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How Do You Solve A Problem Like Bath Rugby?
Discussion started by Jonny Fantastic (IP Logged), 01 December, 2019 16:20
Jonny Fantastic
Jonny Fantastic
01 December, 2019 16:20
After watching the game on Friday with another inept performance from us, it got me thinking, how do we solve a problem that is Bath Rugby?

For me, it's a mixture of things. For starters, it begins at the top. For far too long, a large element of club politics has resulted in a changeover of coaches resulting in a sense of instability at the club. Case in point being Tabs when he was here with Todd (based on the stories that I have heard and seen reported on here). And now Hoops is in the hotseat, albeit without a head coach which is the missing link for me in the coaching setup and he is having to shoulder the burden whilst being completely out of his depth. We really should be opting for a good coaching model, something along the lines of Glos where Ackermann is firmly in charge reporting to David Humphries.

Next, it's the attack. Watching the performance on Friday felt like broken record syndrome stuck on repeat to the point of being the proverbial ad nauseum. Running side-to-side with no line breaks, no strike runners, no gainline breaks and the net result being a mistake with a knock-on or dumb penalty. Yes, Roberts often operates on the crash ball but teams can read it so well because it's just so predictable. The wins against Exe and Saints merely papered over the cracks in that we have the attacking tenacity of a wet flannel in our backs! If you look at Sarries on Friday night, in the leadup to their try, every time a player took the ball on, they went forward. When we had possession, we never went forward, merely side to side or backwards. When we appointed Dempsey, I honestly hoped we would see some results, and I am yet to be convinced. Is it a failure on his part or are the backs simply not ingraining his coaching methods into their thick skulls?? Answers on a postcard please on that one.

And finally, it's that old chestnut, our 9/10/12 axis. A sense of predictability every time, with very slow service from 9 (whether it's Chudley, Cook or another) and the 10 taking the ball at a standing start with no pace whatsoever. Rhys is the biggest culprit for that, he very rarely makes yardage at all and just ships it on and hopes for the best. We have definitely lost that midfield creativity and spark since the days of the Stringer/Ford/Eastmond axis, which for me was the last best 9/10/12 combo we had. It's an embarrassment to the club that we had to get out our begging bowl for Rhys when we failed to get in a decent 10 at the end of last season and the net result of that is that we continue to churn out flat performances week after week when he plays. Freddie is a slightly more creative 10, but for me he is too much of a loose cannon making mistakes at crucial times (THAT Toulouse match a good example) and that's not we need. We need a solid 10 that has a creative spark, kicks his goals and plays the percentages in the right areas.

So my conclusion is this, we need a decent head coach to work with Hoops and sign some decent halfbacks and centres. That's my two pence worth.

Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub
01 December, 2019 17:25
So my conclusion is this, we need a decent head coach to work with Hoops and sign some decent halfbacks and centres. That's my two pence worth.[/quote]

JF I think the majority will agree with you, its just when and if it will happen - the sooner the better !

(Sm128)



Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
01 December, 2019 17:28
[quote Old Bath Tub]So my conclusion is this, we need a decent head coach to work with Hoops and sign some decent halfbacks and centres. That's my two pence worth.[/quote]

JF I think the majority will agree with you, its just when and if it will happen - the sooner the better !

(Sm128)[/quote]

I actually believe it won't happen as Hoops comes across as believing the current coaching setup is sufficient and actually doing a good job.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
01 December, 2019 17:31
Yes - nothing likely to happen until the close season. I like the energy & team spirit, the defence has been pretty good & we have seen some good things from the pack, so not all is wrong. The problem is, of course, the lack of penetration & terrible injury list yet again. Iím not sure how transformative a head coach would be in the short term.

DanWiley
DanWiley
01 December, 2019 17:32
You spend big to get in the best dor money can buy. You give him a big budget for whatever playing staff he wants. You give him the cap to spend on players. Given him reasonable expectations and review him against them, say, every 5 years.

Then you let him get on with it with minimal interference because, unless you are that dor (unlikely), you're only going muddy whatever vision he has.

fat lock
fat lock
01 December, 2019 20:15
Some honesty is needed.
BC seems to have a history of meddling and upsetting the coaches and players.
It's his train set and if he wants to be the fat controller - let him.
So, BC to be DOR
He recruits a head coach who is happy with that
That HC recruits he rest of the coaching staff
BC can develop the style of play with the players he wants.
That should end the uncertainty and unhappiness we've had. It solves the need for a patsy 'in name only ' need for a DOR that we currently have.

