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Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
02 March, 2020 10:28
I have seen animals being slaughtered in back streets in Greece and seen round one or two food establishments in Italy that were not too savoury. So for Europeans to bleat about food standards of production makes me smile as the hypocrisy is rife.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 March, 2020 11:04
It was related to whether Britain should have any agriculture at all, or import all agricultural produce. I would prefer that we maintained an agricultural sector - as someone who spends lots of time on farms and working with farmers I know the hoops that they jump through to provide the best produce. They have definitely come around to the fact that many people in the UK are now willing to pay a bit more for the best quality ingredients / produce and that it is worth meeting all of the relevant Standards that organisations and food buyers set for them - Red Tractor Assurance, Quality Standard Mark Scheme (for beef and lamb), RSPCA Assured, Soil Association Organic Standard, LEAF Marque (for fruit and veg) etc.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

JFPC
JFPC
02 March, 2020 11:13
Quote:
Dunno
Quote:
BathMatt53
How does importing everything sit alongside a sustainable way of life? Do I want my beef from a cleared rainforest (not really thanks). Do I want my cereals swimming in herbicides, pesticides and mineral fertilisers before being shipped from the USA? Nope.

Obviously not too many , regardless of origen, give much consideration to animal welfare. If they did they'd ban live exports and examine slaughter systems and legislate in favour of animals and not acquiescence to superstitions and cults.

If you want chemicals etc on your fruit and veg you only need to look across the Channel to find them defended by massive lobbies in Bruxelles.

You do know these things don't you?

Nobody's saying that all European agriculture is organic but as someone from a farming background I can assure you that there are a lot of herbicides, pesticides and fungicides banned in Europe that are permitted in the USA. (If you don't believe me, do a quick google of most toxic pesticides allowed in US.)

Also no-one's saying European animal husbandry is perfect, but it is a heck of a lot better than US standards.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

BBandW
BBandW
02 March, 2020 14:24
"sing happy birthday and wash your hands" - positively Churchillian stuff from our leader. Well worth waiting for him to emerge from his country retreat.

JFPC
JFPC
02 March, 2020 14:43
[ehjournal.biomedcentral.com]

In relation to earlier point about US pesticides.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
02 March, 2020 14:51
I still can't get my head round this 'we will play by our own rules, not the EU' idea.
The UK has spent the last 40 years aligning our standards (engineering, electronics agricultural etc) to the EU, to enable smooth trading between us. These standards must surely be retained if the UK wants to trade easily with the EU? Going by 'our own rules' will surely make trading more difficult?

MESSAGES->author
hemington
02 March, 2020 15:34
Not only trading but we will have to employ all those bureaucrats to write 'our' standards and then a ton more to decide whether foreign products meet our standards. Just think about all the standards involved in cars, child equipment etc etc. At the moment those tasks are shared by 27 countries - now we will have to do them all ourselves.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
02 March, 2020 16:49
Quote:
BBandW
"sing happy birthday and wash your hands" - positively Churchillian stuff from our leader. Well worth waiting for him to emerge from his country retreat.

We are so blessed to have a leader that has his finger on the pulse and is in total control during emergency situations..... (Sm161)

No doubt he will have our Brexit negotiators singing Land of Hope and Glory before each meeting with the EU.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
02 March, 2020 16:56
Quote:
hemington
Just think about all the standards involved in cars, child equipment etc etc. At the moment those tasks are shared by 27 countries - now we will have to do them all ourselves.

From experience, I can guarantee you what you gain in resources to speed things up, you lose more in the added complexity (and you can only make incremental gains on the lowest performer). As long as the UK provides the resources (and the political direction) it will be loads easier.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

BBandW
BBandW
02 March, 2020 18:17
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
hemington
Just think about all the standards involved in cars, child equipment etc etc. At the moment those tasks are shared by 27 countries - now we will have to do them all ourselves.

From experience, I can guarantee you what you gain in resources to speed things up, you lose more in the added complexity (and you can only make incremental gains on the lowest performer). As long as the UK provides the resources (and the political direction) it will be loads easier.

The Bear, you have missed the point completely.

Its not a matter of easier or not. Very simply, the UK will not be able to supply goods to the EU without meeting EU standards. All goods imported into (or supplied within) the EU must carry the CE Mark to show compliance with the EU directive (rules) applicable to the product type. No CE Mark, no import into the EU.

The irony is that UK companies used to sit on the committees that set these EU standards and so had an input into them. Now we will have to slavishly follow them, without input, if we want to export to the EU. Not exactly "taking back control" is it ? More like "total loss of control"

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
03 March, 2020 07:26
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
I still can't get my head round this 'we will play by our own rules, not the EU' idea.
The UK has spent the last 40 years aligning our standards (engineering, electronics agricultural etc) to the EU, to enable smooth trading between us. These standards must surely be retained if the UK wants to trade easily with the EU? Going by 'our own rules' will surely make trading more difficult?

It’s bonkers and purely political of this government to create a wedge.

I’d imagine that most sane producers will still align themselves to the EU standards otherwise they will just be bring cost into their production lines.

There will be a natural alignment because business isn’t mental.

“Take back control”, from and for what?

