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O/T Insidious racism and fascism: George Floyd theme reprise
Discussion started by gaz59 (IP Logged), 27 June, 2020 11:50
gaz59
gaz59
27 June, 2020 11:50
Not sure if there is interest in continuing this debate but this is an excellent article that charts the rise of American fascism and the consequential racist aggression.

[www.nybooks.com]

Too many chilling parallels with some aspects of our own country for me. Could it happen here?

Only hoping a few more people will read the article but happy to discuss further if anyone interested

MESSAGES->author
Widcombe Boy
27 June, 2020 14:33
Very interesting and very very worrying...

MESSAGES->author
hasta
27 June, 2020 15:07
This line stands out:

Quote:
conspicuous features are recognizably shared, including: nostalgia for a purer, mythic, often rural past; cults of tradition and cultural regeneration; paramilitary groups; the delegitimizing of political opponents and demonization of critics; the universalizing of some groups as authentically national, while dehumanizing all other groups; hostility to intellectualism and attacks on a free press; anti-modernism; fetishized patriarchal masculinity; and a distressed sense of victimhood and collective grievance.

B4thB4ck
B4thB4ck
27 June, 2020 15:25
I am quite possibly naive in these things but is anyone else optimistic that although modern communications makes it easy to spread nasty idealistic stuff that government agencies and the mainstream media should be all over that type of thing quickly?

A bit glass half full maybe but not so difficult to counteract as in previous generations?

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
27 June, 2020 15:53
[www.bbc.co.uk] - Facebook feeling backlash

[www.bbc.co.uk] - IT minority viewpoint

K-Nut
Bod
28 June, 2020 00:13
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TVC2iclTcUQ/hqdefault.jpg

https://thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/25994679_1572379886163202_3595077153156976184_n_360.jpg

T'was ever thus

(Sm3)

MESSAGES->author
hasta
28 June, 2020 00:23
Please make a point rather than posting random memes.

K-Nut
Bod
28 June, 2020 00:53
I made my point.
I guess you're perhaps too blind to see it.
Or don't want to?
Anyway, that's my contribution to your echochamber so far.

Don't tell me how or it what way I'm allowed to contribute unless it's offensive or abusive.

I find it amusing that the most "fascistly" intolerant of freedom of speech and belligerently insulting of a dissenting POV are the leftist liberals.

https://youngblkrepub.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/dscn1082.jpg


(Sm72)

DanWiley
DanWiley
28 June, 2020 09:17
I don't know what point you were trying to make.

John Tee
John Tee
28 June, 2020 10:00
People will hear about events and wonder why some have taken such actions...and if those actions are typical and precedented, they might come to the conclusion that this is the way it is, and they'll be sceptical that things will change. It takes two to do that.

opti
Optimist
28 June, 2020 10:29
Crikey bod. You've taken offence where there's none apparent, let alone anything 'belligerently insulting'. You've shouted 'Don't tell me how or it what way I'm allowed to contribute' when no-one has got anywhere close to suggesting that you can't. And then you've given offence by calling those people fascists, who are 'intolerant of freedom of speech'. And, sorry - we're the 'snowflakes' right?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
28 June, 2020 10:37
Quote:
DanWiley
I don't know what point you were trying to make.

Frustrating isn't it, my wife does the same, fantastic person and I love her to bits but she seems to think everyone can hear what she is thinking so some comments make absolutely no sense simply because there is no context.

Dan's right here, there is a need to explain the point or that post is ignored and you just move on.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

P G Tips
P G Tips
28 June, 2020 10:58
I ageee Opti.

Bod - once again, please keep it civil.

PG

warrenball
warrenball
28 June, 2020 11:29
Gaz, you ask could it happen here and the answer obviously is yes, anything is possible, but it is also possible in almost any other country in the world and far more likely in a lot of other countries than over here. Equally we could become communist, but again unlikely.

We have freedom of speech which means people are allowed, within the law, to offer their opinions and those who disagree can challenge them. A proportion of the population are trying to water down this freedom of speech and to a degree are succeeding, but as long as we have it there will be people at both extremes preaching hate in various forms, I am optimistic the bulk of the population in the middle will see the extremists for what they are and reject them.

gaz59
gaz59
28 June, 2020 11:51
Well the point I took from Bod's posting was that when you can get a Black economist to back Trump then the insidious indicator has hit 100% and the revolution is complete but I'm guessing that isn't the point he was trying to make

gaz59
gaz59
28 June, 2020 12:01
warrenball, there is zero chance this country could become a communist state. The democratic forces and structures, thankfully are far too deep and strong. And anyway one of the key arguments in the article is that fascism won't be an imported thing, it will evolve incrementally into a nation's behaviour and culture

I take your point about other countries will be just as, if not more vulnerable. Hungary, Italy and Poland are probably the most likely ones there but we can't control what goes on there. My worry is that too much of what appears to be the America First playbook seems to be either happening here or has considerable potential to happen

John Tee
John Tee
28 June, 2020 13:55
There is racism everwhere in all countries from all races...
i dont think you'd have to look hard for examples...
Europe, Americas, Middle East, Eastern blocs, Far east, Africa.
And probably on a far worse scale...

Barnoid
Barnoid
28 June, 2020 14:08
Great albeit quite alarming article Gaz. Thanks for sharing.

In return, I can wholeheartedly recommend this video which I think is pertinent to the conversation and some of the responses posted 'ere. The description reads: "University of Washington professor Dr. Robin DiAngelo reads from her book "White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism," explains the phenomenon, and discusses how white people can develop their capacity to engage more constructively across race."

