let alone the ceasing of Erasmus (you know, the student education thingy).

We're way ahead of most European countries on the environment, the second part is just made up and it is an objective of government to negotiate the third part. I also think the ability of graduates to subsidized travel for a year really shouldn't be one of our priorities and probably didn't even factor in working class areas.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

John Tee
John Tee
07 February, 2020 19:03
If its a good idea, nothing to stop us adopting it into legislation...

The one thing that is non returnable is the Poltical Union.
Once we work out what we want to keep, we can continue partnerships if they are benificial.
Ive never understood why we had to do it under political union and even the treaties seemed more of a way of keeping countries tied in ...
This is borne out by how hard it appears to extradite ourselves.
Anyone would think countries arent free to leave...?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
07 February, 2020 20:13
Dear Dan

It was your comment below referring to "it"

"The EU know Singapore and they know Britain. They know Singapore on thames isn't going to happen and they know we lose out far now than they do from no deal.

As you say, we can but wait and see what happens, but I don't think even you believe it."

We can very easily move to a low tax tax approach as culturally that has been much more the UK approach than the European one. as was highlighted on the Election Thread.

It is interesting that Ireland started charging very low taxes to Apple and were then told by the EU that they had to charge more.............however if the UK is not in the EU and reduces corporation tax to say 12% how will the EU respond?

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
07 February, 2020 22:39
The Bear - I do wish you wouldn't be so very rude and dismissive of opinions which do not coincide with your own very blinkered from a safe distance as an ex-pat i.e. you do not live and work in the UK, views. I do wonder who you are interacting with, whether you ever meet those outside your own very closed circle of ex-pats. Do you exchange ideas, or have your views challenged? It seems not. Not that I care.

DanWiley
DanWiley
07 February, 2020 23:38
There's a hell of a lot more to Singapore's economic position than lower tax, we can't adopt that sort of position without putting the rest of this country's industry in a very dark place.

We're just not the same, as a seconds glance at our economies and demographics would tell you.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
08 February, 2020 09:42
It is a state of mind thing and political and journalistic short hand Mr Wiley.

I actually know quite a bit about Singapore and by no means would I wish to embrace all aspects of their life/economy.

I suspect that this is the nub of the difference between people who WISHED to remain in the EU and those who supported leaving.

The economic and social approach espoused by the failed Labour Manifesto, which a number of people on 'ere argued on the election thread was in line or indeed more modest than many member countries of the EU, or, the "Singapore" approach.

DanWiley
DanWiley
09 February, 2020 01:33
"It is a state of mind thing and political and journalistic short hand Mr Wiley."

I agree. It's bs.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
09 February, 2020 09:37
Quote:
annie blackthorn
The Bear - I do wish you wouldn't be so very rude and dismissive of opinions which do not coincide with your own very blinkered from a safe distance as an ex-pat i.e. you do not live and work in the UK, views. I do wonder who you are interacting with, whether you ever meet those outside your own very closed circle of ex-pats. Do you exchange ideas, or have your views challenged? It seems not. Not that I care.

Annie, I live in London (come home most weekends), where most of my friends have a typically London viewpoint, and I work in Brussels, most often with officials (UK and European) from the EU commission, which is not exactly a hotbed of Euroscepticism. It's not like I live in Hawaii or any other none EU state where it genuinely would have little impact... And so what if I did?

Still, it's kind of sweet that you're concerned I'm not exposed to alternative viewpoints but I can assure you, if there is any view I'm underexposed to it is the Eurosceptic one...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
09 February, 2020 10:06
The UK is not way ahead on the Environment - almost all of the Regulations have been transposed from the Directives without much (if any) additional measures. Then add that we are failing miserably on things like air quality where we are just muddling through until cleaner cars are adopted. All of these new CAZ Policies were only a result of pressure from organisations like ClientEarth. Similarly are only now taking the impact on European designated sites (and requirement for Appropriate Assessment) more seriously after legal cases like People over Wind and the Dutch Nitrogen case.

I canít see much changing in terms of the Policy despite the initial high level promises issues with the first reading of the Environment Bill on 30th January. One of the main reasons is that most of the measures for protection of the environment conflict with cost effective development that appears to be the main goal of the Politicians (greens aside obvs).



