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England WC Training Squad
Discussion started by BathMatt53 (IP Logged), 04 July, 2019 12:33
BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 July, 2019 12:33
England squad announced
Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 85 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 11 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 10 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 58 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 71 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 59 caps)
Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps)
Brad Shields (Wasps, 8 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 41 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps)
Mark Wilson (Sale Sharks, 13 caps)

Backs
Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby, 16 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 30 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 55 caps)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 40 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps)
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps)
Ben Spencer (Saracens, 3 caps)
Ben Teío (unattached, 18 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 85 caps)

In camp for rehabilitation
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps)

Well done the 6 who made it!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 12:35 by BathMatt53.

P G Tips
P G Tips
04 July, 2019 12:50
Tough on Tom Dunn.

IMHO he is every bit as good as Singleton (& better in the loose). Maybe bias of course - or is it just one of 'Eddie's Things'?


PG

dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865
04 July, 2019 12:56
Unlucky Tom Dunn, especially after his performance in the dodgeball.

Bravo RMcC. He must be really impressing. An amazing achievement.

opti
Optimist
04 July, 2019 13:11
Selection of Heinz over Care is just pathetic. Eddie sacrificing 70-odd cap experience rather than admit heís made a ridiculous stuff up on the 9 front for two years. Not much else to argue with, though iím surprised heís jettisoned Hartley.

Great news for our prospects that Marler is back in the fold too. It's effectively a 38-man squad now with the 3 x rehabs, so 7 to cut.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 13:18 by Optimist.

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
04 July, 2019 13:18
So a question for the experts: how indicative is this of the final squad?
Are there any outside this lot expected to come in?

PECK

MESSAGES->author
hemington
04 July, 2019 13:22
Plenty of time to get injured (particulalrly with Eddie at the helm).

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
04 July, 2019 13:24
Other than that?

HOP

opti
Optimist
04 July, 2019 13:25
Quote:
sid the seagull
So a question for the experts: how indicative is this of the final squad?
Are there any outside this lot expected to come in?

PECK

It's effectively 38 names - 21 forwards and 17 backs - so it would be very surprising if anyone else is genuinely in the frame. Care/Robshaw/Hughes/Hartley/Brown would, I guess, be on the reserve list in that they could slip fairly seamlessly in without too much pre-tournament camping.

16/15 split in the end or 17/14?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 July, 2019 13:25
Agree Opti. Although I do rate Heinz, Danny Care has played brilliantly this season and is the most exciting 9 England has. Ben Youngs hasn't really stood out since he starred against Australia a few years ago has he? Out of that lot I would start Spencer mind you.

Dombrandt missing out for Ludlam seems a bit odd as well, but I guess its all about who has looked good in the training camp thus far. With only 2 quins players in the squad, it does look as if Eddie isn't a fan (no Brown, Smith or Robshaw, not that they are a surprise).



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 13:30 by BathMatt53.

opti
Optimist
04 July, 2019 13:40
Agree about Spencer - I think he's going to leapfrog Youngs - just such a good athlete. I think both Dombrandt and Ludlow are just there for the next WC, which is one of Eddie's better points, that he'll have quite a few players who are familiar with the environment to step seamlessly into the boots of those that may retire after this WC.

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
04 July, 2019 14:17
Well Iím most pleased to see Cips there. If the formula is 17 down to 14 as Opti suggests
then considering the names on this list he has a good chance of going.

FLAP

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 July, 2019 14:21
Also just realised that Piers Francis is there and Alex Lozowski isn't? Crazy IMO given how well Lozowski performed this season and particularly in the big games.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

opti
Optimist
04 July, 2019 14:36
Eddie's take on the old boxing saw: 'I'll take a good big 'un over a good little 'un', is, 'I'll take a mediocre southern hemisphere 'un over literally any northern hemisphere 'un''.

P G Tips
P G Tips
04 July, 2019 15:16
He's consistently included Francis in squads but only capped him occasionally.

Lozowski seems to have paid for England's lacklustre showing against Japan (like Mercer).

PG

ballsout
ballsout
04 July, 2019 15:26
Good squad, well done Eddie. There aren't many surprises, which is a good thing.

[quote Optimist]Eddie sacrificing 70-odd cap experience rather than admit heís made a ridiculous stuff up on the 9 front for two years.

Erm, picking Care would be him not able to admit he made a mistake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 15:27 by ballsout.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
04 July, 2019 15:29
Piers Francis has actually had a pretty good season for Saints this year and it's not like our cup runneth over with 12s (his previous England performances notwithstanding). He has to be a likely contender for getting cut from the squad though.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 July, 2019 15:43
Quote:
hasta
Piers Francis has actually had a pretty good season for Saints this year and it's not like our cup runneth over with 12s (his previous England performances notwithstanding). He has to be a likely contender for getting cut from the squad though.

