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DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
16 November, 2019 21:15
Coochie, the angles shown by BT clearly show no arms, no attempt to wrap, just an illegal shoulder charge which is a cast iron penalty, and possible yellow card, plus it was in the act of passing for a likely try. If after the offload then it was late too.

ballsout
ballsout
16 November, 2019 21:40
As Optimist says, we almost never get any rub of the green or 50:50 calls from officials. Getting a bit weird tbh.

Ali1969
Ali1969
16 November, 2019 21:55
There are signs of optimism, having said that and watching today I could not help but say to myself what would we give for any type of consistency. We have beaten the Chiefs and Saints at the Rec and we should have despatched Ulster no excuses. No disrespect meant to Ulster but at home on a heavy pitch we should have won that game comfortably it should not be coming down to the last play and bemoaning poor officiating, but again as Hooper stated we let ourselves down with poor play and a lack of attack. There are no excuses. Congratulations and well played Ulster.

We have a good squad yes we are lacking a quality reliable playmaker but what we have is hardly shabby 2 seasoned international 10's, we have a proven attack Coach and a star studded backline so please someone tell me why is our attack non existent??

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
16 November, 2019 22:30
That was like watching Wasps of old. Why bother with an offside line? Not a big fan of the Italian interpretation of the laws....

There was some promise there but... Still a lack of incision in the backs.

Shame we couldn't finish it. Would have done our confidence a world of good.



Adopted Player:
[20] - Will Vaughan
[19] -
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 November, 2019 22:34
For my money Ali 9 and 10 are far far too predictable. RP is slowing down noticeably, charge down and blocked pass two games on the trot. Chudley's box kicking is not contestable and readable.
Bit worried about Freddy and his cramp as well.

We have a decent pack and I was surprised on a heavy ground we didn't kick to the corners even though our line out wasn't working too well.

Overall though we looked loads better, 17 + phases at one point and Roko loves smashing people back. Loved the hit on Stockdale. Disappointed but way better.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
16 November, 2019 22:35
Here you are DB





Adopted player 20/21: Will Spencer - welcome home http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/105/105_0_1597354200.jpg

http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/105/105_0_1597330055.jpghttp://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/105/105_0_1597330111.jpg

dcsh
dcsh
16 November, 2019 22:35
So the one try we scored and the only time we looked threatening Mercer picks from the base of the scrum and throws a miss pass (cutting out 9, 10 & 12 ) direct to JJ who puts Gabe into space at pace. Interesting.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 November, 2019 22:51
Yes, JJ had an odd game but hid did throw a great pass for the try. Has he ever played 12? We could do with a centre that can pass.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
hasta
16 November, 2019 22:53
Ah ok. Not cutting out 9, 10, 12. Deliberately and clearly a training ground move where Chudley moves open calling for the ball and pulling the defence while Mercer deliberately breaks blind and exploits the space.

Come on, that was a great move.

Am gutted we lost that. Two really bad bits of luck led to 14 points against us. Ulster's defence was excellent. But we've got a good young pack, the most solid set piece we've had in years and there are signs of opening up behind. Yes creativity at 10/12 is concerning (what is Max Wright's crash ball to knock on ratio?). But actually I'm kind of ok iff we continue to develop.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 November, 2019 23:07
Quote:
hasta
Come on, that was a great move.

Not sure anyone is saying it wasn't actually.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
hasta
16 November, 2019 23:12
Dcsh was, actually. (Tbh our posts crossed, I think it looks like mine is a response to you)

supermarinematt
supermarinematt
17 November, 2019 00:03
There seems to be one move I've noticed they have used a few times in the last few games, where Chudley passes but then loops around the 10 & 12 to create an extra man. Simple move but effective. Its one of the few times they don't slow the ball down or let JR just crash it up the middle. The should try utilise that miss pass as well, again simple stuff but works, especially if you have players coming on at pace.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
17 November, 2019 00:26
Well I thought that was one of the better games we have seen at the Rec for some time.

On occasions, we attacked with menace and pace. Great shame our passing in the centre, apart from JJ's one to Hamer-Webb, was so poor, Rhuard M never got a pass all day.

The pack did well generally and Ewels is growing into captaincy. He has a very effective game too.

