Latest news:

The COML Message Board

The place for discussion, debate and nonsense about Bath Rugby.

Join our new Facebook Group today!

New visitors please read the house rules before posting

Test your prognostications at our Prediction League


Seven Nations?
Discussion started by CoochieCoo (IP Logged), 08 February, 2020 11:18
Eastbath
Eastbath
08 February, 2020 13:17
Daily Mail piece mention here

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
08 February, 2020 15:20
No, no, and no again!

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
08 February, 2020 16:14
Yes but demote Italy



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
08 February, 2020 16:18
Rather than focus on the 6N in the NH my point would be world rugby would be the loser in the SH, leaving NZ and Australia with just Argentina in their championship. Perhaps SA just want to get away from playing against Japan?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
08 February, 2020 16:20
Crazy idea there all ready too many internationals, but no doubt the potential for increased revenue will override player burnout.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
08 February, 2020 18:56
Yeah, I suspect it will happen and world rugby will have to pay the price.

But it's still bonkers. A trip to SA is nothing like a trip to Italy, regardless of what the timezone says...



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
08 February, 2020 19:06
It would be far better to stick with 6 teams and look to see if Georgia should replace Italy for a while, or get them to play off at the end of the season.

Let the saffas stay in the southern hemisphere competition where they belong, and add Japan to their competition.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
08 February, 2020 19:15
I suspect this is nonsense.

John Tee
John Tee
08 February, 2020 22:01
Rather than mess with their championship World rugby would do better to bring up the second tier with financial help. That would mean the top teams should pass on revenue to help out, and also have a ban on schemes that takes their players from the national pool. Pigs will fly but having the likes of Italy, Japan and the PI be more competitive would enhance the world game imv.

To only have 4 winners of the rwc since inception is hardly inclusive ...and am i right in thinking only 5 nations have been finalists ..?

TomReagan
TomReagan
09 February, 2020 01:12
Possibly bad in terms of player welfare but good financially, so that makes it a serious possibility. Logistically, flight times from SA to London comparable with flight times to Oz, and quicker than NZ and Argentina. Time zones much closer to Europe too. If it came at the expense of an autumn international or two and created openings for Japan and one or more Pacific Island countries I could easily see the positives.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
09 February, 2020 05:18
Quote:
TomReagan
Possibly bad in terms of player welfare but good financially, so that makes it a serious possibility. Logistically, flight times from SA to London comparable with flight times to Oz, and quicker than NZ and Argentina. Time zones much closer to Europe too. If it came at the expense of an autumn international or two and created openings for Japan and one or more Pacific Island countries I could easily see the positives.

I think it's the lack of jetlag that's the main attraction. And the money.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shendy
09 February, 2020 13:58
Quote:
John Tee
To only have 4 winners of the rwc since inception is hardly inclusive ...and am i right in thinking only 5 nations have been finalists ..?

Sounds about right - Aus, NZ, SA and England have won it, France have also made the final.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
09 February, 2020 14:27
Oh I can massively see the appeal to South Africa. Not sure I see it for all the 6N though.

Barnoid
Barnoid
09 February, 2020 15:26
The environmental impact of incurring thousands of air miles, especially when other sports like F1 are trying to reduce their emissions, seems like a retrograde step.

Does CVC own a slice of the game in SA? If so, I can see why it might be appealing to them.

DanWiley
DanWiley
09 February, 2020 16:03
Seems a bad move for most. It's got to mean the end for Italy, perhaps not a bad thing, but they should add some sort of promotion to the 6 Nations and this means they won't do this. 6 Nations promotion would give more opportunities to NH Nations.

It makes the sh championship a joke (more so) and they should get more nations involved there, Japan being an obvious one. But I'd it's just NZ with only Oz providing any sort of interest it will founder.

The AIs and summer tests lose, no point involving sa.

And what do we gain? A geographically and culturally weird fixture, that we'd probably have anyway.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
09 February, 2020 19:35
Quote:
Barnoid
The environmental impact of incurring thousands of air miles, especially when other sports like F1 are trying to reduce their emissions, seems like a retrograde step.

Technically shorter to fly to South Africa from London to Johannesburg than from Auckland. Maybe in that respect it's a forward step winking smiley

Still an important point that one of the allures of the 6N is the rivalry between the 5 nations. Adding Italy hasn't really boosted or replaced that dynamic. Adding SA would mean just another team that doesn't fit in history of the tournament.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
09 February, 2020 20:08
Its difficult to imagine 5000 Irish fans travelling to Capetown for a 6N match
Its not difficult to imagine 5000 Irish fans catching the ferry to Cardiff.

Without the fans the atmosphere of the 6N disappears.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

TomReagan
TomReagan
09 February, 2020 22:37
I agree that the 6N (7N?) would lose its European identity which is a big negative, but would 6000 fans of any of the Home Nations make a once every two year trip to SA-pretty sure they would. A cold wet Feb with a few days of sunshine in SA... very appealing.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
10 February, 2020 08:04
It's a very big no from me for several reasons already mentioned. Imagine telling someone they aren't invited to a party anymore because you have someone better who can make it?

warrenball
warrenball
10 February, 2020 08:08
NO, adding Italy made a lot of sense and although they have lost most of their games they have still added to the tournament, but SA should stay in the southern hemisphere

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
10 February, 2020 08:37
Agree with WB here, I think we can expect steady improvement in Itly from here on, Conor O’Shea has put in some basic structure at grass roots level to bring on young Italian players. We take for granted the fact that these structures have been turning out players for years in the home regions. Calls to reject them are just not in the spirit of the game in my view.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

TomReagan
TomReagan
10 February, 2020 09:19
Whether or not SA became a part of the tournament shouldn't be conditional on losing an existing member, but I do think there needs to be an avenue for sides like Georgia to be in the mix, ie promotion and relegation.
I'm also not convinced divisions have to be based on which hemisphere you're in. It would make sense for Japan to be in that Oz, NZ tournament (with or without SA) but think Japan is in the northern hemisphere (?!). The biggest, and understandable objections will be about tradition and player welfare but AI's can be reduced. I think the most important thing is that more countries are given top fixtures and financial support which might need a shake up of the cosy existing arrangements in some form or another. Whether SA changing tournaments and the Pacific Islands and Japan playing Oz and NZ is part of that shake up I don't know. As long as it's not all about money--probably a naive wish, although Bill Beaumont has said supporting the Tier 2 nations has to be a priority....