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

DanWiley
DanWiley
10 February, 2020 19:31
"Of course we'll still be able to trade freely with the EU if we vote leave... Though with friction, lots and lots of friction." Gove, though in fairness that ellipsis represents nearly four years.

Do you still not feel lied to? Not even a little bit?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
10 February, 2020 19:46
So, strike frictionless trade with the EU off the list of promises kept.

[www.theguardian.com]

My prediction is that the UK fishing industry will be next under the Brexit bus. Although, if you analyse who the majority of the "UK fishing industry" actually are, they're a bunch of non-British multinationals.

The environmentally friendly in-shore boats (which I would be very much in favour of being given much stronger protections) make up a tiny fraction of the total catch. They're the ones who are going to get royally screwed because the market for their fresh catch is in the EU and the new paperwork will destroy their just-in-time model.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2020 19:52 by joethefanatic.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
10 February, 2020 19:50
Quote:
DanWiley
"Of course we'll still be able to trade freely with the EU if we vote leave... Though with friction, lots and lots of friction." Gove, though in fairness that ellipsis represents nearly four years.
Do you still not feel lied to? Not even a little bit?

Iím lied to on a daily basis by our politicians, little I can do about it so whatís the point of getting all bent out of shape?

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
10 February, 2020 19:58
Heard the one about the PM who decided it would be a good idea to build a bridge between 2 (future?) EU countries, and foot the bill with UK taxpayer donations? [www.bbc.co.uk]

DanWiley
DanWiley
10 February, 2020 20:14
"Iím lied to on a daily basis by our politicians, little I can do about it so whatís the point of getting all bent out of shape?"

Ah, but it seems you believed them this time. Or have your always known brexit makes little sense but for some reason argued for it for many years?

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
10 February, 2020 20:55
Quote:
DanWiley
"Iím lied to on a daily basis by our politicians, little I can do about it so whatís the point of getting all bent out of shape?"
Ah, but it seems you believed them this time. Or have your always known brexit makes little sense but for some reason argued for it for many years?

Anyone could see both sides were not being honest, but I sided towards leaving for my own reasons and thought it was worth a go. If it doesn't work so be it, I'm certainly not going to lose sleep every time Boris breaks a promise.

DanWiley
DanWiley
11 February, 2020 08:26
The thing is every leave lie that is exposed indicates that remain weren't lying.

As it stands the only flat out lie I can see that remain told was that the day after the vote everything would be bad. That was always a stupid thing to say as a moment's thought, and certainly the ensuing 3 years, makes clear. Otherwise most elements of "project fear" have already show to have elements of truth to them.

warrenball
warrenball
11 February, 2020 08:46
Dan, as a businessman we are used to putting up with useless government schemes run by often second rate civil servants and Brexit will be just another one of those. Just look at the range of government departments and try to find one properly run, defence, home office, treasury, health, transport, education - all a mess and always will be. The problem is government is too big, out of control and unfortunately growing.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
11 February, 2020 09:29
Quote:
DanWiley
The thing is every leave lie that is exposed indicates that remain weren't lying.
As it stands the only flat out lie I can see that remain told was that the day after the vote everything would be bad. That was always a stupid thing to say as a moment's thought, and certainly the ensuing 3 years, makes clear. Otherwise most elements of "project fear" have already show to have elements of truth to them.

OK lets say everything that leave said was a lie and the remain side were entirely telling the truth, so what? The leave team therefor duped the country and we have left the EU, nothing you or I can do about it now so no point complaining.

Maybe we would have been better to stay in and bring down the EU in it's current form from within, but we'll never no now.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
11 February, 2020 10:55
yes well said Outside Bath.

Pretty much everything the Leave campaign said was a lie or to be generous, a misunderstanding, but that's history. Remainers rubbing Leavers' noses in that doesn't help. Eventually everyone will realise it's a massive pain in the ar$e for little/no benefit.

But let's make the most of it, we've made our bed we need to lie in it.

DanWiley
DanWiley
11 February, 2020 11:00
So, if Corbyn had got in and the worst that was said of him was true and he'd just got there by lying to everyone, you'd turn around and go "fair play, nothing I can do about it, I guess I'll join the communist party."?

WB, surely you see the difference in scale here? I mean because of brexit 100s of billions of £ of assets (it's getting close to a trillion) have already been moved out of British banks, and that's just one aspect: our aerospace and automotive industries, to name just a couple, are both in a bad place. We've binned a fantastic trading position, both with the EU and through the EU's trade deals, to start again as a weaker entity.

