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MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
25 June, 2020 13:31
Perhaps finally as a less influential country we will be able to get over ourselves, our obsession with WW2 and the empire, and the exceptionalism that's driven a lot of the pandemic management.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
25 June, 2020 13:54
I wonder what the same august organ will say when the Euro breaks up.............

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
25 June, 2020 13:56
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
I wonder what the same august organ will say when the Euro breaks up.............

Ive said this before (and I will say it again), but if i had a euro for every time ive heard its going to break up in the last 18.5 years, I would have stopped working years ago...

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 June, 2020 14:29
Quote:
woodpecker
Perhaps finally as a less influential country we will be able to get over ourselves, our obsession with WW2 and the empire, and the exceptionalism that's driven a lot of the pandemic management.

We weren't exceptional on our handling of the pandemic - we just were slower. Sweden were exceptional.

Besides every country has its exceptionalism and 'national myths'.
I'd rather we didn't try and pretend we have no history and that history doesn't matter and realised that something has to bind the country together or you just end up with 'liberalism on steroids' like America.

Still, I suspect that time will prove the conclusion of that UK-based Bank of America investor wrong. Of course, no one will remember what he said in 6 months, let alone a year.

Likewise, those suggesting the imminent break up of the EU. In the fullness of time, it will, but given the increasing centralisation that break up will be acrimonious and painful (as happens to all empires). I wouldn't want to be around when it happens.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
25 June, 2020 14:49
I didnt say we were exceptional i was referring to our exceptionalism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Exceptionalism is the perception or belief that a species, country, society, institution, movement, individual, or time period is "exceptional" (i.e., unusual or extraordinary). The term carries the implication, whether or not specified, that the referent is superior in some way.

When other countries saw hundreds of deaths we waited becuase we thought people wouldnt follow lockdown (wrong), we thought we should have a central app and it would be 'world beating' (wrong), we thought we should have british ventilators made by hoover men (wrong), we said masks were ineffective ((probably wrong and theyve changed it now), we implemented a quarantine 3 months late (pointless and now they are trying to get out of it with air bridges)

Im going to let them off of the Nightingales because in this case they did actually look at China and Italy rather than make it up, it didnt work, but it was reasonable.

The issues with PPE and testing is a bit different, its more that we have this very centralised approach to healthcare, PHE wants to control everything and we weren't prepared

The one thing that we have done well is the furlough and as we have commented it may be a bit too generous

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
25 June, 2020 14:53
Also and I know Im on the wrong site and I know I bang on about Switzerland, but on April 29th they decided that kids under 10 cant transmit the virus:

[news.sky.com]

Now I dont actually know how they came up with this, but it seems like we have a bit of a not invented here mentality - unless the british scientists find something then we can ignore it.

I assume that if they were wrong we would have heard about it by now.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
25 June, 2020 15:19
Woody

There's an old saying I like.............."a broken clock tells the right time twice a day"!

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
25 June, 2020 15:35
So by repeating the 'EU Breakup' adage often enough, you are bound to be right, eventually?

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 June, 2020 15:36
Quote:
woodpecker

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Exceptionalism is the perception or belief that a species, country, society, institution, movement, individual, or time period is "exceptional" (i.e., unusual or extraordinary). The term carries the implication, whether or not specified, that the referent is superior in some way.

Which country doesn't think there's is superior to the rest. Likewise which country underestimates their influence on the world stage.

Quote:
woodpecker

When other countries saw hundreds of deaths we waited becuase we thought people wouldnt follow lockdown (wrong),

I'm not sure this is the case (and is not a failing of exceptionalism).
We locked down 5 days later than Spain, 4 days later than France, 1 day later than Germany. Sweden did not lockdown - they were exceptional- and driven (I presume) by the idea that they knew better.

I think we put faith in predictive models (which as Brexit proved are more dangerous than good) at least as much as we put faith in the behavioural 'nudge' unit and that was an error. I suspect SAGE and the politicians who listened to them believed they had a perspicacity and insight that nowhere else had.

Yet the key failure was one of liberalism - we did not close our borders. But then none of the parties in parliament, Scotland or NI (or the EU) would have done so. It that sense we did not see the superiority we possess being an island like NZ did (and don't pretend they didn't try and bask in the glory of doing so).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 June, 2020 15:41
But what about the points that WP actually makes rather than the ones you want to answer? The ventilators, apps, etc?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
25 June, 2020 16:49
M the T if it happens......I am right if it doesn't Mr Wiley, Woodie and perhaps yourself are right.

More telling would be to a put a time frame on it..........

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
25 June, 2020 16:56
To be honest im not saying it won't i've just heard about its imminenet demise too many times in the past

[www.newstatesman.com] just


Another crisis, another round of headlines suggesting the European Union is about to disintegrate. Politico says that coronavirus “could break the EU”. Reaction, a news website, predicts “the looming collapse of the eurozone”. New York Magazine asks whether the pandemic will “tear the EU apart”. The only thing as durable as the EU itself is the belief in its imminent demise.

As early as 1953 the diplomat Robert Boothby told Tory backbenchers that the European Coal and Steel Community would fail. His view was echoed not just by Harold Macmillan in 1955 (who told MPs that the “Monnet concept” was “doomed to failure”), but also by Boothby himself three decades later in 1981, when, as a peer, he warned the House of Lords that “the EEC will collapse. It will break up of its own accord.” More predictions of doom followed with Danish and French “no” votes to further EU integration in 1992 and 2005 respectively – and then with the eurozonene crisis. In 2012 the respected CEBR think tank put the chance of the eurozone’s collapse at 99 per cent and declared its survival “a political impossibility”. Then came the migrant crisis of 2015 (Europe’s “breaking point”, according to the New York Times) and the Brexit vote in 2016, which Nigel Farage predicted would “trigger a domino effect” leading to the EU’s collapse.

