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charlieboa
charlieboa
01 June, 2020 19:25
I think it will all come out in the wash in the next 2-3 weeks.

If me as a fan being made to wait means it can be handled in a right and proper way then i can cope with that. It is an extraordinary set of challenges players and clubs are facing.

I can imagine some players , who were going to be let go or who wanted to leave but offers have dried up , staying on significantly smaller contracts. Not ideal for them but if it keeps them employed and in the game, buying them a season to prove themselves then great. Its better than most jobs lets face it! For the club they keep more options in the squad and bigger numbers for training at little expense.

Dave248
Dave248
01 June, 2020 20:09
Apologies as I know this keeps getting brought up. Can someone please comment if Iím wrong but at the moment are we looking at both Ben and Will Spencer incoming and a new ten? Thatís the general consensus I thought. Obviously depending on our outgoings could see a couple more potentially. I for one am frustrated but fully understand signings will get announced when right to do so.

charlieboa
charlieboa
01 June, 2020 20:22
Quote:
Dave248
Apologies as I know this keeps getting brought up. Can someone please comment if Iím wrong but at the moment are we looking at both Ben and Will Spencer incoming and a new ten? Thatís the general consensus I thought. Obviously depending on our outgoings could see a couple more potentially. I for one am frustrated but fully understand signings will get announced when right to do so.

Will spencer seems a done deal. Tigers team mates openly talking about the move on twitter.

Ben spencer seemed done but trp saying yest he is going overseas but a lot of people thinking (hoping) that was just ill-informed.

Assume we must be after a 10, lots of links but nothing seems very firm.

As you say depending on who goes i think a prop or two may be needed but heard no viable rumours.

Also think a utility back potentially may be needed if all the out of contract centres/back 3 players leave.

Personally think there may now be more retentions than originally planned and less new signings but we shall see. As it stands we have millions coming off the salary cap if all out of contract guys go. Noguera, thomas, flo, freddie all rumoured to be on a pretty packet.

Ali1969
Ali1969
02 June, 2020 10:17
There are all sorts of legal issues in relation to releasing players to other clubs prior to the official end of the season.

Take Kyle Sinkler leaving Quins and joining Bristol. On 2nd July he becomes a Bristol player and starts training with the team. The current season is recommenced on 2nd August (for example), Sinkler turns out for Bristol and Quins then state hang on, you owe us a transfer fee as the player is officially ours until the end of the season ala Redpath.

On the flip side Quins state to Sinkler well we are no longer financially responsible for you after 1st July so we are not paying your wages are Bristol going to pay the wages of a player not playing for them?

Obviously that is a very basic overview of some of the very complex legal issues to be ironed out and some give and take with the clubs.

I know some of you scorned my post in relation to communication and I understand some of the Staff may be furloughed but take a look at other rugby clubs and sporting clubs to see how they have ensured the interaction has remained with their fans -, it is just good business, you do not let the fires die out, there are an awful lot of young supporters out there who don't understand or care about the complexities and ideology of what is going on they just want regular updates.

An old teacher of mine in law school used to say "Better to drip feed the information than flood the floor - keep the audience interested for if you lose them it is twice as hard to get them back"

Those wise words are true for many walks of life. I feel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2020 11:02 by Ali1969.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 June, 2020 10:23
I'd rather correct information Ali, not stuff that is going to change as a result of the first part of your post.

To counter you quotation, "better to be silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it." I'm happy to wait. As Opti says, "everything has and is continuing to change, everything!"



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 June, 2020 10:24
Ali, Steve Lansdown was very clear on the RUW podcast - the contracts say 1st July not the end of the season (who would have imagined that they wouldn't be one and the same even in January of this year?) and Sinkler, Radradra, Burns, May etc will all be leaving then. Sam Hill could move to Sale and be playing Exeter in the play-offs.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

K-Nut
Bod
02 June, 2020 10:30
Quote:
Ali1969
I know some of you scorned my post in relation to communication and I understand some of the Staff may be furloughed but take a look at other rugby clubs and sporting clubs to see how they have ensured the interaction has remained with their fans -, it is just good business, you do not let the fires die out, there are an awful lot of young supporters out there who don't understand or care about the complexities and ideology of what is going on they just want regular updates.

An old teacher of mine in law school used to say "Better to drip feed the information than flood the floor - keep the audience interested for if you lose them it is twice as hard to get them back"

Those wise words are true for many walks of life. I feel.


A blindingly good point - this already on a few club websites

Myners Enquiry compliance agreement for all Premiership clubs

Zip-diddly on Bath Rugby site since..............22nd May

Indeed shipwrecked


(Sm72)

K-Nut
Bod
02 June, 2020 10:35

MESSAGES->author
Robbinho
02 June, 2020 10:40
Tarquin explained in the post on the 22nd that they were putting more staff on furlough and would be working with a skeleton staff for a period, and that would impact normal relationships with supporters.