Ali1969
Ali1969
02 December, 2019 07:24
Personally I believe the coaches are excellent however I have been vocal about my feelings that Hoops as much as I like him and respect him is too inexperienced to be a DoR especially as a club like ours if you wish to believe the rumours of annual interference from non playjng parties.

The transfer team and policies coupled with the quality of our squad is a different matter, in my opinion we have repeatedly signed overhyped players on over inflated contracts which I believe our previous DoR publicly eluded to., so this is not hearsay.

We are weak outside our first choice 15 and we lack the steeliness and togetherness that our neighbours in Bristol are building. Saints as well are building under Chris Boyd and I cannot lie I am impressed with how Alan Solomons has instilled a real team ethic at Warriors, I look at us sometimes and especially our attack and bar a couple of individual bits of brilliance I wonder where our next backline try will come from.

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 09:04
'we have repeatedly signed overhyped players on over inflated contracts'

Who?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 09:04
Just pulling these last two posts together and using some content to promote my favourite topic the clubs mentioned above are Gloucester, Bristol, Sale, Northampton and Worcester as undergoing a resurgence. There is a common factor, might be a coincidence but the all have 9's that threaten from the base of the scrum.

Gloucester : Willie Heinz
Bristol: Randal
Sale: Faf de Klerk
Northampton: Cobus Reinach
Worcester: Francois Hougaard

Coincidence perhaps, oh and if you were going to say what about Sarries, well its Ben Spencer of course and Exeter well Nic White who they are hope to get as a replacement Rhys Webb....which is why we should do our best to secure him.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

P G Tips
P G Tips
02 December, 2019 09:05
Ballsout

Your post above has been hidden.

I refer you to the COML Atmosphere thread. Please read. Your post on this thread is an example of:

"repeating pet opinions ad nauseam, .....- to the annoyance of the majority."

Please stick to the point and make points that contribute.

Take a week out.

PG

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 09:27
Quote:
shipwrecked
...the clubs mentioned above are Gloucester, Bristol, Sale, Northampton and Worcester as undergoing a resurgence.

Gloucester : Willie Heinz - they've lost 5 of their last 6 games
Bristol: Randal - couldn't beat 14-man LI Ö just imagine what the BoB twins would have had to say about that!
Sale: Faf de Klerk - pretty inconsistent; 2 GP wins out of 5 with a much easier fixture list than we've had
Northampton: Cobus Reinach - we beat them
Worcester: Francois Hougaard - currently benefiting from not being in the Heineken and having very few RWC returnees

But also - yes, would sign pretty much any of those 9s in a flash.

gaz59
gaz59
02 December, 2019 10:21
It isn't just the threat from the base but also the zip put on the ball away from the breakdown. Care did this brilliantly for Quins yesterday with the likes of Smith, Lang and Dombrandt benefitting significantly

Chudleigh's delivery just looks so much slower and when you add in the pedestrian predictability passing from Rhys the wonder is we ever get over the gain line

ballsout
ballsout
02 December, 2019 10:29
Quote:
P G Tips
Ballsout
Your post above has been hidden.

I refer you to the COML Atmosphere thread. Please read. Your post on this thread is an example of:

"repeating pet opinions ad nauseam, .....- to the annoyance of the majority."

Please stick to the point and make points that contribute.

Take a week out.

PG

Eh? My thread was 100% "to the point", it contributed just as much as any of the above. Never thought this board would resort to censorship.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2019 10:30 by ballsout.

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 10:37
I still regard Priestland as more of a problem than Chudley. We've seen some first-rate work from Chudley this season.

Some of RP's line-kicking has been outstanding. It was noticeable against Sarries that he was used to clear the lines on several occasions when the more obvious option was for a kick from 9. Using 10 means he has to kick it at least 20 metres further than 9 might for a net gain, and Priestland achieved that pretty much every time.