He isn't a bad player, but Lozowski was busy pulling up trees in a number of impressive performances for the league and euro champs (in multiple positions). Each to their own but I would have taken him - even if it would have meant that 8, 9, 10 and 12 were Saracens!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

opti
Optimist
04 July, 2019 16:03
Quote:
hasta
it's not like our cup runneth over with 12s

...not with 12s who actually stay fit for more than a match or two anyway. If Eddie gave up on the 'must have a bosher' at 12 strategy, he'd have 5 pretty good options in Loz, Piers, Slade, Faz and Devoto, and so much less chance of having to rebalance the side at the last minute when the inevitable Tuilagi/Teo injuries occur.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
04 July, 2019 17:29
Quote:
sid the seagull
Well Iím most pleased to see Cips there. If the formula is 17 down to 14 as Opti suggests
then considering the names on this list he has a good chance of going.

FLAP

I sincerely hope so and he could do a great job at 10, a good job at 12 and fill in at 15 if needed.

I would be surprised if our R McC makes the cut but his inclusion here will do wonders for his confidence and hopefully motivate him to keep improving. I echo the musings of others above re Dunn's exclusion...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

Change a life with a loan [www.deki.org.uk]

MESSAGES->author
hasta
04 July, 2019 22:53
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
hasta
it's not like our cup runneth over with 12s

...not with 12s who actually stay fit for more than a match or two anyway. If Eddie gave up on the 'must have a bosher' at 12 strategy, he'd have 5 pretty good options in Loz, Piers, Slade, Faz and Devoto, and so much less chance of having to rebalance the side at the last minute when the inevitable Tuilagi/Teo injuries occur.

I broadly agree Opti, but Slade and Loz have been much better playing at 13 with a bosher at 13...

bardofavon
bardofavon
06 July, 2019 12:55
england are now paying for relying on two such poor scrum halves as care and youngs- quite the worst choices of any international side in that position over the last 4 years.

youngs has been very lucky to have had so much international rugby ever since he came to attention playing for the u20s. he has had a miserable season and you suspect the rwc will be his swan song in a white shirt. he is already 29.

tuilagi has been very poor since returning to fitness. his defence has been abysmal. teo is just a tackle away from an injury. meanwhile at 13 jones has joseph, daly and slade options. if watson plays full back daly could slot back in at 13, his best position in my eyes.

it makes sense for slade to move to 12 as he has bulked up defensively and his left boot option gives jones the double playmaking option. i would prefer farrell/ slade over ford/ farrell.

has heinz been brought on board because jones actually intends to take cips? in which case whither ford?

my guess is that for all his claims that everything is going to plan, eddie actually remains conflicted about how his team- backs in particular- is going to line up. he'll try various combinations in the warm up games and these will give a clue as to his japan tactics. expect to see ruaridh play at 15 in one of them. eddie has already alluded to RM being the ideal utility player. does this mean nowell and RM are vying for the same spot?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2019 13:00 by bardofavon.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 July, 2019 16:28
Do you genuinely rate Care as a Ďpoorí scrum half? I would take him at Bath in a heartbeat.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
06 July, 2019 21:31
Quote:
BathMatt53
Do you genuinely rate Care as a Ďpoorí scrum half? I would take him at Bath in a heartbeat.

Club level, Care is a handful....he has continualy blown that at test level
Playing for 20 mins....ala wigglesworth isnt a plan for a rwc squad, imv.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 July, 2019 22:15
The guy has over 80 caps and he Ďhas continually blown it at test levelí? The WC requires a squad which includes players who wonít let you down - I think that Care can mix it with anyone and on form would have Spencer 1st choice (he is helped by 4, 5, 8 and 10 being sarries) with Care back up 9 tbh.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
07 July, 2019 00:16
Can you recall the last time he played a good 80 for England?
Youngs slow ball hasnt be eradicated and he has 80 odd caps too...??

ballsout
ballsout
07 July, 2019 09:17
Care isn't very good at Test level.

Youngs blows hot and cold.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 July, 2019 10:48
Quote:
John Tee
Can you recall the last time he played a good 80 for England?
Youngs slow ball hasnt be eradicated and he has 80 odd caps too...??

He has played 80 mins 5 times:

vs NZ in 07/08
vs France 6N 2010
vs South Africa 11/12
vs Ireland 6N 2014
vs Argentina 16/17

So his last 80 was away in Argentina in June 2017. Ruck gave him an 8/10 for that match:

9 Danny Care Englandís efficient attack owed a lot to Careís quick, accurate distribution. He also ran a great support line to score Englandís third try in the second half. 8/10

Ben Spencer has never played more than 10 mins for England and yet he would be my go to 9. This is why I am not an International coach I suspect!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 July, 2019 11:28
Quote:
John Tee
Can you recall the last time he played a good 80 for England?
Youngs slow ball hasnt be eradicated and he has 80 odd caps too...??

Out of interest do scrum halves play 80 mins at all these days?



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
07 July, 2019 12:58
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
John Tee
Can you recall the last time he played a good 80 for England?
Youngs slow ball hasnt be eradicated and he has 80 odd caps too...??