Quote:
We continue to operate a small team supporting our players in terms of the training and rehabilitation which is taking place at home, ensuring that when we do return our players are prepared and in the best possible condition. For a short period we now have a very limited commercial and operational staff in place, supporting business critical activity.

Based on that I wouldnít expect there to be a lot if any supporter facing comms at the moment.

Ali1969
Ali1969
02 June, 2020 10:41
BathMatt - I would urge caution when it comes to owners and their comments - Steve Lansdowne would say anything which promotes his cause, my experience in contract law is there are often caveats in contracts which owners employers try their hardest to ignore and negotiate with blusto and hot air in a futile hope of "muddying the waters" - often it comes down to a Court to decide. All I would say if it is as simple as Steve Lansdowne has made out why are there these very public issues. Maybe a bit of Bravado by Mr Lansdowne and not for the first time.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 June, 2020 10:47
Quote:
Ali1969
BathMatt - I would urge caution when it comes to owners and their comments - Steve Lansdowne would say anything which promotes his cause, my experience in contract law is there are often caveats in contracts which owners employers try their hardest to ignore and negotiate with blusto and hot air in a futile hope of "muddying the waters" - often it comes down to a Court to decide. All I would say if it is as simple as Steve Lansdowne has made out why are there these very public issues. Maybe a bit of Bravado by Mr Lansdowne and not for the first time.

He had no doubt - Sinklers contract says that after June 30th he is a free agent (nowt to do with Bristol at that point). Then he has a contract with Bristol saying that he will join them on 1st July (nowt to do with Quins at that point).

Gloucester said exactly the same in relation to J May.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

Ali1969
Ali1969
02 June, 2020 11:07
We live in strange times BathMatt only time will tell whether all these contracts go through without legal challenges or not. Who knows.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 June, 2020 11:11
Quote:
Ali1969
We live in strange times BathMatt only time will tell whether all these contracts go through without legal challenges or not. Who knows.

I think that the only complexity would be if Premiership Rugby tried to get them all to stay at their clubs but in those cases who pays their (higher or lower) salary? What happens to salary caps? I would guess that they will want to keep out of it.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

K-Nut
Bod
02 June, 2020 11:35
Boffelli to Racing?

Absolute class, and he won't be expensive either

(Sm72)

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 June, 2020 11:38
Quote:
Bod
Boffelli to Racing?
Absolute class, and he won't be expensive either

(Sm72)

yes, good player in multiple positions. we won't outbid racing though and presumably playing with Juan Imhoff would be attractive too.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

Satchmo
Satchmo
02 June, 2020 15:37
Having scrolled through SW post about French Top 14 clubs departures I see that Colin Slade has been released from Pau. Don't know if he is injury prone or anything else but at 32 he might be able to do a job for us.



Jack Walker 2018/19 Adopted player
Will Vaughan 2019/20 Adopted player
Joe Cokanasiga 2020/21 Adopted player

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
02 June, 2020 15:45
Quote:
Ali1969
BathMatt - I would urge caution when it comes to owners and their comments - Steve Lansdowne would say anything which promotes his cause, my experience in contract law ...

Key terms would be defined surely? Something like "the season" doesn't come without a definition as to when it starts and ends. I don't believe any amendment to that, even if a season extension was mutually agreed, would supersede players current employment contracts (as they are most likely to be bound by the definitions of the old season) would it?

charlieboa
charlieboa
02 June, 2020 16:16
Quote:
Satchmo
Having scrolled through SW post about French Top 14 clubs departures I see that Colin Slade has been released from Pau. Don't know if he is injury prone or anything else but at 32 he might be able to do a job for us.

Think he has already announced his plans? Think it was nz or japan?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 June, 2020 16:37
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
Ali1969
BathMatt - I would urge caution when it comes to owners and their comments - Steve Lansdowne would say anything which promotes his cause, my experience in contract law ...

Key terms would be defined surely? Something like "the season" doesn't come without a definition as to when it starts and ends. I don't believe any amendment to that, even if a season extension was mutually agreed, would supersede players current employment contracts (as they are most likely to be bound by the definitions of the old season) would it?

It seems that the normal rugby 'season' in terms of contracts for the Premiership players is defined as 1st July to 30th June. That is certainly the definition of a 'salary cap year' which would make sense in terms of clubs accounting.

"Salary Cap Year" means the period between 1 July of one year and 30 June of the following year;

"Season" means the period from 1 August to 31 May (inclusive) in any Salary Cap Year;

[d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net]



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

charlieboa
charlieboa
02 June, 2020 16:47
Hoops last month said he was working on assumption of 30 june/1 july.

Said it would need agreement across all players and clubs to change it which wont happen.