.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
25 June, 2020 17:11
Interesting on that link to look at the article by Tim Farron (who he ?- Ed) sadly he could not have been more wrong or indeed prescient in one respect.........."we need to be more like Tony and Paddy".

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 June, 2020 17:15
You only need look at this thread and it's predecessor to see four years of it.

On the other hand, countries the size of the UK almost inevitably will become second class countries, if they choose isolation. You know we can't compete with: the US, China, the EU, India. We just won't have the financial clout.

Moreover the world is going to go in that direction. Technology will break down barriers and political unions will increasingly grow. It's been happening for thousands of years.

The EU isn't going anywhere and, in a very much more negative way, neither is the UK. We've thrown away our position of strength in that Union, I doubt we'll get it back on the same terms and we won't get a better place elsewhere.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
25 June, 2020 18:10
Never really understood why we have to compete what is the purpose? Is there an economic World Cup? In these crazy times, I'd be happy for a clean atmosphere, tolerant society, green energy, a decent health system and social care that works.
Security wise we could do with some armed forces as well!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DanWiley
DanWiley
25 June, 2020 18:22
I would say, given those are ideals of the UK and largely the EU, that is your reason to compete.

A clean environment doesn't seem a priority of the US. China not so hot on tolerance. Do you want those groups having it their way, or would you like to be part of a similarly sized economy that can push back?

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
25 June, 2020 19:08
Seen the news that the IMF think the UK will recover better in 2021 than EU especially France, Italy and Spain post Covid. I think the goal posts will change post Covid and countries will have to adapt very quickly to greener industry and services. I do believe the UK is in a good place post Covid.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
25 June, 2020 19:13
Being a second tier nation may not be a total disaster. Fewer people will want to come to the U.K. so we won’t need as many of the garbage characterless houses lacking in any architectural quality put up by all major building firms. No need to continue concerting over the countryside either.

Still hoping the upcoming depression will take down the large builders so we have a chance to replace them with smaller quality builders.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
25 June, 2020 20:15
Quote:
DanWiley
But what about the points that WP actually makes rather than the ones you want to answer? The ventilators, apps, etc?

The ventilators I have no problem with. The EU scheme was even more ineffective than our own. Medicine seemed convinced ventilation was the way to go (I disagreed). No government would have done differently.

The app is a farce and obvious one - as I've said through out. I think the failings are the same as the predictive modelling - public health thought the virus would bend to our will, politicians to afraid to say no. No country has a truly successful app but we set ourselves back a few weeks behind that low bar. I couldn't care if they said 'world-beating' or whatever. I generally don't bite at hyperbole.

Masks, again I'm not convinced. But if we were ever sincere about wearing them someone should have set an example from the beginning. There is a stigma and that takes time to break down. I don't see politicians of any hue tackling this.

Yet, despite all that, they are all problems that exist in other countries. If that's all because this country thinks it's better then why is it that we've repeated the failings of other countries? Do you really think the poor who voted for Conservative rather than Labour really know the first thing about Empire? Why did Sweden take a different road? Because they thought they're country deserved it? Do you think NZ's liberal class didn't enjoy basking in their glory? Are you naive enough to believe the EU doesn't believe in its own exceptionalism?

K-Nut
Bod
25 June, 2020 21:35
Merkel's furloughing system financed criminal businesses

EU Covid priority?Coordinating Covid Pandemic battle or bashing Hungary?

“They (EU) just simply cannot digest that there’s a government in the heart of Europe that concentrates on national interests, a government which is based on, let’s say, Christian democratic values, a government which considers the will of people as number one, and a government which definitely and openly goes against the liberal mainstream.”

FYI

(Sm72)








(Sm3)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/06/2020 21:36 by Bod.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
26 June, 2020 00:34
Quote:
Bod
Merkel's furloughing system financed criminal businesses
EU Covid priority?Coordinating Covid Pandemic battle or bashing Hungary?

“They (EU) just simply cannot digest that there’s a government in the heart of Europe that concentrates on national interests, a government which is based on, let’s say, Christian democratic values, a government which considers the will of people as number one, and a government which definitely and openly goes against the liberal mainstream.”

FYI

(Sm72)








(Sm3)

Russia Today, that well known bastion of unbiased reporting, is that really the best you can do?

I have to say, when I read your post, I assumed it was talking about the UK, not Hungary. Mirrors reflect, eh?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/06/2020 04:33 by joethefanatic.

K-Nut
Bod
26 June, 2020 10:18
Come now Joe, for the Pro EU constituency that predominate in Bath and contribute to COML I'm sure they will welcome more scrutiny of EU politics. This can only be a good thing?

Are the contents of the reports inaccurate regardless of the source? If not then please illuminate the falsehoods? I'd be happy to apologise.

Why is there no coverage of the similar instances of street unrest witnessed in the UK recently that also flared up across France, Germany and Belgium recently yet none witnessed in E.Europe?

You might question the credentials and motivations of RT, but you might do well to scrutinise these similar values held by the MSM in UK.

The sad demise of a drunk violent criminal drug user under as yet unascertained circumstances , far away 2 months ago, still figures daily as a source of news items, yet 3 innocent members of the Gay community, hacked to death by a foreign terrorist , 3 main station stops down the line from Bath Spa might as well have not happened 5 days later.