J

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 March, 2020 07:44
To give it to the US it seems. Apparently without irony, they are American, they want to control who we make trade deals with.

MESSAGES->author
Jim H
03 March, 2020 10:50
Quote:
BBandW
Its not a matter of easier or not. Very simply, the UK will not be able to supply goods to the EU without meeting EU standards. All goods imported into (or supplied within) the EU must carry the CE Mark to show compliance with the EU directive (rules) applicable to the product type. No CE Mark, no import into the EU.

The irony is that UK companies used to sit on the committees that set these EU standards and so had an input into them. Now we will have to slavishly follow them, without input, if we want to export to the EU. Not exactly "taking back control" is it ? More like "total loss of control"

Imho I think you have missed the point. Currently if any UK company wants to sell to any market (other than the EU) then they have to comply with the legislation there. This seems to work as UK exports to non-EU have been growing faster than exports to EU. This indicates being in the EU is not advantage in selling to the EU.

So the future state will be the same for the EU - if you want to sell them then you comply to their regs, if you don't want to (or have to) then don't. This process seems to work for Chinese, and many other countries, companies selling into the EU. The selling companies will have taken back control.

MESSAGES->author
Jim H
03 March, 2020 10:53
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
I still can't get my head round this 'we will play by our own rules, not the EU' idea.
The UK has spent the last 40 years aligning our standards (engineering, electronics agricultural etc) to the EU, to enable smooth trading between us. These standards must surely be retained if the UK wants to trade easily with the EU? Going by 'our own rules' will surely make trading more difficult?

According to my colleagues in the construction & agriculture businesses it's mainly been the EU aligning their standards to ours as the UK standards are higher. UK Standards are why about 40% of all REACH registrations are done here & why the UK was the favoured EMEA agency to get (Italy is hated...).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2020 14:14 by Jim H.

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 March, 2020 12:25
"The selling companies will have taken back control."

And the consumer will lose out. One of two thing can happen: lower standards, we lose out or maintain standards, no point.

MESSAGES->author
Jim H
03 March, 2020 14:41
Quote:
DanWiley
"The selling companies will have taken back control."
And the consumer will lose out. One of two thing can happen: lower standards, we lose out or maintain standards, no point.

Any evidence to support those opinions?
A third option could be that the UK sets more appriopriate standards, that lower costs and raise standards, and the consumer is quids in. While companies wanting to sell to the EU (or the US, China, India etc..) are still able to if they comply with local regs.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
03 March, 2020 14:54
Quote:
Jim H
A third option could be that the UK sets more appriopriate standards, that lower costs and raise standards, and the consumer is quids in.

Lower costs and raise standards - very Trumpesque

MESSAGES->author
Jim H
03 March, 2020 15:11
Quote:
hemington
Quote:
Jim H
A third option could be that the UK sets more appriopriate standards, that lower costs and raise standards, and the consumer is quids in.

Lower costs and raise standards - very Trumpesque

It has as much supporting evidence as Dan's comments, but I can give a possible example..

A local craftsperson makes food for local delivery, orders can be placed online for collection. Under the EU this person has to comply with GDPR, an expensive, time consuming activity. However, under the "lowering" of standards possible in the UK GDPR doesn't have to apply so a cost is removed, time freed up. Thus more time can be put in preparation (better food) & lower costs allow a price cut. Lower regulatory standards, lower costs, better product.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
03 March, 2020 15:15
So if I log on to this craftsperson's website to buy their goods, how is my online information going to be safeguarded?

warrenball
warrenball
03 March, 2020 15:42
Jim

Not sure about your example, GDPR has been very easy to comply with, far more onerous are the changes and requirements made by HMRC

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 March, 2020 15:44
I think you have given a very bad example from your point of view:

- very likely GDPR or something similar will continue to apply
- You REALLY want something like GDPR to apply
- The spread of information is so pervasive that businesses that don't apply GDPR like regulations will find themselves isolated. THEY might not have a relationship with overseas partners but you can bet, perhaps transitively, their suppliers or customers will. Much of their market literally won't be able to do business with them (if they've any sense) unless they look after the information given to them.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
03 March, 2020 22:23
Say GDPR and people think cookies and bank details (although they are protected under separate regulations).

There is a more sinister side to GDPR and the power it gives the ECJ to intrude and legislate on companies they deem handle sufficient data. The powers are quite sweeping ('appropriate use' is decided by them) and it's hard to believe the ECJ won't use them eventually.

It's a charter of fundamental rights for technology and luckily that aspect won't affect us and potentially gives us a competitive advantage with tech firms concerned about domiciling in the EU (there is no real single market for services). I suspect we will keep the cookies restrictions (and associated pop-ups however).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 March, 2020 22:53
"legislate on companies they deem handle sufficient data. The powers are quite sweeping"

It's protecting YOU. Against companies that would love to abuse the data you can't help but put in the public domain. What is it that companies should be able to do with your data that gdpr prevents?

MESSAGES->author
hemington
04 March, 2020 10:02
Make even more profits?

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
04 March, 2020 11:09
Does GDPR Apply to US Companies?
Many businesses have asked the question of whether the GDPR applies to US companies that are already compliant with the EU-US Privacy Shield. The answer is Yes, they are in scope of the GDPR if they are processing or are a controller of personal data of data subjects in the European Union.

