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Did Eddie Jones do a good job, where now?
Discussion started by shipwrecked (IP Logged), 17 November, 2019 11:29
MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 November, 2019 11:29
I noticed Eddie at theBarbarians game and his comments about not yet being over the RWC defeat, and I just wondered what people thought about his performance, if he should stay and what side he should pick for the 6 Nations.

Personally I think he delivered, whether by accident or design I'm not sure, he solved the back row problem and we had a chance to win the whole thing. However, we might have a few more solutions to find. The Vunipolas, Manu and Youngs need alternatives question is when?

France will be be back with Shaun Edwards, Wales will be different with Pivac and Ireland are now without Schmidt, should be interesting!



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
17 November, 2019 12:17
I'd so he should go now. Falling at the last hurdle wasnt the problem but the way we did , was disappointing. We were well beaten but didn't really turn up so i don't think he has anything left.
Dont see any point in another 2 years.. we cleaned up in the 2 years after the last rwc...but then played catch up to the finals.

We need fresh ideas. imv.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
17 November, 2019 12:33
I would ask him to stay, provided he wants to of course. Losing him now would make it feel as though being runners up was a failure and forgetting the sublime performance in winning the semi against the favourites.

I would not necessarily keep him for 4 years though but plan a successor to work with him from next year to take over and be head coach for 2023. That way the team evolves and all the good stuff is kept.

ballsout
ballsout
17 November, 2019 12:39
I've had more fun watching England in the last four years than in the previous decade. He's done a great job. One of the finest performances ever in Test rugby, 3-0 whitewash of the Aussies away, 2x Six Nations titles, plenty of genuinely world class players developed.

Unfortunately our scrum should have been seen as a problem earlier if there was any chance we'd face South Africa. Taking 13 back three players and only 4 props was a bit mistake. Not that any scrummaging tightheads were holding their hands up.

Would like to see him stay on either for another four years or two. He'll be devastated though, and rightly so. Sinckler injury + scrum + players not turning up will take a while to get over.

P G Tips
P G Tips
17 November, 2019 16:23
Agree BO

Let hims stay- 2 years, induct & assist his successor, then handover.

Erasmus built a RWC winning team in 2 years- it can be done, but Eddie can keep the current & developing squad on their toes in preparation.

PG

DanWiley
DanWiley
17 November, 2019 16:28
I think Eddie did really well, but it's time to move on.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 November, 2019 17:44
To answer the thread title. Yes. More of the same.

Eddie masterminded a very good New Zealand team being handed their collective ar$es. That's never happened before and I, for one, would like to see if he can repeat the feat. Plus, looking at the 6N, it is highly likely that England will win the Grand Slam for the next couple of years. Which will give a nice springboard to France 2023. To coin a phrase, "the future is bright".



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/11/2019 17:49 by joethefanatic.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 November, 2019 19:54
I'd stick with Eddie, there is no point in replacing the head coach unless there is an alternative. I'd like to see Alex Dombrandt get a go at 8, don't really understand the front row so cant comment. We also need to introduce a third 10 if Farrell stays at 12.

My biggest concern is that we don't seem to put 2 mega crunch games back to back, we saw it in the lead up to the RWC and it did for us in the end. Very hard to knock getting to the final of the RWC, I'm not ready to have to play against a country managed by Eddie. He stays for me.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
17 November, 2019 22:56
It would be pretty churlish to argue he hasn't been a success, and with the young squad he took to the World Cup, England is very well positioned to remain in the world's top 3 for a decent run. .

Whether it's Edde or someone else, though, England should be aspiring to the standards that the All Blacks set between World Cups, not just looking to peak on a 4-year cycle.

I just have a feeling that another 4 years of Eddie could end in tears though. He's broken a lot of eggs to make his omelette.

gaz59
gaz59
18 November, 2019 07:48
Many sporting success stories show the best time to change leadership is when the team has reached a peak

I think this one has. Keeping Jones will probably lead to a downward path

The problem is finding the right coach who can take to next level

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 November, 2019 08:25
Eddie was interviewed on Breakfast TV, he is staying for the next 2 years. Insightful.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
18 November, 2019 09:09
Quote:
joethefanatic
Eddie masterminded a very good New Zealand team being handed their collective ar$es. That's never happened before

Actually Stuart Lancaster did the same - even more emphatically scoreboard-wise.

Would be interesting for England to have a 3-test series with NZ, who almost invariably take revenge on any team that has the temerity to beat them, with an absolute drubbing.