The grey area for me is season restart and do we try and keep some on for a few months extra who have nothing in place and how does that work in terms of cap etc.

Should see a good flow of contract news this month you would assume.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 June, 2020 17:15
David Humphreys has left Gloucester



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Bepetas
Bepetas
02 June, 2020 17:44
Blimey, uncomfortable times at Kingsholm. I wonder if a potential head coach has said they want the job but not prepared to answer to a DOR?

charlieboa
charlieboa
02 June, 2020 18:04
Howley and young?

Young has said this week he wants a coaching role rather than dor.

dcsh
dcsh
02 June, 2020 18:20
Quote:
charlieboa
Howley and young?
Young has said this week he wants a coaching role rather than dor.
How much would you bet on it being Howley? Or importantly how would he? Using his official mobile phone I suppose.

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
02 June, 2020 22:00
Quote:
charlieboa
Howley and young?
Young has said this week he wants a coaching role rather than dor.

Both seem like very good blokes ... good coaches though?

Amazed Humphreys wasn't let go when Ackermann was signed. Will be interesting to find out if it's Cipriani poisoning another well or if it was a different player(s) who sought to undermine the coaching set up by talking direct with the new CEO about how the game should be coached ... have to say that does sound remarkably like a Cipriani thing to do.

gaz59
gaz59
02 June, 2020 22:36
Quote:

Uh? You're not good enough to be our DoR so here's your P45 but in the meantime can you help us find your replacement

Forgive me if I struggle to make some sense of that

dannyf2
dannyf2
02 June, 2020 22:36
Rory Teague leading the coup?

charlieboa
charlieboa
03 June, 2020 07:41
I think teague has a bit of the mike fords about him shall we say based on his time in france.

Rumours that a large part of it is cost cutting though which would make sense.

Cant imagine our coaching set up is one of the more expensive out there but who knows.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
03 June, 2020 07:42
Quote:
gaz59
Quote:

Uh? You're not good enough to be our DoR so here's your P45 but in the meantime can you help us find your replacement

Forgive me if I struggle to make some sense of that

Itís not uncommon, I have acquaintances that were made redundant when their job was moved to Bangkok. They were paid significant amounts of money to train their replacements so a win all round.

Humphreys is probably being paid to assist so why not?

opti
Optimist
03 June, 2020 10:01
Quote:
dcsh
How much would you bet on it being Howley? Or importantly how would he? Using his official mobile phone I suppose.

V. funny dcsh!

gaz59
gaz59
03 June, 2020 10:03
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
dcsh
How much would you bet on it being Howley? Or importantly how would he? Using his official mobile phone I suppose.

V. funny dcsh!

+1

Bepetas
Bepetas
03 June, 2020 12:16
With Sarries players potentially available on a year loan, lots of people (including me) have been very sceptical about the long term value to the club borrowing a player for a season. However, if there was a special player (Maro Itoje for example), it may provide an opportunity to persuade a player their future is brighter with the loan club.

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
03 June, 2020 12:30
Quote:
Bepetas
With Sarries players potentially available on a year loan, lots of people (including me) have been very sceptical about the long term value to the club borrowing a player for a season. However, if there was a special player (Maro Itoje for example), it may provide an opportunity to persuade a player their future is brighter with the loan club.

Slight problem with that is you'd have to find space for them in cap as they wouldn't fall under either marquee exemption as far as I understand it. Sanderson acknowledged that there's a risk with young players going out on loan that they may decide to stay and I'm sure the same is true of the senior ones.

Tbh the more I think of the mess that is ahead especially if PRL try and play the remaining games and start the season late I can see Saracens "special" players being relatively ok with sitting a portion of the season out and getting themselves ready for (potentially) the Lions tour.
As it was there was already some mumbling that Premiership players in the top 2 would be at a disadvanatge in selection as they would be playing a final a week before the touring party set off. Right now if the Lions keep to the same schedule I can see all top four still waiting to play semi and finals after the Lions have left. I wonder how the Internationals in those teams will feel?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 June, 2020 12:34
OM has there been any talk of whether the loaning club pays the full wages of the player? If that is the case I can't see Maro going anywhere in the Premiership either on loan or otherwise. I also cant see how he would be good value for Bath, we would be better off getting 2 'very nearly' top class players to fill some holes in our squad.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

Dave248
Dave248
03 June, 2020 13:58
Bristol Bears have just announced 2020/21 playing squad - confirmed players leaving and incoming players. I did tweet Bath Rugby asking if we will have any updates soon but wishful thinking I expect!!

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
03 June, 2020 14:19
Thanks for clarifying the definition of the season BathMatt. Thought it would be in there somewhere.

I have no idea about loanees. There have been several suggestions that the Bristol boys; Malins and Earl are having at least a part of their salaries subsidised but I don't know what percentage. A Bristol supporter suggested it was the majority but I don't know what basis he has for that.

