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Chiefs Logo etc
Discussion started by BathMatt53 (IP Logged), 29 July, 2020 17:33
BathMatt53
BathMatt53
29 July, 2020 17:33
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Exeter to keep Chiefs name & logo, but retire 'Big Chief' mascot

That is definitely a step in the right direction - lose the 'amusing' caricature IMO. It will be interesting to see how many of their fans slap on the war paint and headdress and wave around a plastic tomahawk...hopefully not many.



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
29 July, 2020 18:11
Ive always said that my main objection is grown men acting like eight year olds rather than whether it could offend a US visitor, let's hope they stop now.

MESSAGES->author
OutsideBath
29 July, 2020 18:24
Quote:
woodpecker
Ive always said that my main objection is grown men acting like eight year olds rather than whether it could offend a US visitor, let's hope they stop now.

+1

Grown men wailing whilst wearing ridiculous headdress is annoying and childish. With any luck they will stop and support their fine team in an adult manner instead.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
29 July, 2020 18:32
Is it a good move? They are keeping the logo and the name, all the branding will stay exactly as it currently is. I can't see its anything but a token gesture.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

K-Nut
Bod
29 July, 2020 19:36
Who really gives a monkeys'?
(Sm3)

Beergoggles
Beergoggles
29 July, 2020 20:41
Quote:
Bod
Who really gives a monkeys'?
(Sm3)
Presumably those who’ve posted here.

The faux red indian nonsense is the second most annoying thing about playing Exe. Leaving with our behinds in our hands being the most annoying. Definitely a step in the right direction for Exe.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 29/07/2020 20:43 by Beergoggles.

warrenball
warrenball
29 July, 2020 21:01
Lots of men go to rugby every week and act like 8 year olds, it does not need a feather bonnet to do that. Far more unsightly are the masses of middle aged beer bellies stuffed into rugby shirts in the unfortunate belief it looks attractive.

Whether or not it is cultural appropriation surely depends if the wearer is doing it with the intention of laughing at or trying to degrade the native Americans and obviously they are not, any more than Saracen supporters or Tommy Cooper were trying to decry the culture of Turks or Moroccans

Rolfs_Cartoon_Club
@Hydor18
29 July, 2020 22:14
Should Saracens fans stop wearing fezzes?

K-Nut
Bod
29 July, 2020 22:30
Have the England football team appropriated African animal images for their team badge?
You'd have an intriguing conversation with Millwall fans on the same subject I'd offer.
(Sm3)

John Tee
John Tee
30 July, 2020 00:03
The logo was always lame but only getting rid of the mascot restores a degree of perspective
People seem to like these gestures but dont really seem keen to have proper discussion about the issue.

K-Nut
Bod
30 July, 2020 00:13
Quote:
John Tee
The logo was always lame but only getting rid of the mascot restores a degree of perspective
People seem to like these gestures but dont really seem keen to have proper discussion about the issue.

I don't see any rational issue other than something a Students Union debating society would piddle their pants about.

(Sm3)

MESSAGES->author
Duke of Earl
30 July, 2020 08:30
Quote:
Bod
Quote:
John Tee
The logo was always lame but only getting rid of the mascot restores a degree of perspective
People seem to like these gestures but dont really seem keen to have proper discussion about the issue.

I don't see any rational issue other than something a Students Union debating society would piddle their pants about.

(Sm3)
+1



Nothing can stop the Duke of Earl

MESSAGES->author
Robbinho
30 July, 2020 08:38
Think part of the problem is that Exeter’s ‘review’ was a discussion between their board, who I’m going to go out on a limb and say probably don’t contain any Native Americans.

Equally, I’m guessing none of us commenting are Native American so probably not best placed to determine whether their logo and imagery is offensive.

Nick Mullins shared this twitter thread yesterday which gives a lot of context to Exeter and some US sports teams and how they're viewed by native Americans and the damaging stereotypes they perpetuate.

[twitter.com]

opti
Optimist
30 July, 2020 09:42
Step 1: Consult actual Native Americans
Step 2: Implement anything reasonable they suggest
Step 3: Play rugby

Ali1969
Ali1969
30 July, 2020 09:48
Personally and I stress personally the entire situation of what is "right" or "wrong" has slowly been getting out of control and now we are left with the current situation - basically you cannot speak or literate anything without someone raising objections or pointing a finger of accusation at you, it's like the Pendle Witch trials all over again.

Whilst we will and must continue in the fight to eradicate behaviour which threaten the very fabric of society. We appear to be searching for Utopia which does not exist and my worry is this is playing into the hands of radicalists and bigots who will spin and turn these objections into weapons of hatred.

Where do we draw the line - Did Exeter rugby club when it adopted the name Chiefs go out to offend and ridicule the Native American population - NO. Did Northampton when the club adorned the Saints go out to ridicule and offend ecclesiastical establishments or religions? NO

Personally I think we all need to calm down and concentrate on eradicating the issues which are glaring in our public eye such as directed hatred aimed at players and people based on race, religion, sex, nationality and belief and once these are under control because you will never totally eradicate an ideology then we can consider the non conscious issues.