MESSAGES->author
hasta
28 June, 2020 14:32
No one can work out what your point is Bod, you appear to be posting US Republican electoral literature from (at best) 8 years ago. I didn't tell you what to do, I asked you to make a point. We're generally happy to let threads meander, but the preference is to keep them roughly to topic.

Freedom of Speech (which, to be clear, we don't have stated as an explicit right like in the US and is already limited, such as by hate-speech, libel) protects you from the government prosecuting you. Not quite sure how this is being watered down.

BBandW
BBandW
28 June, 2020 14:39
A friendly word Bod - never a good idea to post in the early hours of the morning. People might wonder if you are tired and emotional.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
28 June, 2020 19:36
So now it's confirmed BlackLivesMatter is another leftist, crank organisation with shades of potential anti-Semitism. Glad the premier League adorned their kits and stadium with the branding of such an organisation.

Like a minority of us said on the other thread, rugby needs to stay away from the movement when expressing anything. These movements are never neutral.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
28 June, 2020 19:40
You're going to need to provide some evidence to back up your 'confirmed' there.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
28 June, 2020 19:46
Quote:
The Bear
So now it's confirmed BlackLivesMatter is another leftist, crank organisation with shades of potential anti-Semitism. Glad the premier League adorned their kits and stadium with the branding of such an organisation.
Like a minority of us said on the other thread, rugby needs to stay away from the movement when expressing anything. These movements are never neutral.

Perhaps it just needs to be balanced by a right wing promoter of black rights. If its anti-Semitic than that's deplorable but if it facilitates appropriate change does it matter if its left wing?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
28 June, 2020 21:42
Hasta -you're a twitterati - go check out the Blacklivesmatteruk twitter feed for the evidence The Bear hints at.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
28 June, 2020 21:55
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Hasta -you're a twitterati - go check out the Blacklivesmatteruk twitter feed for the evidence The Bear hints at.

DB, its not unreasonable to ask for a link and not everyone has Twitter, big statements need backing up with some sort of reference. Loads of moody stuff out there!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

BBWGladiator
BBWGladiator
28 June, 2020 22:27
Quote:
hasta
You're going to need to provide some evidence to back up your 'confirmed' there.

Surely their own fund raiser page tells you how extreme they are in the 2nd paragraph?
Seems like a one way ticket to Anarchy to me? The violent side of the protests lend fuel to that.
All fanned by the main stream media and large organisations promoting it.


[uk.gofundme.com]

Mike the Taxi
Mike the Taxi
28 June, 2020 22:28
[www.bbc.co.uk] - Things just as bad in India

Substitute
Substitute
28 June, 2020 22:55
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
The Bear
So now it's confirmed BlackLivesMatter is another leftist, crank organisation with shades of potential anti-Semitism. Glad the premier League adorned their kits and stadium with the branding of such an organisation.
Like a minority of us said on the other thread, rugby needs to stay away from the movement when expressing anything. These movements are never neutral.

Perhaps it just needs to be balanced by a right wing promoter of black rights. If its anti-Semitic than that's deplorable but if it facilitates appropriate change does it matter if its left wing?

I don't have twitter but did a google search and they're saying ( the kind of things that got RLB sacked for copying.

I don't get why the extreme left engenders less fear (and hand-wringing) than the extreme-right? They both rely on each other and feed off each other. You wouldn't give an extreme-right group the oxygen to facilitate 'appropriate change' - so why are we listening to nutcases on the other end of the spectrum?

MESSAGES->author
hasta
28 June, 2020 22:56
Welp, yeah looks like they screwed up that message. You can see from the thread that they're trying hard to provide receipts and thread the needle between criticising the Israeli state and anti-semitism. They @#$%& it up royally though.

I don't believe that it invalidates the Black Lives Matter message or that the Premier League are wrong for making a clear point against racism. There seems to have been more violence from Liverpool fans at winning the league (and certainly way more per capita from far right 'statue protection' protests) than there were from BLM.

Also I couldn't care less if other countries are 'more racist', this isn't a competition. There is systemic racism in Britain. It's bad. We should work to decrease it.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
28 June, 2020 23:00
I'd note that is different to the article that RLB retweeted - the anti-semitism there was clear from attributing the American tactics of knees on necks to the Israeli defence force. Which a. Doesn't appear to be true and b. Why are you singling out the Israelis?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
28 June, 2020 23:15
Deleted



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/06/2020 23:30 by shipwrecked.

John Tee
John Tee
28 June, 2020 23:42
Quote:
hasta
Welp, yeah looks like they screwed up that message. You can see from the thread that they're trying hard to provide receipts and thread the needle between criticising the Israeli state and anti-semitism. They @#$%& it up royally though.
I don't believe that it invalidates the Black Lives Matter message or that the Premier League are wrong for making a clear point against racism. There seems to have been more violence from Liverpool fans at winning the league (and certainly way more per capita from far right 'statue protection' protests) than there were from BLM.

Also I couldn't care less if other countries are 'more racist', this isn't a competition. There is systemic racism in Britain. It's bad. We should work to decrease it.

Yep, where should we start...how about change the name.
All lives matter has a good ring..

gaz59
gaz59
28 June, 2020 23:47
Quote:
Barnoid
Great albeit quite alarming article Gaz. Thanks for sharing.
In return, I can wholeheartedly recommend this video which I think is pertinent to the conversation and some of the responses posted 'ere. The description reads: "University of Washington professor Dr. Robin DiAngelo reads from her book "White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism," explains the phenomenon, and discusses how white people can develop their capacity to engage more constructively across race."

