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warrenball
warrenball
04 January, 2020 20:53
The result was not unexpected but the worst aspect is the tactic of always playing it so safe, in all honesty it was not much of a game to watch and Bath contributed little to the entertainment factor. No doubt the coaches would point out things could have been different if the Joseph try had not been ruled out by a silly penalty for a late tackle, but we will not stop the top teams scoring 20/25 points no matter how well we defend and unless we can start scoring tries we will lose more than we win.

Where do we go now, a couple of dead weeks to give the coaches time to consider, I don't think Hooper will change anything because defence seems to be where he feels most comfortable and in control, but relegation is most unlikely and I would like to see him take off the shackles a bit and try and score a few more tries.

Tigers will be an interesting match especially as they seem to be finding their feet at last, let us hope for the spectators sake it is not turned into a drab arm wrestle.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
04 January, 2020 23:48
First half too many missed chances.
Second half too many missed tackles.

Our decision making inside the Glaws 5m line was woeful. Just keep on picking and going. Scrum excellent, line out not. First 60 minutes very good but if we're going to fall off a cliff in the last 20 then we need to be a long way ahead by then.

Roko simply brilliant, Taulupe very good and Will Stuart rapidly becoming player of the season.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2020 01:35 by joethefanatic.

rainbow
rainbow
05 January, 2020 08:52
An earlier comment that Bath were in control and cruising at half time sums it up. Pleased to see what i considered to be a very strong team at Kingsholm unfortunately the strong team proved to be Gloucester. Half time pep talk must have been something like steady as you go lads in the other shed it was along the lines of get your rear ends into gear otherwise you'll be booed of at full time and they did. It was almost as though Bath went into shock an awful second half. Chilcott was on TV Friday night he would never have allowed Gloucester back into that game never. Congratulations to Gloucester a humiliation for Bath Rugby and their travelling supporters.

westglos
westglos
05 January, 2020 09:15
We were without 11 injured players, of whom 8 would have been in yesterday's squad. But we played like a team, not a group of talented individuals. Johan Ackerman fosters a real team unity, a "band of brothers" approach, as he did with the Lions in South Africa, with excellent man management skills. I have to pose the question - Is Hooper capable of that?

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
05 January, 2020 09:31
Quote:
westglos
We were without 11 injured players, of whom 8 would have been in yesterday's squad. But we played like a team, not a group of talented individuals. Johan Ackerman fosters a real team unity, a "band of brothers" approach, as he did with the Lions in South Africa, with excellent man management skills. I have to pose the question - Is Hooper capable of that?

From what I hear, Hooper isn’t. In fact far from it.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
05 January, 2020 09:53
Westglos you have probably hit the nail on the head. I know you were not at full strength, unlike us. Hooper should know every player inside out and how to motivate them/ get the best out of them as he has been at Bath long enough. Trouble is he never consistently did as a captain on the field and seemingly cannot off it.

Mind you I enjoyed the attacking rugby I saw in the second half by a side who both were motivated, powerful and skillful enough to play well and take advantage of woeful dicesion and skill levels and awful tackling opposite them. How many players did young Polledri beat on his own?

Questions must be raised about Cook and Walker at his level. Where is Batty and how long before Max Green returns and why not play young Fox? He might improve with game time and has a far better pass than Cook.

As said, if it wasn't for Louw, Stuart and Dunn again, we could/should have lost by many more. And this a game which being a local Derby is so important to us. Laughable. Obviously not motivational enough for this Bath set up.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

John Tee
John Tee
05 January, 2020 12:45
Bath's problems arent the team they put out on paper.
The backs you have should be able to drag you out of relegation...no question, as it is good international quality.
If you had Cipriani they'd be scoring tries which would take the pressure off everything else.

I think you also had enough quality across the pitch to keep you in games but something fundimental is wrong.

Your pack looks big enough and your back row must be as good as anyones. The 'cheapest' fix must be at coaching level...??

