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6N squads
Discussion started by BathMatt53 (IP Logged), 08 January, 2020 15:32
BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 January, 2020 15:32
Loving the approach by France (although surprised Raka isn't in)

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Nineteen uncapped players are in the 42-man group, including fly-half Louis Carbonel and flanker Cameron Woki.

I wonder if Eddie will have a similar view and give a few new lads a good run at the next RWC?

I think that both Currys will be in the training squad, as well as Jack Willis. Will Stuart (with Cole omitted) should go but I'm nervous that Bath could actually lose all 3 (i.e. Obano and Dunn as well) to the training squad...

As ever, the interesting selections will be at 9, 10. I would hope that Grayson gets invited as an apprentice or whatever Eddie calls them.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

warrenball
warrenball
08 January, 2020 16:40
I think England are in a different situation to France as we have a relatively young team who are playing good rugby. I also think that after the shock of losing to the Springboks it is important for them to have a good 6 Nations and carry on the good run leading up to the WC final. That is not to say EJ should not bring in fresh new blood into the squad or even the team, players like Daly are looking a bit jaded and it would give experience to some younger players as this 6 Nations is the perfect opportunity with so many of the teams in a state of flux.

Only problem is that a number of the players who could reasonably be given a rest play for Saracens and that could be an unpopular thing to do from the point of view of the other clubs.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 January, 2020 17:28
Haha, that would be funny if the Sarries players were rested for the 6N and so they didn’t get the England credits!



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
08 January, 2020 17:30
Quote:
BathMatt53
Haha, that would be funny if the Sarries players were rested for the 6N and so they didn’t get the England credits!

Sarries players aren't motivated by money, everyone knows that.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 January, 2020 17:37
It’s not the match fees for the players, it’s the £5k per match (up to £80k per player) that Saracens themselves would miss out on. That was what put Wasps over when Hughes missed out - only multiply it by all the Sarries players.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
08 January, 2020 18:17
So clubs factor in (assume) that players will be selected for England whilst planning their squads pre season? That seems a huge risk to take unless there is an accepted get out clause for getting it wrong.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
08 January, 2020 18:23
It seems like they do BB. Wasps lost Tommy Taylor and Hughes credits according to the reports at the time. It can be a huge amount of money if you have lots of internationals so I guess you have to take some sort of risk in some cases (eg assume that Itoje and Farrell will definitely be in if not injured). Seems a risk with fringe players like Tommy Taylor though.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

opti
Optimist
08 January, 2020 19:11
Seems like a way of ‘innocently’ pushing the cap?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 January, 2020 19:51
Seems like a way of ensuring Sarries get out of trouble!

If Sarries players are rested for the 6N they have a huge advantage over every club that has an England International in their team.

Imagine Sarries full strength v Bath without, Stuart, Dunn, Obano, Stooke, Underhill, Faletau, Joseph, Watson. McConnochie etc.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2020 21:28 by shipwrecked.

warrenball
warrenball
08 January, 2020 20:43
And now we hear Harry is going to step down from his royal duties, I am not sure what England will do without his support? Maybe Megan will teach him the finer points of NFL?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 January, 2020 20:52
Harry has no choice but to do as he is told. No jollies for him from now on! (Sm86)



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2020 01:34 by shipwrecked.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
08 January, 2020 20:58
Quote:
shipwrecked
Seems like a way of ensuring Sarries get out of trouble!
If Sarries players are rested for the 6N they have a huge advantage over every club that has an England International in their team.

Imagine Sarries full strength v Bath with, Stuart, Dunn, Obano, Stooke, Underhill, Faletau, Joseph, Watson. McConnochie etc.

If Salaries players are not picked, they lose their England credits towards the celery cap. Rock meet hard place.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

fat lock
fat lock
08 January, 2020 22:09
What's the current England coaching setup?
Other than Eddie and Mitchell they all seem to have gone to clubs.
Anyone new appointed yet?

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
08 January, 2020 23:53
Quote:
fat lock
What's the current England coaching setup?
Other than Eddie and Mitchell they all seem to have gone to clubs.
Anyone new appointed yet?