That's a complex video with lots of challenging viewpoints Barnoid. I'm gonna watch it again before making comment but thank you for sharing it

MESSAGES->author
hasta
29 June, 2020 08:41
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
hasta
Welp, yeah looks like they screwed up that message. You can see from the thread that they're trying hard to provide receipts and thread the needle between criticising the Israeli state and anti-semitism. They @#$%& it up royally though.
I don't believe that it invalidates the Black Lives Matter message or that the Premier League are wrong for making a clear point against racism. There seems to have been more violence from Liverpool fans at winning the league (and certainly way more per capita from far right 'statue protection' protests) than there were from BLM.

Also I couldn't care less if other countries are 'more racist', this isn't a competition. There is systemic racism in Britain. It's bad. We should work to decrease it.

Yep, where should we start...how about change the name.
All lives matter has a good ring..

Here's more on that

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
29 June, 2020 08:46
Couple of interesting articles about the objectives of BLM UK - careful what you wish for.....

SDP Talk article

Spectator article



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/06/2020 08:48 by Dorset Boy.

John Tee
John Tee
29 June, 2020 15:56
Quote:
hasta
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
hasta
Welp, yeah looks like they screwed up that message. You can see from the thread that they're trying hard to provide receipts and thread the needle between criticising the Israeli state and anti-semitism. They @#$%& it up royally though.
I don't believe that it invalidates the Black Lives Matter message or that the Premier League are wrong for making a clear point against racism. There seems to have been more violence from Liverpool fans at winning the league (and certainly way more per capita from far right 'statue protection' protests) than there were from BLM.

Also I couldn't care less if other countries are 'more racist', this isn't a competition. There is systemic racism in Britain. It's bad. We should work to decrease it.

Yep, where should we start...how about change the name.
All lives matter has a good ring..

Here's more on that

Seems to be talking about America...and then you say

"Also I couldn't care less if other countries are 'more racist', this isn't a competition. There is systemic racism in Britain. It's bad. We should work to decrease it."

So which one is it..??

I think the way the current stance comes across it is not going to win support outside of a small already converted group of people.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
29 June, 2020 16:18
Just been doing a little bit of research.........

UK has a Black population making up about 3.4% of total population

University students are about 8% Black.........

So that looks OK at least................

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
29 June, 2020 17:05
I'm genuinely astonished that the leader of the opposition has only just realised that BLM wanted to 'defund the police'. They were saying that before he took the knee...

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
29 June, 2020 17:43
Quote:
The Bear
I'm genuinely astonished that the leader of the opposition has only just realised that BLM wanted to 'defund the police'. They were saying that before he took the knee...

I'm not as it happens, from previous experience Kier Starmer is only as good as the man/woman standing next to him!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

warrenball
warrenball
30 June, 2020 09:18
Hasta your comment about not caring if there is racism in other countries misses the point that racism is everywhere and has been throughout human history, although it is not a competition it is useful to understand where any particular country is relative to the rest of the world.

If you want to reduce racism you have to take people with you, not keep trying to beat them over the head telling them how bad they are and acknowledge there are other groups of people who suffer discrimination at least as badly as those congregating under the BLM banner.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
30 June, 2020 10:13
Quote:
warrenball
If you want to reduce racism you have to take people with you, not keep trying to beat them over the head telling them how bad they are and acknowledge there are other groups of people who suffer discrimination at least as badly as those congregating under the BLM banner.

Very true, I also wonder if thats not true of the BLM movement itself, does the inclusion of the political marxist agenda not reduce their appeal?



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
30 June, 2020 10:36
I would say that democracy is more vulnerable in the UK than USA. In the UK we have an election every 5 years and if the winner gets a good majority (easy using FPTP), we get a 5-year dictatorship.

In the UK we have:
A PM (and his aides) who decide policy without reference to cabinet.
A supine House of Commons that will loyally vote for anything.
Parliamentary Committees with little power (eg. Cummings in contempt of DCMS, No Russia Report because no ISC).
An unelected and virtually powerless House of Lords.
Centralised government with little power for cities and councils.
A largely supportive right-wing press and national broadcaster.
Political appointees in control of the justice system and police (PP & Co).

In the USA:
Elections every two years.
Congress in the hands of the opposition.
Congressional committees with high profile and real power.
Decentralised government with a lot of power in the hands of state governors and city mayors.
A constant barrage of criticism from certain section of the press (the 'fake news').
At least some of the judicial system showing some signs of independence (eg SDNY).



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
30 June, 2020 11:03
Quote:
jayeatman
I would say that democracy is more vulnerable in the UK than USA. In the UK we have an election every 5 years and if the winner gets a good majority (easy using FPTP), we get a 5-year dictatorship.

This is not correct but, even so, what has it got to do with black lives matter and racism in society.

We are under absolutely no threat of falling under a racist dictatorship.



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
30 June, 2020 13:50
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
jayeatman
I would say that democracy is more vulnerable in the UK than USA. In the UK we have an election every 5 years and if the winner gets a good majority (easy using FPTP), we get a 5-year dictatorship.

This is not correct but, even so, what has it got to do with black lives matter and racism in society.

We are under absolutely no threat of falling under a racist dictatorship.

Feel free to disagree with me, but please give reasons!
The original article was all about the rise of fascism in USA, not particularly BLM.
I agree BJ looks a lot less of a racist fascist than DJT BUT I still think the way our democracy is designed, it is more vulnerable than the US model, and as the article says, just as an American fascist will not look like a German or Italian one, neither would a British one look like an American one.