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 January, 2020 14:29
- Van Rensberg
- McCloskey
- Aki
- Atkinson
- Henshaw
- Barritt
- Devoto

I’m afraid that the days of a one trick bish bash no. 12 have been gone for a while and it is crippling the team IMO. As the first half demonstrates we can win all the possession in the world but rubbish (slow and obvious) ball to the stellar outside backs simply gives them nothing to work with. I don’t feel good saying it as JR seems like a lovely bloke but i just don’t think that the head-down-run-into-people-with-ball-up-jersey approach does anything in 2020 but slow it down or get you turned over.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
05 January, 2020 14:55
Agree, especially as the party piece is nowhere near as frequent these days. 10 years of that game might be taking its toll and the 12 is now a multi skiiled playermaker who should be able to run, pass or kick.
It is too easy to hunt down a 10 unless they move around and disguise a lot.
The 10 doesnt need to be that great if you have two tuilagi types in the centres, but they also then need to be able to bring the back 3 into play. Those players dont grow on trees and i quite like good first reciever at 12 anyway....it just fixes defences and makes them have to be more honest because they don't know where the point of attack starts...or rather cant police it so easily...
It is no accident that Glaws get more dangerous as the players get tired...
But Bath must get more from their squad of players...it is puzzling why they dont.
Have you tried Burns and Preistland at 10 and 12... because you meed to get Roko and Watson on the ball via JJ.
Bring JC and RD into play and you have a backline to die for...?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 January, 2020 14:57
Just posted it on the other thread...Anton LB is out of contract at end of the year and is an OK 12!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

ilovebathtime
ilovebathtime
05 January, 2020 15:04
Bathmatt53 you are absolutely right. It doesn't work anymore. I have always preferred a playmaker at 12 like catt or barkley anyway, but I think now the alternative option has to have pace and an offloading game, otherwise it is so easy to defend. To be honest you could probably swap Roberts with a flanker and you wouldn't see a difference.

In my opinion we regressed when we lost Eastmond , and then again when we replaced Tapuai with Roberts. With each change our backline has become more toothless

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 January, 2020 15:22
Quote:
ilovebathtime
Bathmatt53 you are absolutely right. It doesn't work anymore. I have always preferred a playmaker at 12 like catt or barkley anyway, but I think now the alternative option has to have pace and an offloading game, otherwise it is so easy to defend. To be honest you could probably swap Roberts with a flanker and you wouldn't see a difference.
In my opinion we regressed when we lost Eastmond , and then again when we replaced Tapuai with Roberts. With each change our backline has become more toothless

Zach M at 12 it is...would be fascinating to see how he would get on there in an A league game or something.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
05 January, 2020 16:41
I think Roberts is seen as a ball carrier in the absence of a big 8. It can still work but the timing of the pass from 9 and 10 is crucial and we don't have that right yet in my opinion.

Yesterday we saw glimpses of it in the 1st half but lost our shape in the 2nd half with the forwards tiring and possession becoming scrappy.

I don't think Glos were any better at setting up attacks but they delivered points off our mistakes very well and our tackling was terrible late on.

In summary our backline distribution isn't great but it is improving slightly and Roberts experience can help get that right. Eastmond was very clever for us at times but not off slow ball with zero space.

My feeling yesterday was that each of our coaches probably prepared their own element of our game well. It needs someone to glue each part together so that it becomes more instinctive and works even when under pressure and with tired bodies.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 January, 2020 16:49
It’s moot anyway BB given that JR and JW will presumably be off at the end of the season. Just depends on what type of 12 Bath sign to replace them (basher, playmaker or both).



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

John Tee
John Tee
05 January, 2020 17:01
Get your money out and build your backs around Lozowski

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
05 January, 2020 17:06
A point I am making is you need a ball carrier or 2 in any team and if we don't want to break Faletau on that thankless task then having JR is not a bad thing.

Who ever leaves and arrives, the balance across the team needs to be right and the timing of passes from 9 and 10 accurate.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
05 January, 2020 17:13
Quote:
B4thB4ck
A point I am making is you need a ball carrier or 2 in any team and if we don't want to break Faletau on that thankless task then having JR is not a bad thing.
Who ever leaves and arrives, the balance across the team needs to be right and the timing of passes from 9 and 10 accurate.

Agreed. Obano seems to be carrying quite a bit up the middle tbf, as are Stooke, Stuart and McNally - with Underhill and Flouw further out.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
05 January, 2020 17:27
Of the list of 12s given, I'm not sure I would describe either Barritt or Van Rensberg as gifted distributing 12s! The problem is speed of delivery and, sad to say, that starts at 9. The production of ball from the rucks is very good but when it is laid at his feet, Cooky looks up to see where his pass is. That takes 2 seconds and that's 2 seconds too long. The oppo defence has had time for a cup of tea and a biscuit by then.

