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Explanation Please
Discussion started by CraigR (IP Logged), 01 December, 2019 14:05
CraigR
CraigR
01 December, 2019 14:05
Hello could the experts on rules help me here, to say I don't understand this would be an understatement. How having been found guilty of breaking the wage cap for the previous three season can Saracens be allowed to keep the same squad, which must still be breaking the wage cap and then add Elliot Daly who lets face it is not going to be paid peanuts? Next Question Could Exeter Chiefs probably the most affected by Saracens cheating, lets call it what its, take legal action for compensation or is this outside the rules of the Rugby Premiership? Thanks in advance, C

MESSAGES->author
hasta
01 December, 2019 14:11
Their squad certainly changed over the summer. But I believe Premier Rugby have asked for a mid-season audit to check on the finances.

Exeter maybe could take legal action, but proving would be very difficult. This is the best discussion on it I've seen.

John Tee
John Tee
01 December, 2019 14:32
depends if the terms are 'likely ' which might be applicable in any civilian proceedings.

I wouldnt mind that because i think the current rules havent allowed a just punishment.

I would have hoped the other clubs would be more vocally supportive of the chief owners stance but they dont appear to be ..?

hmmmm....

DanWiley
DanWiley
01 December, 2019 14:33
My take on it would be that they have been fined and deducted points for the historic abuse of the cap. These co-investments count towards the salery cap on the year that the loan from wray was made. If they haven't made any this year them no problem. If they have made some this year and declare it as part of the cap, which they still can, no problem. I guess they could just not register any players they have yet played?

Long term they'll either need to find a new mechanism or trim the squad a bit.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
01 December, 2019 14:42
Ex post facto laws are generally thought to be in pretty poor form. But definitely the legacy of doping (financial or otherwise) lingers beyond the immediate effect and will need to be considered.

hantssabre
hantssabre
01 December, 2019 17:10
Do we really need another thread on this subject!

BathHalfFull
BathHalfFull
01 December, 2019 17:18
Forgive any legal ignorance on my part but isn't part of the issue that if a bunch of their players had big lump sums effectively paid to them by way of investments then while those lump sums are historic, they are still a big part of the overall deal that significantly topped up earnings. Even if the players salaries are under the cap for this season, Sarries only have their services because they sweetened the pot with the investments and so the club are still benefitting from the services of players who are there due to payments that have been found to be against the rules.

Does that make sense? It's a bit like a sprinter being caught for steroids and just saying, ok I'll stop taking them now....despite still benefitting from the incredible advantages of having taken the steroids.

DanWiley
DanWiley
01 December, 2019 17:24
As I understand it, it's the loan is the big that's considered salery. If they'd just given those players an extra £100k a year or so ago you wouldn't expect that to somehow still count towards their salery this year, the loan is just the same.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
01 December, 2019 20:43
But you would Dan - salary under the salary cap is evenly spread over the length of the contract, you can't load one year.

warrenball
warrenball
01 December, 2019 20:49
The big problem is that none of us really know the full reason for the judgement and highlights the need for justice not only to be done but also seen to be done by releasing the full text of the decision.

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 09:01
'The big problem is that none of us really know the full reason for the judgement'

That's true. But the reaction of the other clubs, players and coaches is enough to inform my opinion on this. £5m and 35 points is a massive sanction, yet the only people i've heard expressing any sympathy for them are Stephen Jones and Chris Ashton. QED.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
02 December, 2019 09:11
Part of me wonders if, mathematically, there is a way that the clubs could collude to ensure that Salaries* are relegated.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 09:57
Salaries Ö v good Joe!

But also - I really can't see how that could happen, even in a slightly hypothetical/fantastical way. Would require teams to throw games against a relegation contender - eg is there any scenario in which we would field a weakened team against Tigers?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2019 09:59 by Optimist.

P G Tips
P G Tips
02 December, 2019 09:57
We know the reason- breach of Salary Cap rules, related to several player joint ventures largely funded by Nigel Wray.

What we do not know is the detail or what other areas of cap rules they may have breached.


PG

DanWiley
DanWiley
02 December, 2019 10:19
"Would require teams to throw games against a relegation contender - eg is there any scenario in which we would field a weakened team against Tigers?"

I'd really hope rugby is more mature than that. Cheating in order to apply summary justice to a team that have been caught cheating but (heavily) sanctioned for it I would find rather distasteful.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
02 December, 2019 10:19
Quote:
Optimist
Salaries Ö v good Joe!

I see some forums are calling them $aracen$.

I think we are stuck with them as they are until contract renewals. Some might leave now that their direct pay is no longer supplemented and the depth of squad will be affected as they increase some pay to retain but it will be a gradual process.

2 seasons?

DanWiley
DanWiley
02 December, 2019 10:30
"But you would Dan - salary under the salary cap is evenly spread over the length of the contract, you can't load one year."

In some ways that might make it easier to manage though? If they've only got 1 player (I'm sure they have more, but for example) who took a £100k loan when they signed last year. They got hit for £33k of that last year, this year they have to declare £33k and next year as well. Rather than having a grumpy player that's just lost part of their salary you have to chose not to register a junior player.

Maybe when they look at this season's spending they will find they are unable to keep below and get fined again. I guess we can't know until the end of the season though I have a feeling PRL will be sympathetic to them making an effort.

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 10:43
'I have a feeling PRL will be sympathetic to them making an effort.'

I agree. It's hardly in PRL's interest to drive Wray out of the game, or to push Sarries under.

cb2
cb2
02 December, 2019 11:21
I am not sure what the PRL are all about. Are they working together to grow the sport? Are they open to new ideas or more like a closed shop? Is the average attendance good enough for this stage of a pro sport or are the figures given extra padding by these stadium matches?

What is the future for the PRL? Rugby will never compete with Premiership football but will it ever become a 20 - 25, 000 sort of sport. Our plans for 18,000 would seem to indicate that is about the maximum target out there.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 11:23
Quote:
DanWiley
"Would require teams to throw games against a relegation contender - eg is there any scenario in which we would field a weakened team against Tigers?"
I'd really hope rugby is more mature than that. Cheating in order to apply summary justice to a team that have been caught cheating but (heavily) sanctioned for it I would find rather distasteful.

In my view its worse than that, its as bad as the original infraction, its cheating with a different hat on. I wouldn't want Bath to be any part of it. Shouldn't even be considered.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

SimonG19
SimonG19
02 December, 2019 13:03
Quote:
Optimist
'I have a feeling PRL will be sympathetic to them making an effort.'
I agree. It's hardly in PRL's interest to drive Wray out of the game, or to push Sarries under.

Whilst Wray continues to refuse to apologise for corrupting the Premiership for the last five seasons it should be very much in PRL's interest to do this.

Then we can have a clean competition for the first time in years.


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