That's a little beyond the general governmental size and incompetence and, in any case, its on top of it.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
11 February, 2020 11:25
Quote:
DanWiley
So, if Corbyn had got in and the worst that was said of him was true and he'd just got there by lying to everyone, you'd turn around and go "fair play, nothing I can do about it, I guess I'll join the communist party."?
WB, surely you see the difference in scale here? I mean because of brexit 100s of billions of £ of assets (it's getting close to a trillion) have already been moved out of British banks, and that's just one aspect: our aerospace and automotive industries, to name just a couple, are both in a bad place. We've binned a fantastic trading position, both with the EU and through the EU's trade deals, to start again as a weaker entity.

That's a little beyond the general governmental size and incompetence and, in any case, its on top of it.

Dan, try and look on the bright side, you will be able to buy two bottles of duty free wine, you will have to queue at EU borders, but your passport will be blue and you will be able to have more dangerous cars, eat carcinogenic food and our white goods will be able to give us electric shocks.

Who knows in the future we might even see the return of rickets!

What's not to like? Get over it! You lost!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
11 February, 2020 11:32
Quote:
DanWiley
So, if Corbyn had got in and the worst that was said of him was true and he'd just got there by lying to everyone, you'd turn around and go "fair play, nothing I can do about it, I guess I'll join the communist party."?

Well I certainly wouldn't still be moaning about it because there is nothing I could have done about it, but equally I would already be living outside of the UK by now if he had got in.

MESSAGES->author
Rawce
11 February, 2020 12:04
Quote:
OutsideBath
Well I certainly wouldn't still be moaning about it because there is nothing I could have done about it.
98% of your posts on 'ERE would disagree.

DanWiley
DanWiley
11 February, 2020 12:05
So, when Blair got in or had his war or whatever (I'm guessing he did SOMETHING you objected to), your response was to either:

- Leave the country?
- Not mention your objection to it?

Neither action seems that positive to me but you didn't, for example, discuss the way his government was going on a local rugby forum?

warrenball
warrenball
11 February, 2020 13:36
Dan, I know I am not going to change your mind but even as a remainer I do not see the disaster you suggest. If anything it will be a slow eroding of our position in the world but that has been happening for very many years. Although you dismiss the efficiency of the government I really worry that we have probably the worst collection of MP's ever who are far more worried about quotas and keeping minority groups happy than finding intelligent experienced people and that is reflected throughout the public sector.

DanWiley
DanWiley
11 February, 2020 14:20
We'll have to see, but from my perspective brexit has very much accelerated our downward trajectory, I mean look at the money that's already left our country, we've not had great government for decades but they'e never achieved that. Whereas there's no reason to think the EU won't be a large player on the world scene for the foreseeable future. It can hold its own with the US and China, in a way that the UK just can't.

We could have been an influential part of that, instead we decided to throw our toys out of the pram because Great Britain long since lost its status as a super power and we're still struggling to come to terms with that.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
11 February, 2020 14:36
Dear Dan

I am going to continue posting on 'ere, indeed as I have just done on the Dai Young thread.

However finally I admit defeat to you on this thread.

Whilst I do not accept your views and as I repeat often, see no evidence whatsoever in my world of your views, indeed in a number of situations something of the opposite I am afraid we are never going to move on and so I shall duck out of this particular thread.

I will keep reading it and will continue to be interested in the various views expressed.....so I will become a "lurker"!

In one, three, five years or more I shall return to this thread (which I am certain will still be going!) and as time passes we will see whether you are right or wrong...........even (which I strongly doubt) if things in the future can be explained away by Leaving or had we Remained.

Finally I will say as my final comment on this thread my view is that Leaving will in fact be largely neutral with some positive benefits in time. However Remaining in the EU will itself become much more tricky in the future and I believe we will in time..........three to five years, be very glad we left the moribund superstate which will be progressively move to a bad place.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
11 February, 2020 14:39
Quote:
DanWiley
We could have been an influential part of that, instead we decided to throw our toys out of the pram because Great Britain long since lost its status as a super power and we're still struggling to come to terms with that.

Mate, how many voters do you think were alive during the meaningful period of empire? Hardly any.