Out of interest do scrum halves play 80 mins at all these days?

Not so much, but Care hasn't been that player for England, plus he has been dropped in those 2 years.

I'd take Care if he could produce club form but he rarely has.

If you only take 2 9's try need to be able to control from the start.
That is why heinz is in the frame...in case Robo doesn't make it, imo

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
08 July, 2019 04:13
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
John Tee
Can you recall the last time he played a good 80 for England?
Youngs slow ball hasnt be eradicated and he has 80 odd caps too...??

Out of interest do scrum halves play 80 mins at all these days?

Not so much, but Care hasn't been that player for England, plus he has been dropped in those 2 years.

I'd take Care if he could produce club form but he rarely has.

If you only take 2 9's try need to be able to control from the start.
That is why heinz is in the frame...in case Robo doesn't make it, imo

I thought the cunning plan was for George to play at 9?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

opti
Optimist
08 July, 2019 08:57
I think Care is partly a casualty of Faz being 'Eddie on the pitch'. Care at 9 has his own creative ideas, can be close to genius level with this boot, and some of that inventiveness takes him off script. England, under Eddie and Faz, have become more scripted than a West End play, and Faz wants to run the show.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 July, 2019 09:37
So Eddie wants the creative ability of Ruaridh McC but not in the most crucial creative positions, oh well that kind of thinking is similar to Gatland's. I think it gets you through the 'regulation games' but comes up short when the crunch matches rock up.

I have the distinct impression that we will need a slice of luck at the RWC, we will see on Thursday if the extraordinary ability of England teams to exit World cups at the semi final stage persists. Sadly I think we will need that luck to 'go long' in this competition.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

gaz59
gaz59
08 July, 2019 09:57
Quote:
Optimist
I think Care is partly a casualty of Faz being 'Eddie on the pitch'. Care at 9 has his own creative ideas, can be close to genius level with this boot, and some of that inventiveness takes him off script. England, under Eddie and Faz, have become more scripted than a West End play, and Faz wants to run the show.

I reckon that is a harsh assessment. Eddie with Faz is about controlling the game. Care is a very busy player, always looking to play at a high tempo. When at his best this forces opposition into error and creates big space for himself and others but too many times it looks headless chicken stuff, well kind of Care-less actually!

But I would have him on the bench with spencer having the starting shirt. He then comes on to play to a plan and not a finely drafted script

opti
Optimist
08 July, 2019 10:11
Quote:
shipwrecked
So Eddie wants the creative ability of Ruaridh McC but not in the most crucial creative positions, oh well that kind of thinking is similar to Gatland's. I think it gets you through the 'regulation games' but comes up short when the crunch matches rock up.
I have the distinct impression that we will need a slice of luck at the RWC, we will see on Thursday if the extraordinary ability of England teams to exit World cups at the semi final stage persists. Sadly I think we will need that luck to 'go long' in this competition.

What we need most of all is luck around injuries - Mako, Billy V, Manu and Teo don't have the best recent records. The trouble is, they are quite inter-dependent. If you lose Billy, then Manu becomes more important and vice versa.

Awp24975
Awp24975
08 July, 2019 11:18
I like the look of the squad. The only change Iíd make up front is Dombrant for Ludlam, and possibly a change at hooker. I like Singleton as a player, not so keen on Luke Cowan Dickie and would rather Thacker or Hartley in the squad ahead of him.

Backs wise, would prefer Care over Heinz.

Will be interesting to see who makes the cut. Thinking Charlie and one of either Joe or Ruaridh will miss out, which whilst disappointing for them is better for us!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 July, 2019 11:40
Quote:
Awp24975

Thinking Charlie and one of either Joe or Ruaridh will miss out, which whilst disappointing for them is better for us!

Difficult one that. Given it will be little cup games in England, would it be more of an advantage for England players to be learning in the England set-up and experiencing the WC (whether they play competitive matches or not) or potentially not even playing in the little cup games? It could be better for Bath Rugby to have as many players there as possible, then come home - have a rest - then push on for the rest of the season. On the flipside they would be nice and rested and have had a chance to gel more in those months. I'm undecided!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
08 July, 2019 12:00
Care is like Faf in that he is always pushing....and taking risks, but England are risk adverse as personified by Farrell. That is also why they cant play off script.

England need to risk giving the ball away and get it back but they aren't very good at doing that...hence the 'plan A' and no plan B.
Basically jones doesn't trust the team, never has and hasnt addressed it in 4 years.
Hence we have been found out and not progressed.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 July, 2019 12:48
Quote:
John Tee
Basically jones doesn't trust the team, never has and hasnt addressed it in 4 years.
Hence we have been found out and not progressed.

We can't say that till after the RWC though can we, his policy is pick the best guys on form rather than pick class, he might prove to be spot on, who knows?



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
08 July, 2019 13:48
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
John Tee
Basically jones doesn't trust the team, never has and hasnt addressed it in 4 years.
Hence we have been found out and not progressed.