However, when we beat Exeter with RP at 10, I said that the game/conditions/circumstances conspired to suit him, but that he would play continue to play exactly the same game even when the game/conditions/circumstances changed. That's been precisely the case. He frequently picks out the wrong runner; he doesn't require any defensive attention because he's too slow; and when we get in the red zone he doesn't demand the ball even when - as happened against Sarries - it was crying out to put Roko into a 1 v 1. See Cipriani putting Thorley away on Sunday for a similar scenario. Your 9 will often have his head buried in trying to dig the ball out of the ruck and organising the forwards. 10 has to act as the scanner and when he says it's on, then 9 has got to believe him.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 11:19
Wouldn't argue with any of that Opti the current issue would be who would you put at 10?
The scrum half issue has an 'oven ready' solution that would be available, I'm not sure who we want at 10 if Malins has injury issues.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 11:56
I'm pretty disappointed that they seem to be pushing TdG away from 10. He's a far better player than Hastings was at that age.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 12:00
Is that because Orlando Bailey is better suited to 10 with TDG at centre or 15, his performances seem to have been better away from 10 but its hard to tell from the screen, you need to see his positioning when the camera isn't on him.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

bardofavon
bardofavon
02 December, 2019 12:16
the only way to solve this problem is to persuade craig to sell up. he has done nothing with the club since buying it. he has had endless problems with his DOR and since ford snr was aacked for being out of control with the money (amongst other things) craig has pursued toothless appointees. blackadder- lovely guy but a totally ineffective performer. hooper. just a patsy. no chief coach? of course not. a deliberate move. craig now has what he has always wanted. total control.
we look at clubs who have turned their fortunes around so quickly, thanks to shrewd DOR and coaching appointments. boyd at saints, lam at bristol. these guys demand total control themselves which is why they are successful. that's why craig would never hire them, which is why saints have gone from bottom to top in 18 months but why we are marooned near the bottom, season after season.

TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo
02 December, 2019 12:31
Quote:
Optimist
I'm pretty disappointed that they seem to be pushing TdG away from 10. He's a far better player than Hastings was at that age.

I think they see him as a playmaking 12 rather in the Devoto mode but maybe better. I think I agree with this he appears to have a good rugby brain and an eye for space which you just canít coach into someone.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 12:32
Quote:
bardofavon
but why we are marooned near the bottom, season after season.

Would be nice to use some facts I suppose, try these past results for the Premiership, its not winning but its also clearly not as you state!

5th 2013/4
2nd 2014/5
9th 2015/6
5th 2016/7
6th 2017/8
6th 2018/9



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 12:49
Quote:
shipwrecked
Is that because Orlando Bailey is better suited to 10

Possibly - but I'd rather they developed both at 10 - who knows where either or both will be in 2-3 years time.

Quote:
shipwrecked
his performances seem to have been better away from 10

Possibly - but so what if he gives an imperfect performance in a United game.

He seems to have real gas. Why is it in England we have a phobia about fly-halfs with fast-twitch muscle fibre? Beauden Barrett would be a wing if he'd grown up here.

gaz59
gaz59
02 December, 2019 12:54
Quote:
Optimist
I still regard Priestland as more of a problem than Chudley. We've seen some first-rate work from Chudley this season.
Some of RP's line-kicking has been outstanding. It was noticeable against Sarries that he was used to clear the lines on several occasions when the more obvious option was for a kick from 9. Using 10 means he has to kick it at least 20 metres further than 9 might for a net gain, and Priestland achieved that pretty much every time.

However, when we beat Exeter with RP at 10, I said that the game/conditions/circumstances conspired to suit him, but that he would play continue to play exactly the same game even when the game/conditions/circumstances changed. That's been precisely the case. He frequently picks out the wrong runner; he doesn't require any defensive attention because he's too slow; and when we get in the red zone he doesn't demand the ball even when - as happened against Sarries - it was crying out to put Roko into a 1 v 1. See Cipriani putting Thorley away on Sunday for a similar scenario. Your 9 will often have his head buried in trying to dig the ball out of the ruck and organising the forwards. 10 has to act as the scanner and when he says it's on, then 9 has got to believe him.

Completely agree Opti though just one other thing to add. Sometimes the 10 can be too close to the action and a team really benefits from a Greenwoodesque 12 to call the play. Roberts, bless him will never bring that vision

That's not to let Rhys off the hook at all though

Maybe that is where TdG is being planned to develop? Personally, I would simply ask the lad, he will have a better idea than anyone else which shirt his heart wants him to pull on

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 13:18
Ď Personally, I would simply ask the lad, he will have a better idea than anyone elseí - thatís very wise comment. He may well prefer his rugby further out. Plenty do.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 13:38
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
shipwrecked
Is that because Orlando Bailey is better suited to 10

Possibly - but I'd rather they developed both at 10 - who knows where either or both will be in 2-3 years time.