BATH supporter since 1975

Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni

gaz59
gaz59
30 June, 2020 14:18
I think you're right jayeatman. The political and social structures we have make a formal move towards a fascist state highly unlikely but there are considerably opportunities to exploit that makes a more insidious process entirely possible. Like you say and as the article argues the form such a transformation takes will be a native one, not imported

warrenball
warrenball
30 June, 2020 14:24
Jayeatman, all the more reason too go back to the unelected hereditary peers who were not under the control of any political party. Don't think you could call the BBC largely supportive, have you seen Newsnight since the children took over?

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
30 June, 2020 16:24
Quote:
jayeatman
...the way our democracy is designed, it is more vulnerable than the US model, and as the article says, just as an American fascist will not look like a German or Italian one, neither would a British one look like an American one.

In history our parliament has never had a fascist, or communist government.

In order to have a fascist, or communist, government would require the consent of a plurality of the population. The population is neither and would remove any government that was.

We have a supreme court that (as it showed) in the absence of a written constitution has exceptional powers to set the scope of the judgement and would never remove the democratic requirement.

We have relatively few 'natural' laws, meaning almost all government actions can be reversed.

I suspect it is your belief, anti-fascism is achieved by setting inviolable laws and removing power from the people to vote on certain topics. It also involves stuffing the system with a load of people who think like you. Both of which are a sure fire way to lead political disenfranchisement, increase partisanship and encourage more dangerous political activity.

Also remember Conservative MPs are way to the left socially of the average voter (and are more representative of a Labour voter).



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

gaz59
gaz59
30 June, 2020 18:40
TB, I can only assume that either you have not read the article I posted the link to or you have but just don't understand the central argument

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
01 July, 2020 13:58
Quote:
The Bear
In order to have a fascist, or communist, government would require the consent of a plurality of the population. The population is neither and would remove any government that was.

No UK government in history has had a plurality vote for them.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
01 July, 2020 14:00
Quote:
The Bear
I suspect it is your belief, anti-fascism is achieved by setting inviolable laws and removing power from the people to vote on certain topics. It also involves stuffing the system with a load of people who think like you. Both of which are a sure fire way to lead political disenfranchisement, increase partisanship and encourage more dangerous political activity.

WTF

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
01 July, 2020 14:03
Quote:
The Bear
Also remember Conservative MPs are way to the left socially of the average voter (and are more representative of a Labour voter).

WTAF!
Maybe 10 years ago but now, no way.
The current lot including their leader reflect the political views of the 100k members of the Tory party, far to the right of the average voter.

P G Tips
P G Tips
01 July, 2020 15:06
There's a long history of cultural resistance to political extremism in this country. When the republican experiment of Cromwell's Commonwealth Protectorate failed, the monarchy was invited back and tolerated - but only until it stopped out of line.

When James II tried to rule as an absolute monarch, by decree and without parliament, he was deposed and an alternative King was invited to take his place -on condition he ruled with the consent of parliament.

Centuries of gradual change followed leading to a constitutional monarchy and a parliament for whom all sane adult commoners could vote.

British Fascism in the 1930s failed, not just because of unfortunate associations with Hitler's National Socialists, but also because the British voter rejected it at the ballot box and in vocal (occasionally violent) street demonstrations.

Similarly, communism has minimal electoral success, even though far left wing elements operate from time to time within the Labour Party and some unions.

Since 1688 the British preference has been for evolution - not revolution.

The creation of a fascist state here would surely require the latter.


PG

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
01 July, 2020 15:16
Good summary PGT. Both the extreme right and the extreme left are equally abhorrent. Fascism and Communism will never win as all elections are one and lost by the majority of voters centre right, left and middle.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

gaz59
gaz59
02 July, 2020 08:14
Was with you on most of that PGT up until the final bit

One variance midway and that is British Fascism failed in the ballot box precisely because of it being an imported model. One of the central themes in Churchwell's article is that it would need to be a native model to succeed and not be associated closely with that from another country

And that is where the idea of it being revolution led is false. As you rightly point out the British culture is for evolution not revolution. It is also true that the British people generally align with sympathies of the far right much more than those of the far left. Brexit, for example was rooted in anti-immigration, blast back to the glory days of the empire and a 'let's make Great Britain Great again' agenda. It so happened to get traction with those on the hard left who resented the EU bureaucracy for being in their view pro-corporate business and American friendly. An unholy and abhorrent alliance, I agree CC

The press still holds a lot of influence on political outcomes and the likes of Telegraph, Mail, Express and Sun frequently promote strong right wing views and policies. With Cummings in the driver's seat organising populist campaigns against scapegoat after scapegoat [recently that has been teachers' unions, followed by Sedwill and the Civil Service for example] I believe we are not a million miles away from the vulnerability to an insidious far right evolution as Jayeatman has suggested

But of course we are describing a spectrum of political positions here and with any spectrum your perception of where someone or some body else is depends largely on where you are

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
02 July, 2020 11:04
Quote:
gaz59
It is also true that the British people generally align with sympathies of the far right much more than those of the far left.

I think you answered your own terrible generalisation in this post here Gaz...

Quote:
gaz59
But of course we are describing a spectrum of political positions here and with any spectrum your perception of where someone or some body else is depends largely on where you are



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
02 July, 2020 12:10
Thing is, politics doesn't lie on a spectrum, which is a flat line, it is really a circle, though perhaps with a slight gap at the bottom (somewhere between 5 & 7 on a clock face).

I also disagree with this statement from Gaz: "British people generally align with sympathies of the far right much more than those of the far left. "
I don't think they align with either - though obviously there are some on the extremes of both sides.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 July, 2020 12:16
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Thing is, politics doesn't lie on a spectrum, which is a flat line, it is really a circle, though perhaps with a slight gap at the bottom (somewhere between 5 & 7 on a clock face).
I also disagree with this statement from Gaz: "British people generally align with sympathies of the far right much more than those of the far left. "
I don't think they align with either - though obviously there are some on the extremes of both sides.

