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Quote:John Tee
It is keeping countries onboard with EU dogma that could be sticky...
Quote:John Tee
It is keeping countries onboard with EU dogma that could be sticky...
Quote:DanWiley
You can do all you can to make a success of a situation, I've got to, I've little choice, but still think the best you can achieve is to make the most of a catastrophe.
Quote:CoochieCooQuote:DanWiley
You can do all you can to make a success of a situation, I've got to, I've little choice, but still think the best you can achieve is to make the most of a catastrophe.
That is the issue, Dan, you are approaching Brexit from a prospective of it being a catastrophe, I am approaching it from the prospective of It being a challenge and a new way of forging relationships with Europe and the rest of the World. I understand and agreed with your misgivings but we have to now face reality and forge a different future.
Quote:annie blackthorn
It seems from the above that many see the EU and Brexit in the simple quantifiable terms of trade and finance.
Quote:annie blackthorn
Sad really. Nothing about the environmental cooperation, the scientific research projects which have been ditched because half the terms (give or take) were made up of European nationals, let alone the ceasing of Erasmus (you know, the student education thingy).
Quote:annie blackthorn
The Bear - I do wish you wouldn't be so very rude and dismissive of opinions which do not coincide with your own very blinkered from a safe distance as an ex-pat i.e. you do not live and work in the UK, views. I do wonder who you are interacting with, whether you ever meet those outside your own very closed circle of ex-pats. Do you exchange ideas, or have your views challenged? It seems not. Not that I care.
Quote:DanWiley
"Of course we'll still be able to trade freely with the EU if we vote leave... Though with friction, lots and lots of friction." Gove, though in fairness that ellipsis represents nearly four years.
Do you still not feel lied to? Not even a little bit?
Quote:DanWiley
"I’m lied to on a daily basis by our politicians, little I can do about it so what’s the point of getting all bent out of shape?"
Ah, but it seems you believed them this time. Or have your always known brexit makes little sense but for some reason argued for it for many years?
Quote:DanWiley
The thing is every leave lie that is exposed indicates that remain weren't lying.
As it stands the only flat out lie I can see that remain told was that the day after the vote everything would be bad. That was always a stupid thing to say as a moment's thought, and certainly the ensuing 3 years, makes clear. Otherwise most elements of "project fear" have already show to have elements of truth to them.
Quote:DanWiley
So, if Corbyn had got in and the worst that was said of him was true and he'd just got there by lying to everyone, you'd turn around and go "fair play, nothing I can do about it, I guess I'll join the communist party."?
WB, surely you see the difference in scale here? I mean because of brexit 100s of billions of £ of assets (it's getting close to a trillion) have already been moved out of British banks, and that's just one aspect: our aerospace and automotive industries, to name just a couple, are both in a bad place. We've binned a fantastic trading position, both with the EU and through the EU's trade deals, to start again as a weaker entity.
That's a little beyond the general governmental size and incompetence and, in any case, its on top of it.
Quote:DanWiley
So, if Corbyn had got in and the worst that was said of him was true and he'd just got there by lying to everyone, you'd turn around and go "fair play, nothing I can do about it, I guess I'll join the communist party."?
Quote:98% of your posts on 'ERE would disagree.OutsideBath
Well I certainly wouldn't still be moaning about it because there is nothing I could have done about it.
Quote:DanWiley
We could have been an influential part of that, instead we decided to throw our toys out of the pram because Great Britain long since lost its status as a super power and we're still struggling to come to terms with that.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Dear Dan
I am going to continue posting on 'ere, indeed as I have just done on the Dai Young thread.
However finally I admit defeat to you on this thread.
Whilst I do not accept your views and as I repeat often, see no evidence whatsoever in my world of your views, indeed in a number of situations something of the opposite I am afraid we are never going to move on and so I shall duck out of this particular thread.
I will keep reading it and will continue to be interested in the various views expressed.....so I will become a "lurker"!
In one, three, five years or more I shall return to this thread (which I am certain will still be going!) and as time passes we will see whether you are right or wrong...........even (which I strongly doubt) if things in the future can be explained away by Leaving or had we Remained.
Finally I will say as my final comment on this thread my view is that Leaving will in fact be largely neutral with some positive benefits in time. However Remaining in the EU will itself become much more tricky in the future and I believe we will in time..........three to five years, be very glad we left the moribund superstate which will be progressively move to a bad place.
Quote:The BearQuote:DanWiley
We could have been an influential part of that, instead we decided to throw our toys out of the pram because Great Britain long since lost its status as a super power and we're still struggling to come to terms with that.
Mate, how many voters do you think were alive during the meaningful period of empire? Hardly any.
How many voters completely avoided the Pre-Blair years when we significantly less successful on the economic front (in 1997 we overtook Italy's economy)?
It's only voters since that period who have had it 'so good' (macroeconomic and 'soft power'-wise) and yet they predominantly voted Remain.
It is Remainers who constantly fetishize 'global power', empire and speak in terms of decline. (Meanwhile they think that we could make a significant difference in areas such as environmentalism - you can't have it both ways).
Quote:joethefanatic
So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".
Quote:joethefanatic
We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.
Quote:joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.
Quote:The BearQuote:joethefanatic
So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".
Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.
Quote:joethefanatic
We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.
Yeah, they don't...
(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party taking truly awful terms...).
Quote:joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.
And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?
Quote:gaz59
"We don't even have a dick."
Actually we do and that is the biggest part of our problem
Quote:The BearQuote:joethefanatic
So, we should just "let it go"? The most profound change in UK foreign policy for 50 years bought with exaggerations, half-truths and just downright lies and we should just "let it go"? I don't think so, "mate".