Quote:
shipwrecked
his performances seem to have been better away from 10

Possibly - but so what if he gives an imperfect performance in a United game.

He seems to have real gas. Why is it in England we have a phobia about fly-halfs with fast-twitch muscle fibre? Beauden Barrett would be a wing if he'd grown up here.

Mmm for a 10 I'd rather prefer acceleration rather than pure gas, is that your interpretation of 'fast-twitch'? So on that basis we aren't seeking a 10 then we are using in house talent?



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 13:55
I assume acceleration and straight-line gas are both the product of fast-twitch muscle fibre. Being stronger in one or the other is probably down to what you specifically train for?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 December, 2019 14:16
Not sure about that Opti, don't think you can train for acceleration. Guess we have to wait for our 10 if TDG is being lined up for elsewhere.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 14:29
Surely you can. Google 'train for acceleration' and there's plenty of answers!

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
02 December, 2019 15:08
Quote:
Optimist
Surely you can. Google 'train for acceleration' and there's plenty of answers!

Not in the SW region at the moment! winking smiley



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

gaz59
gaz59
02 December, 2019 17:07
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
Optimist
Surely you can. Google 'train for acceleration' and there's plenty of answers!

Not in the SW region at the moment! winking smiley

Very sharp CC (Sm152)

jameswood14
Woodpecker
02 December, 2019 17:15
Dunno if this has already been posted elsewhere:

Freddie Burns is among the players who could be on the move at the end of the season.

The former Gloucester star has been playing full-back for Bath this season and, according to The Rugby Paper, he will seek assurances that he will play fly-half before signing a new contract.

gaz59
gaz59
02 December, 2019 17:26
Well here's one way to solve the immediate problem. Headline taken from offy and very surprised Bruce hasn't jumped at the opportunity

"Last chance to book Clermont hospitality"

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 December, 2019 17:30
Quote:
Woodpecker
Dunno if this has already been posted elsewhere:
Freddie Burns is among the players who could be on the move at the end of the season.

The former Gloucester star has been playing full-back for Bath this season and, according to The Rugby Paper, he will seek assurances that he will play fly-half before signing a new contract.

I would be amazed if that is the case. Freddie doesn't seem like the sort of guy to make a demand like that. Also, surely players should be happy to be anywhere (appropriate) on the field if they are picked, and I'm sure they are. More TRP nonsense is my guess.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
02 December, 2019 18:48
The Tigs board is suggesting Fred as a replacement for George should he leave. The Tigs fans don't seem noticeably upset about the prospect of the latter.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 December, 2019 19:05
Quote:
joethefanatic
The Tigs fans don't seem noticeably upset about the prospect of the latter.

They make this board of misery look positively chipper, so I'm not surprised.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

gaz59
gaz59
02 December, 2019 19:15
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
Woodpecker
Dunno if this has already been posted elsewhere:
Freddie Burns is among the players who could be on the move at the end of the season.

The former Gloucester star has been playing full-back for Bath this season and, according to The Rugby Paper, he will seek assurances that he will play fly-half before signing a new contract.

I would be amazed if that is the case. Freddie doesn't seem like the sort of guy to make a demand like that. Also, surely players should be happy to be anywhere (appropriate) on the field if they are picked, and I'm sure they are. More TRP nonsense is my guess.

Well though Freddie is playing at 15 he is unlikely to get above 3rd choice in that position whereas at 10 he would back himself to be starting on merit

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
02 December, 2019 19:37
Being available at 10 and 15 would get him on the pitch more though. I donít believe this story.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
02 December, 2019 20:49
How are Freddie's calf muscles these days?

opti
Optimist
02 December, 2019 22:44
Quote:
Woodpecker
Freddie Burns is among the players who could be on the move at the end of the season.

I canít imagine why he would stay. Our coaching team somehow rank him behind the weakest 10 in the GP. He was first choice at Tigers, he didnít want to leave, the crowd loved him. Unless something changes here pretty rapidly I would think heíd jump at the chance to move on.

