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The Salary Cap loophole #97
Discussion started by Bod (IP Logged), 16 June, 2020 10:18
K-Nut
Bod
16 June, 2020 10:18
Two tier Premiership through "sharp" accounting and contracts


Why am I not at all surprised? I guess the clubs will always end up doing whatever they can "legally" get away with.

"The top clubs are said to be rushing to re-sign their elite players on long-term deals to "exploit a loophole" to avoid the £1.4 million reduction in the salary cap ahead of the introduction of the new regulations on Thursday. Sources claim a major split is emerging, with Bristol, Bath, Exeter, Saracens, Northampton, Sale and Harlequins said to have the financial strength to offer new deals – some as long as four years (two years plus the option for another two) – to their top players, that will effectively mean they avoid having to make cuts, as only 75 per cent of their salaries will count to the cap from 2021."




Keeping things topical :-

"Meanwhile, the Rugby Football Union is open to the possibility of players taking a knee when England next line up for the national -anthem."

What other political gestures would you like to see considered at HQ?


(Sm3)

gaz59
gaz59
16 June, 2020 11:09
"Meanwhile, the Rugby Football Union is open to the possibility of players taking a knee when England next line up for the national -anthem."

What other political gestures would you like to see considered at HQ?

None for the time being. That is a pretty good start if done meaningfully

Next would be some direct action. For example researching why there are so few black coaches in our game and identifying initiatives to address this

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 June, 2020 11:14
I was hoping that the clubs would have used this opportunity to reduce salaries not try to cheat again.

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
16 June, 2020 11:18
Quote:
woodpecker
I was hoping that the clubs would have used this opportunity to reduce salaries not try to cheat again.

If the RFU has said that then that's tantamount to forcing them to do so.

MESSAGES->author
ouch!_that_hurts
16 June, 2020 11:40
"Taking a knee" during the national anthem being played before a NFL game in American Football - a sport played wholly within one country - is one thing.

Doing so while representing your country in an international match is another; not least because it is hypocritical - either you represent your country or you don't.

SimonG19
SimonG19
16 June, 2020 11:53
Quote:
ouch!_that_hurts
"Taking a knee" during the national anthem being played before a NFL game in American Football - a sport played wholly within one country - is one thing.
Doing so while representing your country in an international match is another; not least because it is hypocritical - either you represent your country or you don't.

Sadly that's not true because in rugby it is becoming increasingly common to represent someone else's country.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 June, 2020 11:57
Quote:
gaz59
"Meanwhile, the Rugby Football Union is open to the possibility of players taking a knee when England next line up for the national -anthem."
What other political gestures would you like to see considered at HQ?

None for the time being. That is a pretty good start if done meaningfully


Not sure I agree, its a hash and I'm confused by this, taking the knee implies you are protesting against our own National Anthem. I am disappointed, this could be on the other thread as well. Its not a statement from the RFU, its letting someone else comment on their behalf and frankly in an odd manner.

Liverpool did it but with no International anthem connection.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
16 June, 2020 12:07
I don't know the answer to this but given the Black community is only 3% of the population I wonder how misrepresented they really are.

I would suggest that Asians are significantly less represented..........

P G Tips
P G Tips
16 June, 2020 12:08
On the question of the salaries, there is the complicating factor that reducing salaries of players already under contract could be legally challenged. As I understand it, the "loophole' being described is an allowance for management of this issue- perhaps one of our legally qualified posters can comment?

Clubs will therefore wish to avoid legal battles while still securing future services of their players.

The article does not say much that is new or revelatory. Unless clubs are centrally funded there will always be richer and poorer ones.The Cap and associated regulations are there to impose and police a fair pay policy to reduce the impact of financial differences.

PG

opti
Optimist
16 June, 2020 12:13
Possibly needs a separate thread, but ...

"taking the knee implies you are protesting against our own National Anthem"

I really can't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Wherever 'taking a knee' originated and however it was originally designed to speak to the Star Spangled Banner, it has evolved into a symbol of unity with people of colour, and has little to do with the national anthem. I'd say it's perfectly possible to sing the national anthem and give it whatever respect you feel it is due whilst kneeling and providing a visible and powerful (more so because of your platform) expression of solidarity.

Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt
16 June, 2020 12:21
Taking a knee is not a protest against an anthem it is an action to highlight a specific cause or protest. There is an uncomfortable attempt by conflating these two issues to portray people who take a knee as unpatriotic. A desire to reform your country is not unpatriotic.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
16 June, 2020 12:56
Quote:
Optimist
Possibly needs a separate thread, but ...
"taking the knee implies you are protesting against our own National Anthem"

I really can't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Wherever 'taking a knee' originated and however it was originally designed to speak to the Star Spangled Banner, it has evolved into a symbol of unity with people of colour, and has little to do with the national anthem. I'd say it's perfectly possible to sing the national anthem and give it whatever respect you feel it is due whilst kneeling and providing a visible and powerful (more so because of your platform) expression of solidarity.