Eh, that's not what I said but I also don't agree with the characterisation. You can believe it's all about empire or halcyon days of the past - there is no reasonable basis for that belief. But absolutely fight all the lost battles you wish.
Quote:joethefanatic
We will get the worst of all possible worlds where we have no leverage or negotiating power and are condemned to be mere rule takers from everyone we want to talk to. Because that's how negotiation works.
Yeah, they don't...
(Funny how many negotiating experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of the smaller party takingjavascript:editor_tools_handle_image() truly awful terms...).
Quote:joethefanatic
I want the Government to own this debacle good and hard and if regularly checking progress against what was promised is what it takes, then I'll gladly help do it.
And if it's not terrible? Are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions?
Quote:Man from LA
The Government has admitted any type of Brexit will make the UK poorer (funny how many economic and trade experts are on this forum, especially given they must have experience of running the economy of an entire country). When this happens are you going to come on here and admit your errors or false predictions? Or blame it on the nasty-wasty foreigners? I know what my money is on.
Quote:DanWiley
"We'll see but at least I'm not willing the country to fail to prove my point"
I don't think many people are 'willing the country to fail', I'm not. You shouldn't confuse thinking something is a bad idea with people not making their best of it. My pub team could play the all blacks, I might well think we'd lose, but I'd still put a lot into that game.
" I'll blame Brexit"
Won't it be a bit late then? Crying over spilt milk? But, in the general case, I'm not sure leavers will. If our banking industry dwindles over the next few years that's highly likely to be brexit related, I just don't see leavers going "yeah, that was kinda my fault." I expect them to say, as they've done with the lack of recent investment in our automotive industry: "It's cos X are a thing of the past.", "That institution has been struggling for years.", "I don't think our economy should be based around..." , "look at this tiny silver lining." and a whole bunch of other excuses.
Quote:joethefanatic
After Treeza and Call-me-Dave? It'll have to be some disaster to beat those two. But I do have faith in Boris (or Dominic).
Quote:shipwrecked
OK so the thread is no longer about Brexit but about rubbishing individuals. Pure class, I becoming resigned to the fact that some people want to live in the past and are simply not able to move on.
....
I do wonder if Brexit will bring about decisions that would have been inconceivable if we had stayed in Europe. Limited 5G with Huawei and Chinese involvement in HS2 being 2 examples though I suspect Mr Corbyn would have approved of the latter!
Quote:joethefanatic
50,000 new customs agents to be needed to deal with the new Brexit red tape. And they'll need to be trained up cos we don't actually have any. And it'll all need to be complete in 8 months or the ports will seize up.
Frictionless trade, me erse.
[www.theguardian.com]
Quote:OutsideBath
With the first 2 Boris has showed a total lack of leadership and additionally a lack of caring with respect to flooding (perhaps if it affected London he might get interested). He has given the opposition a free swing to attack him for his lack of leadership and yet they are still failing to put any pressure on him.
Quote:The Bear
I disagree with this on the first point. What would be the point of him visiting the flooded areas?.
Quote:The BearQuote:OutsideBath
With the first 2 Boris has showed a total lack of leadership and additionally a lack of caring with respect to flooding (perhaps if it affected London he might get interested). He has given the opposition a free swing to attack him for his lack of leadership and yet they are still failing to put any pressure on him.
I disagree with this on the first point. What would be the point of him visiting the flooded areas?
Of course, the media want it because there is an opportunity for heckling or other bad press, the opposition want it because it makes him look bad.
Send the EA leaders and send the minister responsible (which is what they are doing). If there is reason to doubt the minister's performance then it is incumbent on Boris to ask.
I hope this, and all future governments, can move past this... 'oh, something bad has happened we must get a photo opportunity to pretend we care more' while be able to meaningfully contribute nothing.
For what it's worth, I think the 3rd point is rather driving the decisions on the second point. Hard to tell if they will be right or wrong.
Quote:BathMatt53
I’m no fan of BoJo but not sure the flooding is his fault. Why would he deserve and stick for it, he’s not King Canute. As the Bear points out, I would much rather that he was on the phone to the EA asking them to get everyone they have on the case.
Quote:OutsideBath
Just like the Coronavirus situation his leadership has been shocking and complacent.
Quote:shipwrecked
We need a new 'environmental infrastructure tax' to cover flood defences, car charging infrastucture, tree introduction, renewable energy projects, plastic use reduction, coastal erosion. Funded by industry and individuals alike.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
We need a new 'environmental infrastructure tax' to cover flood defences, car charging infrastucture, tree introduction, renewable energy projects, plastic use reduction, coastal erosion. Funded by industry and individuals alike.
This is the sort of thing that should result from the new Environment Bill 2020 which just had it’s second reading SW. We are already seeing big changes in the sector through concepts including Biodiversity Net Gain etc.
Quote:
Quote:Mike the Taxi
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/britain-doesnt-need-farmers-leaked-emails-claim-major-new-whitehall-storm-erupts-over-incendiary-suggestions-made-by-dominic-cummings-adviser-after-number-10-brands-senior-mandarin-who-quit-over-priti-patel-row-sir-calamity/ar-BB10AspQ?ocid=spartanntp - Where do they find these people, and how have they managed to survive to maturity with such views?
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:OutsideBath
Just like the Coronavirus situation his leadership has been shocking and complacent.
Boris Johnson perhaps should have visited the flooded areas but where, there are so many however, I don't recognise a failure in relation to coronavirus. Seems to me we are well set up for this potential health risk for all of us.
Quote:BathMatt53
How does importing everything sit alongside a sustainable way of life? Do I want my beef from a cleared rainforest (not really thanks). Do I want my cereals swimming in herbicides, pesticides and mineral fertilisers before being shipped from the USA? Nope.