DanWiley
DanWiley
03 December, 2019 09:47
I suspect there are two, equally likely, possibilities (perhaps a bit of both):

- A newspaper trying to generate column inches
- He is a bit unhappy here, I could believe that, and needs to find an excuse. "Oh, my time here hasn't been a car crash, I'm moving so I can play in my favoured position more." job done.

cb2
cb2
03 December, 2019 11:29
For every Farrell there is a Max Malins, Harry Mallender or Ryan Davis who doesn't make such a fast jump from junior star to Premiership star. Getting the best from talent like TDG and Orlando will help us down the line. However, is that a strength of Bath in recent years? We seem OK at bringing on young back 3 players (mainly recruited from Irish) but we aren't great at developing half backs and centres.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 December, 2019 11:49
Quote:
cb2
For every Farrell there is a Max Malins, Harry Mallender or Ryan Davis who doesn't make such a fast jump from junior star to Premiership star. Getting the best from talent like TDG and Orlando will help us down the line. However, is that a strength of Bath in recent years? We seem OK at bringing on young back 3 players (mainly recruited from Irish) but we aren't great at developing half backs and centres.

True enough for recent years I'm not sure that is fair any more*. Alongside Max O, TDG, GHW this year, the AASE seems to now be bringing through guys at most positions but the next crop are still a year or so out (like Bailey) - you will be able to watch them tomorrow.

[* although home grown 9s have certainly been a long term weakness.]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

P G Tips
P G Tips
03 December, 2019 14:05
CB2

Fair point- but maybe that is why we should work on it from now?
As Matt points out, the future is starting to look brighter.

PG

MESSAGES->author
hemington
03 December, 2019 14:49
Out of interest who are our two players exempt from the Sarrycap. Faletau and Flo? If so are they still worth it? If not it would open a couple of big spaces.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 December, 2019 14:54
Flo will be retiring anyway, so it will be open next season unless there is someone else who qualifies (I canít think of any).

TF could also be rolled into the cap if they wanted to sign someone else who qualified and was more expensive.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
hasta
03 December, 2019 14:57
Faletau still has 2.5 years left on his contract I think. Flo was a one year extension? Watson extended last year, didn't he? I expect he's probably second highest paid at the club.

Old Bath Tub
Old Bath Tub
03 December, 2019 15:06
Quote:
joethefanatic
The Tigs board is suggesting Fred as a replacement for George should he leave. The Tigs fans don't seem noticeably upset about the prospect of the latter.

Perhaps we could do a swop ! (Sm100)



Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies

"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 December, 2019 15:32
Quote:
hasta
Faletau still has 2.5 years left on his contract I think. Flo was a one year extension? Watson extended last year, didn't he? I expect he's probably second highest paid at the club.

Can Watson be a marquee?



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

opti
Optimist
03 December, 2019 15:35
Quote:
Old Bath Tub
Quote:
joethefanatic
The Tigs board is suggesting Fred as a replacement for George should he leave. The Tigs fans don't seem noticeably upset about the prospect of the latter.

Perhaps we could do a swop ! (Sm100)

Webb + Ford + a reasonable bill of health across the squad and we would genuinely be in business.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
03 December, 2019 15:43
Watson has been with us for ages so can be a marquee.

I'd take Ford back in a heartbeat. If Tigers fans are criticising him when he was literally the only good thing about their play last season and single-handedly saved them from relegation, they're idiots.

Webb too, pls.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
03 December, 2019 15:59
Quote:
Old Bath Tub
Quote:
joethefanatic
The Tigs board is suggesting Fred as a replacement for George should he leave. The Tigs fans don't seem noticeably upset about the prospect of the latter.

Perhaps we could do a swop ! (Sm100)

If only..... although I think Ford would rather stick pins in his eyes than play for Bath again. Can see him going to Bristol though

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
03 December, 2019 16:01
They will certainly have a few quid available for a 10 when Madigan leaves at the end of the year.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
06 December, 2019 07:58
Hard to argue with this POV:

[www.theguardian.com]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 December, 2019 08:32
That's a great piece Matt. good find. the line "Unless Irish or Worcester collapse a giant will go down." puts it all into focus. If that became a prospect you do wonder how Premiership rugby would react.