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
10 February, 2020 09:41
Apart from the traditions involved the 6N is a bona fide tournament, the AIs are not, they are a chance for top nations to introduce new players to elite rugby.

You can't just throw out Italy without a 2nd tier version played at the same weekends. I guess the problem would be who else beyond Georgia is at a suitable level?

According to the IRB rankings, a 2nd tier would be:-
Georgia
Spain
Romania
Russia
Portugal
Netherlands

Is that too much of a quality gap between 13th Georgia and 25th Netherlands? Thinking player safety in the front row.

P G Tips
P G Tips
10 February, 2020 10:12
To suggest adding Italy has not boosted the dynamic of European rivalry ignores some facts:

France regularly played Italy for years before they joined the 6N - which is why victories over the French mean so much to Italy.

They have beaten Scotland 6 times - much their best record in individual 6N contests - which brings a certain "extra" now to that fixture.

Then, of course, there is the opportunity of a trip to Rome - considerably more interesting city than Johannesburg.

PG

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
10 February, 2020 10:22
Italy's U20s have been improving and getting better results, and they do play some good rugby, but are just a little below what is needed to win regularly, at the moment. Another couple of years of U20s coming through might see their fortunes turn.

cb2
cb2
10 February, 2020 11:02
South Africa would have to lose the Lions tours as a result of this. You would not want to have the position where they came 5th in the 7N, behind all the home nations, and then had to play a 3 test series against their combined strength.

I might be interested in a situation for 4 years, where we had the old 5N sides and then had a guest side for a season. First have SA, then Georgia, then Italy and then Japan or the Pacific Island sides playing at a neutral venue.

opti
Optimist
10 February, 2020 11:35
Good idea CB.

I don't think it's really possible to think of the 6Ns in isolation from world rugby, but if it were, I'd be happy to go back to the 5Ns and structure the Premiership season better.

But - parochialism aside - my greatest wishes are for Tonga/Fiji/Samoa to be enabled to keep their players, for Japan to continue their rise, for the Premiership season to make sense, and for player welfare to be paid more than just lip service - none of which, apart from Japan - is going to happen.

DanWiley
DanWiley
10 February, 2020 12:02
Having a two tier European competition seems like a good way forward to me. I might have a "play down", the bottom of the 6N playing the top of 6N-2. If, say, Georgia can't compete even with Italy then there's no point them replacing them that year and it gives Italy time to develop.

Keep the AIs for "SH" teams visiting us and summer tests for us visiting them.

That would be a nice structure in itself, you don't need to change it. The only real question is what you with the SH?

opti
Optimist
10 February, 2020 13:50
I think the 2-tier structure and the relegation/promotion play-off is a good idea. In reality, though, would the second tier ever beat the bottom placed 6Ns team? Italy, for example, would be thoroughly hardened up by playing Eng/Fra/Scot/Ire/Wal - while Georgia, for example would have spent their season playing teams that would probably ship 100 points were they to come up against a full-bore tier 1 nation.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
10 February, 2020 14:05
Quote:
Optimist
I think the 2-tier structure and the relegation/promotion play-off is a good idea. In reality, though, would the second tier ever beat the bottom placed 6Ns team? Italy, for example, would be thoroughly hardened up by playing Eng/Fra/Scot/Ire/Wal - while Georgia, for example would have spent their season playing teams that would probably ship 100 points were they to come up against a full-bore tier 1 nation.

That is probably the case but in terms of a pathway it might still be the best approach. Apply a bit of Darwin's theory and give it a few years. As I said earlier, the front row safety mismatch would be my main concern, more so than the final score.

Better than SA coming in.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
10 February, 2020 14:05
This was RILs view:

[twitter.com]

[twitter.com]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
FourSticks
10 February, 2020 15:41
Quote:
B4thB4ck
You can't just throw out Italy without a 2nd tier version played at the same weekends.

There is a second tier six nations operating in Europe (it's called the Rugby Europe Championship) and has done for some time. There's relegation to a third tier competition as well.

I recall a couple of years ago they were suggesting promotion and relegation between that comp and the 6 Nations, but it came to nothing.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
10 February, 2020 16:30
Quote:
FourSticks
Quote:
B4thB4ck
You can't just throw out Italy without a 2nd tier version played at the same weekends.

There is a second tier six nations operating in Europe (it's called the Rugby Europe Championship) and has done for some time. There's relegation to a third tier competition as well.

I recall a couple of years ago they were suggesting promotion and relegation between that comp and the 6 Nations, but it came to nothing.

Thanks for that. I did check for results elsewhere before posting but couldn't see any other internationals so either the media didn't report them or they are not played at the same time as the 6N.

cb2
cb2
11 February, 2020 07:34
Andy Robinson is an odd mix. He's a guy who hates losing but he ends up at Scotland and now Romania.

warrenball
warrenball
11 February, 2020 10:03
I see CVC are involved in this, it is a bit worrying because they have no interest in the sport, just the bottom line.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
11 February, 2020 13:17
The more I think about this, the more I think it was a balloon sent up by CVC to gauge reaction. Reaction is pretty negative. Don't see it happening.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net