The GDPR has a much wider scope than the EU-US Privacy Shield, which only governs the flow of personal data in transatlantic data exchanges and exists as an agreement to allow this flow of information to take place. US companies within the scope of the GDPR should assume they will have to comply with all the Regulation’s requirements.

How the GDPR applies to US companies controlling or processing personal data can be complicated – particularly with regard to those who collect personal data pertaining to individuals located both inside and outside the EU, or to cloud environments based within the EU but supported in the US.

The difficulty of addressing these questions, as well as several other complicated areas, makes GDPR compliance for US companies an area that requires action to be taken as soon as possible.

Compliance will be mandatory for those US companies Controlling or Processing the personal data of subjects in the European Union even where the processing may take place outside the Union.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
04 March, 2020 12:49
Quote:
DanWiley
"legislate on companies they deem handle sufficient data. The powers are quite sweeping"
It's protecting YOU. Against companies that would love to abuse the data you can't help but put in the public domain. What is it that companies should be able to do with your data that gdpr prevents?

In design, it does that. The concerns are not around the use of data but there is no safeguard to prevent judicial activism extending its reach to other areas. You might not see it as a problem but the ECJ is notorious for judicial expansion (overreach) and they will use it to enforce other standards on data handling companies (for example, the acceptability of the information they show us).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
04 March, 2020 13:53
Sounds a bit like 'Project Fear' to me; we are leaving the EU, so are no longer living in fear of the ECJ?

BBandW
BBandW
16 March, 2020 10:47
regarding Coronavirus, one immediate and practical thing the government can do is to agree a suspension of Brexit trade talks with the EU.

The next 12 months are not going to be the time to introduce friction into trade (as the government have said will happen), be having multiple face to face cross border talks or for the government to do anything but focus on the epidemic.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 March, 2020 10:56
I wonder if after this is over, there will be such an appetite for brexit, partly for demographic changes and partly a change in outlook. Could go the other way, but I think not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/03/2020 13:00 by woodpecker.

DanWiley
DanWiley
16 March, 2020 11:20
When is a good time to introduce friction to trade?

I don't think the demographics are going to change that much, even if they did I doubt those in charge would feel very compelled to change much. I do agree it gives them an opportunity to reassess a bit. Make it the brexit that they actually want.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
16 March, 2020 12:39
Quote:
woodpecker
I wonder if after this is over, there will be sucah an appetite for brexit, partly for demographic changes and partly a change in outlook. Could go the other way, but I think not.

The EU always seems to survive with its centralising mission. But nobody is looking at the effectiveness of the EU at the moment and thinking that's what we want...

I do also wish outlets like The Guardian wouldn't use a global pandemic to crowbar in their preferred political positions.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 March, 2020 12:53
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
woodpecker
I wonder if after this is over, there will be sucah an appetite for brexit, partly for demographic changes and partly a change in outlook. Could go the other way, but I think not.

The EU always seems to survive with its centralising mission. But nobody is looking at the effectiveness of the EU at the moment and thinking that's what we want...

I do also wish outlets like The Guardian wouldn't use a global pandemic to crowbar in their preferred political positions.

Is the EU managing our coronavirus outbreak or is it the UK government? Given we have 'left' but are still in the transition phase. I need to know who to blame.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
16 March, 2020 13:13
Ahh Brexit. I missed Brexit.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 March, 2020 13:16
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
woodpecker
I wonder if after this is over, there will be sucah an appetite for brexit, partly for demographic changes and partly a change in outlook. Could go the other way, but I think not.

The EU always seems to survive with its centralising mission. But nobody is looking at the effectiveness of the EU at the moment and thinking that's what we want...

I do also wish outlets like The Guardian wouldn't use a global pandemic to crowbar in their preferred political positions.

Is the EU managing our coronavirus outbreak or is it the UK government? Given we have 'left' but are still in the transition phase. I need to know who to blame.

Seroiusly, it should be neither. this needs to be run by scientists using scientific data and method. Credit to John McDonnell (Shadow chancellor) who said the same and is putting forward suggestion rather than attacking politically.

If you leave it to politicians all you get a ''Donald Trump like " cock up!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 16/03/2020 13:17 by shipwrecked.

DanWiley
DanWiley
16 March, 2020 13:24
I think it should be run by the government on the advice of scientists and other experts (weren't we calling for fewer experts not so long ago?). Someone does need to be accountable for the decisions made here and that's not really going to happen with experts. We're also looking for people who are good at making decisions. You can be a great scientist that isn't good at making decisions on this level and I would also expect all experts to have a rather narrower field of expertise than is required to make these decisions. Not to mention it would be very easy to find two experts at the top of their field that fundamentally disagree.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 March, 2020 13:35
Of course it needs a government figurehead but as for deciding has to be science lead.

Look at the USA:

1) Trump decided they didn't need disease control sacked them.
2) Didn't like WHO tests, rejected them.
3) Can't face up to facts so holds back test results.
4)Then tries to "buy" the virus vaccine to sell as the sole distributor for financial reasons.