I know everyone loves the Lions, but I think it's way too big a distraction in the international calendar - i'd rather see England playing the SH nations in the occasional 3-test series.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
18 November, 2019 10:58
Does everyone remember Sir Clive saying judge me on the World Cup.........1999 one!

ballsout
ballsout
18 November, 2019 11:01
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
joethefanatic
Eddie masterminded a very good New Zealand team being handed their collective ar$es. That's never happened before

Actually Stuart Lancaster did the same - even more emphatically scoreboard-wise.

With home advantage, against a team wiped out by a stomach bug in the week. It was a great win, but Eddie's one was far more impressive given the context and performance itself.

sirtidychris
sirtidychris
18 November, 2019 11:10
Eddie was/is a success he himself has evolved as coach since he took over England and is better placed to push on for the win in 4 years time. If we came through the otherside of the draw we probably would have won but Oz followed by Nz was too much to then beat a large highly motivated SA team.

opti
Optimist
18 November, 2019 12:20
'a team wiped out by a stomach bug' . have NZ ever actually lost a game? If it's not a stomach bug it's a dodgy forward pass.

I don't disagree, btw, that the context of the semi-final made it infinitely more significant - but that was an outstanding performance, and was far from the only outstanding performance under Lancaster.

Matt Dawson on the 38-21 win sounds a little familiar: "I can see this being maybe the greatest England victory, ever, at Twickenham. Nothing is springing to mind where they have annihilated the world's best team as they have today... it was an absolutely astonishing performance to win by 17 points."

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
18 November, 2019 13:13
I think that Eddie might go a different route now, the World Cup is done, he was locked into his selections for continuity. He is one to embrace change and he might well go for a different team now.
If so there are some key positions that he can explore 9 and 10, 12 being the most pressing.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

SimonG19
SimonG19
18 November, 2019 13:56
Quote:
Optimist
'a team wiped out by a stomach bug' . have NZ ever actually lost a game? If it's not a stomach bug it's a dodgy forward pass.

Did you hear Steve Hansen's comments after the semi-final?

Of course you will find the odd one-eyed idiot in all countries but to make ridiculous statements based on their views is rather silly.

opti
Optimist
18 November, 2019 14:01
Quote:
SimonG19
Quote:
Optimist
'a team wiped out by a stomach bug' . have NZ ever actually lost a game? If it's not a stomach bug it's a dodgy forward pass.

Did you hear Steve Hansen's comments after the semi-final?

Of course you will find the odd one-eyed idiot in all countries but to make ridiculous statements based on their views is rather silly.

I agree they've become a bit more gracious since they got the World Cup monkey off their back. But they had a fairly extended period where they always seem to have an excuse.

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
18 November, 2019 17:38
I think he did a better job in the first two rather than the last two years. Like all England coaches he ended up in a selection muddle and became unsure of his best combinations/XV/23. He has since admitted he got selection for the RWC final wrong and should have picked Marler ahead of Vunipola and reverted to the Farrell/Tuilagi/Slade axis. I think he should take a step back for the final 2yr of his contract [as planned] and allow another to take the team forward with his support. The coaching team needs to be refreshed for the benefit of all...



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

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ballsout
ballsout
19 November, 2019 00:36
Farrell/Tuilagi/Slade (shudder) wouldn't have made any difference in the Final. It was more likely he was talking about starting Kruis and Marler.

There was no selection muddle, he knew what team he wanted to play for what game, played them, and got to a world cup final. He then persisted when (with the benefit of hindsight) he should have made tweaks.

fat lock
fat lock
19 November, 2019 07:33
I like Eddie's approach, and would be keen to see him stay on and build on what he's achieved so far.

But, you can't ignore some fairly strange selections. Now, I expect his coaches will have had some input into that, so a refresh there may help with fresh views (as long as he doesn't appoint sycophants).
For me his RWC squad selections of Daly, scrum half, Wing, Prop, No 8 all were questionable.
Playing team selections of flyhalf, Daly, No 8 (only due to lack of options) and Wing also appeared less than ideal.
So is he perfect - no. I fact I wonder if he's almost a bit too left field.
Can I see anyone better ?- not till Hooper gets 2 seasons of experience to then be fast tracked in (for clarity on a message ball - that's irony)

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 08:10
Its difficult to get away from the fact that Eddie is one of the best coaches in the world. Gatland, Erasmus, Joseph, Schmidt being the others still active.
The only alternative would be untried, none of those above are available. The RFU want a winning coach with a track record, currently there is no alternative.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 09:39
Quote:
ballsout
There was no selection muddle

I think a 'muddle' is a bit too strong. But usually when head coaches make their selections, they divide opinion. There will be as many people calling for Ford to start as those wanting him on the bench, for example. The weird thing with some of Eddie's selections is that he can mystify 95% of rugby punditry - from the most respected ex-players and journalists down to us pub-bores. And who's to say that his squad mix - too many back 3 players, not enough 3s and 9s - wasn't costly in the end?

