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ken_jnr
ken_jnr
03 November, 2019 15:17
He was really good. Mike Williams, Ewells and Obano looked decent as well. For all the star names in the Wasps backline I thought they were going to be better but they still won and kept us neutered in attack for much of the game.

Had we not tried for the miracle win and kicked the ball out we would not be bottom of the Premiership this weekend. I know we need to show ambition but it was clearly not on. If we do continue to be at the wrong end of the table, we are going to need more pragmatism.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 15:52
Quote:
Ali1969
Shipwrecked I agree but it is the identification when the chance is in or not. You are quite right we have lost so many games at the death, often due to our error and not from the opposition creating, however we have all seen teams kick out the ball when they realise there is no chance of the miracle win and don't want to lose the LBP, this is down to leadership and on field decision making. Basically you know if things have been clicking but our confidence in these situations coupled with our backline would suggest leave with something.

Decent point I guess I'm 50:50 on this one, but I prefer a team ethic that says go for it. Wasps had a choice go for their own try bonus point or prevent us getting one. Pretty negative to go for the latter in my view I would hope if we were in the same situation we would go for the try bonus point. I prefer to be positive.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

ballsout
ballsout
03 November, 2019 16:06
Quote:
ken_jnr
For all the star names in the Wasps backline I thought they were going to be better but they still won and kept us neutered in attack for much of the game.

Wasps are pretty poor so far this year, that was their first win, which makes leaving with 0 points even worse.

Bristol Welsh
Bristol Welsh
03 November, 2019 16:20
Just to say Sale had a penalty in the last seconds against us in their 22 (well actually their 5m line). Did they think, I know, lets kick it 30 meters and get a line out and try and win the game (they were 6 points behind), no they thought, @#$%& weather, chances are they we may give away possession/penalty and end up with nothing. They kicked it dead. Got a point (so only a 3 point difference between us and them). It means they were thinking of the season ahead, long term. Just how I expect them to be coached - Diamond is a bundle of entertainment after all. You ended up with nothing. Poor coaching, poor planning, poor execution. It may be that over the season it doesn't matter, but then again, why take the chance? Its not as if any of us is going to win the league, but 1 point can make a big difference further down the table (maybe a playoff spot, top European position or maybe relegation).

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 16:35
Quote:
Bristol Welsh
Poor coaching, poor planning, poor execution. It may be that over the season it doesn't matter, but then again, why take the chance?

So are you saying that is the Bristol way of approaching the game, safety first.
If so I suggest you talk to your coach, how many points have Bristol thrown away by running it from suicidal positions then?
Is that equally "Poor coaching, poor planning, poor execution?"

Nothing wrong in having a go! Ask Pat Lam.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Ali1969
Ali1969
03 November, 2019 16:39
Shipwrecked totally with you I would always like to be positive, but given our fragility for me it was a no brainer. I have a feeling Wasps feel we may be scrapping it out with us for something and to deny us a point was worth more to them than getting an extra try bonus point.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 November, 2019 16:42
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnít. Against Exe the week before they were positive and played out for the win. In general terms Iím another in the keep it positive camp tbh (not that I was at the Wasps game so can comment on the actual field position or anything in this case).



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 16:43
Quote:
Ali1969
Shipwrecked totally with you I would always like to be positive, but given our fragility for me it was a no brainer. I have a feeling Wasps feel we may be scrapping it out with us for something and to deny us a point was worth more to them than getting an extra try bonus point.

Don't worry Ali, Sarries are going to be on minus points soon if BoB is right. Have faith, post WC the best is yet to come..........I hope!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 November, 2019 16:51
Sarries will still stay up even with -35 (would have put them 10th last season). As worrying for them is that there is talk of them having a reduced cap for a season or more.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
03 November, 2019 16:55
Quote:
Long Term
we have as supporters no real influence therefore I suggest all you can do as you are in such turmoil is to decide whether to support the club or not

This is possibly the most sensible comment in this thread. It's clear from what we've seen to date this season that Hooper is guiding Bath towards the championship, so all we can do is decide whether to watch it happen or not.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 November, 2019 16:57
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Long Term
we have as supporters no real influence therefore I suggest all you can do as you are in such turmoil is to decide whether to support the club or not

This is possibly the most sensible comment in this thread. It's clear from what we've seen to date this season that Hooper is guiding Bath towards the championship, so all we can do is decide whether to watch it happen or not.

I will happily make a bet with you - £50 to the charity of the others choice at the end of the season. If Bath go down I donate to yours, if they stay up you donate to mine. Are you game?



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
03 November, 2019 17:03
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Long Term
we have as supporters no real influence therefore I suggest all you can do as you are in such turmoil is to decide whether to support the club or not

This is possibly the most sensible comment in this thread. It's clear from what we've seen to date this season that Hooper is guiding Bath towards the championship, so all we can do is decide whether to watch it happen or not.