Do you really need politicians?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
16 March, 2020 13:41
Listening to the news this lunchtime i heard about EU member state governments choosing to restrict or remove cross border movement to try and reduce the spread of the virus but the EU Commission doesn't think this is the correct approach apparently...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 March, 2020 13:59
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Listening to the news this lunchtime i heard about EU member state governments choosing to restrict or remove cross border movement to try and reduce the spread of the virus but the EU Commission doesn't think this is the correct approach apparently...

I really can not see the EU deciding for ALL member countries regarding policy. Each county has different medical resources, different infrastructure, different geography, different policing etc.
That would be a big mistake?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
16 March, 2020 14:04
restriction of movement will slow infection rates down. when that happens it becomes more containable and manageable by medical services.
Im doubting many ppl will even need treating so leave the nhs to deal with vulnerable cases and to help that, you need lower volumes of traffic.
That is the policy of containment aiui.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 March, 2020 14:11
Restricting movement makes sense in general. However shutting borders is just political, why would say Spain stop French people coming in. It's everywhere.

I suppose if everthing is shut you could argue that they will get bored and potentially use up even more toilet paper as a diversion.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 March, 2020 18:03
I see there is now talk of extending the 321st December deadline due to the impact of the coronavirus. Very sensible.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
17 March, 2020 18:09
Quote:
joethefanatic
I see there is now talk of extending the 321st December deadline due to the impact of the coronavirus. Very sensible.

+1

Must admit I thought the UK might lose out on the Virus situation by no longer being in the EU, but far from it. There seems to be less leadership from Brussels than the UK government and there also appears to be positive infighting amongst the remaining 27 members. Italy apparently asked for help some weeks back and was met by silence from Brussels according to an Italian MEP.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 March, 2020 18:14
So does the EU help countries that are unable to 'provide support' to their population and businesses like Greece for example. If so that's a massive drain on the richer members.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
FourSticks
17 March, 2020 18:25
Quote:
If so that's a massive drain on the richer members.

That's exactly how taxes work - you earn more you pay more. It doesn't all come back to you but to those who need it.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 March, 2020 19:23
So if the UK need to put in 330 billion and there are 27 countries in the EU lets say half need help then thats about 4.3 trillion plus bailing themselves out

a) Thats a humungous tax
b) Was the EU designed to cope with that?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
17 March, 2020 22:24
Quote:
FourSticks
Quote:
If so that's a massive drain on the richer members.

That's exactly how taxes work - you earn more you pay more. It doesn't all come back to you but to those who need it.

Yeah that works for the normal financial framework.

But no rich nation within the EU is transferring any more money to any other EU nation. Even in this time of crisis. And that won't change.

I only hope that whatever Union comes out of the end of this, casts away its anti-americanism and realises that China is the nation not to trust. But given China stepped in to fill the EU's gap, it probably won't happen.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

gaz59
gaz59
18 March, 2020 07:09
Quote:
joethefanatic
I see there is now talk of extending the 321st December deadline due to the impact of the coronavirus. Very sensible.

Not particularly sensible to simply talk about it!

It's a no brainer. The timetable was too short in normal circumstances so it is blooky obvious it will need longer now

What is there to talk about surely just pick a sensible date and nail it to get on with current priorities

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 March, 2020 07:32
Isn't the £300bn largely loans? It's not like we taking that money from our piggy bank in a direct sense and giving it to anyone.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
18 March, 2020 08:38
Quote:
The Bear
I only hope that whatever Union comes out of the end of this, casts away its anti-americanism and realises that China is the nation not to trust.

Does it have to be one or the other? Trump would step over an elderly nun to get to the last toilet roll in LIDL.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

gaz59
gaz59
18 March, 2020 09:03
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
The Bear
I only hope that whatever Union comes out of the end of this, casts away its anti-americanism and realises that China is the nation not to trust.

Does it have to be one or the other? Trump would step over an elderly nun to get to the last toilet roll in LIDL.

That picture made I laff, it did. Thank you BathMatt

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
18 March, 2020 09:11
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
The Bear
I only hope that whatever Union comes out of the end of this, casts away its anti-americanism and realises that China is the nation not to trust.

Does it have to be one or the other? Trump would step over an elderly nun to get to the last toilet roll in LIDL.

Trump will not be in the White House forever. The US will move on. They are an infinitely more reliable ally than China. I

f the EU had applied the same level of rigour to Chinese imports/exports and geopolitics as it does to American ones, this whole event might well have been very different.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 March, 2020 09:33
How? Unless this dies a seasonal death America looks just as likely as anyone to get hit by this, they're just behind the curve.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
18 March, 2020 11:08
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
The Bear
I only hope that whatever Union comes out of the end of this, casts away its anti-americanism and realises that China is the nation not to trust.

Does it have to be one or the other? Trump would step over an elderly nun to get to the last toilet roll in LIDL.

Trump will not be in the White House forever. The US will move on. They are an infinitely more reliable ally than China.

Agreed...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
hemington
18 March, 2020 12:54
Surely this was spread by travellers from China, some might be tourists but I bet a lot were business people from Western countries who go to China to get cheap supplies etc. Who's fault is that?

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
18 March, 2020 13:14
Quote:
hemington
Surely this was spread by travellers from China, some might be tourists but I bet a lot were business people from Western countries who go to China to get cheap supplies etc. Who's fault is that?