We can't say that till after the RWC though can we, his policy is pick the best guys on form rather than pick class, he might prove to be spot on, who knows?

Do you believe that..?
Anyone decent has taken the game to us and caused problems these last two years.

Dont agree he has picked on form either.
Robson never played.
Cipriani ignored many times.
Slade has only just come good.
Never looked at Roko or Goode.
Persisted with Ford and Youngs
Ignores Morgan.
Picks Shields ..

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 July, 2019 14:00
The point is though JT we don't know, he hasn't turned into a team oozing creative back play thats obvious but its all about winning a tournament, his fill the team with experience policy based on previous RWC winners might be right.

When the pressure is on some players go to pieces, Woodward discovered that and needed 2 goes at it.

What would you say if he won the thing? Just got to go with it now rather than the 'told you so' when we fail.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
08 July, 2019 16:29
I would have sacked him before the boks tour on the basis that we had fallen apart, but we didnt.
Yep, it will be a case of told you so ..I'm afraid.

Can we win despite him no, i really dont think we can.
I'll watch the RWC but have no expectations.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 July, 2019 17:08
I personally think that he has the experience vs talent ratio out of kilter in some cases. Quite a few of those players are a number of years past their prime (see Ben Youngs, Tuilagi) or 'average' in International talent terms (LCD, Shields, Francis).

Having said that, Eddie does have a very good 15 out of that lot - if they are all fit they could compete with most teams I would imagine. I guess the rest are good enough to beat USA and Tonga in the group stages.

Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 58 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 10 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 41 caps)

Ben Spencer (Saracens, 3 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps)

Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 32 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2019 17:09 by BathMatt53.

ballsout
ballsout
08 July, 2019 23:57
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
John Tee
Basically jones doesn't trust the team, never has and hasnt addressed it in 4 years.
Hence we have been found out and not progressed.

We can't say that till after the RWC though can we, his policy is pick the best guys on form rather than pick class, he might prove to be spot on, who knows?

Do you believe that..?
Anyone decent has taken the game to us and caused problems these last two years.

Dont agree he has picked on form either.
Robson never played.
Cipriani ignored many times.
Slade has only just come good.
Never looked at Roko or Goode.
Persisted with Ford and Youngs
Ignores Morgan.
Picks Shields ..

Robson blows hot and cold. He totally @£$@ the bed for England a year or so ago when given an opportunity.

Cipriani has two better 10s in front of him.

Roko and Goode aren't good enough for Test Rugby, as has been proven many times, especially for the latter.

Morgan? The guy is lazy a f and vanishes from matches. That has much has leaked out many times.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
09 July, 2019 00:46
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
John Tee
Basically jones doesn't trust the team, never has and hasnt addressed it in 4 years.
Hence we have been found out and not progressed.

We can't say that till after the RWC though can we, his policy is pick the best guys on form rather than pick class, he might prove to be spot on, who knows?

Do you believe that..?
Anyone decent has taken the game to us and caused problems these last two years.

Dont agree he has picked on form either.
Robson never played.
Cipriani ignored many times.
Slade has only just come good.
Never looked at Roko or Goode.
Persisted with Ford and Youngs
Ignores Morgan.
Picks Shields ..

Robson blows hot and cold. He totally @£$@ the bed for England a year or so ago when given an opportunity.

Cipriani has two better 10s in front of him.

Roko and Goode aren't good enough for Test Rugby, as has been proven many times, especially for the latter.

Morgan? The guy is lazy a f and vanishes from matches. That has much has leaked out many times.

Possibly but Ben Morgan is a far, far better 8 than Nathan Hughes, which he has amply demonstrated for Glaws this season. And for whom he seems to be able to last 80 minutes playing a much higher tempo game than England generally do.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2019 00:50 by joethefanatic.

opti
Optimist
09 July, 2019 09:20
Great analysis bo. Especially Roko, who has played 'many, many' Tests - well 4 actually and scored 4 tries.

And Robson, whose int career consists of 10 minutes against France and 20 minutes against Italy. Lucky that the news about Morgan's laziness has been 'leaked'. Otherwise, one might have to actually watch him to form an opinion.

ballsout
ballsout
09 July, 2019 10:26
Quote:
joethefanatic
And for whom he seems to be able to last 80 minutes playing a much higher tempo game than England generally do.

Playing 80 minutes against Worcester or Harlequins isn't the same as Test level.

Quote:
Optimist
Great analysis bo. Especially Roko, who has played 'many, many' Tests - well 4 actually and scored 4 tries.
And Robson, whose int career consists of 10 minutes against France and 20 minutes against Italy. Lucky that the news about Morgan's laziness has been 'leaked'. Otherwise, one might have to actually watch him to form an opinion.

Wow, a post by Optimist that isn't a bizarelly obsessive dig at Eddie Jones. Now I've seen it all.

Watch how Robson played when he came on against the Barbarians last year. Even for Wasps he's up and down.

Maybe, just maybe, an international head coach knows more than a forum full of Bath rugby fans. He might even have more experience dealing with these players than us too. Strange concept I know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2019 10:28 by ballsout.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
09 July, 2019 10:34
Morgan lazy?