I will happily make a bet with you - £50 to the charity of the others choice at the end of the season. If Bath go down I donate to yours, if they stay up you donate to mine. Are you game?

I've already placed a £1k bet on it happening.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 17:03
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Long Term
we have as supporters no real influence therefore I suggest all you can do as you are in such turmoil is to decide whether to support the club or not

This is possibly the most sensible comment in this thread. It's clear from what we've seen to date this season that Hooper is guiding Bath towards the championship, so all we can do is decide whether to watch it happen or not.

For the umpteenth time, how can you criticise a coaching regime when it is not even in place, let alone had time to effect change? You do realise Hatley is not in place and our backs have been in Japan?
Time to criticise is when Hately has been in place for 4-6 games with a full set of backs.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
03 November, 2019 17:07
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
Long Term
we have as supporters no real influence therefore I suggest all you can do as you are in such turmoil is to decide whether to support the club or not

This is possibly the most sensible comment in this thread. It's clear from what we've seen to date this season that Hooper is guiding Bath towards the championship, so all we can do is decide whether to watch it happen or not.

For the umpteenth time, how can you criticise a coaching regime when it is not even in place, let alone had time to effect change? You do realise Hatley is not in place and our backs have been in Japan?
Time to criticise is when Hately has been in place for 4-6 games with a full set of backs.

I respect Hatley a lot and welcome his return, but he's not the messiah. Is he going to fix the attack and poor decision making as well? So far only Charteris is showing any competence.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 17:15
Fair comment, but we are talking a big big injection of coaching and talent about to return, talk of the Championship is unrealistic. The games this season have all been with almost scratch sides, we had our 4th 9 out yesterday and a bug in the week.
We are in desperate need of a bit of confidence but I don't see a lack of effort, misdirected effort perhaps.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
03 November, 2019 17:17
If the RWC final showed us anything it is that you can't have an effective attack without good ball from the forwards so Hatley is an important piece of the jigsaw.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 November, 2019 17:26
Agree BB, we seem to forget we are missing a full international back row in Flouw, Underhill and Faletau and a back division of Watson, Joseph, McConnochie, and Cockanasiga. Thats half a team any one of which can change a game.
If Hooper, Charteris and Hately can't make those players work the I would call for a change too.

I would still like to see a defence coach though.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

ballsout
ballsout
04 November, 2019 11:52
People are putting a lot of faith in players returning to turn things around. Hopefully due to their individual one-off talents, rather than how they fit into a broken system. We've had these players for years and they haven't made us top 4 contenders. It's not about the individuals or the name on the team sheet.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
04 November, 2019 12:10
Quote:
ballsout
People are putting a lot of faith in players returning to turn things around. Hopefully due to their individual one-off talents, rather than how they fit into a broken system. We've had these players for years and they haven't made us top 4 contenders. It's not about the individuals or the name on the team sheet.

I agree with your point but it has to be a positive to some degree. Those involved in the final from both sides will come back from an elite level with good habits. If Flo assumes his international career is nearly over at 34 why would he not work well back at Bath to help form the new coaching setup? The only thing preventing that would be a bad culture blocking such positive contributions.

jameswood14
Woodpecker
04 November, 2019 13:04
Im going to the glos bath game on 4th Jan - with Glos supporting friends, I'm hoping that this turn around has happened by then.

warrenball
warrenball
04 November, 2019 14:10
I agree we cannot take too much from the first three games, but regardless of the returning players we will still have the well known problems at 9, 10 and centre, together with the anticipated coaching dilemma. Remember the returning players are the ones we will lose again for the 6N so we cannot rely on them for a miracle transformation.

The weather also has not been kind so far, but once it dries up I hope the team at least try to play a more expansive game. Not sure if it is a reaction to watching some good rugby at the WC but so far I have been completely underwhelmed by the premiership.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 November, 2019 14:16
Agreed - I don't think that we will ever get an expansive game with RP at 10 and JR at 12 unfortunately.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 November, 2019 14:35
We need something extra in midfield to be sure, given how well Josh Adams went looking for work in the WC and how Eddie used Joe C I'd like to see him coming in off his wing more often and getting us over the gain line.
The problem with JR and RP is they have both lost a lot of pace.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
04 November, 2019 14:48
As they say if RP and JR are the answer.........we are asking the wrong question!

jameswood14
Woodpecker
04 November, 2019 14:51
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
As they say if RP and JR are the answer.........we are asking the wrong question!

wrong question or wrong year.