Underhill was devastating in some of his tackling and linked well on occasions. Roko looked back to his best and completed a couple of huge tackles of his own.

Allison at full back cleared up a lot of potential grief for Ulster who were lucky with their two breakaway tries from our errors.

It was enjoyable to watch, the officials were poor at times for both sides, but we showed great spirit and resolution in nearly nicking a game we could and probably should of won. From where I sat I couldn't see the end of the last play, so cannot comment on what went on. I feel if we play like that again, we will win more than we will lose and am hopeful for the future.



Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano


Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
17 November, 2019 00:37
Having now watched the replay I am rather disappointed with our performance. A number of aspects of our game, some of which had come on by leaps & bounds, didnít function at all well today despite a huge amount of effort & pain put in by the boys. The line out was poor, we were under pressure in the scrum, there was no hint of a rolling maul, we made too many errors, our kicking game was poor,
JJ can never find space in a Bath shirt. SH seems to have acknowledged much of this so they will need redouble their efforts.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 November, 2019 00:43
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Coochie, the angles shown by BT clearly show no arms, no attempt to wrap, just an illegal shoulder charge which is a cast iron penalty, and possible yellow card, plus it was in the act of passing for a likely try. If after the offload then it was late too.

CC has put up the video showing the no arms tackle on Mercer, in fact if you roll back to the previous pass about 30 yds from the line there is another dubious tackle, certainly little wrap if at all in that move.

BnG is right, no enough TMO in this game.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 November, 2019 01:22
We played well and lost. It happens and I'd be pretty sure we'll play worse and win - maybe even in the return fixture. I was encouraged by the forwards. The backs do look pedestrian. JJ at 12 (or least least swapping with the good doctor) would be very interesting. But when alls said and done, we need a more threatening 10.

Our last play, BTW, was criminally naive.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
17 November, 2019 06:01
Quote:
joethefanatic
Our last play, BTW, was criminally naive.

Why?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
17 November, 2019 07:15
They were so close to (over?) the offside line all day that by the time Ball was in JJs hands he was wearing an Ulsterman. Given that it was clearly never going to be pinged they needed to work the doglegs rather than going straight at them - didnít see many Bath players cutting angles through the centres to take this opportunity, Iím not sure JR has this in his toolbox (the speed needed)?

With several centres out of contract we need to be looking at someone like Seta Tamanivalu IMO unless we are going to turn JC into a 12 which would be awesome to see...!



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/11/2019 07:51 by BathMatt53.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 November, 2019 08:24
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
joethefanatic
Our last play, BTW, was criminally naive.

Why?

We're one point down, times up, we have possession in the opposite half and we send a single runner up in the 12 channel from off the top line out ball. Who gets isolated and holds on. Penalty. Cue fat lady.

Drive the line out ball, commit the fringe defence, keep possession at all costs, As long as you don't make a mistake, you have an infinite amount to time to score and any score will do. Milk a penalty. Set up a drop goal. Anything, really, BUT TREASURE THE FECKING BALL LIKE IT IS YOUR FIRST BORN CHILD.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/11/2019 08:25 by joethefanatic.

Ali1969
Ali1969
17 November, 2019 09:00
The problem as I mentioned in a previous post our transfer team went on a public search for a new 10, they informed RP he was Not going to be offered a new contract etc blah blah blah

For whatever reason and we will never be publicly told by Tarquin the club failed to attract a 10 and had to grovel to RP and pay him an enormous new deal which his performances had not deserved and in addition our DoR spookily changed his mind in relation to remaining at the club - I am sure the two are not linked (Sm147)

On a positive note it looks like the vocal Sarries who stormed WE WILL APPEAL THIS IS DISGUSTING may not be actually appealing at all for fear of relegation so there may be players becoming available at the end of the season, providing ourselves and the other Premiership clu step up and do not capitulate against them, really feel for the true Sarries supporters if true because you have been cheated and your clubs name tarnished beyond reproach.

Sad because I genuinely believe Nigel Wray is a good man and when I met him he was passionate about rugby and player welfare especially post career but his position is untenable and he will for the good of the game needs to sadly fa on his sword.

ballsout
ballsout
17 November, 2019 09:03
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
joethefanatic
Our last play, BTW, was criminally naive.