I've responded to this on the BLM thread Opti.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
16 June, 2020 13:10
We should stand for and respect the anthems.

The players should take to the pitch for the match, not for gestures unless a minutes silence is appropriate beforehand which it could well be with fatal incidents. If they decide one is needed for BLM then I am happy for that to happen.

Let's not turn our national sports into a US aligned political theatre otherwise where do you draw the line with other protests that come along?

John Tee
John Tee
16 June, 2020 13:39
Quote:
gaz59
"Meanwhile, the Rugby Football Union is open to the possibility of players taking a knee when England next line up for the national -anthem."
What other political gestures would you like to see considered at HQ?

None for the time being. That is a pretty good start if done meaningfully

Next would be some direct action. For example researching why there are so few black coaches in our game and identifying initiatives to address this

None in this instance. This is an American thing.

As for representation, i like to think cream rises to the top so im not one for quotas for quotas sake.
If you need to hit a number, that could 'discriminate' against someone who had all the necessary qualities but were outside the quota number so that is a no for me.

I dont think people of a certain colour are held back anymore than anyone else...how granular do you want to get in the reasons someone doesn't get that position.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
16 June, 2020 16:32
OK all I think we're getting heavily O/T. I think fine to speak about potential protests - but suggest you keep it to the BLM thread. This thread can continue on salary cap points. Ta.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
16 June, 2020 18:02
So...hold on. Did't the cap reduce from £6.4m to £5.0m, but now as they can tie people in and only claim 75 % the cap is effectively £6.66m if they don't sign anyone after Thursday, whilst the salaries have (permanently?) gone down by 25%? I'm no Carol Vorderman but something appears to be contrary there?



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
16 June, 2020 19:03
Quote:
P G Tips
On the question of the salaries, there is the complicating factor that reducing salaries of players already under contract could be legally challenged. As I understand it, the "loophole' being described is an allowance for management of this issue

I don't think I agree re it being for management of how to transition to a lower salary base. If that was the PRL members could have come out of the meeting with an agreement that said that every player currently under contract would have those contracts honoured but they would count 75% against the cap in the next two seasons when the cap was reduced.

Instead what they did was give themselves a nice fortnight window in which time presumably many new contracts were negotiated to take advanatge of the 75% value.

Bathmatt53 it's worse than that if I understand it correctly. If you sign up your whole squad for the next two seasons now working against the current £7M cap (with all allowances) plus 2 marquees then whether you pay them their full salary or 75% it will be counted as 75% for the next two seasons, so £5.25M versus the £6M cap (with all allowances for the next season)

If I understand that right you could actually add 750Ks worth of "new" players to your squad for the next two seasons and still be in cap for an effective real-world cap of £7.75M ... surely that can't be right??
That means a

dcsh
dcsh
16 June, 2020 19:06
The date the contracts need to be in place to only count 75% should have been the date that the decision to reduce the cap was made or even the day before. That way people wouldn’t have the opportunity to exploit the loophole. I can see the point of having an exemption for pre-existing contracts, as it reduces the legal fallout of trying to unilaterally change a contract that has already come into force to fit the reduced cap.

Rich.
Rich.
17 June, 2020 07:06
I think it's a compromise not a loophole. It enables those clubs who didn't want the cap reduced to, in effect, avoid the cap reduction but allows those clubs who wanted it to be reduced to say to their squads that they need to reduce salaries from 2021 to fit with the new cap.

So in theory it helps players at some clubs to have a contact extension on better terms than would be possible without this clause. BUT the risk is that some players at the start of their career risk accepting a long term offer which in a few years (if they become as good as they can) might not reflect their worth.

But the way this clause was not made public from the start doesn't look good.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
17 June, 2020 09:50
Looks like Sale have tied all of theirs down in line with the qualification criteria - long contracts on reduced salary.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

dr.bath1865
dr.bath1865
17 June, 2020 10:01
So are we expecting long term renewals for AW, JCok, JJ, Underhill, Mercer, Ewels etc in the coming days?

Seems an odd practise to circumnavigate the supposed changes to the cap but if other clubs are doing it then I hope Hooper is on to it!

Rich.
Rich.
17 June, 2020 11:12
Quote:
BathMatt53
Looks like Sale have tied all of theirs down in line with the qualification criteria - long contracts on reduced salary.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Not according to that link they haven't - that link is about all of them agreeing to a 25% permanent pay cut (no mention of contract extensions)

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
17 June, 2020 11:49
Quote:
Rich.
Quote:
BathMatt53
Looks like Sale have tied all of theirs down in line with the qualification criteria - long contracts on reduced salary.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Not according to that link they haven't - that link is about all of them agreeing to a 25% permanent pay cut (no mention of contract extensions)

I read this bit as meaning that their new reduced salaries were tied in with the 3 to 4 year contract period, but Sale have recently been giving long contracts anyway so maybe not.