Hymenoptera
Hymenoptera
04 November, 2019 15:36
I thought RP was excellent against Wasps, some of his kicking to touch from hand was exceptional.

opti
Optimist
04 November, 2019 16:00
Didn't see the Wasps game, but his kicking against Exeter was excellent in that game.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 November, 2019 16:05
Iím not sure that anyone has said that RP canít kick. He is a very good tactical kicker. Whether RP and JR get a back line moving (and make the most of the England returnees) is the concern.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
BathSalmon
04 November, 2019 20:31
Maybe it's time to see what De Glanville can offer at 10? If hes good enough, then hes old enough!

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 November, 2019 21:16
Not sure he is fit, its a decent suggestion but I think he needs a few experienced backs around him, to throw him into a backline that is already creaking could go seriously wrong.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
04 November, 2019 21:23
Quote:
BathMatt53
Iím not sure that anyone has said that RP canít kick. He is a very good tactical kicker. Whether RP and JR get a back line moving (and make the most of the England returnees) is the concern.

Then maybe we should play to his strengths. A 9 with a fast pass to give him time (I thought Ollie Fox did well) and kick for position. Then use the forwards to strangle the oppo into a mistake. Take the 3. Repeat. Sound familiar at all? SA, Sarries, Exeter, Leicester in their pomp...

Dull? - yes, boring? - unquestionably, winning strategy? - recent evidence strongly suggests so.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 November, 2019 21:28
Best get the p45s sorted for the returning England backs then...oh and can I have a refund on my season ticket?!



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
05 November, 2019 01:20
Quote:
BathMatt53
Best get the p45s sorted for the returning England backs then...oh and can I have a refund on my season ticket?!

Trouble is, playing outside RP and JR, they are not going to get the ball in any space. In that case, it doesn't matter how good you are or how fast your feet, gravity always wins.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865
05 November, 2019 09:26
The whole point of having a 12 like JR is that it creates space for the likes of JJ, Coka, AW and RM, either by holding defences or by setting up quick ball. Not that we've really seen it happen in practise, but I know Todd wanted a carrying 12 for this purpose, as he believed it was the way to get the best out of our back 3.

On paper, our first choice backline is top class, and combining JR and JJ makes sense to me. The question for me, is JR still up to it and can Dempsey coach the best out of them? On the evidence of this season, JR isn't going to let anyone down but Dempsey's influence is still up for debate. If by the season end he hasn't got some tries out of our backs then he's not up to it.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
05 November, 2019 09:42
Dempsey didn't seem to have much trouble getting tries when coaching at Leinster.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 November, 2019 09:59
Quote:
hemington
Dempsey didn't seem to have much trouble getting tries when coaching at Leinster.

Which is why it is all the more confusing / annoying.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
05 November, 2019 10:04
That's true, however JR needs an element of threat inside, RP doesn't offer that neither do our 9's at the moment. Add to that he doesn't seem to vary his running lines or offload. I'm sure we can cope with a predictable 12 more easily than we can predictable half backs.

Look how Reinach holds the defense with his speed and interceptions, (he is out of contract with Saints soon, though expected to go to Montpellier). We have to be see how the returnees get on and get the pack to establish their promised dominance.
I also think that Underhill will change the dynamic for the pack, if he can catch their backs behind the gain line and propel them backwards as he did in Japan that would open up the game for Roko. Joe C, Rory, JJ and Watson.

This is where we get to find out if Hooper's team can put the bits of the puzzle together. If as you say things haven't changed on the try front despite having our key players back then we have a big problem!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

opti
Optimist
05 November, 2019 11:55
Totally agree about our half-backs SW. Chudley is still pre-programmed to box-kick, and outside him Priestland just doesn't have that 'put some pace on it' mentality. He seems happy to let the game slow down around 9. Then when it comes to him, it's either drop back and kick, or shovel it flat. When was the last time anyone saw either of them make a break that actually led to genuine panic in the defence?

dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865
05 November, 2019 12:15
I agree, to an extent, but Priestland is an international 10 who has played with Roberts for many years. They could have me playing 9 and they should still be able to get something out of the internationals outside them. I still wonder whether Cook might be the one who steps up and delivers on his promise, although I wouldn't be willing to bet on it.

Having said the above, I have dreams where Cipriani is wearing our 10 jersey...

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
05 November, 2019 12:45
Quote:
dr.bath1865
I agree, to an extent, but Priestland is an international 10 who has played with Roberts for many years. They could have me playing 9 and they should still be able to get something out of the internationals outside them. I still wonder whether Cook might be the one who steps up and delivers on his promise, although I wouldn't be willing to bet on it.
Having said the above, I have dreams where Cipriani is wearing our 10 jersey...