Why?

We're one point down, times up, we have possession in the opposite half and we send a single runner up in the 12 channel from off the top line out ball. Who gets isolated and holds on. Penalty. Cue fat lady.

Drive the line out ball, commit the fringe defence, keep possession at all costs, As long as you don't make a mistake, you have an infinite amount to time to score and any score will do. Milk a penalty. Set up a drop goal. Anything, really, BUT TREASURE THE FECKING BALL LIKE IT IS YOUR FIRST BORN CHILD.

Well said.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
17 November, 2019 09:21
Or run in an injury time try which they were a cats whisker away from doing.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

ballsout
ballsout
17 November, 2019 09:25
Doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible play to run and that comes back to Ewels for calling it. We were lucky to get another opportunity anyway thanks to Ulster messing up the end of the game.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 November, 2019 10:02
Quote:
ballsout
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
Bath Hammer
Quote:
joethefanatic
Our last play, BTW, was criminally naive.

Why?

We're one point down, times up, we have possession in the opposite half and we send a single runner up in the 12 channel from off the top line out ball. Who gets isolated and holds on. Penalty. Cue fat lady.

Drive the line out ball, commit the fringe defence, keep possession at all costs, As long as you don't make a mistake, you have an infinite amount to time to score and any score will do. Milk a penalty. Set up a drop goal. Anything, really, BUT TREASURE THE FECKING BALL LIKE IT IS YOUR FIRST BORN CHILD.

Well said.

Two things.

1) "As long as you don't make a mistake" Absolutely key but what about the ref making a mistake?

2)"BUT TREASURE THE FECKING BALL LIKE IT IS YOUR FIRST BORN CHILD" We did our ball retention was good. That improvement needs to be noted.

The failure to win wasn't just in the last play, it was elsewhere but there has to be some recognition of the fact that we are significantly better as a side. Ewell's decisions are never going to be 100%.
It is close to the time when it has to be admitted that Hooper is doing OK.

The criticisms of fight, dog, ball retention, tackling have receded the new ones of "running the ball" are now appearing. We need game management but we are now a decent side.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo
17 November, 2019 10:12
Just rewatched the last play as we couldnít really see what happened from the terrace. ďtackleĒ on Mercer was late (ish) but absolutely a no arm shoulder charge. Clear penalty and potentially a card. Ref just wanted the game over, assistant ref not really looking. On such small moments are games won and lost.

dcsh
dcsh
17 November, 2019 10:28
Quote:
hasta
Dcsh was, actually. (Tbh our posts crossed, I think it looks like mine is a response to you)
No I wasnít, I was pointing out if we cut out the static shovelling along the line and put our damaged men in space at pace we can score tries like that.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
17 November, 2019 10:35
Quote:
shipwrecked

The failure to win wasn't just in the last play, it was elsewhere but there has to be some recognition of the fact that we are significantly better as a side. Disagree, only the lineout is significantly improved

Ewell's decisions are never going to be 100%. Absolutely true, he seems to be doing a good job.

It is close to the time when it has to be admitted that Hooper is doing OK. Absolutely not

The criticisms of fight, dog, ball retention, tackling have receded the new ones of "running the ball" are now appearing. We need game management but we are now a decent side Disagree again.

Yesterday's game was pretty poor from both sides and could have gone either way, Bath just didn't get the rub of the green. Not sure why Bath bother with wingers though as we rarely use them effectively.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 November, 2019 10:45
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
shipwrecked

The failure to win wasn't just in the last play, it was elsewhere but there has to be some recognition of the fact that we are significantly better as a side. Disagree, only the lineout is significantly improved

Ewell's decisions are never going to be 100%. Absolutely true, he seems to be doing a good job.

It is close to the time when it has to be admitted that Hooper is doing OK. Absolutely not

The criticisms of fight, dog, ball retention, tackling have receded the new ones of "running the ball" are now appearing. We need game management but we are now a decent side Disagree again.

Yesterday's game was pretty poor from both sides and could have gone either way, Bath just didn't get the rub of the green. Not sure why Bath bother with wingers though as we rarely use them effectively.