How does that work folks? I'm happy to understand more. Thankyou.

It's not just Merkel -Donald screws up as well

(Sm3)

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
26 June, 2020 10:45
Bod,

Can you tell me what the MSM is? Is it all the media in the UK? This is a genuine question, Russia Today clearly isn't, anything else?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/06/2020 11:31 by woodpecker.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
26 June, 2020 13:08
[en.wikipedia.org] - Mainstream Media, or [en.wikipedia.org] - this?

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
26 June, 2020 13:19
Quote:
Mike the Taxi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream_media - Mainstream Media, or [en.wikipedia.org] - this?

thanks clearly the second one!

K-Nut
Bod
26 June, 2020 17:33
It's good to have perspective don't you think folks?
Are the RT/Morning Star items valid or fake news? That's what I've been called out on?

Is the ongoing Floyd related coverage more pertinent and important than the Reading murders to a UK citizen who might become the next victim of a released illegal with identified security issues, freely on the streets? Both have relevance to our society but I know which of the two worries me most and I guess most of my neighbours, BUT obviously it is a minor detail to the guidance of the news we receive and doesn't merit the same forensic scrutiny?

Just asking?

(Sm72)

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
26 June, 2020 17:58
[www.bbc.co.uk] - Beeb Headline about Glasgow Killings - MSM OK?

K-Nut
Bod
26 June, 2020 20:04
Thanks MtM
(Sm3)

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
26 June, 2020 20:16
OK, it now appears that only the suspect was killed, shot by police, but six are in hospital with stab injuries, one of these, a policeman, is 'critical'.

JFPC
JFPC
26 June, 2020 20:52
Quote:
Bod
It's good to have perspective don't you think folks?
Are the RT/Morning Star items valid or fake news? That's what I've been called out on?

Is the ongoing Floyd related coverage more pertinent and important than the Reading murders to a UK citizen who might become the next victim of a released illegal with identified security issues, freely on the streets? Both have relevance to our society but I know which of the two worries me most and I guess most of my neighbours, BUT obviously it is a minor detail to the guidance of the news we receive and doesn't merit the same forensic scrutiny?

Just asking?

(Sm72)

Are you, in all seriousness, genuinely worried about being murdered by a "released illegal with known security issues"?
If so how do you cope with the stress from the worry you must have from all the things around you that are more likely to kill you? I take it you don't ever play sport? You must puree all your food to avoid choking and you obviously can't risk driving , do you dare risk going outside?

gaz59
gaz59
26 June, 2020 23:34
Uh, what has anything in these few posts recently got to do with Brexit?

K-Nut
Bod
26 June, 2020 23:56
Quote:
JFPC
Quote:
Bod
It's good to have perspective don't you think folks?
Are the RT/Morning Star items valid or fake news? That's what I've been called out on?

Is the ongoing Floyd related coverage more pertinent and important than the Reading murders to a UK citizen who might become the next victim of a released illegal with identified security issues, freely on the streets? Both have relevance to our society but I know which of the two worries me most and I guess most of my neighbours, BUT obviously it is a minor detail to the guidance of the news we receive and doesn't merit the same forensic scrutiny?

Just asking?

(Sm72)

Are you, in all seriousness, genuinely worried about being murdered by a "released illegal with known security issues"?

Ask the families of the 3 Gents in Reading?? Were they worried??


If so how do you cope with the stress from the worry you must have from all the things around you that are more likely to kill you? I take it you don't ever play sport? You must puree all your food to avoid choking and you obviously can't risk driving , do you dare risk going outside?



I'm concerned by any random victim being attacked or killed by anyone in any manner. If a pattern of execution of attacks is identified from a certain source or constituency then perhaps a more focused and forensic analysis and direct response is required?

If we look at a recent pattern we have unfortunate incidents today, in Reading, in Streatham in Feb, in Central London last Nov...................

That without the black gang killings across London and other major cities over the last years as reported.

The Police seem unable to deal properly with these hotspots because of political invertebrates worried that its better to stay silent for the sake of diversity regardless of whether the majorities in such constituencies crave peace and tranquility in their neighbourhoods

If we can't clear up these problems in our own back yard I think it hypocritical to posture about similar problems in other countries.

I operate production facilities across W.Africa suplying raw material commodities to Europe and US, and I can honestly state that I feel safer on the streets of Lagos, Accra or Yaounde than my last visit to Central London.

Please explain more about your concerns regarding my sporting, culinary, driving issues and propensity for agoraphobia . You seem a tad confused there.

Finally, given your decision to quote me, might you consider responding to the second line of that quotation, if you can? If not, might you advise why you'd prefer not to? I've highlighted it to keep it simple for you or any other contributor to focus on.

Thanks in anticipation

(Sm3)

K-Nut
Bod
27 June, 2020 00:25
Quote:
gaz59
Uh, what has anything in these few posts recently got to do with Brexit?

Many things Gaz, and I think you know it.

You read the linked articles?

(Sm3)

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
27 June, 2020 08:13
Quote:
Bod
It's good to have perspective don't you think folks?
Are the RT/Morning Star items valid or fake news? That's what I've been called out on?

Is the ongoing Floyd related coverage more pertinent and important than the Reading murders to a UK citizen who might become the next victim of a released illegal with identified security issues, freely on the streets? Both have relevance to our society but I know which of the two worries me most and I guess most of my neighbours, BUT obviously it is a minor detail to the guidance of the news we receive and doesn't merit the same forensic scrutiny?