https://i.ibb.co/Fz0bC3q/Unknown-1.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

nigewing
nigewing
06 December, 2019 08:50
That article is spot on, and if a so called giant is relegated because they under perform & finish bottom then so be it. If it is Bath so what. It happened to Quins & Saints and they both came back stronger.
In any business if management is weak then the team are prevented from performing. A good management team (set of coaches for the playing side of professional sport) get more than the sum of their teamís collective parts in performance. And the reverse is true too. At Tigers & The Rec it is clear to all what needs to be fixed but the club owners either cannot see it or for some strange reason choose not to act on it.
Once relegated then I predict radical changes to that club.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
06 December, 2019 09:13
Quote:
BathMatt53
Hard to argue with this POV:
[www.theguardian.com]

Article is spot on, perhaps you could forward it to BC to get him to act before the end of the year?

fat lock
fat lock
06 December, 2019 09:32
It's so clear to all that a reset button needs to be pressed and soon.
What concerns me is we're not quite bad enough to get relegated, - which I'm starting to believe is what the club needs.
To be honest the thought of a future watching the dross currently being served up is more depressing than the thought of relegation.
Mind you the lunatics running the club probably wouldn't even see that as a reason for change - 'we had a great year's training, the coaches and players are invested in what we're doing - we just didn't get the small margins in crucial games'.

The Bath way - boring the opposition and fans to death.

gaz59
gaz59
06 December, 2019 10:36
Tiggers 3 - 1 favourites for the drop

I would be seriously worried if those were odds for us

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
06 December, 2019 10:40
That Guardian article only reinforces what most logical rugby fans know as being an important building block for success.

We have a sprinkling of top class players, some very talented youngsters, and a few solid journeymen but are not able to weld them into the playing unit their skills and experience should/could amount to. Plus, I am told, we have some of the very best training facilities known to man and an iconic stadium, ok with a wet pitch.

We need better direction than we have.



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The Jink Joseph.

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jameswood14
Woodpecker
06 December, 2019 11:10
Good article.

This is just my opinion, with no insider knowledge except what I have read here, but Bruce Craig is Bath's DOR.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 December, 2019 11:10
Quote:
Bathovalballer
That Guardian article only reinforces what most logical rugby fans know as being an important building block for success.
We have a sprinkling of top class players, some very talented youngsters, and a few solid journeymen but are not able to weld them into the playing unit their skills and experience should/could amount to. Plus, I am told, we have some of the very best training facilities known to man and an iconic stadium, ok with a wet pitch.

We need better direction than we have.

Have you read the article? If you have read the article do you understand what it says?

The points being made are not about the quality of coaching but the style.

Boyd is successful because he has ditched automated rugby, Kidney is finding success by changing tactics mid game and keeping the ball in hand. Tigers are not successful currently because they seek contact rather than space.
Bath also play by numbers but are hampered by a pitch that doesn't allow running rugby.

Its an opinion about the premiership, we all want to see attractive rugby, however, if its success we want it might actually be wrong, after all the World Cup wasn't won by a team that avoided contact but actually sought it.

Please try not to assume all articles support your view of Bath rugby club.



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Banachek
Banachek
06 December, 2019 11:40
BoB wrote-
"I am told, we have some of the very best training facilities known to man and an iconic stadium, ok with a wet pitch.
We need better direction than we have."

Unfortunately having top quality training facilities does not mean you automatically get top quality performance on the pitch.. if only it did
Having been to FH and inside and around a couple of times and watched senior and academy training (admittedly not recently), yes a fantastic facility for the players. Is it a spa..no, didn't get the feeling or see any indication of that. Just a top quality facility for rugby training in stunning surroundings.
My concern with the facilities is the pitch.
I love the REC but due to the weather over the last couple of months , it really is not at a standard at the moment that you can play much more than forward dominated game (IMO) so we get endless forward rumbles and no penetration, needs a couple of weeks of no rain ! Its one of the reasons we can't get our outside backs into play, along with pedestrian ball from 9/10 of course !
Maybe its rose tinted googles but I long for the days when KF was in his prime arriving at the ruck and giving immediate bullet passes..

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 December, 2019 11:51
Quote:
Banachek
BoB wrote-
"I am told, we have some of the very best training facilities known to man and an iconic stadium, ok with a wet pitch.
We need better direction than we have."