Wishful thinking that there might be at least some recognition so what does Hooper have to do to achieve some sort of recognition for you.

P.S. We have a solid scrum, excellent back row that competes at the breakdown and a lineout that was working, up to yesterday. How is that not an improvement.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
17 November, 2019 10:57
Quote:
shipwrecked
Wishful thinking that there might be at least some recognition so what does Hooper have to do to achieve some sort of recognition for you.

Win all our home games, finish in top 4 and qualify for HC quarter finals would have me saying Hooper has done a good job.

He's not alone in concerning me though. Our 9, 10, 12 certainly aren't the best but I would expect a half decent attack coach to do something with 2 ex internationals and a former PL winning 9.

I like what Charteris is doing with the lineout and our defence in midfield yesterday seemed better as well.

I just don't agree we are a significantly better side as you maintain.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 November, 2019 11:15
OB, I didn't say good job, I said OK.

He said he was going to sort out the forwards, they are miles better before Hatley gets to work.
Everyone, I mean everyone agrees we need 9,10,12 but that is down to availability unless you have a suggestion?

You can't say we are not better than last year, we couldn't retain the ball, deal with restarts, tackle, scrum, win lineouts, throw in catch the ball......

Plus we have young talent coming through, it all part of the club.

You are right though we do need half backs.....have we signed Rhys Webb yet?



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

ballsout
ballsout
17 November, 2019 11:23
Compared to where we are at the start of the season, being nilled at half time in a few games, there's definitely been an improvement. Having said that, still lost at home, again look likely be out of a Cup after just a couple of rounds as usual. And we still make so many mistakes, it's so frustrating to watch.

miller8
miller8
17 November, 2019 12:32
This team can only get better especially when World Cup and injury returnees get back into the rhythm...

ballsout
ballsout
17 November, 2019 12:43
Quote:
miller8
This team can only get better especially when World Cup and injury returnees get back into the rhythm...

Other teams will get better too

Banachek
Banachek
17 November, 2019 14:38
Should/could have won this one...
The lack of incision from the centres against Ulster was down to a couple of things IMO
1) playing Roberts, yes he hits it up but rarely breaks the line. He rarely offloads in the tackle either so no continuity to build pressure drag in defenders so creating space outside.
2) slow ball from rucks, partly SH , partly Ulster doing a job at slowing it down.
3) Pitch heavy, with all the "weather" over the last couple of weeks , means players like JJ just cant step / use their footwork .

Until we have options/plays that allows us to get some penetration up the middle we won't be able to exploit the space outside this creates.

MESSAGES->author
Griff
18 November, 2019 13:18
Like others have said I do think there are signs of improvement and we scored another first phase try. We do need a 10 who can take the ball flat and at pace, sadly RP is just shipping the ball on, though he did play a lot of the game on 1 leg.

Apart from the no arms tackle at the end, I'm still smarting over the lack of forward pass given for their second try and the fact RM was down injured at the time after being (you could argue, taken out in the air as the Ulster player didn't exactly make much of an effort to go for the ball) the ref still allowed play to continue around him whilst being treated, when he should have blown up before that as play was becoming unsafe! with a player down.



"You're going to need a bigger boat"

Christian Judge Adopted Player 2020/21

Shadders
Shadders
18 November, 2019 13:33
BT sport clip here with BOD and Lol analysing the final play.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
18 November, 2019 14:04
Quote:
Shadders
BT sport clip

They got lucky with that one for sure, not that it matters now.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

opti
Optimist
18 November, 2019 14:08
Quote:
Griff
I'm still smarting over ... the fact RM was down injured at the time

Ö. that was going through my mind when they scored, and I was trying to think how you work out a compromise so that teams aren't immediately handicapped by losing a player to injury, without going down the football route where players tactically stop the game by feigning injury.

MESSAGES->author
Rawce
18 November, 2019 14:43
Those around me reckoned it was the bounce that went forward, not the pass which is fine. The missed knee to Freddie's shoulder grates, as well as the final passage of play.