How many voters completely avoided the Pre-Blair years when we significantly less successful on the economic front (in 1997 we overtook Italy's economy)?

It's only voters since that period who have had it 'so good' (macroeconomic and 'soft power'-wise) and yet they predominantly voted Remain.

It is Remainers who constantly fetishize 'global power', empire and speak in terms of decline. (Meanwhile they think that we could make a significant difference in areas such as environmentalism - you can't have it both ways).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
11 February, 2020 15:32
"Mate, how many voters do you think were alive during the meaningful period of empire? Hardly any."

Britain's decline has been long a steady and the national perception of it lags behind. Indeed in some aspects we do still demand a place at the top table: we are a large economy and we are a nuclear power. We have those two "floating conference centres", that's more than most. So many people in the leave voting demographic have lived through the, albeit declining (and that's the problem), benefits of Britain's past status.

In any case, there can be no doubt that the rhetoric coming out of the likes of Boris, Gove, Farrage, JRM was intended to play up to the nations sense of pride, what has been perceived to be lost and what we could have again if only we "Believed in Britain".

"It is Remainers who constantly fetishize 'global power', empire and speak in terms of decline. (Meanwhile they think that we could make a significant difference in areas such as environmentalism - you can't have it both ways)."

This just isn't true. Come on, find examples of remainers "fetishize 'global power'". Sure we have more world wide influence in the EU, that's not a fetish. We would be able to have more influence on areas such as environmentalism in the EU, because outside of it we can do F-all.

John Tee
John Tee
11 February, 2020 18:39
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Dear Dan
I am going to continue posting on 'ere, indeed as I have just done on the Dai Young thread.

However finally I admit defeat to you on this thread.

Whilst I do not accept your views and as I repeat often, see no evidence whatsoever in my world of your views, indeed in a number of situations something of the opposite I am afraid we are never going to move on and so I shall duck out of this particular thread.

I will keep reading it and will continue to be interested in the various views expressed.....so I will become a "lurker"!

In one, three, five years or more I shall return to this thread (which I am certain will still be going!) and as time passes we will see whether you are right or wrong...........even (which I strongly doubt) if things in the future can be explained away by Leaving or had we Remained.

Finally I will say as my final comment on this thread my view is that Leaving will in fact be largely neutral with some positive benefits in time. However Remaining in the EU will itself become much more tricky in the future and I believe we will in time..........three to five years, be very glad we left the moribund superstate which will be progressively move to a bad place.

Wow, i've admired your patience.. I long ago stopped replying to someone who could have an arguement with himself...and keep it going for ages.

Ever deeper poltical union was always the dealbreaker...so leaving was always inevitable.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
11 February, 2020 19:48
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
DanWiley
We could have been an influential part of that, instead we decided to throw our toys out of the pram because Great Britain long since lost its status as a super power and we're still struggling to come to terms with that.

Mate, how many voters do you think were alive during the meaningful period of empire? Hardly any.

How many voters completely avoided the Pre-Blair years when we significantly less successful on the economic front (in 1997 we overtook Italy's economy)?

It's only voters since that period who have had it 'so good' (macroeconomic and 'soft power'-wise) and yet they predominantly voted Remain.

It is Remainers who constantly fetishize 'global power', empire and speak in terms of decline. (Meanwhile they think that we could make a significant difference in areas such as environmentalism - you can't have it both ways).

So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".

The next year is where the Brexit rubber hits the road and I'm betting the first thing that rubber does is a series of screeching U turns as it becomes clear just how disastrous this is all going to be. We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.

I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2020 22:27 by joethefanatic.

DanWiley
DanWiley
11 February, 2020 22:18
"I long ago stopped replying to someone who could have an arguement with himself"

Really? When have I been inconsistent with myself? I mean I'm happy for you to drop out of a discussion if its boring you, why wouldn't you? But the implication here is that I'm just arguing for the sake of it, in which case you can tell what I get out of brexit? Otherwise there seems a dam good reason to argue against it.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
12 February, 2020 00:29
Quote:
joethefanatic

So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".

Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.

Quote:
joethefanatic

We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.

Yeah, they don't...

(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party taking truly awful terms...).

Quote:
joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.

And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
12 February, 2020 01:08
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic

So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".

Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.

Quote:
joethefanatic

We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.

Yeah, they don't...