Given your context, I am not sure one can attribute fault to a particular agent but it could be regarded as a consequence of globalisation...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
18 March, 2020 13:14
Students from China at European Universities?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 March, 2020 13:21
Quote:
DanWiley
How? Unless this dies a seasonal death America looks just as likely as anyone to get hit by this, they're just behind the curve.

Or ahead of it, data is based on test results, he USA have tested far fewer people than other countries so we simply don't really know where they are on the curve.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
18 March, 2020 16:06
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
The Bear
I only hope that whatever Union comes out of the end of this, casts away its anti-americanism and realises that China is the nation not to trust.

Does it have to be one or the other? Trump would step over an elderly nun to get to the last toilet roll in LIDL.

China are certainly an enemy, but the US are not to be trusted, we are nothing more than a friend of convenience to be dumped as soon as we have nothing to offer them.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 March, 2020 16:28
Realistically aren't all countries out enemy, which country can we name as a friend?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
18 March, 2020 16:50
Talking about friends and enemies seems very simplistic.

Two countries can, and usually do, become richer working together as partners. I'm sure they still "spy" on each other and promote their own national interests. I'm not sure if I'd call either friends of enemies.

Both China and the US have the potential to make us richer of we work together. Both will be equally brutal in pursuit of their national interest.

What strikes me most is how sad that attitude is.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
18 March, 2020 17:57
My prediction is there is absolutely zero chance of the transition period ending on 31st December 2020.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
18 March, 2020 18:22
The £ is taking a beating!

€1.068
$1.1590

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
18 March, 2020 18:41
Chancellor needs to do more to appease the markets.

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
18 March, 2020 19:16
Quote:
woodpecker
My prediction is there is absolutely zero chance of the transition period ending on 31st December 2020.

Johnson still trying to play the hard man and saying he has no plans to change the legislation.

J

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
18 March, 2020 19:41
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Quote:
woodpecker
My prediction is there is absolutely zero chance of the transition period ending on 31st December 2020.

Johnson still trying to play the hard man and saying he has no plans to change the legislation.

J

No agreement better aligns with the UK objectives (whether you agree with them or not) than the EU ones. They'll want to build that imbalance into any extension (possibly by asking to remove the chance of further extensions).



Adopted Player:
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gaz59
gaz59
19 March, 2020 08:05
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
Quote:
woodpecker
My prediction is there is absolutely zero chance of the transition period ending on 31st December 2020.

Johnson still trying to play the hard man and saying he has no plans to change the legislation.

J

Sadly, another example of why he simply does not have the right qualities for the job in these circumstances

Dunno
Bod
19 March, 2020 11:52
Quote:
shipwrecked
So does the EU help countries that are unable to 'provide support' to their population and businesses like Greece for example. If so that's a massive drain on the richer members.

It seems some of the more enlightened European countries are prepared to help Greece, but mostly not, especially the richer ones. It'd be interesting to understand why not?

Poland/Austria Forces sent to Greece East border with Turkey



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/03/2020 11:54 by Dunno.

Dunno
Bod
03 April, 2020 18:55
Even Yanis Varoufakis supports Brexit now


T
"1st April 2020

‘I don’t think the EU is capable of doing anything to us other than harm’, said Yanis Varoufakis, the radical academic and one-time Greek finance minister. ‘I opposed Brexit but I have now reached the conclusion that the British did the right thing, even if they did it for the wrong reason.’


Despite that final caveat, this is quite the admission from Varoufakis. In the run-up to the EU referendum in 2016, this veteran of the Greek bailout crisis in 2015 became the principal spokesman for the remain-and-reform position beloved of Britain’s bourgeois left. He even launched something called the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 that February, and toured Britain thereafter, telling Eurosceptic leftists that the EU was a terrible, undemocratic set of institutions but that leaving it would be even worse. Then, after the referendum, he doubled down on Leavers, repeating the tired, elitist calumny that Brexit was a victory for ‘fascists, xenophobes and racists’, and that he and his Corbynite brothers-in-tweets, ‘like our grandfathers and grandmothers in the 1930s, had a moral duty to try and stop the fall into the abyss’. Because that’s what Brexit was to him and his cronies: the fascist abyss.

But it seems that even the bad faith of this most unlikely of Remainers has finally been shattered by the EU’s response to the coronavirus crisis. He has seen the drawbridges being pulled up, as Germany and France imposed export bans on medical equipment, deepening the crisis in Italy. And he has seen the callous, rule-bound approach of the Eurogroup, as German and Dutch finance ministers refused to countenance sharing the debt incurred by their poorer Eurozone neighbours – Spain, Italy and even France – arguing instead that the worst hit should receive loans from the European Stability Mechanism, complete with austerity-strings attached. Because that’s all that matters to the EU – preserving the integrity of the Eurozone.


All this has finally proved to Varoufakis something essential about the EU. Not just that it is a thoroughly neoliberal, anti-democratic set of institutions, but also that it is immutable. It will never become the progressive paradise its anti-Brexit cheerleaders said it could, if only the UK stuck with it, and reformed it from within. It is, in short, utterly unreformable."