It will be interesting to see where Maro (and at this stage Mako) end up next season as both are open as far as I know. Like you I'm not sure on the logic of Maro to another Premiership club unless the terms are very favourable. The one club that I might see as an exception would be Chiefs for whom a World Class lock could well make the difference at the top level they're fighting out (in Europe) but I can doubt any of the current squad will end up there.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 June, 2020 14:38
Quote:
OldMarovian
Thanks for clarifying the definition of the season BathMatt. Thought it would be in there somewhere.
I have no idea about loanees. There have been several suggestions that the Bristol boys; Malins and Earl are having at least a part of their salaries subsidised but I don't know what percentage. A Bristol supporter suggested it was the majority but I don't know what basis he has for that.

It will be interesting to see where Maro (and at this stage Mako) end up next season as both are open as far as I know. Like you I'm not sure on the logic of Maro to another Premiership club unless the terms are very favourable. The one club that I might see as an exception would be Chiefs for whom a World Class lock could well make the difference at the top level they're fighting out (in Europe) but I can doubt any of the current squad will end up there.

agreed, and thanks for the info.

(I note on the Bristol press release that the two sarries loan boys are due to join in august)



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
03 June, 2020 15:44
Quote:
BathMatt53
(I note on the Bristol press release that the two sarries loan boys are due to join in august)

My guess would be that when the contracts where agreed Saracens thought they might still possibly be able to fit the European game before the start of next season?

charlieboa
charlieboa
03 June, 2020 17:16
Sounds like all will become clear in next few days with a full confirmed squad for next season (according to Somerset live article on jackson willison)

charlieboa
charlieboa
03 June, 2020 17:35
Have to say i was rather hoping to be drip fed loads of awesome news over the next 3 weeks but will settle for any news at any time tbh

Bepetas
Bepetas
04 June, 2020 15:59
With talk of smaller squads, do you think any current players will be tried in other positions? Maybe Roko or Ruaridh McConnochie at 13?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 June, 2020 16:19
Quote:
Bepetas
With talk of smaller squads, do you think any current players will be tried in other positions? Maybe Roko or Ruaridh McConnochie at 13?

I'd love to see Ruaridh McConnochie at 13, more of the ball, fast, fantastic hands elusive, bit like JJ of old!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
04 June, 2020 16:33
Quote:
Bepetas
With talk of smaller squads, do you think any current players will be tried in other positions? Maybe Roko or Ruaridh McConnochie at 13?

Coka at 13?

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
04 June, 2020 16:38
JC anywhere.........just get him fit and on the pitch

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 June, 2020 16:41
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
Bepetas
With talk of smaller squads, do you think any current players will be tried in other positions? Maybe Roko or Ruaridh McConnochie at 13?

Coka at 13?

Not sure about that, powerful attacker but defence, not really that savvy yet. 13 needs to be agile and on their toes that's not our Joe yet. I'd like rather see him coming of his wing in the 10/12 channel.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
hasta
04 June, 2020 17:08
I prefer the idea of Ruraidh joining the line at 15.

gaz59
gaz59
04 June, 2020 17:55
Quote:
hasta
I prefer the idea of Ruraidh joining the line at 15.

Yes, and counter attacking collecting a kick from deep

charlieboa
charlieboa
04 June, 2020 18:04
Utility players are gold dust.

Sale have a rare beast these days....a prop who can do a good job both sides from memory.

We increasingly have players who can cover the back 5 of the scrum.

Wonder if the interest in isaac douglas is genuine. Can play 10, centre and back 3 apparently.

Rmc has looked great at 15 , not convinced about 13- pretty tricky position technically.

Coko at 12 maybe be i agree, use him wisely off the wing. When he first joined he popped up all over the place and was involved v heavily.

I reckon tdg could cover 12, 13 and 15 pretty well and 10 if desperate

MESSAGES->author
hasta
04 June, 2020 18:11
Rhys/Redpath being able to pick up options from Coka/JJ/RMac with Ant waiting to burn anyone away from a break. Sounds nice winking smiley

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 June, 2020 18:15
Is max o just 12 or also 13 like wright?



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

charlieboa
charlieboa
04 June, 2020 18:19
He said, and sure he was just being self deprecating, that he is too slow for 13. Said he is more of a jamie roberts style 12 (but has better hands tbf from what i have seen, likes an offload). I am always overly harsh on roberts as we had him at his worst, in his early to mid 20s he was world class.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2020 18:20 by charlieboa.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 June, 2020 18:22
Max O isn't that slow at all!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

Bepetas
Bepetas
04 June, 2020 20:56
What about other players in the pack? could a hooker step into the back row like Dave Ward did at Quins or Ash Johnson at Wasps? Tom Doherty has played 7s, could he do a job in the back row? I've not seen him play

theredseat
theredseat
04 June, 2020 21:26
Signing news in the Telegraph tomorrow it seems.