(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party taking truly awful terms...).

Quote:
joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.

And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?

The end of the transition period is 31DEC2020. Let's take a look at what things look like then. Until that point, I'm going to keep checking facts.

And your comment on negotiations? In an ideal world they are win-win (although the magnitude of the win is not necessarily symmetrical). But... have you had a look at Trump's negotiating tactics (as far as I can tell he has no actual negotiating strategy)? He demands what he wants, throws his toys when he doesn't get it and then sues everyone in the immediate vicinity. Nicey-Nicey is out. You either have a big stick or you are toast. I don't see our big stick. And the EU are not of the mind to do us any favors because that would encourage others to leave. And China thinks in terms of hundreds of years. They will just wait us out. We're desperate and they're not and they know it.

As Sonny said of the hidden gun for Michael in the Godfather. "I don't want my brother coming out of the bathroom with just his dick in his hand". We don't even have a dick.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2020 01:21 by joethefanatic.

gaz59
gaz59
13 February, 2020 10:02
"We don't even have a dick."

Actually we do and that is the biggest part of our problem

Over time, say 15 to 20 years I'm sure BFJ will be broadly right and business and successive governments will have found solutions to ease over the big issues so that by then it will be viewed as generally neutral allowing those with more of a political to agenda to claim it was the right thing to do

But someone needs to be logging the cost and pain of getting there

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
13 February, 2020 11:42
Quote:
gaz59
"We don't even have a dick."
Actually we do and that is the biggest part of our problem

(Sm125)

Man from LA
Man from LA
13 February, 2020 22:17
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic

So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".

Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.

Quote:
joethefanatic

We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.

Yeah, they don't...

(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party takingjavascript:editor_tools_handle_image() truly awful terms...).

Quote:
joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.

And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?

The Government has admitted any type of Brexit will make the UK poorer (funny how many economic and trade experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of running the economy of an entire country). When this happens are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions? Or blame it on the nasty-wasty foreigners? I know what my money is on.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
14 February, 2020 00:04
Quote:
Man from LA
The Government has admitted any type of Brexit will make the UK poorer (funny how many economic and trade experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of running the economy of an entire country). When this happens are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions? Or blame it on the nasty-wasty foreigners? I know what my money is on.

1. I'm not sure this government has admitted that.
2. Yeah, the 'economic and trade experts' we've heard from, do seem to think it will have a negative effect on the economy.
3. It's an impossible metric to measure. The growth of Italy, France and Germany (per the EU commission) is lower than they predict for the UK. Might it be lower than if we remained. Possibly, but you could never prove it. It's safe to say, on current predictions, large established economies in Europe are going to have a hard time - we are one of them.
4. Don't imply I have a problem with foreigners (I think my gf might be interested to hear that). Your antipathy to fellow citizens (?) far exceeds any I have to 'foreigners'.
5. If it goes to pot, and it can be reasonably connected to Brexit, then I'll blame Brexit. If it doesn't then I'll go back to my default position of being critical of the government and its governance. We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
14 February, 2020 09:42
"We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point"

I don't think many people are 'willing the country to fail', I'm not. You shouldn't confuse thinking something is a bad idea with people not making their best of it. My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game.

" I'll blame Brexit"

Won't it be a bit late then? Crying over spilt milk? But, in the general case, I'm not sure leavers will. If our banking industry dwindles over the next few years that's highly likely to be brexit related, I just don't see leavers going "yeah, that was kinda my fault." I expect them to say, as they've done with the lack of recent investment in our automotive industry: "It's cos X are a thing of the past.", "That institution has been struggling for years.", "I don't think our economy should be based around..." , "look at this tiny silver lining." and a whole bunch of other excuses.

JFPC
JFPC
14 February, 2020 11:07
Quote:
DanWiley
"We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point"
I don't think many people are 'willing the country to fail', I'm not. You shouldn't confuse thinking something is a bad idea with people not making their best of it. My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game.

" I'll blame Brexit"

Won't it be a bit late then? Crying over spilt milk? But, in the general case, I'm not sure leavers will. If our banking industry dwindles over the next few years that's highly likely to be brexit related, I just don't see leavers going "yeah, that was kinda my fault." I expect them to say, as they've done with the lack of recent investment in our automotive industry: "It's cos X are a thing of the past.", "That institution has been struggling for years.", "I don't think our economy should be based around..." , "look at this tiny silver lining." and a whole bunch of other excuses.