Also - [twitter.com] Stockdale must have a fair few kgs and cms on Roko!

dcsh
dcsh
18 November, 2019 15:04
Quote:
Shadders
BT sport clip here with BOD and Lol analysing the final play.
I think Lol was busy think about what to have for tea or something as he kept saying that the ďtryĒ stood regardless, but they should have come back for the penalty.

opti
Optimist
18 November, 2019 15:14
If we were a bit unlucky, then we should be good enough to go an get a win at Ulster. I'm not sure if they were missing many first-choice on Saturday? But if we can add Flo, Taulupe, Joe C and Ant to the mix then it's far from impossible.

supermarinematt
supermarinematt
18 November, 2019 18:20
Quote:
Griff
I'm still smarting over the lack of forward pass given for their second try

Pass went backwards, it was the bounce that went forwards so the try is ok

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
19 November, 2019 04:01
It is true that we were at the wrong end of some decisions but they were very close with one, possibly, two try attempts & I donít remember us threatening their line. Our lineout was poor & we made errors at crucial times. We had a lot of the ball but lacked incisiveness. Also, disappointingly, we didnít see a glimpse of a rolling maul. Overall going forward I am less than encouraged by that performance apart from the spirit & effort.

Boldangrey
Boldangrey
19 November, 2019 08:45
Normally I would have back Zac and Roko on a 2 on 2, but there was actually poor decision making in the last non-try.

Zac would have run through that tackle 9 times out of 10 if he had held the ball.

The touch line acts as an extra defender in that situation. Had Roko cut inside earlier he would have given himself more space. As it was, even if the interception was not made he would probably have been bundled into touch.

dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865
19 November, 2019 09:07
I'm amazed Zach passed! He never passes, hardly all game, which is fine because his footwork and contact work are so strong. But unlike the rest of the forwards who look to tip the ball on or give the pass out the back, Zach almost always takes it on himself.

I'd have loved to have seen him dummy and go for it. Cooney might've stopped him a metre or two out. But we're going forward with momentum, we've potential penalty advantage from the Cooney 'hit', potential penalties as Ulster retreat, the chance to pick and go towards the posts... ah what might have been.

But if Zach hadn't passed and we hadn't scored, I'd have been wishing he'd given it to Roko!

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
19 November, 2019 09:37
No blame to the Bath players at the end, Stockdale came from an angle where he could not be seen. I guess 50/50 on whether Zac would have run through the 9, I don't think a dummy would have worked necessarily as Stockdale had already told the 9 to take Zac, pointing as he was running, credit to him.

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 09:45
I'd rather focus on the miracle catch that Zach made + the skill of whoever it was who tipped it on to him - after 80 minutes of full-on action, when your skills are at their most vulnerable - and the energy and spirit that put Bath in that position in the first place. Stockdale's defensive work, as described by Dallaglio, was absolutely fascinating too. Just great rugby all round.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
19 November, 2019 10:26
Quote:
Optimist
+ the skill of whoever it was who tipped it on to him

Chris Cook



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

Deckchair
Deckchair
19 November, 2019 10:30
Ulster deserved the win by dint of an excellent defence game strategy that forced Bath to make mistakes, travel sideways and box kick to nowhere. Ulster then had the skills and players to take advantage of those Bath mistakes. MoM was the Ulster scrum half. Chudley no way near as influential or creative. The Bath 3/4 line is blunt and clueless and bang 'n crash is no longer a viable game plan.
Ulster took their chances because we gave them more ( with a little help from poor match officials) and they had the players to accept. Our best 3/4 line break was made by our number 8. Our pack has been the most positive development this year but our lineout wobbled against Ulster and the bad old penalty count has started mounting again.
Early days yet so let's hope that Bath can begin to finally get it all together - but the blunt 3/4 line is a concern.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/11/2019 10:31 by Deckchair.

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 10:45
On the highlights - stop the clock at 6' 42. Priestland is pulling the ball back literally 10-12 metres, and directly behind him. My impression is that was the norm with RP's passes out the back. Surely the set up has got to be tighter than that to really challenge the defence?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 11:23
Quote:
Optimist
On the highlights - stop the clock at 6' 42. Priestland is pulling the ball back literally 10-12 metres, and directly behind him. My impression is that was the norm with RP's passes out the back. Surely the set up has got to be tighter than that to really challenge the defence?