[twitter.com]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 June, 2020 21:26
Matt Banahan



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
Robbinho
04 June, 2020 22:42
Have just seen it - Ben Spencer, Will Spencer and Juan Schoeman - a prop for the Sharks in SA.

This is Schoeman - 122kg, 28 year old loosehead: [sharksrugby.co.za]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2020 22:48 by Robbinho.

charlieboa
charlieboa
04 June, 2020 22:48
[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Loosehead. Noguera out? Concerns over nathan catt? Sounded like he expected to be out til the new year at least

Given hoops said he wanted to a focus on the backs must be expecting more than b spencer? Tbf we have lots of good young backs coming through.

W spencer is a smart bit of business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2020 22:49 by charlieboa.

MESSAGES->author
Robbinho
04 June, 2020 22:55
Good to have Ben Spencer confirmed after that suggestion in the Rugby Paper he was going abroad.

There is that still that fly half shaped hole though.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
04 June, 2020 23:04
Quote:
Robbinho
Have just seen it - Ben Spencer, Will Spencer and Juan Schoeman - a prop for the Sharks in SA.
This is Schoeman - 122kg, 28 year old loosehead: [sharksrugby.co.za]

Very much a bit part player according to the minutes played, guess he is coming in as (good value) squad cover for Obano and Boyce? Donít know anything about him, but fingers crossed.

Good to have the Spencers confirmed.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

charlieboa
charlieboa
04 June, 2020 23:13
Assume so matt, cover for obano and boyce with doubts over when/if catt will be back.

Having vaughan as effectively third choice would have made me nervous so happy with this.

Hopefully a 10 on the radar buy who knows.... after that may well be job done if we are retaining a few potentially like thomas....

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
05 June, 2020 07:56
Huge mistake by the club to release Homer, the rest were mostly rumoured so nothing exciting in the announcement and generally underwhelming.

Guess we donít know what financial constraints the club has due to covid19 crisis.

MESSAGES->author
Robbinho
05 June, 2020 08:29
Just because a player is leaving doesnít mean theyíre being released. They may want to leave, or be unable to reach an agreement with the club on wages, contract length etc.

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
05 June, 2020 08:30
Quote:
OutsideBath
Huge mistake by the club to release Homer, the rest were mostly rumoured so nothing exciting in the announcement and generally underwhelming.
Guess we donít know what financial constraints the club has due to covid19 crisis.

Who says we released Tom H, rather than him deciding to 'see the world' with his final contract?
It also opens up opportunities for TdG to get more game time.

P G Tips
P G Tips
05 June, 2020 08:42
Quote:
charlieboa
Assume so matt, cover for obano and boyce with doubts over when/if catt will be back.
Having vaughan as effectively third choice would have made me nervous so happy with this.

Hopefully a 10 on the radar buy who knows.... after that may well be job done if we are retaining a few potentially like thomas....

Catt is still in the squad but currently in rehab.
Thomas is retained - contract extension.

For those who haven't the time to read the narrative all signings, extensions, departures and promotions are listed at the bottom of the Offy article.

PG

Bepetas
Bepetas
05 June, 2020 12:40
So, I'd guess the club are looking for a tighthead, openside and flyhalf?
What about departures from the academy? seven new youngsters in, one off to ospreys and one promoted to senior squad, 19 is a big senior academy.

gaz59
gaz59
05 June, 2020 13:15
Juan Schoeman looks handy from this but then I guess it is bound to

[www.youtube.com]

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
05 June, 2020 13:23
Quote:
Bepetas
So, I'd guess the club are looking for a tighthead, openside and flyhalf?
What about departures from the academy? seven new youngsters in, one off to ospreys and one promoted to senior squad, 19 is a big senior academy.

Yep I notice that they mentioned 11 in the press release but no mention of these

Sam Elrick
Arthur Cordwell
Kieran Verden
Simone Elrick
Oil Cattell
Tom Jeanes
Xavier Hastings
Will Butt

Any info on these would be useful.



Adopted player 20/21: Will Spencer - welcome home http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/105/105_0_1597354200.jpg

http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/105/105_0_1597330055.jpghttp://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/105/105_0_1597330111.jpg

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 June, 2020 13:53
I think that we are pretty much OK for back row. Spencer coming in can allow McNally to 6, then Miles Reid. Add Bayliss, Ellis, TF, Zach, Sam U, Williams. Then a few academy such as Hastings and Merigan who should be able to start coming into matches as they hit 20 years old.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

charlieboa
charlieboa
05 June, 2020 13:54
Will butt is mentioned by hooper so assume he stays but no idea on the rest....

theredseat
theredseat
05 June, 2020 14:48
Quote:
BathMatt53
I think that we are pretty much OK for back row. Spencer coming in can allow McNally to 6, then Miles Reid. Add Bayliss, Ellis, TF, Zach, Sam U, Williams. Then a few academy such as Hastings and Merigan who should be able to start coming into matches as they hit 20 years old.