+1

Unlike most of the leading brexiteers I'm stuck here and my future is tied to this country's wellbeing. I don't have a multi million pound pension to fall back on, or a hedge fund I can shift to Ireland, or German passports for myself and my family. In short I actually need brexit to go well. Do I think it will go well? Not on your nelly.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

gaz59
gaz59
14 February, 2020 17:41
"My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game. "

Blooky good analogy though I reckon the odds on your pub team beating the All Blacks are lower than Brexit going well in our lifetime

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
15 February, 2020 08:58
Mark Carney seems to be changing his thinking according to this Mail article - Link



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

gaz59
gaz59
15 February, 2020 23:33
What are the odds that Johnson's time in no 10 ends dramatically and without any shadow of doubt the worst PM ever?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
16 February, 2020 02:23
After Treeza and Call-me-Dave? It'll have to be some disaster to beat those two. But I do have faith in Boris (or Dominic).



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
16 February, 2020 10:34
Quote:
joethefanatic
After Treeza and Call-me-Dave? It'll have to be some disaster to beat those two. But I do have faith in Boris (or Dominic).

The fact that you bracket Cummings is utterly terrifying.

Itís now a joke that we all accept that government policy is being driven by an unelected cookoo.

And I use the word cookoo on purpose.

J

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 February, 2020 12:09
OK so the thread is no longer about Brexit but about rubbishing individuals. Pure class, I becoming resigned to the fact that some people want to live in the past and are simply not able to move on.

The problem is if the perceived public view of socialism becomes that 'stuck in a rut' image Labour will never move on.
Listening to comment on the Labour party leadership challenge I was genuinely surprised to hear that the Labour party still maintain that their election manifesto policies are workable and will win them election success. The election failure being the fault of their Brexit stance. (Notice how the thread topic is included).

I do wonder if Brexit will bring about decisions that would have been inconceivable if we had stayed in Europe. Limited 5G with Huawei and Chinese involvement in HS2 being 2 examples though I suspect Mr Corbyn would have approved of the latter!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
16 February, 2020 18:00
Quote:
shipwrecked
OK so the thread is no longer about Brexit but about rubbishing individuals. Pure class, I becoming resigned to the fact that some people want to live in the past and are simply not able to move on.
....

I do wonder if Brexit will bring about decisions that would have been inconceivable if we had stayed in Europe. Limited 5G with Huawei and Chinese involvement in HS2 being 2 examples though I suspect Mr Corbyn would have approved of the latter!

So your observation in your first paragraph would be different from your comments in your last paragraph in what way, exactly?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 February, 2020 19:36
Not rubbishing in any way, I think that China could well build HS2, would JC have rejected the approach?
It makes financial sense, or are you an advocate of the China conspiracy theorists?

If it was given consideration it would also be further proof that BJ is his own man and not at all submissive to the USA.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
16 February, 2020 22:21
What do you mean by "China build HS2?" I'd be amazed of there isn't significant involvement from Chinese industry, and why would we object to that? I'd also be amazed if we contract the Chinese state to do it. There's no choices for us there, there's just practical ways of building a railway.

On the other hand, if we can't convince the US and EU that core aspects of our information sharing network are secure, they simply won't share critical information with us and we'll suffer as a result. We have the illusion of choice there but, in reality, for certain parts of that infrastructure there's only one choice and for rest of that infrastructure we're back in "practical ways of building a network." Saying we get to choose about the bits that don't relate to national security isn't really that great. That's not the bit people are taking about.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
21 February, 2020 22:00
I read this and thought of this thread - Guardian EU article



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
28 February, 2020 16:28
50,000 new customs agents to be needed to deal with the new Brexit red tape. And they'll need to be trained up cos we don't actually have any. And it'll all need to be complete in 8 months or the ports will seize up.

Frictionless trade, me erse.

[www.theguardian.com]



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/02/2020 16:30 by joethefanatic.

gaz59
gaz59
28 February, 2020 18:51
Quote:
joethefanatic
50,000 new customs agents to be needed to deal with the new Brexit red tape. And they'll need to be trained up cos we don't actually have any. And it'll all need to be complete in 8 months or the ports will seize up.
Frictionless trade, me erse.