I'd agree most people are between in the middle 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock which is why Blair did so well.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

gaz59
gaz59
02 July, 2020 13:26
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Dorset Boy
Thing is, politics doesn't lie on a spectrum, which is a flat line, it is really a circle, though perhaps with a slight gap at the bottom (somewhere between 5 & 7 on a clock face).
I also disagree with this statement from Gaz: "British people generally align with sympathies of the far right much more than those of the far left. "
I don't think they align with either - though obviously there are some on the extremes of both sides.

I'd agree most people are between in the middle 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock which is why Blair did so well.

The Cummings analysis flips that thinking. This is not about looking at the political spectrum, and of course it isn't a narrow flat line but more of a wheel in the same way as the colour spectrum, and saying wow the majority fall into the middle bands. It is about identifying the issues that the majority can rally around and defining that as the centre ground. Then finding an 'enemy' or scapegoat and labelling that as "the blocker" to make it a campaign, a call to arms, for building momentum for the cause

And you're right, Blair used that very well, hence his strategy of 'the third way' That's the challenge for Starmer, to develop a suite of policies that appeal to core Labour supporters including those who voted Conservative last time and with each individual policy to pick off enough votes from Liberals, Greens, SNP and soft tories whilst steadily building the narrative of the Conservative government as 'asleep at the wheel', constantly late to take appropriate action to critical issues, supporting vested interests at detriment of ordinary people and not delivering on grand promises. A very tough long term assignment though a very successful start

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
02 July, 2020 14:02
Quote:
gaz59
And you're right, Blair used that very well, hence his strategy of 'the third way' That's the challenge for Starmer, to develop a suite of policies that appeal to core Labour supporters including those who voted Conservative last time and with each individual policy to pick off enough votes from Liberals, Greens, SNP and soft tories whilst steadily building the narrative of the Conservative government as 'asleep at the wheel', constantly late to take appropriate action to critical issues, supporting vested interests at detriment of ordinary people and not delivering on grand promises. A very tough long term assignment though a very successful start

You cannot be serious about that? He's barely been noticed and I doubt anyone outside of his cheerleader brigade that know what he stands for.

I don't align myself with any political party and never will, but I'm not seeing Starmer as a remote improvement on Boris.

gaz59
gaz59
02 July, 2020 15:02
With Labour back in touching distance of Tories in the polls, more people think Starmer would make a better PM than Johnson, a significant majority seeing the narrative that this government has handled the C19 crisis badly and week on week hammering Johnson at PMQs, then Yes, I would say that was a very successful start

Some may differ, I accept but at this stage of the life of the parliament the above is exactly what Starmer has to do. As he says, as Leader of the Opposition, his role is to keep holding the government to account

The party is engaging on a very thorough and wide consultation process on policy which is absolutely right after the massive defeat in December. From there he will start to build up the portfolio of policies that may up the party's manifesto at next GE but that is a year or two away

Until then, all he needs to do to show "what he stands for" is to keep doing his job and ensure his actions are swift when required to back up his promises. Hence his quick dismissal of RLB when she acted contrary to his commitment to the Jewish community. In stark contrast to Johnson with regards Cummings and Jenrick. Not difficult to see what Johnson stands for here in comparison to SKS is it?

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
02 July, 2020 15:13
Problem with Starmer is he has no ideas of his own, he will need a 'Dominic Cummings' to develop policies for him. He is also wildly out of touch with everyday life. Vanilla springs to mind.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
02 July, 2020 15:21
The issue for labour is Starmer seems sensible but most of the MPS are either dangerous lunatics or dimwitted morons. The conservative party on the other hand seem to be relatively sensible apart from the cabinet who are either dangerous lunatics or dimwitted morons.

K-Nut
Bod
03 July, 2020 00:51
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
The Bear
Also remember Conservative MPs are way to the left socially of the average voter (and are more representative of a Labour voter).

WTAF!
Maybe 10 years ago but now, no way.
The current lot including their leader reflect the political views of the 100k members of the Tory party, far to the right of the average voter.

Your average voter in the Labour heartlands, away from your bubblesphere echoboxes, felt happier with the message of the 100K than that of their traditional tick box option offered by the lunatic "Brothers and Sisters". It'll be exactly the same, with probably more than a +80 for Boris in 2024.

Having spent the last week visiting manufacturers, mainly from N.Midlands, Manchester, N.Wales up to NE, who, after much cajoling and arm twisting on my part to convince them to at least give our W.African organisation a bigger share of their raw materials supplies directly from Ghana, Togo, Nigeria and Cameroon a chance to expand their supply options, I'm delighted to say, the result is positive. We've sent the team from Nigeria and Ghana back home (London via Milan to Lagos, Accra, special dispensation letter as suppliers to a Key Industy, Food packaging, gets them past all scrutinies to justify travel) with double programmes to supply that I'm advised will generate between 600-700 more positions of secure employment (mainly women).


We enjoyed a nice evening at the home of the MD of one of the companies we visited and the topical conversations were covered. Not one of the 3 W.Africans could relate to BLM since they'd (their families)seen Marxist Governments destroy countries after Independence during 60s/70s in the name of the Black struggle .

Africans are typically more conservative than most. Family and tradition is uppermost.
Not in UK to common display.

As one commented " I don't see how you claim there is Right Wing in England, only "right thinking"...................the left are very dangerous...........they come to Africa and give stuff away for free and destroy traditional society fabric of search and work, our children are always taught to work to live, be suspicious of free, free is a drug that will kill you if you cannot survive alone."