[www.premiershiprugby.com]

'Ben Morganís 280 carries was the third-highest of anyone this season and he lines up at No.8'.

Lazy git he was beaten by 2 people!

Not sure what you mean by 'vanishes' from matches.

As for the comment about an International coach. Well of course he does. However this is a forum 'a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged'. If everyone agreed with everyone else it would be pretty boring and you (of all people) should be comfortable with that?



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

ballsout
ballsout
09 July, 2019 12:57
Quote:
BathMatt53
Morgan lazy?
[www.premiershiprugby.com]

'Ben Morganís 280 carries was the third-highest of anyone this season and he lines up at No.8'.

Lazy git he was beaten by 2 people!

Find the premiershiprugby.com report that says he was kicked out of an England training squad when Eddie took over because of his work ethic. There are some things you hear that aren't on official sites. He's had a good season playing for Gloucester though, well done him.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
09 July, 2019 13:16
Jones was named as the new England head coach on 20th November 2015. From what i have seen of him on the TV Morgan is a totally different player now than he was nearly 4 years ago?



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

opti
Optimist
09 July, 2019 14:36
Quote:
ballsout
Find the premiershiprugby.com report that says he was kicked out of an England training squad when Eddie took over because of his work ethic

You find it if you want to give some substance to your opinion.

Quote:
ballsout
There are some things you hear that aren't on official sites

Oh - right. You 'heard it' somewhere. Don't worry about finding the report, we'll just take your word for it.

John Tee
John Tee
09 July, 2019 17:57
Watched Morgan from tv games a lot this season.
He invariably lasts the distance iirc.
Good hands and better all round game that both Hughes and BV. Way more mobile than both, but Hughes at his swashbuckling best
would be good for England if he produced that ...which he often hasnt because someone insists he be Billy lite...??
BV has been fragile and his size can be negated by the best...even though he remains a big lump.
I worry he'll break at the rwc and hopefully Wilson, Curry and the reserve 8 can provide a better balance back row as they did in SA.

With that in mind, Morgan is a good late shout if Hughes isnt picked.
Who else is in the frame?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
09 July, 2019 18:20
My impression is that it is only last season that he returned to form, was great in the Lancaster era, then seemed to switch off. Good to see him back to form!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
09 July, 2019 18:55
Morgan has had a ridiculous run of injuries - think he tore his calf a couple of times and another leg issue (knee?) before that. This season he got a good run and showed what he can do.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

Omba
Omba
09 July, 2019 21:11
Quote:
Awp24975
one of either Joe or Ruaridh will miss out, which whilst disappointing for them is better for us!

Wouldn't you think that Joe goes as being the different style/size to the rest. Ruaridh is up v Nowell or Watson I think

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
09 July, 2019 21:22
I'd agree but its the injury card that will decide a great deal, Joe C will start as favourite but his style could be attritional which lets RMcC in with a chance.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
09 July, 2019 22:14
Joe C is definitely the future, imv....it depends if this rwc is a bit too soon...
I think Jones likes a big winger...and hasnt got one apart from JC

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 July, 2019 09:42
Found these on Shedweb:

Videos of Englands training camp, a few familiar faces and a good feel for the squad life.











https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Omba
Omba
22 July, 2019 20:08
Latest iteration with Cips and Moon left out, and the 3 injuries back in, still has RMc as the unlucky 32nd man I think, (my bolding for unlucky losers). Unless Eddie ditches Teo, moves Daly inside and includes Rmc as a back 3 man.

Forwards:
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers),
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs),
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks),
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby),
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers),
Jamie George (Saracens),
Maro Itoje (Saracens),
George Kruis (Saracens),
Joe Launchbury (Wasps),
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints),
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints),
Joe Marler (Harlequins),
Brad Shields (Wasps),
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins),
Jack Singleton (Saracens),
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby),
Billy Vunipola (Saracens),
Mako Vunipola (Saracens),
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs),
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons / Sale Sharks)

Backs:
Mike Brown (Harlequins),
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby),
Elliot Daly (Saracens),
Owen Farrell (Saracens),
George Ford (Leicester Tigers),
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints),
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby),

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby),
Joe Marchant (Harlequins),
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers),
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby),
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs),
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs),
Ben Spencer (Saracens),
Ben Te'o (unattached),
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers),
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

warrenball
warrenball
23 July, 2019 11:00
Don't want to be so pessimistic, but cannot stop feeling this will all end badly. Thinking back to 2003 there was a obvious direction of travel with Woodward clearly in control. We have never got back to that position of being feared by all other teams. We can beat anyone in a one off game but I don't think Eddie has found the key to producing a consistently good team and do not feel we are any different to where we were before the last world cup.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
23 July, 2019 11:08
We need a bit of luck but I think it is perfectly possible, it all depends who we get. ngland should have few problems doing the group thing but then the need to win 3 'one offs' in a row.

so who we draw, who is injured and luck will decide a lot. Only problem is we probably used all our luck up winning the Cricket World Cup!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
23 July, 2019 11:20
Having Argentina and France in the group isn't that different to having Australia and Wales last time round. We really should beat both, and probably will, but for either side to beat us isn't the biggest shock in the world, so it's bound to be nervy. We have a lot more flaws, and probably a lot more dependencies than 2003.