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
04 April, 2020 18:09
Quote:
Bod
Even Yanis Varoufakis supports Brexit now

T
"1st April 2020

‘I don’t think the EU is capable of doing anything to us other than harm’, said Yanis Varoufakis, the radical academic and one-time Greek finance minister. ‘I opposed Brexit but I have now reached the conclusion that the British did the right thing, even if they did it for the wrong reason.’


Despite that final caveat, this is quite the admission from Varoufakis. In the run-up to the EU referendum in 2016, this veteran of the Greek bailout crisis in 2015 became the principal spokesman for the remain-and-reform position beloved of Britain’s bourgeois left. He even launched something called the Democracy in Europe Movement 2025 that February, and toured Britain thereafter, telling Eurosceptic leftists that the EU was a terrible, undemocratic set of institutions but that leaving it would be even worse. Then, after the referendum, he doubled down on Leavers, repeating the tired, elitist calumny that Brexit was a victory for ‘fascists, xenophobes and racists’, and that he and his Corbynite brothers-in-tweets, ‘like our grandfathers and grandmothers in the 1930s, had a moral duty to try and stop the fall into the abyss’. Because that’s what Brexit was to him and his cronies: the fascist abyss.

But it seems that even the bad faith of this most unlikely of Remainers has finally been shattered by the EU’s response to the coronavirus crisis. He has seen the drawbridges being pulled up, as Germany and France imposed export bans on medical equipment, deepening the crisis in Italy. And he has seen the callous, rule-bound approach of the Eurogroup, as German and Dutch finance ministers refused to countenance sharing the debt incurred by their poorer Eurozone neighbours – Spain, Italy and even France – arguing instead that the worst hit should receive loans from the European Stability Mechanism, complete with austerity-strings attached. Because that’s all that matters to the EU – preserving the integrity of the Eurozone.


All this has finally proved to Varoufakis something essential about the EU. Not just that it is a thoroughly neoliberal, anti-democratic set of institutions, but also that it is immutable. It will never become the progressive paradise its anti-Brexit cheerleaders said it could, if only the UK stuck with it, and reformed it from within. It is, in short, utterly unreformable."

He always did.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

gaz59
gaz59
04 April, 2020 21:38
All this based on an article in what reputable journal exactly?

John Tee
John Tee
05 April, 2020 09:41
The EU will remain popular among member states all the while the perceived benefit is there. For some states that is in net subsidy but it is a fine balance of the books.

I think the next few years will be defining.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 April, 2020 11:06
[www.cnbc.com]

The wealthier parts of the (Northern) EU not too eager to share debt from CV-19 with the more economically strained (Southern) parts of the EU it seems.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
06 April, 2020 09:31
That's why European Union will not ever work. Too much self interest and looking after number one and no help for the weaker partners. The sooner we break free completely, the better.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

gaz59
gaz59
06 April, 2020 09:40
"Too much self interest and looking after number one and no help for the weaker partners."

Once this virus lockdown is fully over take a trip around the remote highlands in Scotland and see the number and quality of important projects, community, economic and business all funded through the EU. My friends in Wales say the same is true there

London may not miss the EU but Scotland and Wales certainly will and I reckon the North of England will come to miss the EU a lot more than they thought in the referendum

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 April, 2020 10:06
Even if it were true the solution is hardly drop those weaker partners in it by leaving, being totally self-interested and offering no help.

If you haven't picked up that we need to be coming together as a world over the last month then I can't see what it will take.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 April, 2020 10:26
Quote:
DanWiley
Even if it were true the solution is hardly drop those weaker partners in it by leaving, being totally self-interested and offering no help.
If you haven't picked up that we need to be coming together as a world over the last month then I can't see what it will take.

You mean like Germany has abandoned the Southern Europe members to be an economic wasteland as a result of the virus?

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 April, 2020 10:31
Has it?

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
06 April, 2020 10:35
Whichever side of the argument you are on and to be honest I'm bored of the argument, its clear that sovereign countries have been dealing with this in a sovereign way.

I make no comment on whether that's good or bad.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 April, 2020 10:39
Quote:
DanWiley
Has it?

Yes, Germany along with Holland is blocking the concept of a corona bond requested by Southern Europe to help them recover.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 April, 2020 10:42
Possibly Dan, Spain-and-italy-have-been-abandoned-by-the-eu But you have to ask was the EU ever designed to offer support in a pandemic?

It might be an expectation as European members got more intertwined. I think that was the worry for Eurosceptics.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Dunno
Bod
06 April, 2020 10:57
Quote:
gaz59
All this based on an article in what reputable journal exactly?

Which are the "reputable" journals you wish to reference?
Only those that conform to D-Notice legislation?



Yanis explains what would happen 3 years ago.



"“It’s yours against mine.” That’s how Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister, put it to me during our first encounter in early 2015 – referring to our respective democratic mandates.

A little more than two years later, Theresa May is trying to arm herself with a clear democratic mandate ostensibly to bolster her negotiating position with European powerbrokers – including Schäuble – and to deliver the optimal Brexit deal.

Already, the Brussels-based commentariat are drawing parallels: “Brits fallen for Greek fallacy that domestic vote gives you stronger position in Brussels. Other countries have voters too,” tweeted Duncan Robinson, Brussels correspondent of the Financial Times. “Yep,” tweeted back Miguel Roig, the Brussels correspondent of Spanish financial daily Expansión. “Varoufakis’ big miscalculation was to think that he was the only one in the Eurogroup with a democratic mandate.”