Borthwick doesn't go to the Tigs til after the 6N?



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

JL904
JL904
09 January, 2020 02:58
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
shipwrecked
Seems like a way of ensuring Sarries get out of trouble!
If Sarries players are rested for the 6N they have a huge advantage over every club that has an England International in their team.

Imagine Sarries full strength v Bath with, Stuart, Dunn, Obano, Stooke, Underhill, Faletau, Joseph, Watson. McConnochie etc.

If Salaries players are not picked, they lose their England credits towards the celery cap. Rock meet hard place.

Won't make that much difference - WC campaign + warm-up matches mean Saracens have already used up most of their international credits.

opti
Optimist
09 January, 2020 08:08
I thought he’d recruited Simon Amor as attack coach?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
09 January, 2020 08:21
Hadn't seen that but it is confirmed in more than one source. thanks for the update.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

TomReagan
TomReagan
09 January, 2020 15:48
Quote:
warrenball
And now we hear Harry is going to step down from his royal duties, I am not sure what England will do without his support? Maybe Megan will teach him the finer points of NFL?

I suspect he'll still nobly fulfil his royal duties and attend rugby matches...

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
09 January, 2020 16:01
Quote:
TomReagan
Quote:
warrenball
And now we hear Harry is going to step down from his royal duties, I am not sure what England will do without his support? Maybe Megan will teach him the finer points of NFL?

I suspect he'll still nobly fulfil his royal duties and attend rugby matches...

Doubt it, Megan will ensure he is in North America October to March!



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

cb2
cb2
10 January, 2020 09:03
Isn't the SA scrum coach on his way?

DanWiley
DanWiley
10 January, 2020 09:52
Aren't international fees etc just outside the cap regardless?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
10 January, 2020 09:54
Quote:
DanWiley
Aren't international fees etc just outside the cap regardless?

Fees to the player are outside the cap. Compensation payments to the club for loss of the player are added to the cap. £10k or £5k per match (depending on the country that they play for) upto max of £80k.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

DanWiley
DanWiley
10 January, 2020 10:23
That sounds odd? So clubs get paid as they are losing players to internationals? Fair enough. But that's inside the cap? Why?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
10 January, 2020 12:02
Its not inside the cap. You get the compensation added to the cap. Like the injury dispensation and the academy credits. Its additional because they may need a larger squad to cover the internationals - the problem being that they don't actually know if they will get called up.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

DanWiley
DanWiley
10 January, 2020 14:37
"If Sarries players are rested for the 6N they have a huge advantage over every club that has an England International in their team."

So resting them for the 6N actually gives them a disadvantage as they don't get this "cap relief" ? If anything they want as many as possible playing?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
10 January, 2020 14:54
Quote:
DanWiley
"If Sarries players are rested for the 6N they have a huge advantage over every club that has an England International in their team."
So resting them for the 6N actually gives them a disadvantage as they don't get this "cap relief" ? If anything they want as many as possible playing?

If they aren't already up to the £80k then yes, you would assume so. Note that its only for certain games (prem and euro cups I think). As per one of the comments above given that they have played so many games at the RWC this year it make make zero difference in reality. as most of them could well be up to the £80k max.



[Adoptee: Tom Doughty - dynamic hooker born in Brighton, made at Team Bath. Record for BUCS top try scorer within a season]

ChippenhamRoman
ChippenhamRoman
17 January, 2020 05:40
I see Billy Burns has been picked for the Ireland squad.

Hazarding a guess that he didn’t grow up dreaming of playing for Ireland.

Have there been any British born brothers to play for two different Home countries before?

J

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
17 January, 2020 07:47
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
I see Billy Burns has been picked for the Ireland squad.
Hazarding a guess that he didn’t grow up dreaming of playing for Ireland.

Have there been any British born brothers to play for two different Home countries before?

J

Closest I can find are Donald MacDonald (Scotland) and Dugald MacDonald (South Africa).



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

P G Tips
P G Tips
17 January, 2020 08:17
Can't find detail on Donald, but Dugald was born in Durban. All 3 brothers (Colm was the 3rd) grew up in Cape Town - all won blues at Oxford.