Just asking?

(Sm72)

Stick to Reuters news, you only get the news facts reported with no editorial or bias. Any media outlet that has editorials is biased and has an agenda.

John Tee
John Tee
28 June, 2020 10:59
Quote:
Bod
Come now Joe, for the Pro EU constituency that predominate in Bath and contribute to COML I'm sure they will welcome more scrutiny of EU politics. This can only be a good thing?
Are the contents of the reports inaccurate regardless of the source? If not then please illuminate the falsehoods? I'd be happy to apologise.

Why is there no coverage of the similar instances of street unrest witnessed in the UK recently that also flared up across France, Germany and Belgium recently yet none witnessed in E.Europe?

You might question the credentials and motivations of RT, but you might do well to scrutinise these similar values held by the MSM in UK.

The sad demise of a drunk violent criminal drug user under as yet unascertained circumstances , far away 2 months ago, still figures daily as a source of news items, yet 3 innocent members of the Gay community, hacked to death by a foreign terrorist , 3 main station stops down the line from Bath Spa might as well have not happened 5 days later.

How does that work folks? I'm happy to understand more. Thankyou.

It's not just Merkel -Donald screws up as well

(Sm3)

You need to watch some foreign news channels and RT is a take ...
it has its own bias, as does Al Jazeera but it reports stuff we dont see.
I don't think the u.k news channels are that worthy these days.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
28 June, 2020 11:14
Quote:
John Tee

You need to watch some foreign news channels and RT is a take ...
it has its own bias, as does Al Jazeera but it reports stuff we dont see.
I don't think the u.k news channels are that worthy these days.

I agree the channels you quote have different views but their political bias is more than the more reputable uk news channels and its very subtle.
Embedded are some clearly valid facts but the mainstream has a political agenda of its own. I'd rather filter the UK stuff and dip in occasionally for perspective.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
28 June, 2020 13:37
I do the opposite because i find it easy to dicipher the points scoring on foreign outlets.
I think editorial from BBC, Sky and ITN is pretty poor.
Whoever lets Burley and Morgan have air space is after a reality tv take imv and maybe that is the goal, but jeez....

Unfortunately the BBC had a reputation that is long gone too.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
28 June, 2020 16:01
The once unbiased, truthful, proper reporting channel that the BBC o ce was and enjoyed a World wide reputation for the same, is now shot to pieces. It has been for some time and certainly showed up with the coverage over the Brexit vote and outcome which they still find unpalatable and do their utmost to undermine at every opportunity.

Their news editors and most of the reporters are Guardian reading, socialist, EU loving numptees who feel they must give/force their opinions on others and don't just report on the actual news. Also, they are so negative it is unbelievable that people manage to survive and continually harang and criticise anything the Government try to do. Don't get me wrong, not everything the Government do is right but it is not all wrong or catastrophic either. And by the way, do any of the broadcasters have anything positive to offer as alternatives?



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
28 June, 2020 17:31
They're are, broadly speaking, not trusted and I think that's really dangerous. Instead of reviewing the impact of that they double down and point to all their liberal cheerleaders on twitter and amongst their social groups - both of which are spectacularly unrepresentative.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
29 June, 2020 01:52
Quote:
Bathovalballer
The once unbiased, truthful, proper reporting channel that the BBC o ce was and enjoyed a World wide reputation for the same, is now shot to pieces. It has been for some time and certainly showed up with the coverage over the Brexit vote and outcome which they still find unpalatable and do their utmost to undermine at every opportunity.
Their news editors and most of the reporters are Guardian reading, socialist, EU loving numptees who feel they must give/force their opinions on others and don't just report on the actual news. Also, they are so negative it is unbelievable that people manage to survive and continually harang and criticise anything the Government try to do. Don't get me wrong, not everything the Government do is right but it is not all wrong or catastrophic either. And by the way, do any of the broadcasters have anything positive to offer as alternatives?

As someone who sees how the BBC is perceived in the US now and all around the world previously, I can say that it is much more highly regarded for the probity and lack of bias of its news reporting than the local news outlets.

The BBC World Service is deeply respected. Don't let the parochial hatreds of the UK blind you to how much the persona of the UK is bound up with the soft power of the BBC. It is literally all most people in the world know or hear about the UK.

I have had many recent conversations with friends from around the world that start with variations on the theme of "Boris Johnson, WTF?". The BBC helps balance out our abysmal politicians a bit. As we go forward on our great Brexit adventure, we're going to need all the global leverage we can get. The BBC is a long lever and a smart government would recognize that.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/06/2020 02:25 by joethefanatic.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
29 June, 2020 09:11
Of all the presentation of the news the world service is by fas the most balanced. Also after 01.00 in the UK the BBC broadcast the news from their Asian news team (SE Asia), it is extremely good reporting.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
29 June, 2020 09:35
I note that even the BBC are getting rid of the Today program editor, mainly because of her recent leadership on various topics. Hopefully followed by some of the presenters.

The Today program used to be excellent and I always enjoyed it when on my work travels. Redhead, Timpson and co and even the God slot with people like Bishop of Millwall, Big Jim and Lionel Bleu, were great imparters of news and issues. They were never afraid to tackle difficult subjects and question their guests who regularly included Cabinet rank MPs without fear or favour and did it without imposing their own biased opinions. Just informing the populace what was going on, or increasing knowledge. A hugely better experience than the current fare.