But Sale say their salary reductions will allow their squad - which includes South African stars Faf de Klerk and Lood de Jager as well as England back row Tom Curry and Scotland back Byron McGuigan - to "remain together for the next three or four years".



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

K-Nut
Bod
17 June, 2020 12:26
Jeff's POV

Will this now deliver consistently better players? Is that his theory?

(Sm3)

MESSAGES->author
Jim H
17 June, 2020 14:47
With regards to the Sale statement the language is telling. Playing staff have "amended terms" for the next 3-4 years, non-playing staff have "reductions". This would seem to be purely an effort to get everyone under the 25% salary discount for the reduced cap period.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
29 June, 2020 18:25
Looks like Gibson has fallen foul of rugby austerity:

[www.northamptonsaints.co.uk]

Only 29 still. Good player but similar to Bayliss (rangy, fast) and would prefer our boy especially with Reid coming through.

Tigers potentially losing up to 12 players, including Internationals.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

Maybe paywalled, in which case:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Probably only Ford* and Noel Reid that would suit us - wouldn't say no to Genge* though just for a chuckle. (*not that either would join Bath in a million years).



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
29 June, 2020 18:36
Won't they all just sign up on Tuesday (tommorrow) then? They won't have time to strike a deal before then.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
30 June, 2020 17:47
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Northampton Saints: Lawes, Biggar & Hutchinson among 19 to sign new deals.

Also, Searle has signed a new one before even playing a game for Worcs!!



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

charlieboa
charlieboa
30 June, 2020 19:03
Quote:
BathMatt53
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53238951
Northampton Saints: Lawes, Biggar & Hutchinson among 19 to sign new deals.

Also, Searle has signed a new one before even playing a game for Worcs!!

Each scenario will be different but is the assumption that most will be lower annual salary but longer term? Club happy, player happy (in terms of more security)?

Imagine we have the likes of obano, stuart, stooke, mercer, jj, watson, coko coming off contract after next season and pretty sure the club would be v keen to keep them all and on similar salaries long term.

Will stuarts stock has risen significantly this season i would say but the others all signed their last contracts when we already knew they were very very good players. Zach may argue he has kept improving and coko has become an eng player but like watson 18m ago not ideal to negotiate having not played a game in several months.

charlieboa
charlieboa
30 June, 2020 19:32
And assume the vast majority (if not all) of the extensions being announced by the likes of glos and saints were signed by 18 June?

Imagine we, as usual, are sitting on a load of news as rumours were we are one of the clubs who were very much on the front foot in terms of capitalising on this situation re cap in 21/22.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
30 June, 2020 21:08
Quote:
charlieboa
And assume the vast majority (if not all) of the extensions being announced by the likes of glos and saints were signed by 18 June?
Imagine we, as usual, are sitting on a load of news as rumours were we are one of the clubs who were very much on the front foot in terms of capitalising on this situation re cap in 21/22.

I think that the actual deadline was midnight tonight but the clubs imposed an earlier one on the players. Tigers were still re-signing today / this eve.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
30 June, 2020 21:18
So tomorrow we will know if there is anyone out of a job!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

charlieboa
charlieboa
30 June, 2020 22:30
Quote:
BathMatt53
Quote:
charlieboa
And assume the vast majority (if not all) of the extensions being announced by the likes of glos and saints were signed by 18 June?
Imagine we, as usual, are sitting on a load of news as rumours were we are one of the clubs who were very much on the front foot in terms of capitalising on this situation re cap in 21/22.

I think that the actual deadline was midnight tonight but the clubs imposed an earlier one on the players. Tigers were still re-signing today / this eve.

Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks matt. Fingers crossed for some news over the next few weeks that is good for players, club and supporters

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 July, 2020 15:03
No wonder 19 of the signed new contracts - only 10% pay cut from normal salary for 12 months then back to normal (the 25% cuts end).

[www.bbc.co.uk]



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 July, 2020 15:14
Would you not think Bath did something similar to get a fast resolution with little adverse press comment?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 July, 2020 15:49
Tigers board remarkably blasé about losing Tuilagi and Eastmond, who is Ford going to have outside him now I wonder?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 July, 2020 16:03
Quote:
shipwrecked
Tigers board remarkably blasé about losing Tuilagi and Eastmond, who is Ford going to have outside him now I wonder?

How many games have they actually played for Tigers between them? Due to Internationals and injuries they are both luxuries tbh. No chance MT is worth 1/2 million.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
01 July, 2020 17:00
Quote:
shipwrecked
Tigers board remarkably blasé about losing Tuilagi and Eastmond, who is Ford going to have outside him now I wonder?