[www.theguardian.com]

Makes me think I should invest my meagre savings in buying a property in Dover. If Johnson's strategy is right then it is going to be a boom town

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
28 February, 2020 20:18
It's a good job they passed an Act to prevent a No-Deal exit, isn't it, otherwise people might start thinking that's what is intended.

DanWiley
DanWiley
28 February, 2020 20:47
It's ok, we've got an oven ready brexit.

BBandW
BBandW
29 February, 2020 09:42
... and a different coloured passport.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
29 February, 2020 09:53
Don't think Brexit problems are the main issues facing the UK at present. Flooding, coronavirus and the resulting worldwide market crashes are of far greater importance.

With the first 2 Boris has showed a total lack of leadership and additionally a lack of caring with respect to flooding (perhaps if it affected London he might get interested). He has given the opposition a free swing to attack him for his lack of leadership and yet they are still failing to put any pressure on him.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
29 February, 2020 12:19
Quote:
OutsideBath
With the first 2 Boris has showed a total lack of leadership and additionally a lack of caring with respect to flooding (perhaps if it affected London he might get interested). He has given the opposition a free swing to attack him for his lack of leadership and yet they are still failing to put any pressure on him.

I disagree with this on the first point. What would be the point of him visiting the flooded areas?

Of course, the media want it because there is an opportunity for heckling or other bad press, the opposition want it because it makes him look bad.

Send the EA leaders and send the minister responsible (which is what they are doing). If there is reason to doubt the minister's performance then it is incumbent on Boris to ask.

I hope this, and all future governments, can move past this... 'oh, something bad has happened we must get a photo opportunity to pretend we care more' while be able to meaningfully contribute nothing.

For what it's worth, I think the 3rd point is rather driving the decisions on the second point. Hard to tell if they will be right or wrong.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
29 February, 2020 12:26
Quote:
The Bear
I disagree with this on the first point. What would be the point of him visiting the flooded areas?.

Itís about demonstrating leadership and at least pretending he cares when he clearly doesnít.

Heís the PM and he should be in the areas affected getting stick if those affected feel he deserves it.

Successive governments have starved the EA of the necessary funds and rendered it not fit for purpose. All Boris has done is hide away in Kent and hope it blows over.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
29 February, 2020 13:34
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
OutsideBath
With the first 2 Boris has showed a total lack of leadership and additionally a lack of caring with respect to flooding (perhaps if it affected London he might get interested). He has given the opposition a free swing to attack him for his lack of leadership and yet they are still failing to put any pressure on him.

I disagree with this on the first point. What would be the point of him visiting the flooded areas?

Of course, the media want it because there is an opportunity for heckling or other bad press, the opposition want it because it makes him look bad.

Send the EA leaders and send the minister responsible (which is what they are doing). If there is reason to doubt the minister's performance then it is incumbent on Boris to ask.

I hope this, and all future governments, can move past this... 'oh, something bad has happened we must get a photo opportunity to pretend we care more' while be able to meaningfully contribute nothing.

For what it's worth, I think the 3rd point is rather driving the decisions on the second point. Hard to tell if they will be right or wrong.

For someone who professes he wants to be remembered as the 'modern Churchill', he is missing Churchill's main strong point; if something is going wrong, get out and be seen to be doing something about it. Even the Queen Mother did a few walkabouts during the WWII

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
29 February, 2020 14:05
Iím no fan of BoJo but not sure the flooding is his fault. Why would he deserve and stick for it, heís not King Canute. As the Bear points out, I would much rather that he was on the phone to the EA asking them to get everyone they have on the case.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
29 February, 2020 14:28
We need a new 'environmental infrastructure tax' to cover flood defences, car charging infrastucture, tree introduction, renewable energy projects, plastic use reduction, coastal erosion. Funded by industry and individuals alike.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
29 February, 2020 15:14
Quote:
BathMatt53
Iím no fan of BoJo but not sure the flooding is his fault. Why would he deserve and stick for it, heís not King Canute. As the Bear points out, I would much rather that he was on the phone to the EA asking them to get everyone they have on the case.

Why would BoJo get stick? Because like previous government he continues to starve the EA of the necessary funding for flood defences. As for dealing with the situation all great leaders know when itís time to get in there amongst the people.