That said, we would be greatly improved by a distributing 12. Loz or Devoto would do nicely but Freds line defence isn't good enough for him to play there. How about shifting JJ in one? His outside break seems to be a thing of the past these days but his defence is good and his ground kicking and his passing are excellent. He's wasted where he is.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
05 January, 2020 17:54
Quote:
westglos
We were without 11 injured players, of whom 8 would have been in yesterday's squad. But we played like a team, not a group of talented individuals. Johan Ackerman fosters a real team unity, a "band of brothers" approach, as he did with the Lions in South Africa, with excellent man management skills. I have to pose the question - Is Hooper capable of that?

I don’t think that is the case at all. All you have done is allow the two usual suspects to get back on their hobby horse. You have had some poor results under your wonderful head coach. We have had good wins against Exeter, Northampton, LI & Sale under ours. Suddenly we lose a game which seemed to be down to a spate of error & poor execution & the usual scape-goat is trotted out as the reason. Utter tosh.

John Tee
John Tee
05 January, 2020 18:42
But putting 80 mins together is a tough ask.
If Bath had continued with their first 30 mins form you'd have been in with a chance to win...and most probably would have achieved that.
Had Glaws done the same as per the second half they'll stand to hammer a very good team.

westglos
westglos
05 January, 2020 19:41
Bath Hammer - My hypothesis was reinforced by a conversation at the ground with a former Bath & England player I know. He cited Hooper as being a significant factor in performances that he thought were disappointing from a squad of good quality.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
05 January, 2020 20:02
Quote:
westglos
Bath Hammer - My hypothesis was reinforced by a conversation at the ground with a former Bath & England player I know. He cited Hooper as being a significant factor in performances that he thought were disappointing from a squad of good quality.

A couple of observations. Hooper is a rookie DoR so he's learning on the job. Hooper is also a rookie (and unplanned) Head Coach so he's learning that on the job, as well. He has experienced departmental coaches under him and their plans seem to be going fine (altho the jury is out on Dempsey atm). So, as alluded to above, its the stitching together that needs work... and Hoops is learning on the job.

IMHO its is likely that Bath foresaw that this would happen and decided that, in the service of the longer term vision, it was a price worth paying. We've won 4 games this season already, which is 4 more than the doomsayers were willing to grant before the season started. We are starting to see a very good forwards unit emerging and, if we play 10 man rugby, we are *very* effective. We have stellar outside backs. Our problem is that in trying to get the ball to them, we make mistakes and the opposition capitalise. I'd much rather we hone our forward game this season and win ugly, recognising that we do not currently have the personnel or game plans to play an 80 minute all court game.

We are not going to be top 4, we might get top 6 (although I think it would be better for us if we don't - Big Vase is about our level at the moment), we are (probably) not going to get relegated. So, experimentation is the order to the day.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2020 20:10 by joethefanatic.

Bath Hammer
Bath Hammer
05 January, 2020 20:15
Quote:
westglos
Bath Hammer - My hypothesis was reinforced by a conversation at the ground with a former Bath & England player I know. He cited Hooper as being a significant factor in performances that he thought were disappointing from a squad of good quality.

That may be so but there have been quite a few experienced individuals in the game who have a high opinion of Hooper but has been said it is a steep learning curve. It’s not as if our performances last year under an experienced coach were much to write home about.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
05 January, 2020 20:45
Quote:
westglos
Bath Hammer - My hypothesis was reinforced by a conversation at the ground with a former Bath & England player I know. He cited Hooper as being a significant factor in performances that he thought were disappointing from a squad of good quality.

Things you never hear said.

# 1865:-

'The team was much worse years ago when I was in it'.

bathstigg
bathstigg
05 January, 2020 20:51
How long do we have to wait to get some success? Ive been watching since 2007 the last time we won the minor European Trophy and since then we've come close once in 2015. As we are not constrained for coaching personnel by the cap surely an owner worth over £300 million could secure the best rather than a novice coach to do both DOR and Head coach roles.

Ali1969
Ali1969
06 January, 2020 10:13
Some very valid points made - having travelled up to Kingsholm and watched the game there were elements which demonstrate clearly that we have Improved in certain areas although the way we just capitulated in the last quarter was concerning as was the speed at which the management team appeared to act in relation to replacing clearly flagging players is a worry.