When on holiday, I often tune in to the World service and do agree with you Joe it is generally an excellent view or listen, without the presenters trying to impart their opinions on the viewer/listener. Just inform people what is going on in a generally unintrusive way and let the recipiant make up their own mind. Much better by half. Some of their presenters are top notch and should be transferred to the main BBC channels and outlets.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
29 June, 2020 14:07
Quote:
shipwrecked
Of all the presentation of the news the world service is by fas the most balanced. Also after 01.00 in the UK the BBC broadcast the news from their Asian news team (SE Asia), it is extremely good reporting.

I would second that.

I wonder if part of the problem is that we expect our news presenters to be personalities and, in turn, they behave like that.

Those reporters on the World Service and in the deep of night are complete unknowns and they don't seem to carry any baggage when reporting the news.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

John Tee
John Tee
29 June, 2020 15:17
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
shipwrecked
Of all the presentation of the news the world service is by fas the most balanced. Also after 01.00 in the UK the BBC broadcast the news from their Asian news team (SE Asia), it is extremely good reporting.

I would second that.

I wonder if part of the problem is that we expect our news presenters to be personalities and, in turn, they behave like that.

Those reporters on the World Service and in the deep of night are complete unknowns and they don't seem to carry any baggage when reporting the news.

I think someone may have decided we want personalities to give us the news, not sure we want it.
The today program on R4 was always good, Humphries, Robinson and Webb etc...all good. I don't think they need directing or editorial driving them...

The likes of Morgan and Burley and including Mattis are just embarrassing imv. Morgan basically interviews himself, Burley is just awful and Mattis is an instand switchoff.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
04 July, 2020 13:11
Waitrose has vowed to never sell chlorine washed chicken or hormone injected beef if the UK strikes a post-Brexit trade deal with America. Fears have been raised over food products produced under lower welfare and hygiene standards making their way across the pond now Britain has left the European Union.



[metro.co.uk]

John Tee
John Tee
04 July, 2020 14:57
in all seriousness...this is the stance many outlets can take.
I've long been picky about meat content so if governements dont or cant take a stand, then customers still can...

I think shopping chains will take note over what customers want and if certain stuff doesn't sell, why would they stock it.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
06 July, 2020 12:51
It's restaurants, take-aways etc you can't control

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
06 July, 2020 14:35
Quote:
hemington
It's restaurants, take-aways etc you can't control

The problem isn't the fresh meat from the shop or the butcher's, it's what goes into the areas hemington says above but also those horrendous packaged meals and processed goods.

We all want our food to cost less and yet we demand standards to be higher. We're pushing up the cost of fresh food and encouraging more people to eat cheap processed foods and things like sugar, which is far cheaper than meat.

It needs to go further than labelling.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

John Tee
John Tee
06 July, 2020 16:40
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
hemington
It's restaurants, take-aways etc you can't control

The problem isn't the fresh meat from the shop or the butcher's, it's what goes into the areas hemington says above but also those horrendous packaged meals and processed goods.

We all want our food to cost less and yet we demand standards to be higher. We're pushing up the cost of fresh food and encouraging more people to eat cheap processed foods and things like sugar, which is far cheaper than meat.

It needs to go further than labelling.

Those outlets will have to cater for the discerning buyer too.
If you dont know and they cant tell you, you have a choice to make.
Many restaurants already do this with Gluten and Diary.

Yep, not simple but not impossible either..

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 July, 2020 17:42
It's lovely you've got the choice to buy expensive food John, not all people do and already fairly mediocre meat is pretty dear. This won't change that, people will just pay the same for worse.

John Tee
John Tee
06 July, 2020 18:59
I dont think the govt are going to say we arent going to buy Chlorinated chicken...but id expect major chains to detail it.

My number one rule is to buy British meat...but sure, the age old problem has been what you dress it up in...

And even pubs will advertise where they source meet from..
For sure we need to eat less@#$%&and i recall years ago a chef saying he would never eat meat he didn't personally buy from the butcher.
Fish and chips shops even market where they get their fish from..

So, out with processed and in with home prep.
The young guys at work do that more, surprisingly...although they still might go for a subway..lol.

One thing Brexit is going to have to 'capitalise' on is home produce.
It takes a mind set, but not impossible ..?

BBandW
BBandW
12 July, 2020 13:10
£750m to be spent on border controls announced by the government - what an utter waste

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
13 July, 2020 09:09
Quote:
BBandW
£750m to be spent on border controls announced by the government - what an utter waste

I heard Gove dribbling about how it would be the 'most effective border' in the world. This world beating/best in thw world stuff must be Cummings, it seems to apply to everything now.

From the TImes:
The government is launching an information campaign with warnings about passports, travel insurance, mobile phone charges and travelling with pets. The initiative, “The UK’s new start: let’s get going”, features guidance for visiting the EU from January 1. Much of the information is aimed at raising awareness of higher costs, with travel insurance premiums expected to rise once eligibility for free healthcare in EU countries ends.

The public will be urged to check for mobile phone roaming charges in the EU and told that they will need six months of validity on their passport to travel. Pet owners will be advised to give vets four months’ notice before trying to take an animal to Europe.



[www.thetimes.co.uk]

I think everyone agrees that there are going to be a lot of issues arising out of leaving the EU, but we must try to think of the amazing upsides of leaving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/07/2020 09:20 by woodpecker.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
13 July, 2020 09:47
Short of trying to rerun the referendum (and let's not do that again) what do you expect the government to do re: the border?

Even if we signed up to EFTA there would be border controls. We have to pay for the infrastructure for those controls or accept the disruption for trying to use the existing controls we have for a much larger volume of trade.