Anyway, to keep the majority contributors to COML happy given your profound political and psychological dysfunctions regarding how the real world functions (I'll not mention HK) from your perspective, I'm a loathsome right wing (Nigerian = Right Thinking) fascist

There's the constituency , you have your category to "tick box"

The fact I voted Brexit will fill your Bingo card


God Bless, even you atheists, I'll give you agnostics time to peruse

(Sm85)

P G Tips
P G Tips
03 July, 2020 07:26
It’s quite a stretch Bod to describe “the majority” COML contributors as you do.

A very interesting post is spoiled bu your snarky tone at the end.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2020 07:51 by P G Tips.

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
03 July, 2020 07:38
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
The Bear
Also remember Conservative MPs are way to the left socially of the average voter (and are more representative of a Labour voter).

WTAF!
Maybe 10 years ago but now, no way.
The current lot including their leader reflect the political views of the 100k members of the Tory party, far to the right of the average voter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbqGhlwVAAAEBfo?format=jpg&name=small

To the contrary. It would seem most people don't think like you do nor, I guess, want what you are prescribing.

One more thing, it is easier to move the party than the voting population.

John Tee
John Tee
03 July, 2020 08:15
My office is multi national.
Southern Europeans, eastern, Indian, African and middle East...and a few South Africans
Their views or thoughts are pretty conservative, imv, on things like migration and work.
They are all skilled engrs.
The Syrians and Iraqis have an interesting take on the middle east troubles but not too far off of centre.

The only one who would align to a BLM theme is one who has grown up in the u.k so this kind of sits with the point Bod was making.

warrenball
warrenball
03 July, 2020 09:01
The difference, John, is that migrants know what life is like in their own country and appreciate the freedoms and values of their host country which is why they usually do well. The problem comes in the first and second generation who are British, but often have a romanticised view of their 'home country'. Naturally their parents would have kept up certain traditions within the home and it is normal their children would one day want to visit and see where their parents came from, but because the children do not understand the reasons why their parents moved they do not appreciate all the advantages their parents move has given them.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
03 July, 2020 09:17
Yes Warren that is a very good post.

In a similar vein when I have visited India, I was brought up there, I am shocked to see young Europeans wandering around in a really filthy state as they perceive, romantically, that they are trying to fit in with the very, very poor people around them. Whereas of course all the locals know that white people are dollar/pound notes on legs and they have chosen...........for an extended holiday.............to be filthy whilst living in a Guest House.

Whereas in fact they are despised. Given the critical importance of cleanliness both culturally and religiously, obviously if you are living on the street it is very hard to get and keep as clean as you would like.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 July, 2020 09:24
Quote:
P G Tips
It’s quite a stretch Bod to describe “the majority” COML contributors as you do.
A very interesting post is spoiled bu your snarky tone at the end.

PG

I agree PG, an interesting post and together with WB's and BSJ's posts above have added to my perception of how I view race.
I also agree about the 'sign off comments' the post's message was eroded slightly by that. The point remains of course.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

warrenball
warrenball
03 July, 2020 09:47
I am sure the average Nigerian would be amused by the thought of unconscious bias in the UK, my experience of Nigeria is over 30 years old but I am sure Nigerians have not changed too much and the sort of bias I used to see between different religions and groups within Nigeria was very conscious and far more evident that anything you get here. To reduce it to just black and white is far too simplistic.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
03 July, 2020 10:12
How about he caste system in India!!

gaz59
gaz59
03 July, 2020 11:58
Quote:
shipwrecked
Problem with Starmer is he has no ideas of his own, he will need a 'Dominic Cummings' to develop policies for him. He is also wildly out of touch with everyday life. Vanilla springs to mind.

LoL, of course he doesn't need a Cummings. I followed the Labour leadership election closely as a member and SKS has plenty enough ideas but, as I've said, the party, rightly is engaging in a full and meaningful policy consultation right across the board. He would be senseless to pre-empt that review

To suggest he is wildly out of touch with everyday life is an extraordinary allegation given his family background and the many 'everyday' people his represented successfully in his work and compared to Johnson et al

And, I think he would fully accept the vanilla metaphor for being distinct and effective without being overpowering as well as being very popular across a broad range of areas

To bring it back to the thread, I see him as by far and away the best PM prospect to avoid a slide towards an insidious, racist, possibly neo-fascist culture

John Tee
John Tee
03 July, 2020 13:06
Quote:
warrenball
The difference, John, is that migrants know what life is like in their own country and appreciate the freedoms and values of their host country which is why they usually do well. The problem comes in the first and second generation who are British, but often have a romanticised view of their 'home country'. Naturally their parents would have kept up certain traditions within the home and it is normal their children would one day want to visit and see where their parents came from, but because the children do not understand the reasons why their parents moved they do not appreciate all the advantages their parents move has given them.

I asked a well travelled South African what was the attraction of northern europe and they said 'you'd never be poor in the U.K...not by their definition of poor, anyway'

So, this is why migration will continue.

MESSAGES->author
jayeatman
03 July, 2020 13:38
Quote:
The Bear
Quote:
jayeatman
Quote:
The Bear
Also remember Conservative MPs are way to the left socially of the average voter (and are more representative of a Labour voter).

WTAF!
Maybe 10 years ago but now, no way.
The current lot including their leader reflect the political views of the 100k members of the Tory party, far to the right of the average voter.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbqGhlwVAAAEBfo?format=jpg&name=small

To the contrary. It would seem most people don't think like you do nor, I guess, want what you are prescribing.

One more thing, it is easier to move the party than the voting population.