Isn't that a function of compensating for their offside defence, they run two lines one in front of the other, the regular backs are dummy runners and Cook and Zac are the second line. Its what gets us wide in the first place.

I agree that RP plays too deep though, if he doesn't threaten the midfield by his running or short chip kicks through his backs are always going to be predictable. He has no variation.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 11:45
Screengrab of the final play on Saturday. I think this was typical of the way we were set up. Look at RP's shoulders - it is physically impossible for the flat runner to be a potential recipient of the pass. The set up with Bath in Mike/GF days is so much tighter. The ball actually went out the back, but in the freeze-frame below you still don't know which of the 2 runners is getting the ball (from Eastmond, I think).

https://i.ibb.co/0cdqjJM/rp.png


https://i.ibb.co/sQWyZgK/gf.png



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/11/2019 11:53 by Optimist.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
19 November, 2019 11:49
We seem to rely massively on Zac both going forward & in last ditch tackles despite the fact that he must be carrying numerous aches & pains. Few others show up nearly as much. Underhill was fairly invisible as was McConaghy. JJ offers himself a lot but just seems to slip over in the tackle. We have a lot of work to do to get that backline performing as an effective & incisive unit & as has been said itís not helped by rather uninspiring halfbacks.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
19 November, 2019 12:13
I watched JJ at the weekend quite a bit. He runs in fast, stops while he does a little Riverdance style step thing, scrubs all his speed (maybe slips over) and gets nailed. I wish he would just keep the momentum going and then pass to the winger or an inside man who also has momentum...I din't notice it for England so either I wasn't watching or he doesn't feel the need to try and force something with England where the ball is better and quicker?



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 12:16
True Opti, but that it is one of the few occasions when we actually got the ball wide. Plus Ford is a quicker 10 than Priestland.
Basically though I agree about Priestland but that play isn't the best example. He was forced to play like that having been charged down last week and nearly intercepted early this week. Remember Chudley was also charged down.
The rush defence can be pushed back if you kick behind them, we didn't so thats a green light to charge up, RP compensated.
Is this coaching or is it the half backs? I preferred it when we did the scrum, lineout, rolling maul thing, to be honest, that way their backs are walking backwards.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
19 November, 2019 13:21
On Saturday on numerous occasions there was a large areas of green stuff behind the Ulster very, very fast up defence line (offside?)..........all it needed was a little chip kick (do I say this after every match) to get behind them a few times.

This would have two effects........keep their back line honest rather than just rushing straight up because they "knew" we were always going to pass it as described so clearly above, and might also cause their full back to be less deep to try and cover this option which in turn would open up the option of a very deep kick going over his head giving us the opportunity to really make some ground.

Freddie is generally the only one who seems to do this but for some weird reason, for a very talented footballer, he always kicks too far.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
19 November, 2019 14:21
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
On Saturday on numerous occasions there was a large areas of green stuff behind the Ulster very, very fast up defence line (offside?)..........all it needed was a little chip kick (do I say this after every match) to get behind them a few times.
This would have two effects........keep their back line honest rather than just rushing straight up because they "knew" we were always going to pass it as described so clearly above, and might also cause their full back to be less deep to try and cover this option which in turn would open up the option of a very deep kick going over his head giving us the
opportunity to really make some ground.


Freddie is generally the only one who seems to do this but for some weird reason, for a very talented footballer, he always kicks too far.

Totally agree

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 14:40
'that it is one of the few occasions when we actually got the ball wide'

I'm not really sure that 'move' counts. It was entirely dependent, for its success, in Cook going for the flick (which indicates that he was actually getting man and ball, not that the pull-back had given him some space), and Zach catching that flick-on. That is simply not a repeatable process - it would only come off about 1 in 10 times.

I don't think the chip kick is so much in RP's repertoire because he's not quick enough off the mark to regather it himself, nor is Jamie Roberts. JJ would be, but 10 chipping to 13 is fairly rare. A bit more interchangeability between JJ and JR might help.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 16:07
Quote:
Optimist
I don't think the chip kick is so much in RP's repertoire because he's not quick enough off the mark to regather it himself, nor is Jamie Roberts. JJ would be, but 10 chipping to 13 is fairly rare. A bit more interchangeability between JJ and JR might help.

Strongly agree, has JJ ever played 12?