McNally has said he's not really mobile enough to play 6 and only did it for Irish out of necessity. Don't think he's ever played there since joining Bath so he's probably only an emergency option. Think we may be a body short there

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 June, 2020 14:51
Quote:
theredseat
Quote:
BathMatt53
I think that we are pretty much OK for back row. Spencer coming in can allow McNally to 6, then Miles Reid. Add Bayliss, Ellis, TF, Zach, Sam U, Williams. Then a few academy such as Hastings and Merigan who should be able to start coming into matches as they hit 20 years old.

McNally has said he's not really mobile enough to play 6 and only did it for Irish out of necessity. Don't think he's ever played there since joining Bath so he's probably only an emergency option. Think we may be a body short there

Yes possibly. as ever its dependent on injuries I guess - I'm thinking that we barely had TF and MR last year but I would assume that (unfortunately) one or two will get crocked again. Also not sure on International absences this coming 18 months.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

charlieboa
charlieboa
05 June, 2020 18:11
Cordwell and verden must be 21 (or will turn 21 before next season). Would have been promoted to senior squad of staying?

Interesting to see if they replace nixon

charlieboa
charlieboa
05 June, 2020 18:15
I think back 5 of the scrum in interesting.

Lost douglas, garvey, davies and flo. Only will spencer in.

I would be very happy to see reid and bayliss get lots of game time and call on the likes of merigan in a crisis but does feel like we are maybe one option light.

Wonder if we arent doing much proactively there with the priority a 10 but if the right player becomes available we are very open to it

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
05 June, 2020 18:43
Outside the remit of the thread but are young back row players just allowed to develop according to their natural abilities of are thy steered according to game trends?

By that I mean are 6,7 and 8 actively trained to hit hard but low as a result of the tackle laws or selected as a specific line out addition, that sort of thing in the Tom Croft vein.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

charlieboa
charlieboa
06 June, 2020 09:05
[www.ultimaterugby.com]

Doesnt sound like someone imminently joining bath sadly bathrugbymatt.

What options are we down to at 10? Toomua? Lailifaano? Foley? Any others?

Who are the 10s at jaguares?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 June, 2020 09:56
Quote:
charlieboa
https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/damian-willemse-ready-to-make-number-10-jersey-his-own/627634
Doesnt sound like someone imminently joining bath sadly bathrugbymatt.

What options are we down to at 10? Toomua? Lailifaano? Foley? Any others?

Who are the 10s at jaguares?

Lozowski?

The 10s at jaguares are all pretty inexperienced.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 June, 2020 10:00
Quote:
shipwrecked
Outside the remit of the thread but are young back row players just allowed to develop according to their natural abilities of are thy steered according to game trends?
By that I mean are 6,7 and 8 actively trained to hit hard but low as a result of the tackle laws or selected as a specific line out addition, that sort of thing in the Tom Croft vein.

Even in relation to professionals there was an article about Douglas and Ellis both swapping (lock and back row) ellis had to lose a couple of stone, douglas had to put it on. Also Curry has apparantly bulked up for his new role as an 8.

Depends what you mean by 'young' really - even at U15 players are getting swapped around as they change body shape and speed. All players from u9s will be trained to hit hard and low these days ('steal the sock' and 'tag the tail' for the u9s!)



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

dcsh
dcsh
06 June, 2020 10:34
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
charlieboa
https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/damian-willemse-ready-to-make-number-10-jersey-his-own/627634
Doesnt sound like someone imminently joining bath sadly bathrugbymatt.

What options are we down to at 10? Toomua? Lailifaano? Foley? Any others?

Who are the 10s at jaguares?

Lozowski?

The 10s at jaguares are all pretty inexperienced.
Lozowski is not exactly experience at 10, he has barely played there since heís been at Sarries and would be their 4th choice. Maybe heíll re-establish himself as a fly half at 27, but Iím not sure Bath should take that chance.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 June, 2020 10:38
Iím not from Bath so question to those of you that are. Do you support the clubís aim for 50% locals in the squad?

If you do would you still support the aim of it meant we never won a trophy?

Personally I couldnít care less where a player is from as long as they are good enough for us to win. Just interested in the locals view point.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
06 June, 2020 10:50
It's not 50% locals, it's 50% academy products.

dcsh
dcsh
06 June, 2020 10:54
Itís an aim not a strict quota, so yes if the academy can produce players of the required quality I support it. Only time will tell if trophies are won, but given its over 22 years since our last major trophy and 24 year since we were last English Champions you can hardly say the the previous approaches were working.