In truth, Brussels is a democracy-free zone. From the EU’s inception in 1950, Brussels became the seat of a bureaucracy administering a heavy industry cartel, vested with unprecedented law-making capacities. Even though the EU has evolved a great deal since, and acquired many of the trappings of a confederacy, it remains in the nature of the beast to treat the will of electorates as a nuisance that must be, somehow, negated. The whole point of the EU’s inter-governmental organisation was to ensure that only by a rare historical accident would democratic mandates converge and, when they did, never restrain the exercise of power in Brussels."



What's Bruxelles priorities during the Virus Crisis??? Help member states in the worst situations?

No

EU fines Ital €8 million + daily interest of €80,000

Continue legal agtions against member states for NOT accepting their €6000/head bribes (who's money did they use)?

Good stuff eh?

(Sm3)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2020 11:06 by Bod.

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 April, 2020 11:14
Those articles are clearly written to appeal to your partiality and in any case are quite different, in substance if not rhetoric, from :

"You mean like Germany has abandoned the Southern Europe members to be an economic wasteland as a result of the virus?"

They are just signing a blank cheque for them. That's not the same thing.

Dunno
Bod
06 April, 2020 11:27
Quote:
DanWiley
Has it?

Oh yes, and with a vengeance

Italy recognises it's on its own

And its the poorer nations and NATO helping most although surprisingly this isn't reported by MSM - why?............where's the EU help???

Cuba sends medical teams to Italy

Turkey responds to NATO requests for assistance for Spain and Italy


Were you aware of this Dan?
It's really very strange don't you think??

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 April, 2020 11:41
No really, its the sort of nonsense you'll lap up and ask for more of it seems. Have a little think about it and think whether you really believe this will end as you suggest or you just want it to.

Dunno
Bod
06 April, 2020 11:53
https://media.giphy.com/media/TGvHZanK0Y8poe2lnA/giphy.gif

Come on Dan, all that's stated in the articles is the bleeding obvious - and whether you like it or not, is the truth, but obviously one that doesn't align with your philosophies,creeds and doctrines.

Emperor's clothes?

Onwards and upwards eh?

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 April, 2020 12:04
"the EU has erupted into open warfare between north and south."

Is that "the bleeding obvious" when the article basically goes on to say "Germany doesn't think issuing bonds to Italy and Spain is the way to go."

It's inflammatory journalism and you've bought right into it.

Dunno
Bod
06 April, 2020 13:08
Germany decides as always was, is and will be.

Just follow the money.

It's explicit and clear commentary .

That's my take.

(Sm3)

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 April, 2020 13:09
To be fair Dan the Italians were pretty Peed off:

On Tuesday, a group of 12 Italian politicians published an open letter in Germany’s Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper calling the Netherlands’ position devoid of “ethics and solidarity” and accusing the country of taking corporate tax revenue from other EU member states.

[www.ft.com]

Germany and the Netherlands have sought to clarify / amend / soften their position since that response however.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
06 April, 2020 13:21
Quote:
Bod
Germany decides as always was, is and will be.
Just follow the money.

It's explicit and clear commentary .

That's my take.

(Sm3)

Well, they probably think bankrolling it needs to amount to something.

Dunno
Bod
06 April, 2020 13:38
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
Bod
Germany decides as always was, is and will be.
Just follow the money.

It's explicit and clear commentary .

That's my take.

(Sm3)

Well, they probably think bankrolling it needs to amount to something.


Aye John - great philanthropy


The German Euro swindle

"Despite the recent rise of populist, anti-EU sentiment in Germany, Berlin seems determined to fight hard for the European Union and the common currency, the euro. Much high principle no doubt lies behind this commitment, but so also does much self interest. The German economy, most especially the German elite, has done very well for itself because of the union and the euro, not a little of it at the expense of the rest of Europe. One need not be a cynic to suspect that such less principled but nonetheless compelling motivations also direct Berlin’s commitment.

The euro was supposed to have had a universally helpful impact on all of Europe. Its designers claimed that it would give the EU stature to rival other powerful economies, the United States, Japan, and China in particular. All Europe would benefit, they said, from the trade increases that would follow as people and business shed worry over currency fluctuations, while the absence of currency risk would keep interest rates low, giving especially smaller, weaker members the advantage of cheaper credit that would encourage more investment and economic development. The trade and growth would deepen economic integration, give residents of the union a greater diversity of goods and services, and create a more unified and resilient European economy. It has of course not turned out this way. Instead the euro has locked in distorting and inequitable currency mispricings, giving some in the common currency, most notably Germany, great advantages over others.

These problems, in no small part, developed from the enthusiasm that accompanied the run up to the euro. High hopes for weaker economies, Greece, Spain, Portugal, and to a lesser extent Italy, bid up the values of their individual national currencies so that they joined the euro at values far above those supportable by their economic fundamentals. The overpricing gave these governments and their populations an inflated sense of their global economic purchasing power, encouraging spending and borrowing beyond their ability to support such behavior. Meanwhile, the inflated currency values put their producers at a competitive disadvantage. With separate currencies, reality would eventually have forced a depreciation that would have rectified both problems. But the euro, once established, locked in the mispricing.