Just like the Coronavirus situation his leadership has been shocking and complacent.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
29 February, 2020 23:31
If I was one of those unfortunate people who has been flooded out I would take some comfort from seeing him make the effort to come and talk to me.

So he should go, not as a photo opportunity but to speak to those affected over a cup of tea behind closed doors at their temporary accommodation and to support the EA staff who are probably working 7 day weeks.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 March, 2020 11:27
Quote:
OutsideBath
Just like the Coronavirus situation his leadership has been shocking and complacent.

Boris Johnson perhaps should have visited the flooded areas but where, there are so many however, I don't recognise a failure in relation to coronavirus. Seems to me we are well set up for this potential health risk for all of us.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 March, 2020 11:59
Quote:
shipwrecked
We need a new 'environmental infrastructure tax' to cover flood defences, car charging infrastucture, tree introduction, renewable energy projects, plastic use reduction, coastal erosion. Funded by industry and individuals alike.

This is the sort of thing that should result from the new Environment Bill 2020 which just had itís second reading SW. We are already seeing big changes in the sector through concepts including Biodiversity Net Gain etc.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 March, 2020 12:08
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked
We need a new 'environmental infrastructure tax' to cover flood defences, car charging infrastucture, tree introduction, renewable energy projects, plastic use reduction, coastal erosion. Funded by industry and individuals alike.

This is the sort of thing that should result from the new Environment Bill 2020 which just had itís second reading SW. We are already seeing big changes in the sector through concepts including Biodiversity Net Gain etc.

Thats actually quite reassuring Matt, if you find a bit more info on that I'd welcome a read. I'm not good at wading through the heavy stuff!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 March, 2020 12:17
Summary Policy Statement here SW:

[www.gov.uk]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 March, 2020 13:19
Quote:
BathMatt53
Summary Policy Statement here SW:
[www.gov.uk]

Interesting Matt, so the Bill outlines basics really. Most peoples concerns given the past couple of months involve building things, like permanent flood defences or a plan for car charging points which we will definitely need over the next 15 years. Would that stem from this Bill as it seems a bit general rather than specific?

P.S. Thanks for the link btw and apologies for going off topic!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2020 13:21 by shipwrecked.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
01 March, 2020 14:11
[www.msn.com] - Where do they find these people, and how have they managed to survive to maturity with such views?

BBandW
BBandW
01 March, 2020 14:31
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-doesnt-need-farmers-leaked-emails-claim-major-new-whitehall-storm-erupts-over-incendiary-suggestions-made-by-dominic-cummings-adviser-after-number-10-brands-senior-mandarin-who-quit-over-priti-patel-row-sir-calamity/ar-BB10AspQ?ocid=spartanntp - Where do they find these people, and how have they managed to survive to maturity with such views?

The "advisor" states that we could be like Singapore, because they don't have a farming industry. Rather misses the point that Singapore is smaller than London and 300 times smaller than the UK. Singapore couldn't have a farming industry if it wanted to ( except in window boxes).

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 March, 2020 20:00
How does importing everything sit alongside a sustainable way of life? Do I want my beef from a cleared rainforest (not really thanks). Do I want my cereals swimming in herbicides, pesticides and mineral fertilisers before being shipped from the USA? Nope.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
01 March, 2020 21:18
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
OutsideBath
Just like the Coronavirus situation his leadership has been shocking and complacent.

Boris Johnson perhaps should have visited the flooded areas but where, there are so many however, I don't recognise a failure in relation to coronavirus. Seems to me we are well set up for this potential health risk for all of us.

Should have toured all the regions instead of hiding away in a Kent mansion. As for Coronavirus the government is doing a really good job of containment... not

Still allowing people to wander in from hot zones untested.

Dunno
Bod
02 March, 2020 10:16
Quote:
BathMatt53
How does importing everything sit alongside a sustainable way of life? Do I want my beef from a cleared rainforest (not really thanks). Do I want my cereals swimming in herbicides, pesticides and mineral fertilisers before being shipped from the USA? Nope.

Obviously not too many , regardless of origen, give much consideration to animal welfare. If they did they'd ban live exports and examine slaughter systems and legislate in favour of animals and not acquiescence to superstitions and cults.

If you want chemicals etc on your fruit and veg you only need to look across the Channel to find them defended by massive lobbies in Bruxelles.

You do know these things don't you?

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