Catt or Tinds was just about the only question that would sustain a discussion beyond your first pint. Now you could have 4 pints before you even get to the backs, another 3 discussing starting 9, 2 pints and a couple of chasers to argue about the best centre combination, and by the time you get to the back 3 you'll be offering to fight the Kiwis sitting quietly in the corner and then challenging them to a race round the square with your pants on your head.

In conclussssssion. We could win it, and we could crasccch out of the group.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
23 July, 2019 12:13
I bet there was a long long queue to be on your selection committee Opti!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
23 July, 2019 12:26
BV, Spencer and OF have to be the 8-10 IMO due to all 3 having played together (successfully) at the very highest club level and being able to bring that axis and control to England.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

warrenball
warrenball
23 July, 2019 14:04
Been celebrating with Shane Lowry Opti? Which I suppose just goes to show what can happen in sport but 2003 was the only time I can remember where we played the southern hemisphere nations and not only beat them fair and square but expected to do so. A bit like Bath playing Saracens at present, a win is always possible, but it always seems like a bit of a fluke.

warrenball
warrenball
26 July, 2019 22:06
Just been looking at the teams put out by the southern hemisphere countries in the championship and it strikes me more and more that the England team is built around one man, Farrell and I wonder if we have a plan if he is injured? This was always the limitation with Cipriani, he is such a kingpin that any injury leaves an almost unfillable hole but are we not in danger of being in the same position with Farrell? You get the feeling with SA, NZ and Oz that you can take anyone out and there is someone of similar quality ready to slot in and feel comfortable, but if Jones really is going to leave Cipriani out he must give lots of game time to the other fly halves to feel really confident about taking over without disrupting the style of play.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
26 July, 2019 23:22
Quote:
warrenball
Just been looking at the teams put out by the southern hemisphere countries in the championship and it strikes me more and more that the England team is built around one man, Farrell and I wonder if we have a plan if he is injured? This was always the limitation with Cipriani, he is such a kingpin that any injury leaves an almost unfillable hole but are we not in danger of being in the same position with Farrell? You get the feeling with SA, NZ and Oz that you can take anyone out and there is someone of similar quality ready to slot in and feel comfortable, but if Jones really is going to leave Cipriani out he must give lots of game time to the other fly halves to feel really confident about taking over without disrupting the style of play.

Its a fair point but we just don't have a direct replacement for Faz now. We could have developed one, but we didn't. I mean its not like he has a suspect temper or an idiosyncratic tackling techique or anything like that. So, Faz gets broken or red-carded? Cue George and a radical revision of the England game plan. Let's take a little guess at what the opposition will be trying to do, shall we?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 26/07/2019 23:26 by joethefanatic.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
29 July, 2019 20:25
Nowell now out of the squad, so Rory Mc moving a step closer.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Omba
Omba
29 July, 2019 20:27
And does Shields injury bring Ewels closer, move Itoje to 6 permanently

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
29 July, 2019 20:32
Quote:
Omba
And does Shields injury bring Ewels closer, move Itoje to 6 permanently

I'm not a huge fan of Shields but Itoje is not a starting 6. And there's no way Jack Nowell doesn't go to the World Cup, even if he only has one leg.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
06 August, 2019 15:13
[www.bbc.co.uk] Brown and Te'o dropped from Wales Game

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 August, 2019 15:45
Well done RMc. Canít understand why Spencer has been dropped. Bit worried about Manu and Piers F the only 12s is Farrell is at 10. Is Ludlam the hidden international quality brother of the guy who plays for Saints? (You know, the one who has played better then Dombrandt etc this season...).



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

P G Tips
P G Tips
07 August, 2019 08:37
I now seriously question if Eddie knows what he is doing.

Casting aside experienced scrum halves like Care & Wigglesworth, plus the best performing English 9 in last season's Premiership (Spencer) in favour of Heinz?

Plus a risky back row balance if Billy V is injured. I hope knows something we don't - or has a few tricks up his sleeve!

PG

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 August, 2019 09:22
I've noticed that Eddie seems to put SH background and experience high on his list when it comes to replacements. Piers Francis, Willi Heinz, Brad Shields all fit that role that seems to have promoted them over English players without those qualifications. I'm not a fan to be honest.
In a strange way I hope injuries get a chance to put that right!

I just hope Joe and Rory don't get broken in the warm ups!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2019 09:34 by shipwrecked.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 August, 2019 09:29
Looks like we aren't the only one confused about the 9 places, and this guy know a thing or two about playing 9 for England.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

P G Tips
P G Tips
07 August, 2019 09:40
SW

SH? I assume you are referring to geography not field position?