For Germany, the opposite set of conditions prevailed. At the time, it was still suffering from the economic difficulties of its reunification. Its deutschemark was weaker than its economic fundamentals could otherwise have supported. Once that value was locked into the euro, German consumers acquired a deflated sense of their global buying power and so proceeded more cautiously than others in Europe. German producers meanwhile discovered that the euro had effectively locked in pricing for their goods and services well below levels with which they otherwise could have coped. International Monetary Fund (IMF) data suggests that at the euro’s inception, this currency distortion gave German industry a 6% competitive advantage compared with the country’s economic fundamentals......."

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 April, 2020 08:23
It seems almost funny now that there were so many arguments over the £30bn brexit Bill. Cv-19 is estimated to be costing the UK £2.5bn a day at the moment which for me puts that number into perspective. The bill to Furlough is over £40bn. I know it’s not either / or but the numbers lose their meaning after a while.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

DanWiley
DanWiley
08 April, 2020 09:45
I've said for a long time £30b was never a huge amount of money in governmental terms. 1/4er of our annual NHS bill, not easy to find maybe, but clearly doable. IF you really want brexit, we should have paid it, we're going to end up paying practically all of it anyway, and got a good deal.

But equally, we got back FAR more than the £8billion we put in, Germany isn't the only country that benefits. But nor is it a zero-sum thing, countries at the other economic end also gain from membership, everyone wins from that closer cooperation. You can't have it both ways either the nasty rich northern countries are exploiting the unfortunate, poorer ones or the noble, affluent northern are subsidizing the lazy, work-shy southern countries. Or, perhaps I'm saying, you can have it both ways, its just an overall benefit to both.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 April, 2020 11:20
Not only do we still need romanians to pick fruit, we now need to charter flights for them

[www.theguardian.com]

(Sm22)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/04/2020 11:31 by woodpecker.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
16 April, 2020 11:35
Quote:
woodpecker
Not only do we still need romanians to pick fruit, we now need to charter flights for them
[www.theguardian.com]

(Sm22)

Yes I though that this was pretty odd, when there must be loads of people in that area who are out of work at the moment.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 April, 2020 11:41
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
woodpecker
Not only do we still need romanians to pick fruit, we now need to charter flights for them
[www.theguardian.com]

(Sm22)

Yes I though that this was pretty odd, when there must be loads of people in that area who are out of work at the moment.

Just listening to JOB on LBC.

Apparently its becuase its temporary, you really need to live on site (which you pay for (rural) i.e. away from your home, and its piece work, so its hard to earn decent money unless youve done it for a long time. 35,000 uk intially applied.

John Tee
John Tee
16 April, 2020 11:45
I know a few people who have put themselves up for picking...
Will have to check their stories as to how they get on.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
16 April, 2020 12:02
Quote:
woodpecker
Not only do we still need romanians to pick fruit, we now need to charter flights for them
[www.theguardian.com]

(Sm22)

Seems like a lot of Brits really are lazy then.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
16 April, 2020 14:00
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
woodpecker
Not only do we still need romanians to pick fruit, we now need to charter flights for them
[www.theguardian.com]

(Sm22)

Yes I though that this was pretty odd, when there must be loads of people in that area who are out of work at the moment.

Just listening to JOB on LBC.

Apparently its becuase its temporary, you really need to live on site (which you pay for (rural) i.e. away from your home, and its piece work, so its hard to earn decent money unless youve done it for a long time. 35,000 uk intially applied.

Farmers strongly lobbying for EU migration, no desire to increase pay. Offering increased pay frowned upon. Not really affordable for those with any infrastructure to pay for (i.e. house) or seeking to replace lost earnings. Definitely the case in my home region (though my parents farm is livestock).

So we will bus in migrants, yet again, and the same people will claim it has no impact on wages, yet again.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

Dunno
Bod
16 April, 2020 15:11
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
woodpecker
Not only do we still need romanians to pick fruit, we now need to charter flights for them
[www.theguardian.com]

(Sm22)

Yes I though that this was pretty odd, when there must be loads of people in that area who are out of work at the moment.

Just listening to JOB on LBC.

Apparently its becuase its temporary, you really need to live on site (which you pay for (rural) i.e. away from your home, and its piece work, so its hard to earn decent money unless youve done it for a long time. 35,000 uk intially applied.

JOB was stellar in his Vets' role in the SpecSavers advert with the furry hat/cat before Christmas; quite a metaphor for his outlooks and POVs.

Minimum Wage for Agricultural Workers in UK found here

Agricultural Wage Board disbanded in 2013 - Thanks Dave/Nick




Minimum wage in Romania anyone????
























€450/month now
€145/month 2010
€ 75/month 2004


Reference here

MESSAGES->author
hemington
16 April, 2020 17:01
Nothing will change until us Brits realise that food costs money. It is too cheap and a far smaller proportion of our weekly expenditure than it was decades ago. Cheap food means low wages for agricultural staff (all round the world).

Supermarkets drive down prices by playing farmer against farmer and then reap the profits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/04/2020 17:03 by hemington.

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