I'd rather we spent the money.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
13 July, 2020 09:51
Quote:
The Bear
Short of trying to rerun the referendum (and let's not do that again) what do you expect the government to do re: the border?
Even if we signed up to EFTA there would be border controls. We have to pay for the infrastructure for those controls or accept the disruption for trying to use the existing controls we have for a much larger volume of trade.

I'd rather we spent the money.

I expect them to do what they need to do. However as I have always thought leaving the EU was a pointless waste of time and money, I reserve the right to take the pi$$ every time I spot them wasting time and money pointlessly.

DanWiley
DanWiley
13 July, 2020 10:20
The fact they've brexit themselves into a stupid corner doe doesn't excuse them from the consequences of backing themselves into a stupid corner.

warrenball
warrenball
13 July, 2020 12:43
It is clear the government is going to get stitched up by the EU, USA and almost everyone else. Just look at the people in cabinet positions, striving for mediocrity and in the most part failing lamentably.

K-Nut
Bod
13 July, 2020 21:08
Quote:
warrenball
It is clear the government is going to get stitched up by the EU, USA and almost everyone else. Just look at the people in cabinet positions, striving for mediocrity and in the most part failing lamentably.

Which ones, and how do you mean??

(Sm3)

DanWiley
DanWiley
13 July, 2020 21:54
We're not in any of their clubs, why would they do anything to help us?

The difference when we were in the EU was we were a part of it. When they helped us they helped themselves.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
13 July, 2020 22:24
I'm still hoping the EU will decide that all of us who were citizens of the EU prior to Brexit have been deprived without due process.

And today's announcements would have been laughable if they weren't so pathetic. 6 months to go and this is the best they've got? "Frictionless trade", me ar$e.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/07/2020 22:28 by joethefanatic.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
14 July, 2020 09:00
Ministers confirmed yesterday that companies trading between the UK and the EU would have to fill in approximately 400 extra customs declarations a year. In total, an estimated 215 million will have to be completed by businesses trading with the EU, with an equivalent number filled in by companies in Europe.

The estimated cost of completing a customs declaration ranges between £20 and £56 for imports, and £15 and £46 for exports. The final price tag will vary according to the size of each business and volume of trade.

HMRC estimated in 2018 that each form would cost an average of £32.50 to complete, bringing the overall cost for businesses to more than £13 billion a year.


[www.thetimes.co.uk]

Our net contribution to the EU was £9Bn.....

Hahahahah!

gaz59
gaz59
14 July, 2020 10:10
Well that has just reworked the definition of 'frictionless'

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
14 July, 2020 10:40
Quote:
woodpecker
Ministers confirmed yesterday that companies trading between the UK and the EU would have to fill in approximately 400 extra customs declarations a year. In total, an estimated 215 million will have to be completed by businesses trading with the EU, with an equivalent number filled in by companies in Europe.
The estimated cost of completing a customs declaration ranges between £20 and £56 for imports, and £15 and £46 for exports. The final price tag will vary according to the size of each business and volume of trade.

HMRC estimated in 2018 that each form would cost an average of £32.50 to complete, bringing the overall cost for businesses to more than £13 billion a year.


[www.thetimes.co.uk]

Our net contribution to the EU was £9Bn.....

Hahahahah!

It's a wonder that countries with borders make money... Which of course they do because border expenditure is not one way expenditure unlike our net contribution (obviously the gross contribution is larger).

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
17 July, 2020 09:22
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
The Bear
Short of trying to rerun the referendum (and let's not do that again) what do you expect the government to do re: the border?
Even if we signed up to EFTA there would be border controls. We have to pay for the infrastructure for those controls or accept the disruption for trying to use the existing controls we have for a much larger volume of trade.

I'd rather we spent the money.

I expect them to do what they need to do. However as I have always thought leaving the EU was a pointless waste of time and money, I reserve the right to take the pi$$ every time I spot them wasting time and money pointlessly.

woodpecker - to clarify, I presume you mean the UK in the sentence above? If so in the interest of balance will you be doing the same every time you spot the EU wasting time and money pointlessly?



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
17 July, 2020 10:08
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
The Bear
Short of trying to rerun the referendum (and let's not do that again) what do you expect the government to do re: the border?
Even if we signed up to EFTA there would be border controls. We have to pay for the infrastructure for those controls or accept the disruption for trying to use the existing controls we have for a much larger volume of trade.

I'd rather we spent the money.

I expect them to do what they need to do. However as I have always thought leaving the EU was a pointless waste of time and money, I reserve the right to take the pi$$ every time I spot them wasting time and money pointlessly.

woodpecker - to clarify, I presume you mean the UK in the sentence above? If so in the interest of balance will you be doing the same every time you spot the EU wasting time and money pointlessly?

Maybe I would or could have if we were still in it, but we arent so no.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
17 July, 2020 10:19
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
woodpecker
Ministers confirmed yesterday that companies trading between the UK and the EU would have to fill in approximately 400 extra customs declarations a year. In total, an estimated 215 million will have to be completed by businesses trading with the EU, with an equivalent number filled in by companies in Europe.
The estimated cost of completing a customs declaration ranges between £20 and £56 for imports, and £15 and £46 for exports. The final price tag will vary according to the size of each business and volume of trade.

HMRC estimated in 2018 that each form would cost an average of £32.50 to complete, bringing the overall cost for businesses to more than £13 billion a year.


[www.thetimes.co.uk]

Our net contribution to the EU was £9Bn.....

Hahahahah!