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2019 11:21 by P G Tips.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 August, 2019 09:56
Quote:
P G Tips
SW
SH? I assume you are referring to geography not filed position?

PG

Yes, PGT careless ambiguity, sorry!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 August, 2019 10:11
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
P G Tips
SW
SH? I assume you are referring to geography not filed position?

PG

Yes, PGT careless ambiguity, sorry!

Shipwrecked I assume you are referring to PG Tips and not Taught Postgraduate (PGT) teaching? spinning smiley sticking its tongue out



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 August, 2019 10:24
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
P G Tips
SW
SH? I assume you are referring to geography not filed position?

PG

Yes, PGT careless ambiguity, sorry!

Shipwrecked I assume you are referring to PG Tips and not Taught Postgraduate (PGT) teaching? spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Doh! Why am I so wooly headed? None of this would have happened if Eddie had picked Spencer!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
07 August, 2019 10:45
i expect a scrap to get out of the group and that is a let down considering we were expecting to win it if we could catch nz.

We havent done that and top 4 will be a very tough call now.

warrenball
warrenball
07 August, 2019 11:11
We all have our different thoughts over the best England team but I would have hoped that EJ's first choice team would have become crystal clear weeks ago and we would now only be sifting the more peripheral players to find out the best inclusions in the squad to cover injuries. Really worrying that does not seem to be the case.

benjbath
benjbath
07 August, 2019 13:14
Agree re: Spencer, and heís hardly averse to playing in the big games... very strange to have ignored Heinz for his four year tenure at Gloucester and then suddenly to leapfrog the experience of Care, the talent of Spencer and the youthful longevity of Maunder as well as the veteran reliability of Wigglesworth.

That aside, I sincerely hope the Bath coaches acknowledge that our starting 13 and back three are doing incredibly well against tough competition, to the point where its not inconceivable that they may all get a cap this summer. Considering Roko on form is one of the first names on most of the fansí team sheets, the talent (and indeed depth with Brew and Homer added to the equation) of our outfield backs is such that our game plan this year simply must focus on providing them with the ball they deserve to cause chaos out wide. RMc has done so well to make it to where he is and we know the talents of the others - letís build the foundations with a strong forward pack, but for Christís sake letís utilise what we have in the back field more than a crash ball to Roberts from 10 yards behind the gain line.

John Tee
John Tee
07 August, 2019 13:43
heinz was worth a look....but agree, why leave it so late.

i also think this constant call up and discard is rubbish too as it seems so arbitary.
why would anyone want to play for Jones with this sort of disregard. my theory is that teams players get tired of him and therefore they drop off. that is why everything he achieves comes in the first 2 years or so.

his basic plan seems to be that England can only play one way so he never develops a long term plan. It is therefore inevitable that decent coaches suss that out and nullify it.
4 years wasted.

Omba
Omba
07 August, 2019 14:17
Or is this just a squad for this game?

He is confident he knows what Teo and Spencer for example can offer, and this is the only chance to see Heinz and Francis

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 August, 2019 14:52
Quote:
Omba
Or is this just a squad for this game?
He is confident he knows what Teo and Spencer for example can offer, and this is the only chance to see Heinz and Francis

Would he play Ben Youngs if that was the case? He knows exactly what he can bring (He would be better off with Spencer and Heinz).

I guess we find out next Monday whether it is all a ruse or not...



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

TomReagan
TomReagan
07 August, 2019 16:42
A slightly left field question in that it's largely hypothetical, but an England World Cup win...where would it rank, as in would you take it over Bath winning the Prem?/ Bath getting to a final of anything this season? I'd obviously put it above Bath winning that preliminary tournament in September, but I'm thinking a European semi-final place or finishing top two in the Prem would excite/please me more. Don't know why, but i can't get too passionate about England in the way I can about Bath.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 August, 2019 16:57
Same TR. Will watch it and give them my support but donít really care too much about it and will be hoping that all the Bath players have good games and come back safely. My ranking is similar to yours tbh.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

TomReagan
TomReagan
07 August, 2019 17:00
Oh good, strangely reassuring BathMatt!

ballsout
ballsout
07 August, 2019 19:07
Quote:
TomReagan
A slightly left field question in that it's largely hypothetical, but an England World Cup win...where would it rank, as in would you take it over Bath winning the Prem?/ Bath getting to a final of anything this season? I'd obviously put it above Bath winning that preliminary tournament in September, but I'm thinking a European semi-final place or finishing top two in the Prem would excite/please me more. Don't know why, but i can't get too passionate about England in the way I can about Bath.

You're asking this on the fan message boad of the club, where diehards post, the results might swing one way. I suspect the majority of the country would choose England winning the World Cup, especially over something so flimsy and pointless as a European semi final defeat.