Unfortunately having top quality training facilities does not mean you automatically get top quality performance on the pitch.. if only it did
Having been to FH and inside and around a couple of times and watched senior and academy training (admittedly not recently), yes a fantastic facility for the players. Is it a spa..no, didn't get the feeling or see any indication of that. Just a top quality facility for rugby training in stunning surroundings.
My concern with the facilities is the pitch.
I love the REC but due to the weather over the last couple of months , it really is not at a standard at the moment that you can play much more than forward dominated game (IMO) so we get endless forward rumbles and no penetration, needs a couple of weeks of no rain ! Its one of the reasons we can't get our outside backs into play, along with pedestrian ball from 9/10 of course !
Maybe its rose tinted googles but I long for the days when KF was in his prime arriving at the ruck and giving immediate bullet passes..

+1



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

jameswood14
Woodpecker
06 December, 2019 11:56
The wet pitch issue has in recent years been dismissed as a thing of the past, looks like given the wet weather its still a problem. How hard/expensive is it to fix that?

DanWiley
DanWiley
06 December, 2019 12:12
Surely the wet pitch has been around quite a long time? It shouldn't have come as a surprise to our coaches?

jameswood14
Woodpecker
06 December, 2019 12:22
Quote:
DanWiley
Surely the wet pitch has been around quite a long time? It shouldn't have come as a surprise to our coaches?

Possibly, but they could hardly be expected to know it would rain in autumn.

Ali1969
Ali1969
06 December, 2019 12:57
I do not get why people are now shocked in relation to the playing surface at the Rec - anyone from the area who has played junior rugby will tell you the Rec always has been a shocking surface...One of the best playing surfaces always used to be Albert Field home of Walcot Old Boys RFC - Lansdown has perfect drainage which is paramount to a good playing surface, we are not going to get this with a playing surface so close to a large water source.

Whilst I accept the playing surface is an issue, historically we have struggled through the boggy winter months especially AWAY from home on really good playing surfaces such as FG, Welford Rd, Allianz Park, Kingston Park etc and recovered during the dry periods...This kind of flies in the face of the complaints of a boggy home pitch affecting our performance..

Let us not forget it is the same for Both sides...It does not explain when the opposition play well and throw the ball around to great success.

gaz59
gaz59
06 December, 2019 13:59
Having played up there on the Albert Field many times, Ali, in the depths of January I would gladly of swapped the firm, dry pitch for the warm swamp of the Rec

opti
Optimist
06 December, 2019 14:17
Completely agree that 'the right (coaching) appointment provides a better return than any marquee player', and that is very probably the entire explanation of our current mediocrity.

Can't agree with those getting exercised about the state of the pitch. It may not be perfect. But the really sub-standard patches are basically in the dead-ball area - which hardly excuses the ineptitude of our handling in the middle of the park. In fact, if the state of the Rec makes handling difficult, then logic would suggest that when we play on an immaculate surface players would pretty much never drop a ball. The balls are incredibly grippy; players have access to the glue-spray; there are several balls rotating in any one match constantly being dried. Any disadvantage to the ball-carrier in terms of making it slightly more difficult to switch direction or run at full speed applies equally to the defender. I don't buy it as either an excuse or even an explanation of the way we play our rugby.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 December, 2019 15:13
Not really sure that the pitch is being blamed actually, it came up as a partial sentence in the article, I'm not expecting backs improvement quite yet, but I'd hope Hatley has started to make a difference up front.
Once the pack start delivering a bit of consistent go forward ball the backs have got no excuse, unless we kick every bit of possession away from 9 and 10.

The frequency of box kicking from 9 at Toulon is considerably less, I wonder if there is a chance we could sign their scrum half?



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

warrenball
warrenball
06 December, 2019 15:39
There really is no surprise here, Hooper set out quite clearly to go for a forward dominated game. Although it is the complete antithesis of the way I like to see rugby played, it can produce results if you don't mind being bored to death, but to play that style and still get beaten leaves you with no where else to go and we will quickly see supporter numbers dwindling at the Rec

TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo
06 December, 2019 15:54
Quote:
warrenball
There really is no surprise here, Hooper set out quite clearly to go for a forward dominated game. Although it is the complete antithesis of the way I like to see rugby played, it can produce results if you don't mind being bored to death, but to play that style and still get beaten leaves you with no where else to go and we will quickly see supporter numbers dwindling at the Rec
This approach made sense when the World Cup to most of our good backs early season and also the failure to land Pollard. I was hoping that we would see a more adventurous style post World Cup but the weather and injuries have got in the way. In addition we have had to play Exeter Sarries Northampton and Ulster all of which would be classed as tough opposition to have won 2 and come very close against Ulster shows the approach wasnít entirely without merit. I just hope we will improve if the weather does.