It's a wonder that countries with borders make money... Which of course they do because border expenditure is not one way expenditure unlike our net contribution (obviously the gross contribution is larger).

That cost is just admin, not border transactions.

John Tee
John Tee
17 July, 2020 15:39
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
woodpecker
Quote:
The Bear
Short of trying to rerun the referendum (and let's not do that again) what do you expect the government to do re: the border?
Even if we signed up to EFTA there would be border controls. We have to pay for the infrastructure for those controls or accept the disruption for trying to use the existing controls we have for a much larger volume of trade.

I'd rather we spent the money.

I expect them to do what they need to do. However as I have always thought leaving the EU was a pointless waste of time and money, I reserve the right to take the pi$$ every time I spot them wasting time and money pointlessly.

woodpecker - to clarify, I presume you mean the UK in the sentence above? If so in the interest of balance will you be doing the same every time you spot the EU wasting time and money pointlessly?

Maybe I would or could have if we were still in it, but we arent so no.

Of course not...what is the cost of moving down to Strasbourg every year...114m eu and counting?
Can anyone recall the reason for this indulgence and how long it has been happening.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
17 July, 2020 17:01
It has been happening right from inception as a sop to General de Gaule and a trade off with the Germans

John Tee
John Tee
17 July, 2020 18:03
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 July, 2020 20:29
Quote:
John Tee
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

Not really any of our business any more, is it?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
17 July, 2020 21:17
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
John Tee
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

Not really any of our business any more, is it?

For those of us who voted to leave thankfully it is not, for those of a different view it might be a passing interest...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 July, 2020 22:01
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
John Tee
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

Not really any of our business any more, is it?

For those of us who voted to leave thankfully it is not, for those of a different view it might be a passing interest...

I was, and am, a staunch remainer. I regard us criticising the EUs budget process as being like a small child with their nose pressed to the sweet shop window.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 July, 2020 22:08
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
John Tee
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

Not really any of our business any more, is it?

For those of us who voted to leave thankfully it is not, for those of a different view it might be a passing interest...

I was, and am, a staunch remainer. I regard us criticising the EUs budget process as being like a small child with their nose pressed to the sweet shop window.

Then your Mum comes along and puts you on a healthy diet of broccoli and carrots and you grow up to live in Honolulu winking smiley



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 July, 2020 22:26
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
John Tee
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

Not really any of our business any more, is it?

For those of us who voted to leave thankfully it is not, for those of a different view it might be a passing interest...

I was, and am, a staunch remainer. I regard us criticising the EUs budget process as being like a small child with their nose pressed to the sweet shop window.

Then your Mum comes along and puts you on a healthy diet of broccoli and carrots and you grow up to live in Honolulu winking smiley

And maybe the pandemic will turn out to be "Mum" in this parable. But I think it is much more likely to be the climate crisis. Personally, I believe Hawaii will remain liveable for about another 10 years. Then we move to coastal Oregon. We already have the location picked out.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 July, 2020 23:01
Oregon, well its away from fault lines so thats a plus but its empty isn't it or is that Wyoming? Then perhaps that what your looking for. Hope it works out.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
18 July, 2020 00:24
Quote:
joethefanatic
Personally, I believe Hawaii will remain liveable for about another 10 years. Then we move to coastal Oregon. We already have the location picked out.

Do you want to make a bet about that?



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
18 July, 2020 00:35
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
joethefanatic
Personally, I believe Hawaii will remain liveable for about another 10 years. Then we move to coastal Oregon. We already have the location picked out.

Do you want to make a bet about that?

That we move to Oregon in the next 10 years?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
18 July, 2020 14:18
Are you retired Joe the F?

John Tee
John Tee
18 July, 2020 14:40
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Clarkey3k
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
John Tee
I think it was part of a treaty from 1992 so at least an activity since 1997...so 25 years.
And as part of a treaty it needs a unanimous decision..which of course, the French would never agree to.

Tbf, i think everyone agrees it is a complete nonsense bar the french...but it would take another massive concession to rip it up..
and good luck getting anyone to pay for it..
I think the EU budget will be fun and games as it is...i dont think they have agreed the next one yet..?

Not really any of our business any more, is it?

For those of us who voted to leave thankfully it is not, for those of a different view it might be a passing interest...

I was, and am, a staunch remainer. I regard us criticising the EUs budget process as being like a small child with their nose pressed to the sweet shop window.

I criticised it at the time...always knew it was pandering to the French and an example of what the EU as a political entity, was a hopeless thing. But sure, i dont care now, but will watch with interest at the mad scramble for funds and just hope we dont get caught up in it...

John Tee
John Tee
18 July, 2020 14:42
Oregon or Wyoming sound cool to me...not that I've been there, but mountains are a good start..

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
18 July, 2020 19:34
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Are you retired Joe the F?

Well, that was the plan but its hard to tell. I am currently working in 3 separate businesses and I volunteer with marine conservation organizations. But I don't have a normal 9-5, no.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

warrenball
warrenball
18 July, 2020 22:28
I may be in for a real shock come January, but we have imported and exported for over 30 years to/from countries within and outside the EU. Different countries require different documents, most just need a commercial invoice, it is not a big deal and the costs are nowhere near those quoted in the Times. I just do not see where the explosion of documentation is going to come from?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
19 July, 2020 17:23
I have to say Warrenball a company I am involved with exports to 60 countries and imports from six countries and they seem to think everything is going to be fine...............some people on'ere would of course say they are naive fools!

gaz59
gaz59
19 July, 2020 20:46
BSJ, in our exchanges I've come to respect and appreciate your views and take on the current issues of interest though obviously we have different perceptions of what will/won't work

This one though leaves me speechless. How on earth will everything be "fine" come Brexit

Even Gove is now saying there will be £millions cost on checks with goods to and from NI. A sum that exceeds the unicorn figure we were promised for the NHS

The massive Lorry Park being built at Ashford ... etc ... etc

You say "they seem to think everything is going to be fine" so who the flippin eck are "they"?