TomReagan
TomReagan
07 August, 2019 20:48
The majority of rugby fans would, of course, so it wouldn't be much of a question. That's the point. People on here are obviously Bath fans, so not so clear cut. A world cup is massive and only happens every 4 years, so I guess I was wondering how big a deal posters on here make of it compared with what passes for succes for our club. These days just to qualify from a European group would mean quite a bit to me. Getting to the semi final would be pretty impressive given the quality of teams in the competition and our recent history in Europe, so I would find it a more memorable achievement than England winning the World Cup. You can think what you like of course, this is definitely a case of each to their own.

ballsout
ballsout
07 August, 2019 22:02
For me, Bath getting to (and losing) a European semi final would be cool for about six weeks. England winning a World Cup will last a decade or two.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 August, 2019 22:32
Quote:
ballsout
For me, Bath getting to (and losing) a European semi final would be cool for about six weeks. England winning a World Cup will last a decade or two.

How about Bath winning the prem vs England winning the World Cup? I canít really believe that England are second favourites at 5-1 with skybet tbh (although the number of bets will obviously have drawn this in and others out).



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 August, 2019 23:22
Quote:
ballsout
For me, Bath getting to (and losing) a European semi final would be cool for about six weeks. England winning a World Cup will last a decade or two.

Completely agree BO, plus it solves another of your pet hates, while the Bath players are with England they are getting maximum attention from top class coaches!



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 24 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
07 August, 2019 23:40
Jones is planning to name his squad on Monday - 4 weeks before the deadline, at a time when the fitness of Nowell and Shields is unknown, and potential injuries against Wales. I'd have a small wager that the squad announcement gets postponed.

TomReagan
TomReagan
07 August, 2019 23:50
Quote:
ballsout
For me, Bath getting to (and losing) a European semi final would be cool for about six weeks. England winning a World Cup will last a decade or two.
Makes a lot of sense, but not how I feel! I remember watching England when I was growing up in the 70's and early 80's and I got very passionate about the 5 Nations. Perhaps as international rugby's got richer and, I think, more corporate, I've got less interested, in the same way that a few posters have said how they've enjoyed watching their local clubs/ semi-pro rugby having given up their Bath season tickets. I missed the 2003 final because I had to get the train to Bath as we were playing Quins and were top of the league. Lipman got sent off and we still won. Those are my honest 'memories' of that 2003 final.

gaz59
gaz59
08 August, 2019 13:16
Quote:
Optimist
Jones is planning to name his squad on Monday - 4 weeks before the deadline, at a time when the fitness of Nowell and Shields is unknown, and potential injuries against Wales. I'd have a small wager that the squad announcement gets postponed.

Or they will be in a provisional squad with substitutes named and primed to come in before squad finalised just before deadline

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 August, 2019 15:01
Joe Schmidt names an experimental side for the first friendly to try out a few potential bolters etc. Makes sense to me, thatís what these early games are for. Hopefully Eddie does the same before the squad selection and the serious stuff starts.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

warrenball
warrenball
08 August, 2019 15:43
Watching club rugby is fun and I have had many memorable moments supporting Bath, but you step up another level when watching internationals and I would rather see England win the World Cup than Bath win the Premiership. Winning the European Cup would get close, but the World Cup is only every four years and often to win you have to beat SA, Oz and NZ in a row. It would be nice to win them all but unfortunately at the moment none of these victories seem very likely.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
08 August, 2019 16:49
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
ballsout
For me, Bath getting to (and losing) a European semi final would be cool for about six weeks. England winning a World Cup will last a decade or two.

How about Bath winning the prem vs England winning the World Cup? I canít really believe that England are second favourites at 5-1 with skybet tbh (although the number of bets will obviously have drawn this in and others out).

I'd take Bath winning the PL over England winning the world cup every time. Was there when England won in 2003, but haven't seen Bath win..... well anything!

ballsout
ballsout
08 August, 2019 18:02
Quote:
BathMatt53
Joe Schmidt names an experimental side for the first friendly to try out a few potential bolters etc. Makes sense to me, thatís what these early games are for. Hopefully Eddie does the same before the squad selection and the serious stuff starts.

Italy pose zero challenge. He could name their U20s side and still win.

If Eddie named an experimental selection people would whinge that he should know his squad by now.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
08 August, 2019 19:05
Quote:
TomReagan
Quote:
ballsout
For me, Bath getting to (and losing) a European semi final would be cool for about six weeks. England winning a World Cup will last a decade or two.
Makes a lot of sense, but not how I feel! I remember watching England when I was growing up in the 70's and early 80's and I got very passionate about the 5 Nations. Perhaps as international rugby's got richer and, I think, more corporate, I've got less interested, in the same way that a few posters have said how they've enjoyed watching their local clubs/ semi-pro rugby having given up their Bath season tickets. I missed the 2003 final because I had to get the train to Bath as we were playing Quins and were top of the league. Lipman got sent off and we still won. Those are my honest 'memories' of that 2003 final.

I thought it was Martyn Wood who got sent off? I got an earlier train, watched the final, celebrated, continued drinking, watched Bath Vs Quins but mostly tried to chat up some lacrosse players, kept on celebrating. What a great day.

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