There are elements however which still really concern me - 1. Our inability to create and take try scoring opportunities despite dominating opposition. 2. Our ability to capitulate under pressure, I mentioned it before, that we have a propensity to concede a score and almost immediately concede again and again in quick succession and the game is gone....Finally 3. Our back play is neigh on non-existent - my concern is with our so called stellar back line and subsequently their international aspiration...Ask yourself the simple question if you were in their boots - how long are you going to put up with stagnant, slow ball/rugby which in turn is stifling your natural game and clearly not enhancing your career....Again why spend the majority of our salary cap on this Stellar backline if we choose or are unable to use it???? The service on Saturday appeared so slow at times that Gloucester had to slow down or they would have overshot our backline.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
06 January, 2020 11:36
I have often said I like Cookie and his wanting to get stuck in but on Saturday his service to RP was very poor and slow, as was his arrival at rucks and mauls. To me, he hasn't got it anymore and definitely has not improved in the last two seasons. IMV we have to get him replaced and in the meantime try out Fox and Green as and when he is fit again, with Chudders starting.

I agree with Ali, that watching the game our back play was very ponderous and predictable, and easily snuffed out by a good Glos defence. After all the hard work by the forwards winning the ball, it is galling our back play is so slow and clueless on ideas. At least with a faster delivery we would give our talented backs the chance to do or try something.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

sid the seagull
sid the seagull
06 January, 2020 12:41
Ali we had two ‘should have been’ nailed on opportunities in the first half.
First a TF offload to JR with the line begging, unfortunately it was difficult and reached JR at shin ht.
Second a great break by TF with a three on one overlap unfortunately he went inside to traffic and was tackled with a man outside and again the line begging.
However this was only his second match back after a very long time out. His class got him in those positions, in a couple of games those chances will have been taken.
The game would have unfolded very differently if we had been 15 pts up at HT.
Good signs for me.

FLAP

MESSAGES->author
hemington
06 January, 2020 12:42
Yep it is a real shame that our backs can't fire but we were away and i believe I saw that Glos have the best defence (tries conceded) in the league. Would like to see our backs (on a dry pitch i.e. not the Boggy Wreck) against some other teams.

warrenball
warrenball
06 January, 2020 13:02
Sid, you can always find examples when tries could or should have been scored, but they were not and that is all that counts. Unfortunately we all know the shortcomings in our game and our problems at 9, 10 & 12, these have been discussed and dissected since last season. It appears the club either can't afford, can't attract or think we don't need new players in those positions so we are stuck with this rather dull offering. Certainly we will win our share of matches to probably finish higher than half way up the table but is there another less exciting team to watch in the league?

opti
Optimist
06 January, 2020 13:05
Quote:
sid the seagull
Ali we had two ‘should have been’ nailed on opportunities in the first half.
First a TF offload to JR ...Second a great break by TF with a three on one overlap unfortunately he went inside to traffic and was tackled with a man outside and again the line begging.
However this was only his second match back after a very long time out. His class got him in those positions, in a couple of games those chances will have been taken.
The game would have unfolded very differently if we had been 15 pts up at HT.
Good signs for me.

It was Ant who with the second chance who went back inside, when the pass to Flouw on the outside was the better option. However - I'm not sure there is a team in the league that could have failed to score from the overall position that the breakout had created. It was almost easier to score than to not score - but of course the forwards went into 'Exeter' mode, where they seem to have been instructed to make their way to the tryline 6 inches at a time, rather than giving - say Joseph, Watson or Roko - a tilt at a one on one. Our mindset in the 5-metre zone is absolutely pathetic. A Ford, Smith, Cipriani - or virtually any 10 with a modicum of belief and authority - just wouldn't allow such heads-down rugby.

opti
Optimist
06 January, 2020 13:10
....on the other hand, just noticed that our U18s beat Exeter away - which means we've beaten the sainted academies of Sarries and Exe in successive games, and that another de Glanville was on the teamsheet. Practically every Prem side seems to have brothers and/or sons of 80s stars in their side these days, so maybe that's another trend we're late cottoning on to!

opti
Optimist
06 January, 2020 18:46
Nice piece on BT Sport with Burns and Banahan watching and discussing last year’s 31-31 draw.

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