I think we may be conflating 'social values' with actual policies.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
03 July, 2020 13:47
Quote:
Gaz
LoL, of course he doesn't need a Cummings. I followed the Labour leadership election closely as a member and SKS has plenty enough ideas

Problem is they are not his own! As for representing people that was years ago, we have already seen evidence of his 'intellectual isolation' on the radio. You will see in due course.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
03 July, 2020 13:49
Quote:
Bath Supporter Jack
How about he caste system in India!!

The caste system is of the Hindu religion. The top caste are the Brahmins or priest caste, then the warriors, then the traders and then the working caste. The latter were the untouchables or as Gandhi called the Harijans (children of God). They are now called Dalits. Hindus believe in reincarnation and the fact that what one does in this life affects how you return in a next life and you could go down (or up) the ladder of the castes into animal life.

It is not discrimination of one race to another but a religious discrimination of how humans are perceived by their peers because of birth. Dalits are now recognised in high office and in 1997 elected a Dalit as the President of India.

The law of the land does not allow discrimination of Dalits in any form but there is still a cultural issue in society that a Brahmin or a person of higher caste may object to eating or socialising with a Dalit. It is dying out slowly as the modern generation now mix in schools so the stigma dissipates..



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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John Tee
John Tee
03 July, 2020 13:59
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Gaz
LoL, of course he doesn't need a Cummings. I followed the Labour leadership election closely as a member and SKS has plenty enough ideas

Problem is they are not his own! As for representing people that was years ago, we have already seen evidence of his 'intellectual isolation' on the radio. You will see in due course.

All Starmer has to do is not stuff up to the wider electorate...the current situation is enough to damn Johnson regardless of what he does, but who knows he might rise to the occasion, however unlikely that seems. Plenty of time yet, and everyone is focused on Covid anyway.

Starmer has his own little internal war on the horizon... and it is keeping a lid on that that will count.

No one doubts he is not an intelligent type, but that is just one quality he needs.
My worry would not be Starmer himself, so much, it would be the wider team and that will be a weakness as well as an ability to actually lead well.

I do think he needs a Cummins type of his own.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
03 July, 2020 14:27
Thanks CC I was aware of most of that.

My eldest son was until relatively recently working in New Delhi, playing rugby for Delhi, in a fully Indian team, no expat NZ or Australians.

We went out to see him on a couple of occasions and it seemed like the caste system was still evident.

What I meant was just as you can't change the colour of your skin, neither can you change the caste you are born into.

P G Tips
P G Tips
03 July, 2020 14:45
Coochie

Do caste members still adhere to the social restrictions -e.g Vegetarian v meet eating, abstention v drinking alcohol?

And are people comfortable with taking up employments outside the traditional confines of their caste?

PG

gaz59
gaz59
03 July, 2020 15:02
Quote:
John Tee
Quote:
shipwrecked
Quote:
Gaz
LoL, of course he doesn't need a Cummings. I followed the Labour leadership election closely as a member and SKS has plenty enough ideas

Problem is they are not his own! As for representing people that was years ago, we have already seen evidence of his 'intellectual isolation' on the radio. You will see in due course.

All Starmer has to do is not stuff up to the wider electorate...the current situation is enough to damn Johnson regardless of what he does, but who knows he might rise to the occasion, however unlikely that seems. Plenty of time yet, and everyone is focused on Covid anyway.

Starmer has his own little internal war on the horizon... and it is keeping a lid on that that will count.

No one doubts he is not an intelligent type, but that is just one quality he needs.
My worry would not be Starmer himself, so much, it would be the wider team and that will be a weakness as well as an ability to actually lead well.

I do think he needs a Cummins type of his own.

You're right that McCluskey and co have slipped back into the trench having had RLB kicked off the shadow team and there will be an internal battle further down the road but SKS is getting his ducks in a row. David Evans as Gen Sec was a crucial appointment, Kate Green to replace RLB has got good pedigree and his shadow front bench has a fair amount of quality compared to their counterparts

Dodds is an unknown and that is Labour's most potential weakness as the next GE will be determined on the perceived confidence to rebuild the economy post C19 without austerity or tax explosion. Only Gordon 'Prudence' Brown has managed to convince the electorate that he could run the economy better than a tory

SKS doesn't need a Cummings and in fact that is not how Labour develops policy, it is a far more devolved, arguably more democratic process. He needs, though to articulate a clear, compelling vision as a framework for the policies but there is time for that to emerge

BerkeleyWood
The Bear
03 July, 2020 15:11
[quote jayeatman]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbqGhlwVAAAEBfo?format=jpg&name=small

To the contrary. It would seem most people don't think like you do nor, I guess, want what you are prescribing.

One more thing, it is easier to move the party than the voting population.[/quote]

I think we may be conflating 'social values' with actual policies.[/quote]

Given the majority the Conservatives comfortably won, with a Leader selected by a majority of the Conservative members, and Labour's crushing defeat, with a leader resoundingly selected by its members; have you considered whether it is fact you who are further away from the average voter?



Adopted Player:
[18] - Taulupe Faletau

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
03 July, 2020 15:34
Its interesting that chart because if it were to be taken at face value..........Conservative MP's are almost exactly the same as Labour voters and which means that Conservative voters should logically feel that their MP's do not represent their views...................

So is their room for a Far Right Party and should Keir Starmer, Liz Kendall, Steven Kinnock, Hilary Benn et al join the Conservative Party??(Sm159)

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
03 July, 2020 15:44
Quote:
P G Tips
Coochie
Do caste members still adhere to the social restrictions -e.g Vegetarian v meet eating, abstention v drinking alcohol?

And are people comfortable with taking up employments outside the traditional confines of their caste?