The Moon brothers, born in Birmingham represented different countries- Richard England A in 1985, younger brother Rupert, Wales 1993.

PG

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
17 January, 2020 08:34
Stephen and Aaron Shingler, for Scotland and Wales, though it went wrong big time as the WRU went legal and it was deemed Stephen could only play for Wales.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

P G Tips
P G Tips
17 January, 2020 08:56
The Easterby's?



P G Tips


Josh Bayliss: my adopted Player, 2019-20.

opti
Optimist
19 January, 2020 20:46
Really feel for Billy V, but I think it makes Eddie’s selection more interesting. He could opt for a really mobile back row and look to play a very pacy game. He’ll need Manu fit - which is never guaranteed - but will be interesting to see Simmonds or Dombrandt come into the starting XV.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 January, 2020 05:41
Quote:
Optimist
Really feel for Billy V, but I think it makes Eddie’s selection more interesting. He could opt for a really mobile back row and look to play a very pacy game. He’ll need Manu fit - which is never guaranteed - but will be interesting to see Simmonds or Dombrandt come into the starting XV.

Simmonds, Underhill and either of the two Currys in the back row would be interesting. A bit lightweight but extremely rapid. The oppo would never get fast ball. Dombrandt is a special talent but I'm worried they'll coach that out of him. But it does look like 8 is his best position.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

warrenball
warrenball
20 January, 2020 08:03
Agree about Billy, it could be career threatening, but fortunately it is a very good time for him to have an extended rest and not need to be brought back too soon.

Agree about Dombrant, but I love the way Sam Simmons plays, I guess you have to pick the player to suit the way you want to play depending on your opposition. We have a wealth of talent coming through at 10 and maybe it is time to give Farrell and Ford a rest and take a look at promoting one of the younger fly halfs

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
20 January, 2020 08:46
More widely, can Eddie even risk picking any Salaries for the 6N?

The resentment from the players from other clubs is going to be pretty intense and that is not going to make for a united squad. Plus most of the Salaries are either going to be playing a reduced quality of games for at least 2 years, or they're not going to be Salaries players any more, and I doubt that many English clubs are going to want to imperil their own squad unity by employing them. If they are playing overseas, are the RFU really going to give Eddie special dispensation to pick players who cheated over a period of years? Even more, is he going to want one of them to be captain?

England need to rebuild the squad and team from the other Prem clubs. If nothing else, their sponsors will demand it.

"A game for thugs, played by gentlemen". Time to step up.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
20 January, 2020 09:00
Eddie is his own man, he'll pick Sarries players as long as they are playing well enough. I agree though that England will look for alternatives. As for Wales it only applies to Liam Williams, they would be mad to drop him even with little game time. International managers should be able to reset the mentality of their squad members, they are not playing for Sarries but England, Wales or Scotland.



https://i.ibb.co/pZ68Lvp/Ollie-Fox.jpg

Ollie Fox - England U20 international scrum half, youngest of our four 9's. If you are good enough, you're old enough!

warrenball
warrenball
20 January, 2020 09:36
Agree Shipwrecked, I doubt there is much animosity between current players, whatever club they play for, they are all in the same position trying to get the best wage they can knowing their career can be cut short at any time. Eddie will treat each player on his merit and want the best players for England. I doubt Eddie cares too much either way about the salary cap and will be far more interested in how the Saracens players react to the sanction. Looking at the game against Racing it does not seem to be adversely affecting their ability to play rugby.

MESSAGES->author
Rawce
20 January, 2020 09:43
Quote:
ChippenhamRoman
I see Billy Burns has been picked for the Ireland squad.
Hazarding a guess that he didn’t grow up dreaming of playing for Ireland.

Have there been any British born brothers to play for two different Home countries before?

J
Chatting to a chef at a restaurant in Bath who knew the family about 7/8 years ago hinted that they (perhaps both the Burnses) were eligible and may one day play for Ireland. I think this was before Freddie got his England caps and may have been when he first went to Glaws. I'm assuming with the Burns name there's a recent Ireland familial connection.


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