Tbh I sort of get where they are coming from.
Eastmond just doesn't cut it at the top level and for every half-decent game he has he's out for a couple of months injured or because he's not feeling it. Given he was one of the "Ford gang" at Bath it would be no surprise that he's overpaid at Leicester too.

Tuilagi is an expensive luxury for a club who are probably optimistically looking at knocking about mid-table for a while. If you're top 4 I think he's the sort of player you definitely want as he makes a difference in the biggest games. He's not going to be delivering those performances week-in-week-out though even when he's available from International duty.

The big question I guess is if those two don't sign will the club try and fill the holes with what it has or will they go "shopping" It's not the worse time in the world to be looking for a good player at less than what they're probably )or used to be) worth. A centre from the Jaguares? One from one of the SA teams? etc Jamie Roberts? (Sm100)

charlieboa
charlieboa
01 July, 2020 18:06
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Wouldnt say no to taufua.

Losing garvey, douglas, davies and flo from back 5 of scrum, even with the likes of merigan and reid coming through does feel like it has left us slightly light and willIiams may need to play second row a bit

charlieboa
charlieboa
01 July, 2020 18:16
Standard caveat that 10 is top priority.

Taufua you would imagine will end up in france or japan?

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
01 July, 2020 18:38
What sort of backrow do you need charlieboa? I'm amazed that Gibson has been let go from Saints. An incredible player and can help sort your lineout as that still seems to be a work in progress for Ewel. Doesn't offer much go forward but is good in the wider channels and is brilliant at spoiling opposition ball.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
01 July, 2020 19:14
Quote:
charlieboa
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/53256761
Wouldnt say no to taufua.

Losing garvey, douglas, davies and flo from back 5 of scrum, even with the likes of merigan and reid coming through does feel like it has left us slightly light and willIiams may need to play second row a bit

Taufua would be on top whack presumably - not that interested in any of them for Baths current needs. A mid-range utility back who comfortably covers 13 and a 10 would be fine. Unless Max Clark can stay for for a few games in which case just a 10 would be fine ta.



[Adoptee 19 / 20: The High ball and counter attack meister, Tom Homer]

charlieboa
charlieboa
01 July, 2020 19:35
Big fan of gibson as well. Similar skill set to tom croft i always think.

As i say i assume taufua will go to france or japan on big bucks.

I am with you matt , would be happy with a 10 and have a squad that offers lots of opportunity for an exciting crop of youngsters who get game time.

I am slightly underwhelmed by our options at 13 beyond jj but otherwise very happy with the squad.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 July, 2020 19:41
Quote:
charlieboa
Big fan of gibson as well. Similar skill set to tom croft i always think.
As i say i assume taufua will go to france or japan on big bucks.

I am with you matt , would be happy with a 10 and have a squad that offers lots of opportunity for an exciting crop of youngsters who get game time.

I am slightly underwhelmed by our options at 13 beyond jj but otherwise very happy with the squad.

I think Rory Mc would be an excellent 13 actually.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

charlieboa
charlieboa
01 July, 2020 20:07
Could be worth a look there. Has he played 13 a few times for utd?

Guess we may be a little light on numbers in the back 3 when coko and watson are with eng but more than happy to see tdg and ghw get lots of games.

dcsh
dcsh
01 July, 2020 20:38
Quote:
charlieboa
Could be worth a look there. Has he played 13 a few times for utd?
Yes, at least one, but I’d prefer him out wide.

Noel Reid would be worth a conversation. Fly half/centre and would know Dempsey well having sent 8 year at Leinster before going to Leicester. Probably not an upgrade on Burns, but certainly a better option that Alex Davies while the youngster develop.

MESSAGES->author
joethefanatic
01 July, 2020 21:20
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
charlieboa
Big fan of gibson as well. Similar skill set to tom croft i always think.
As i say i assume taufua will go to france or japan on big bucks.

I am with you matt , would be happy with a 10 and have a squad that offers lots of opportunity for an exciting crop of youngsters who get game time.

I am slightly underwhelmed by our options at 13 beyond jj but otherwise very happy with the squad.

I think Rory Mc would be an excellent 13 actually.

I'd have thought the bag of clubs would slow him down too much.



... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
01 July, 2020 21:47
Quote:
joethefanatic
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
charlieboa
Big fan of gibson as well. Similar skill set to tom croft i always think.
As i say i assume taufua will go to france or japan on big bucks.

I am with you matt , would be happy with a 10 and have a squad that offers lots of opportunity for an exciting crop of youngsters who get game time.

I am slightly underwhelmed by our options at 13 beyond jj but otherwise very happy with the squad.

I think Rory Mc would be an excellent 13 actually.

I'd have thought the bag of clubs would slow him down too much.

I presume you are so chirpy simply because Arsenal won 4-0 tonight then Joe (Sm48)



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!


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