...but Priestland was an international 10 who has played with Roberts for many years.... and they had the likes of Rhys Webb at 9 threatening round the fringes, you are right though in his international career he did 'have a go'. Haven't seen it for a wile at the Rec.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

ballsout
ballsout
05 November, 2019 14:01
I bet London Irish or Bristol would get more out of Chudley-Priestland-Roberts than we do.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
05 November, 2019 14:25
Really, what can you coach to a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 32 year old? They are close to becoming coaches rather than being coached!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

opti
Optimist
05 November, 2019 14:44
Quote:
ballsout
I bet London Irish or Bristol would get more out of Chudley-Priestland-Roberts than we do.

Possibly one of them at any one time. Not sure about all 3 together.

I wonder if other clubs could get more out of Cook, Burns, Willison - individually and/or in combination - than we have managed. I would hope so - because we've squeezed the square root of f-all out of what most people would regard as three decent talents.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
05 November, 2019 14:53
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
ballsout
I bet London Irish or Bristol would get more out of Chudley-Priestland-Roberts than we do.

Possibly one of them at any one time. Not sure about all 3 together.

I wonder if other clubs could get more out of Cook, Burns, Willison - individually and/or in combination - than we have managed. I would hope so - because we've squeezed the square root of f-all out of what most people would regard as three decent talents.

You would be lucky to get either of the combinations to play 3-4 games in a row due to injuries/concussion! Younger players are a little less susceptible to injury.

Even Willison is 31.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
05 November, 2019 14:57
I'm guessing the point being made is that players are not improved by the coaching at Bath and the majority just stagnate at best.

ballsout
ballsout
05 November, 2019 15:20
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
ballsout
I bet London Irish or Bristol would get more out of Chudley-Priestland-Roberts than we do.

Possibly one of them at any one time. Not sure about all 3 together.

I wonder if other clubs could get more out of Cook, Burns, Willison - individually and/or in combination - than we have managed. I would hope so - because we've squeezed the square root of f-all out of what most people would regard as three decent talents.

Pretty much any other club would get more out of all our players than we do, that much has been obvious for years. My point was in relation to people saying we need a big name 9, 10 and 12. What for? So they can underperform like everyone else at Bath?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 November, 2019 15:39
Doesn't need to be a big name, Faf wasn't. Just has to be someone who is more dynamic than our current 9, 10 and 12. Arguably that is Cook, Burns and someone like Wright, to be fair.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
hemington
05 November, 2019 15:39
me thinks some supporters underperform as well

JFPC
JFPC
05 November, 2019 16:33
Quote:
ballsout

Pretty much any other club would get more out of all our players than we do, that much has been obvious for years. My point was in relation to people saying we need a big name 9, 10 and 12. What for? So they can underperform like everyone else at Bath?

If any other club would get more out of any player how come Bath had so many players at the world cup? If what you say is true then they wouldn't have been playing well enough to even be considered.



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley. Weird split household co-parented
player 2020 Josh Matavesi

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
05 November, 2019 17:00
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
ballsout
I bet London Irish or Bristol would get more out of Chudley-Priestland-Roberts than we do.

Possibly one of them at any one time. Not sure about all 3 together.

I wonder if other clubs could get more out of Cook, Burns, Willison - individually and/or in combination - than we have managed. I would hope so - because we've squeezed the square root of f-all out of what most people would regard as three decent talents.

Pretty much any other club would get more out of all our players than we do, that much has been obvious for years. My point was in relation to people saying we need a big name 9, 10 and 12. What for? So they can underperform like everyone else at Bath?

We don't need a big name, but we do need a younger name at 10. RP and JR learnt their trade early Gatland, 10's like Cips and George Ford play a flatter, faster game. Its incredibly hard to relearn the 10 position if your instinct is to play deeper and let your 12 smash it up.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
05 November, 2019 17:03
Sorry to go back to the game but why was the last penalty awarded? Bath had 2 clear out players at the ruck, the 2 Wasps players were off their feet in good time. The highlights don't include the explanation.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
05 November, 2019 19:17
We still should have kicked the ball out for a point. Even Mr H admitted that in his interview. We need points from every game like Bristol last season and Irish are aiming for just to stay up.



Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
10 November, 2019 16:55
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
I bet we beat the team we are up against next week!

Aw bless.


Clearly Ballsout the Bath Team, the crowd at the Rec.....me included, were indeed blessed.

You on the other hand are obviously not as you seem to have gone missingthumbs up

gaz59
gaz59
10 November, 2019 18:53
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
I bet we beat the team we are up against next week!

Aw bless.


Clearly Ballsout the Bath Team, the crowd at the Rec.....me included, were indeed blessed.

You on the other hand are obviously not as you seem to have gone missingthumbs up

Take a bow BFJ, great call

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
10 November, 2019 19:11
Bath win and BO & BoB go MIA, what a surprise?!
Be nice if they went permanently MIA.

MESSAGES->author
hemington
10 November, 2019 21:45
They must have found a nice thistle patch somewhere.

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
11 November, 2019 12:37
Mutual flagellation, perhaps?

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