PG

All the Hindu castes are vegetarians but some Hindus do eat chicken but never beef unless they are lapsed Hindus. The cow is sacred to the Hindu. Alcohol is not a religious restriction although Mahatma strongly opposed it and in the earlier years prohibition was brought in with people allowed so many units a month on medical grounds.

I can recall going to a booze shop and having to get my permit stamped by the chowkidar assigned to the shop! There are some states still with prohibition and some have a dry day every month!

Dalits tend to be from the poorer classes so usually are sweepers, cleaners etc. A Dalit could not be a cook or work in the kitchen of a strict Brahmin or upper caste as they would not allow a Dalit to prepare or cook their food. There is no reason a Dalit can’t work himself up in an office but some of the old guard might show their prejudices.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2020 15:48 by CoochieCoo.

warrenball
warrenball
03 July, 2020 16:58
CC, is there more discrimination between Hindu castes or between people of different religions? In other words would a Brahmin be more likely to make friends with a Muslim or Christian than a dalit?

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
03 July, 2020 18:11
Quote:
warrenball
CC, is there more discrimination between Hindu castes or between people of different religions? In other words would a Brahmin be more likely to make friends with a Muslim or Christian than a dalit?

The caste system is peculiar to the Hindu faith. India is a non secular country and the Hindus are the majority religion, 80%, however Muslims living in India amount to 14% and the rest are Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians etc. I am sure the Dalit President of India was respected by Brahmins but as stated the old school would not go out of their way to befriend a Dalit. As regards different religions there is an obvious clash between Hindus and Muslims and there is an uneasy stand off in most parts of India except Kashmir.

The problem is summed up in that one religion eats the cow and the other worships it.

Under the British Raj the two co existed but after partition all hell was let loose. By and large the country is tolerant and some activities can be a catalyst for friendship such as Cricket!



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

John Tee
John Tee
03 July, 2020 18:32
Quote:
CoochieCoo
Quote:
warrenball
CC, is there more discrimination between Hindu castes or between people of different religions? In other words would a Brahmin be more likely to make friends with a Muslim or Christian than a dalit?

The caste system is peculiar to the Hindu faith. India is a non secular country and the Hindus are the majority religion, 80%, however Muslims living in India amount to 14% and the rest are Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians etc. I am sure the Dalit President of India was respected by Brahmins but as stated the old school would not go out of their way to befriend a Dalit. As regards different religions there is an obvious clash between Hindus and Muslims and there is an uneasy stand off in most parts of India except Kashmir.

The problem is summed up in that one religion eats the cow and the other worships it.

Under the British Raj the two co existed but after partition all hell was let loose. By and large the country is tolerant and some activities can be a catalyst for friendship such as Cricket!

Interesting...and the final paragraph summary is easy to remember..
Reminds me of my iraqi friend who lived in Baghdad during both wars but had to get out in 2005 when things got really bad, in his view.

He said he never knew or cared what religion his neighbours were...never came up or was an issue to that population.
However, some elements needed and wanted to create division and that the north was forever fighting..it is what they did.

P G Tips
P G Tips
03 July, 2020 18:39
Yes CC

I found India very tolerant on my visits there. Last visit in 2018 one of our guides was explaining caste to us and he was the one who told me that many would stay within the professions of their caste ( but try to better themselves within it - so a merchant would aim to increase his business by growth & acquisition for example).

He also stated that he - as a warrior - was permitted meat - he ate mutton & poultry and could drink alcohol.

I foiund that the people I met were very well informed about other faiths in India and about their history.

Mostly - apart from distrust of Pakistan & China - I saw no xenophobia.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2020 20:05 by P G Tips.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
03 July, 2020 18:50
On my last trip there 2 and a bit years ago it struck me that all of our guides, who were Hindu, seemed to be concerned by the increasing %'age of the population made up by Muslims. I understand on Partition it was 90%/10%.

To be fair our Buddhist guide in Sri Lanka expressed the same reservation 6 months ago. Sri Lanka having a very large Buddhist population.

warrenball
warrenball
03 July, 2020 22:45
Interesting insight on India, given the current aggressive attitude of China around the world and the tensions on the border with China why does India seem to be more closely allied to China than the West?

I understand China is much stronger but India must be worried about China's colonial ambitions?

John Tee
John Tee
04 July, 2020 07:32
All my life I just knew China would be a problem...
You dont trust Trump and you dont trust China.

The thing with Trump is he is gone either this year or in 4 years time.

P G Tips
P G Tips
04 July, 2020 07:34
Quote:
warrenball
Interesting insight on India, given the current aggressive attitude of China around the world and the tensions on the border with China why does India seem to be more closely allied to China than the West?
I understand China is much stronger but India must be worried about China's colonial ambitions?

Is India aligned with China? I thought that was Pakistan.

PG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2020 07:45 by P G Tips.

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
04 July, 2020 08:24
Quote:
P G Tips
Quote:
warrenball
Interesting insight on India, given the current aggressive attitude of China around the world and the tensions on the border with China why does India seem to be more closely allied to China than the West?
I understand China is much stronger but India must be worried about China's colonial ambitions?

Is India aligned with China? I thought that was Pakistan.

PG

Quite right PG. China has poured money into Pakistan.



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
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warrenball
warrenball
04 July, 2020 08:45
I am sure this money is not aid but is either loans or comes with strings giving China future control

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
04 July, 2020 10:20
Quote:
warrenball
I am sure this money is not aid but is either loans or comes with strings giving China future control

Not sure its always loans, sometimes they take on massive civil engineering projects and simply do them significantly cheaper. Happens in South America as well even in third world nations like the UK where they are building nuclear reactors!



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!


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