And when you say "some people on'ere would of course say they are naive fools!"

a) you're dead right there

and

b) you probably had me down as one of those suspects so I would hate to disappoint you (Sm128)

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
20 July, 2020 00:08
Gaz

You will appreciate with investments in some 200 companies our two critical issues at the moment are Covid.........by some distance and of course Brexit which has now been discussed for just over four years.

Our companies have been planing for this for all of that time........we ask them about the implications and they seem much more relaxed now than three years ago.

Again something else we will have to see on!

warrenball
warrenball
20 July, 2020 09:47
Gaz, I think you have to distinguish between how businesses react and how the government reacts. Businesses are used to trading and between the willing buyer/seller they can usually work things out and with a minimum of fuss.

The government is a different matter, often inefficient, the normal answer is to throw money at a problem and because they often don't seem to know what they are doing you hear these stories of huge amounts being spent, often for no real benefit. The ground nut scheme revisited.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
20 July, 2020 12:37
It is interesting just rolling on a few years.

Two or three years ago Airbus were saying that if there was no deal then they would have to stop manufacturing wings in the UK and would source these elsewhere.

Somebody who had retired from the company came on 'ere at the time and said this was normal strategy out of Toulouse trying to push a government for more...............cooperation (gifts of money!).

The country touted at the time where the manufacture of the wings was going to go to...............(wait for it)..............................................China.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
20 July, 2020 16:25
I get the impression that plane construction won't be happening much at all anywhere.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
20 July, 2020 18:51
Precisely!!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
21 July, 2020 09:06
Major funding package agreed.

Real sign of the EU pulling together in the face of a potential EU crisis.

Another step on the march to federalism with the ECB becoming effectively a sovereign debt issuer.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
21 July, 2020 09:37
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Major funding package agreed.
Real sign of the EU pulling together in the face of a potential EU crisis.

Another step on the march to federalism with the ECB becoming effectively a sovereign debt issuer.

I wouldn't call it a march to federalism as they managed to bring down the number issued as grants, strengthened the rebate system, did nothing to address their rule of law concerns and no conditions on environmental good practice all for 0.7% of GDP and the arguments about the mechanism of repayment put off to later.

It has probably increased the likelihood of monetary union but this won't bring the EU nations closer together nor will it be convincing to the populations of those countries most affected.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
21 July, 2020 10:30
I think Bear if they move to monetary union then being a Federal State has already happened.

The ECB issuing EU debt is, in my view, a very big step.

John Tee
John Tee
21 July, 2020 13:08
Smaller than planned and the principle objectors bought off by promise of rebates..
Im not sure what it will achieve apart from hyping the 'agreement'

The project needs more money but rebates will not help in that regard. The awful..for some..obvious requirement is to ask the net beniftitters to up their subs. Which is fine and fair, but will they themselves be so keen?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
21 July, 2020 22:35
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Major funding package agreed.
Real sign of the EU pulling together in the face of a potential EU crisis.

Another step on the march to federalism with the ECB becoming effectively a sovereign debt issuer.

Agreed and good. Thats always been the direction of travel and now they don't have us to gum up the works. I'd thought the United States of Europe would take 50 years from Brexit but circumstances seem to be accelerating things appreciably. The non-Euro countries are going to have to decide whether to poop or get off the pot pretty soon.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
21 July, 2020 23:35
It appears Macron when really cross turned to Mark Ritter and accused him of taking over from Britain!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
21 July, 2020 23:40
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
It appears Macron when really cross turned to Mark Ritter and accused him of taking over from Britain!

Yep, the Netherlands have always been awkward bu66ers (I adored living and working there). But they are Europeans in a way in which the English are not (sadly from my POV).



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
21 July, 2020 23:59
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
It appears Macron when really cross turned to Mark Ritter and accused him of taking over from Britain!

Misread that as "...turned to Mark Ritter and accused him of taking over Britain!"

I need an awful lot of convincing that a Federal Europe is a good thing, aren't you looking at the two most influential states dictating to the remainder.
The lending of money seems to me to be similar to China's tactic of gaining influence through debt that was so soundly condemned on here recently.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
22 July, 2020 07:40
Rutte ..?

I think the Dutch, as part of the so called frugal 4 got their way since they pay a lot in.

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 July, 2020 07:43
I don't see a great deal of difference between that and other states, the richest areas of a block get the most influence, that gets balanced by giving all areas, broadly, even democratic influence. It's not perfect, but had to avoid the rich being influential. Sounds a lot like the UK. London basically has the power, but governments need to say least appear to respect, say, the North. Another parallel is it's not like the North doesn't benefit in its way from being in the same block as London.

DanWiley
DanWiley
22 July, 2020 07:49
Also it seems quite clear that to me that the world will come together in these superstates, technology makes it practically inevitable and the US, China, India and to a degree Europe are already there. That's quite a lot of the world and what are the rest going to do to compete? The same.

We seemed to have jumped out of that process at a point when we had a great position in it, we'd have been the 3rd rich power, on level terms of we wanted. What's our option now, being the 51st state?

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