In a salary cap constrained world, with the cap likely to reduce for the continued survival of the clubs, producing your own young players is simply the best way to ensure you have a fully stocked squad.

charlieboa
charlieboa
06 June, 2020 10:55
I support the aim tho can understand others thinking its nonsense.

I think coming through school, academy etc together can give an intangible edge and unity sometimes.

It is probably overstated but do think it helps give the club an identity and culture. In terms of marginal gains in a salary apped environment i can see its worth.

Do understand that people will think its mumbo jumbo.

The best example i can think of was watching the likes of luke cowan-dickie and henry slade playing sarries after the salary cap revelations. I felt their burning sense of injustice and their westcountry roots / team unity and love for the club made them unplayable that day- was great to witness. Easy to argue you can get thay people pulled together from all over the place but i just like the concept of 50% homegrown- gives focus on school rugby and academy investment and loads of good reasons for that in terms of salary cap as well

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 June, 2020 10:55
Quote:
hasta
It's not 50% locals, it's 50% academy products.

OK same question applies.

charlieboa
charlieboa
06 June, 2020 11:07
Vast majority of our academy intake is local i.e. banes, wiltshire, dorset... with majority of those going to beechen at least for 6th form. Think 4 of the 7 joining senior academy are beechen?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 June, 2020 11:51
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
It's not 50% locals, it's 50% academy products.

OK same question applies.

I think that the question was the wrong way around. IMO Bath sees a strong academy intake as a way to be successful (in the Exe and Sarries model).



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 June, 2020 12:25
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
It's not 50% locals, it's 50% academy products.

OK same question applies.

I think that the question was the wrong way around. IMO Bath sees a strong academy intake as a way to be successful (in the Exe and Sarries model).

Didnít Sarries start their route to success with a significant number of imports?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 June, 2020 12:29
Quote:
OutsideBath
Iím not from Bath so question to those of you that are. Do you support the clubís aim for 50% locals in the squad?
If you do would you still support the aim of it meant we never won a trophy?

Personally I couldnít care less where a player is from as long as they are good enough for us to win. Just interested in the locals view point.

Not local, (now) but I'd support it, does't the fact you are 'defending your own turf' make for greater commitment.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 June, 2020 12:37
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
OutsideBath
Quote:
hasta
It's not 50% locals, it's 50% academy products.

OK same question applies.

I think that the question was the wrong way around. IMO Bath sees a strong academy intake as a way to be successful (in the Exe and Sarries model).

Didnít Sarries start their route to success with a significant number of imports?

...they did indeed, but they maintained it through their extremely talented academy kids supplemented with the world class stars - same as Exe do now and also Bristol are trying to do.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

JFPC
JFPC
06 June, 2020 12:40
Without a strong local element to the club, it could easily become a slippery slope towards franchises.

If you only care about winning and don't care where the players are from, why do you care what the team is called, or where their 'home' matches are played? If you want a 'winning team' join up with Exeter and Bristol into a South West franchise...



Adopted player 2019/20 Will Chudley. Weird split household co-parented
player 2020 Josh Matavesi

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 June, 2020 12:42
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
OutsideBath
Iím not from Bath so question to those of you that are. Do you support the clubís aim for 50% locals in the squad?
If you do would you still support the aim of it meant we never won a trophy?

Personally I couldnít care less where a player is from as long as they are good enough for us to win. Just interested in the locals view point.

Not local, (now) but I'd support it, does't the fact you are 'defending your own turf' make for greater commitment.

In the professional game I'm not sure it does. However the initial comment was to do with me disagreeing with the clubs 50% academy product aim and if this was more to do with the fact I have no connection to Bath or the surrounding area or not. The couple of subsequent comments would suggest I was right that not being a local does give differing views on how we want the club to go forward.

bardofavon
bardofavon
06 June, 2020 12:48
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Bepetas
So, I'd guess the club are looking for a tighthead, openside and flyhalf?
What about departures from the academy? seven new youngsters in, one off to ospreys and one promoted to senior squad, 19 is a big senior academy.

Yep I notice that they mentioned 11 in the press release but no mention of these

Sam Elrick
Arthur Cordwell
Kieran Verden
Simone Elrick
Oil Cattell
Tom Jeanes
Xavier Hastings
Will Butt

Any info on these would be useful.

hooper mentioned will butt when he was talking about the new squad's options in the centre so one assumes he has been promoted to the senior squad. butt and ojomoh are a 'team' or have been in the past for bath age group and beechen.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 June, 2020 13:40
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
shipwrecked
Outside the remit of the thread but are young back row players just allowed to develop according to their natural abilities of are thy steered according to game trends?
By that I mean are 6,7 and 8 actively trained to hit hard but low as a result of the tackle laws or selected as a specific line out addition, that sort of thing in the Tom Croft vein.