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
19 November, 2019 17:56
Thing is Opti, and this is a rare admission from me (!), I was not the fastest off the mark, but if you chip high very late then you can run through whilst they are firstly recognising that you have not passed, they then have to stop.........whilst you are accelerating (OK in my case running marginally quicker) they are then turning and then trying to catch you up from a standing start.

Of course the person who kicks does not have to be the person who catches so imagine putting Rory M and JJ at 12 and 13 surely one of them could catch a well placed kick.......take on the full back and pass to the other.........see easy peasy!!

MESSAGES->author
hasta
19 November, 2019 18:21
You don't need a second distributor at 12 (see Exeter, England, Sarries) they can easily be at 13. JJ has the handling but not the kicking skills for it imo. Plus he has, I think, an inclination to run more than distribute.

Look, clearly Priestland/Roberts are not the forces they were, but those are internationals. Many, many teams have won the prem without internationals at 10/12.

We're building a pack that can absolutely mix it with any other British and Irish pack. We have gas outside. We don't *need* all stars at 9/10/12. We need good patterns, good decision making, trust, skills, direction and discipline.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 18:29
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
Thing is Opti, and this is a rare admission from me (!), I was not the fastest off the mark, but if you chip high very late then you can run through whilst they are firstly recognising that you have not passed, they then have to stop.........whilst you are accelerating (OK in my case running marginally quicker) they are then turning and then trying to catch you up from a standing start.
Of course the person who kicks does not have to be the person who catches so imagine putting Rory M and JJ at 12 and 13 surely one of them could catch a well placed kick.......take on the full back and pass to the other.........see easy peasy!!

I agree BSJ, but a little chip over the top when you are running is really hard, needs practice and a lot of it and it is easy to charge down, thats why the grubber is easier but the point is as you say it just has to go behind them.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Trawling
Trawling
19 November, 2019 20:42
The challenge with your analysis Opti is that:
A: we nearly scored on the final play on Saturday
B: we thought the diamond attacking shape was God's gift until Sarries completely shut it down in the final
Having said that, I entirely agree that whatever you are going to do needs to be done at, just before or just after contact, whether it's jack ball, face ball or offload. No time for the defenders to react so they have to predict which makes the attackers' job easier.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/11/2019 20:49 by Trawling.

opti
Optimist
20 November, 2019 08:52
'The challenge with your analysis Opti is that: A: we nearly scored on the final play on Saturday'

As posted above - the fact that we nearly scored on the final play is irrelevant when you look at the sequence of events. A tip-on simply isn't part of a pre-planned move - it's a 'spontaneous, sh*it or bust desperation play - the sort of thing you do if you've got penalty advantage. If Cook had just caught the ball he would have been wiped out, Ulster would have swarmed all over him and it would have been turnover ball. I'll accept though the challenge that Cook is not a winger/full-back and so cutting that line would be fairly unfamiliar to him.

gaz59
gaz59
20 November, 2019 22:43
Quote:
Optimist
On the highlights - stop the clock at 6' 42. Priestland is pulling the ball back literally 10-12 metres, and directly behind him. My impression is that was the norm with RP's passes out the back. Surely the set up has got to be tighter than that to really challenge the defence?

At the risk of being video replay nerd check the play at 49:45

RP is close to the defensive line but has to hold up the pass because Ulster player has stepped up for interception. RP looks momentarily phased but then passes flat to Ewells who is through and mskes another 10 metres into their 22. If his pass goes to underhill its a try

A more instinctive 10 like ford would pose that threat more often

On another note go to 51:45 when their 2 puts knee deliberately to Freddie's head when one on one on our 22. Surely something that should have been looked at more closely?

gaz59
gaz59
21 November, 2019 09:32
Watched the last play again and now the no-arm tackle looks so obvious but guess at that point in the game the TMO was cracking open his complimentary bottle of bushmills (Sm14)

Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub
21 November, 2019 16:02
Quote:
gaz59
Watched the last play again and now the no-arm tackle looks so obvious but guess at that point in the game the TMO was cracking open his complimentary bottle of bushmills (Sm14)

I think he was tucking into his Paella Italiano at half time and fell asleep ! (Sm120)



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