Would England have been more or less likely to beat SA in the final if another tight-head and scrum-half had travelled instead of McConnochie, Cokanasiga or Nowell? Reducing Vunipola's workload across the tournament could have paid dividends. Having a bench 9 for the final who could be thrown on at 60 minutes? Joe Marler not having to deal with the distraction of training to cover both sides of the scrum?

Eddie should stop making selections that look like they are designed to demonstrate that only he picks the team, not the media or the public.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 10:00
He is certainly not predictable when it comes to selection, there may have been a driving reason in the lead up to the RWC but now its a blank sheet of paper. Next selection will be interesting.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 10:40
I think he's also talking absolute garbage about Saracens players deciding to stay with their club rather than England. That's the sort of statement that just makes you scratch your head and wonder what on earth his agenda is. George Ford is in a relegation scrap too. We might be too when it comes down to it. Are Sam, Ant, JJ etc going to stay with Bath?

I suppose you could get a bit of resentment from Exeter players, say, towards the Sarries contingent - but even that's a bit far-fetched.

I doubt if the side that runs on against France will contain more than one player from outside the World Cup squad, and even the bench is unlikely to contain more than 1 or 2 new faces. He might retire Youngs, but Spencer will start. He might move Daly, but 15 would be either Ant or Nowell. He might retire Cole, but it will still be Genge on the bench. Ewels could conceivably leapfrop Lawes/Kruis/Launchbury, but it's a long shot. Who is going to break into midfield unless Ford/Faz/Slade/Tuilagi/JJ are injured?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 11:06
Its an idiosyncrasy Opti but is it a major flaw, he assembled a team that got us too the final, we hit a bit of bad luck and might have picked a few other players but there are not many that are better and fewer still that are available.

As for Sarries who knows what effect the clubs actions will have on English and European rugby. For my money the search is on for alternatives Farrell and Itoje are hard to replace but who knows if they will stay there. I could see movement possibly to France. Then Eddies issue is to convince the RFU to go the Erasmus route.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

cb2
cb2
19 November, 2019 11:17
I can't see Sarries players missing out on the 6N. I think they get 25,000 match fees for representing England. That would help with the deposit on a new house.

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 11:20
Yeah - idiosyncrasy is right.

Pretty much any scenario is within the bounds of possibility for Sarries. But i'd imagine the most likely one is that a/ they relish the challenge of staying up and pull together on that, b/ PRL and the RFU will be working with Wray to ensure that he doesn't walk away from the game, and - now that he's coughing up the s and the points - that will involve helping him to repair his reputation, and throwing him a few bones around cap regulations. It would be pretty disastrous for the Prem and for England if Sarries were to implode. Look out for plenty of press articles from RFU/PRL bods saying what a good guy Nigel is.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 11:32
Quote:
Optimist
Yeah - idiosyncrasy is right.
Pretty much any scenario is within the bounds of possibility for Sarries. But i'd imagine the most likely one is that a/ they relish the challenge of staying up and pull together on that, b/ PRL and the RFU will be working with Wray to ensure that he doesn't walk away from the game, and - now that he's coughing up the s and the points - that will involve helping him to repair his reputation, and throwing him a few bones around cap regulations. It would be pretty disastrous for the Prem and for England if Sarries were to implode. Look out for plenty of press articles from RFU/PRL bods saying what a good guy Nigel is.

Sarries won't implode, Wray has made that a super strong group but I can see that squad changing, if not the numbers won't add up. If the squad stays the same there is still something wrong.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
19 November, 2019 11:34
'New Wales coach Wayne Pivac has named New Zealand-born backs Johnny McNicholl and Willis Halaholo in his first squad.'

This is exactly what I don't want to see from Eddie or any alternative England coach. Both of these guys are 29, Biggar is 30, Even Anscombe will be pushing it at 32. Pivac has an opportunity to get some of these guys valuable experience / exposure, why not give the next wave of Welsh 10s a chance (i.e. who will be peak age for next world cup)?



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 11:48
Quote:
shipwrecked
If the squad stays the same there is still something wrong.