Even in relation to professionals there was an article about Douglas and Ellis both swapping (lock and back row) ellis had to lose a couple of stone, douglas had to put it on. Also Curry has apparantly bulked up for his new role as an 8.

Depends what you mean by 'young' really - even at U15 players are getting swapped around as they change body shape and speed. All players from u9s will be trained to hit hard and low these days ('steal the sock' and 'tag the tail' for the u9s!)

Thanks Matt, its just that we had for example Dan Lydiate's style of tackle spawning Sam Underhill and Olly Cracknell at Ospreys, I just wondered if a particular style was encouraged to fit with a particular future style of play.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

MESSAGES->author
hasta
06 June, 2020 14:37
I don't really care about 'local' vs 'wherever else they come from'. But that's not what the 50% academy target is about. It's about salary cap management, in terms of credits to the cap, lower salaries than if we buy everyone in, creating a pipeline of talent to step in in case of injury crisis or a superstar suddenly pricing themselves out of the club, as well as a core of players who know each other well and have played with each other for ages.

dannyf2
dannyf2
06 June, 2020 15:18
I think there is an element of partisanship too - to create some 'fire' in the squad's motivation. To be absolute on that policy would be silly, but I like the intention to have more players that are genuine supporters of Bath Rugby too, rather than journeyman professionals.
Look at Athletic Bilbao in the Basque country, who have an unwritten policy to do the same - and have always punched well above their weight in Spanish football.

charlieboa
charlieboa
06 June, 2020 15:26
Interview with hoops on radio bris this afternoon worth a listen.

Nothing earth shattering but good to hear his thoughts on incomings, outgoings etc

Thought schoeman has a lot of potential to be improved and will be over with his family soon (will have to quarantine).

Said will spencer is a really passionate bath man and was delighted to be offered the chance to come back. Hoops clearly rated him when they were playing together and thinks he will add to the ball carrying of the team.

Ben spencer moving down imminently with his young family. Thinks his basics are excellent and clearly hopes his speed of service will help us.

Implied elements of homer going were personal (not as in a personality clash as was v complimentary) but didnt dodge that its his call and one with the cap in mind along with wanting to ensure tdg gets more game time.

Said he sees tdg primarily as a 15 but someone that can play centre and at a push 10 but will get games.

On further recruitment the only area he mentioned was a ball playing back, someone who can play 10 but not exclusively 10. Made me feel as if he has someone specific in mind (maybe we are talking to one or two already). Reiterated that recruitment decisions stay with you for a while so has to be right person. Said matavesi could cover rhys but defo wants another option there which is encouraging.

Wasnt interested in talking about burgess comments on fords but was angry about cup final comments and didnt pull any punches

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 June, 2020 15:32
Quote:
Charlieboa
On further recruitment the only area he mentioned was a ball playing back, someone who can play 10 but not exclusively 10.

Can't help thinking that AL fits that niche!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

charlieboa
charlieboa
06 June, 2020 15:37
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Charlieboa
On further recruitment the only area he mentioned was a ball playing back, someone who can play 10 but not exclusively 10.

Can't help thinking that AL fits that niche!

Lozowski , toomua and lailifaaino are the names i keep thinking. Would be pretty happy with any of those and would turn our recruitment from decent to excellent i think

Bepetas
Bepetas
06 June, 2020 16:24
Quote:
charlieboa
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Charlieboa
On further recruitment the only area he mentioned was a ball playing back, someone who can play 10 but not exclusively 10.

Can't help thinking that AL fits that niche!

Lozowski , toomua and lailifaaino are the names i keep thinking. Would be pretty happy with any of those and would turn our recruitment from decent to excellent i think

Stade Francais are struggling, how about Nicolas Sanchez? They have some handy tight heads too in Luke Tagi and Giorgi Melikidze.

There are some quality options in NZ too, David Havili at Crusaders, Mitch Hunt at Highlanders, Tiaan Falcon at Chiefs, Jackson Garden-Bachop at Hurricanes... The Blues have 5 fly-halfs including Beauden Barrett and Dan Carter, You'd think Otere Black and Stephen Perofeta would be struggling for game time.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
06 June, 2020 16:43
I really think they should be a 10 who can play elsewhere rather than a centre who can play 10. Matavesi, Redpath, TdG and the kids can cover the latter.

dcsh
dcsh
06 June, 2020 16:50
Quote:
hasta
I really think they should be a 10 who can play elsewhere rather than a centre who can play 10. Matavesi, Redpath, TdG and the kids can cover the latter.
I fully agree with this, 2 specialist 10 who could slot in elsewhere and 2 centres that can slot in at 10 give so much flexibility and depth.

Edit:2000 posts and still awaiting a new fly half...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2020 16:51 by dcsh.

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