gaz59
gaz59
06 December, 2019 16:18
I don't think Hooper has ever said the Bath way is bore people to death with a stick it up the jumper game plan

I read it as needing to get on top in the front 5 to be able to get the class backs we have some decent ball

Small matter of sorting out the middle men in that work process though

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
06 December, 2019 17:18
Quote:
gaz59
I don't think Hooper has ever said the Bath way is bore people to death with a stick it up the jumper game plan
I read it as needing to get on top in the front 5 to be able to get the class backs we have some decent ball

Small matter of sorting out the middle men in that work process though

Yes Gaz, that's my impression as well.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

fat lock
fat lock
07 December, 2019 08:01
Sadly Stuart may say or 'not say' something, but what you see as a consequence of his actions are quite different.
Again that could be a carefully planned deflecting process, or it could be incompetence.

annie blackthorn
annie blackthorn
07 December, 2019 15:48
I came on this thread to hopefully gain some constructive criticism of last night's game, when despite my pre-set acceptance that Bath would be beaten by one of the best teams in Europe.

And all there is to be read is the same old same old.

Bath were not that bad last night, and compared to other games I've watched on the telly, did surprisingly well during the fit half.

p.s. having yet another 'go' at the owner is a pointless exercise, as he is not listening. He is I suspect far more focussed on getting the stadium built.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 December, 2019 16:38
Quote:
annie blackthorn
Bath were not that bad last night, and compared to other games I've watched on the telly, did surprisingly well during the fit half.

p.s. having yet another 'go' at the owner is a pointless exercise, as he is not listening. He is I suspect far more focussed on getting the stadium built.

I did say this a while ago but the consensus was that I was mistaken but I don't think there is room for reconstructing the playing team whilst the stadium is still under planning construction.

Even if it is true that Tarquin does antagonise the playing staff there is no way in a million years he will be moved aside as he is clearly key to the new stadium. I agree Annie.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
07 December, 2019 16:41
Tarquin isnít the owner to be fair. Coochiecoo and others made it very clear from their Farleigh meeting that the teams were separate. Turley will be sorting the planning and consultation issues - why would Bruce buy a (Very competent) dog and bark himself?



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Gibbodude
Gibbodude
07 December, 2019 17:44
I couldnít agree more. BC is the fundamental problem!

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
07 December, 2019 20:18
Hoops as DOR is in charge of the Rugby Department. He accepted the challenge and now has to put in the missing building blocks to make a success of the department. I am sure he is perfectly capable of seeing what is required to ensure the department performs whether it is on extra help or replacing existing personnel both in playing staff as well as coaching. He is also well aware of the criticisms from the fans.

Bruce I am sure is concerned with any department which is underperforming and will support that department of the club within the parameters of the rules.



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https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

DanWiley
DanWiley
07 December, 2019 23:03
Why do people make a link between the stadium and the rugby we play? I don't get it.

The rugby side is given, let's assume, the salary cap to spend on players. After that they could be playing on the local park in front of one man and his dog, the difference should be minimal.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
07 December, 2019 23:38
Quote:
DanWiley
Why do people make a link between the stadium and the rugby we play? I don't get it.
The rugby side is given, let's assume, the salary cap to spend on players. After that they could be playing on the local park in front of one man and his dog, the difference should be minimal.

By people, I guess you mean me.

Couple of reasons, as a company we had to build a small, tiny really, warehouse. It was complicated as it was partially in a residential. Not a difficult build but it completely dominated everything for 18 months, we existed on the work we had up to planning and it took us 2 months to get back on track afterwards.

Secondly the familiar routines get disrupted, its just unrealistic to suggest everything just carries on. You can say that there are specific people running the project but its the overwhelming topic of conversation. Its like moving house, having kids, dealing with illness however, much you think you can carry on regardless it affects you.



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Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

warrenball
warrenball
08 December, 2019 13:53
Maybe we have it the wrong way round, get the team playing and near the top of the league and you may have a need for a bigger stadium, keep playing the way we are and we will have trouble filling the current one.


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