I think as someone said above, Williams will go back to Wales, Barritt is close to retirement. I think PRL and other clubs will cut them some slack to get their house in order now that they've taken their 'medicine'. Nobody wants to see any of the players being the losers here.

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 11:52
Halaholo and McNicholl. I hope Pivac isn't going to be one of those SH coaches who just assumes that if a player is from NZ they must automatically be better than someone who came up through the local system. Eddie did his best - but does anyone remember how close we were to having Brad Shields at the World Cup?

P G Tips
P G Tips
19 November, 2019 13:04
Quote:
Optimist
I He might retire Cole, but it will still be Genge on the bench.

Apples & Pears comparison Opti.
Cole is a Tight Head, Genge a Loose Head.

PG

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
19 November, 2019 13:22
I get the concern about Pivac selecting Kiwis but he is a cuter coach than people think. He has also picked 3 20 year olds in the squad.

The selection should be viewed not so much as chosing older players but the type of player he has gone for. Johnny McNicholl and Willis Halahol are very different to the Gatland mould in that they avoid contact rather than try to go through it. If that is the way he is going to play, which is the Scarlets way, then behind a decent pack they could do well. Biggest problem will be can they still defend at the same level.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
19 November, 2019 13:42
Eddie Jone did a great job, but from a selfish point of view I'd like him to move on.....

and take over at Bath

cb2
cb2
19 November, 2019 14:11
I would like to see England move the game on in the next few years. A bit like SCW did between 1999 and 2003.

The 1999 23 who lost to SA featured: Greenwood, Catt, Wilkinson, Dawson, Leonard, Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Back and Dallaglio. He then added a bit of magic from Robinson, a bit of power in Cohen and turned us into winners.

Many of this side can stay together for the next 4 years and, with a few alterations, we can win some slams and go into the tournament as the favourite and not as one of the potential favourites.

I don't like the 2 years plan. I would prefer EJ to stay for 4 years or to give it over to someone else now.

opti
Optimist
19 November, 2019 14:45
I agree with much of that CB - but 2019 was more like the equivalent of 2003 than 1999. And in that sense we are in way better shape. We arrived at the final as favourites even with a very young squad. I'd like to see Eddie aspiring to be like NZ between World Cups when they average 4-5 tries per game and some of their forwards have better skill levels than most other countries' backs.

Saturnine
Cowshed Denizen
19 November, 2019 14:54
Quote:
shipwrecked
I get the concern about Pivac selecting Kiwis but he is a cuter coach than people think. He has also picked 3 20 year olds in the squad.
The selection should be viewed not so much as chosing older players but the type of player he has gone for. Johnny McNicholl and Willis Halahol are very different to the Gatland mould in that they avoid contact rather than try to go through it. If that is the way he is going to play, which is the Scarlets way, then behind a decent pack they could do well. Biggest problem will be can they still defend at the same level.

Yes. Both fly-half options in this squad - Sam Davies & Jarrod Evans - are 26 & 23 respectively.

McNicholl & Halaholo are picked because they offer something different to what's currently there - in Halaholo's case a stepping, elusive centre.

If Pivac can marry more attacking flair to the Gatland/Edwards era of defence & mental strength, Wales should stay there or thereabouts. My concern is that the Wales of old will resurface - some nice attacking rugby coupled with average defence & mental fragility at the sharp end.

Deckchair
Deckchair
19 November, 2019 15:29
If Eddie wants it I reckon he has earned the right to choose to stay on, or not.
Its been a long while since an England rugby fan took genuine pride and pleasure in their World Cup team. Four years ago seems like another age. This current team has power, pace, creativity, grit and high levels of skill - from one to twenty-three. They crushed Australia and blitzed the All Blacks and had the team turned up on the day might have even lifted the cup. Maybe next time.
In the meantime we have an incredibly young, talented and powerful squad to build upon and grow and they are playing a brand of rugby the fans want to see. This in large part is down to Eddie.
Eddie has earned the right to choose, I hope he stays.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
20 November, 2019 00:10
Well, his presumably preferred choice of Australia coach has gone with the appointment of Dave Rennie as Australia coach Have to say not sure I saw that one coming!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 November, 2019 03:50
Of course, New Zealand are looking for a new head coach. Now *that* would be worth watching smiling smiley



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
Clarkey3k
20 November, 2019 08:13
Quote:
ballsout
Farrell/Tuilagi/Slade (shudder) wouldn't have made any difference in the Final. It was more likely he was talking about starting Kruis and Marler.

Just to be clear - Eddie Jones quoted in The Guardian



Adopted players: 2019/20 T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw

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