That's my thoughts anyway, sorry if I have offended anyone no offence meant, just getting a bit fed up of this continual "Witch Hunt/Inquisition" which in my mind acts like a smoke screen for bigger issues in sport and our national community.

K-Nut
Bod
30 July, 2020 10:02
Spot on the money Ali.
How've you been fella?
(Sm42)

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
30 July, 2020 10:13
Quote:
Ali1969
Personally and I stress personally the entire situation of what is "right" or "wrong" has slowly been getting out of control and now we are left with the current situation - basically you cannot speak or literate anything without someone raising objections or pointing a finger of accusation at you, it's like the Pendle Witch trials all over again.
Whilst we will and must continue in the fight to eradicate behaviour which threaten the very fabric of society. We appear to be searching for Utopia which does not exist and my worry is this is playing into the hands of radicalists and bigots who will spin and turn these objections into weapons of hatred.

Where do we draw the line - Did Exeter rugby club when it adopted the name Chiefs go out to offend and ridicule the Native American population - NO. Did Northampton when the club adorned the Saints go out to ridicule and offend ecclesiastical establishments or religions? NO

Personally I think we all need to calm down and concentrate on eradicating the issues which are glaring in our public eye such as directed hatred aimed at players and people based on race, religion, sex, nationality and belief and once these are under control because you will never totally eradicate an ideology then we can consider the non conscious issues.

That's my thoughts anyway, sorry if I have offended anyone no offence meant, just getting a bit fed up of this continual "Witch Hunt/Inquisition" which in my mind acts like a smoke screen for bigger issues in sport and our national community.

Ok but can they stop making those stupid noises the @#$%&

Kidney Stone
Kidney Stone
30 July, 2020 10:48
Ali1969 100% spot on.

Herds of people queuing up to be offended on behalf of others seems to be a national sport these days. It is simply ridiculous.

The worst part is that these sideshows can detract from the real issues that should be addressed.

The guys that wear those Roman Soldier helmets at the Rec may offend the waiter at my local Prezzos. It must stop!,,

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
30 July, 2020 11:14
Well, I only sort of agree, 'remote empathy' can be annoying but its a political tactic to get change.

The point is though that in the country where 'native indians' live, the US, there has been recognition that it was wrong. Washington has dropped the name and the images and changed to Washington Football Team. The point is that "The Redskins" are alive and kicking, the Roman Empire has moved on.

Just because there is an ocean between us and the ethnicity involved doesn't alter the argument in my view.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

TG Kesmo
TG Kesmo
30 July, 2020 11:27
Sorry personal opinion only ...but wearing war paint and making what they perceive to be traditional are Indian noises is the equivalent of “blacking up” neither should be tolerated in this day and age.
If they want to change it to chieftains and use a logo of a tank fine by me.

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
30 July, 2020 11:30
Quote:
TG Kesmo
Sorry personal opinion only ...but wearing war paint and making what they perceive to be traditional are Indian noises is the equivalent of “blacking up” neither should be tolerated in this day and age.
If they want to change it to chieftains and use a logo of a tank fine by me.

Thats actually a good idea! Given the Army connections.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

MESSAGES->author
hasta
30 July, 2020 12:02
The Exeter fans who pushed for change are clear that the name is not the issue. The mascot, logo and iconography are the problems and this is particularly underlined by the steadfast refusal to engage on the issue and consult with actual Native Americans about it.

No one is accusing anyone of bad faith when adopting the brand at first. Times change, this was an excellent opportunity to rebrand, still as Chiefs, and the Ex board have muffed it. They've not engaged sufficiently to make this go away.

Bath Supporter Jack
Bath Supporter Jack
30 July, 2020 12:12
How about Exeter open discussions with "The Native American Heritage Association" and make an annual payment for the use of the logo and associated effects.

Just as if you use any brand you would pay a royalty.

Surely then everyone's a winner?

DorsetBoy
Dorset Boy
30 July, 2020 12:41
As Hasta says, the name is not the issue as the Exeter 1st team were known as the Chiefs for many, many years I believe. Chief as is main.

The branding of Chiefs as Native Americans was and is crass, so doing away with the mascot and headdresses is a step in the right direction.
If the club badge changed as part of that crass branding, then perhaps the board should have changed that too.

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
30 July, 2020 14:31
Spot on Ali. No one can say or do anything these days without somebody bleating that is offensive or goes against that persons or country's human rights or some such. Look at comedy programs being banned for taking the rise out of someone, with caricatures that are obviously figures of fun, not insulting, and not the actors trying to cause offense. Far from it. Otherwise, soap operas like Eastenders should be banned for portraying people living in the East End of London. All those cockneys should be up in arms if people actually lived and behaved like some characters are portrayed.

There are far more important issues and actual conflicts which really do harm in this World which get forgotten about or swept under the carpet.

If anyone bothered to read what the Exe board said, they referred to the long standing British and Devon peoples' traditions of calling leaders or groups Chiefs. They are not and have not ever wanted to insult or offend anybody. In fact, their playing staff and some supporters come from all over the World, including black and asian players, and they have never complained or felt insulted.

I went to Sandy Park with a Canadian friend who is descended from First Nation's peoples and he really enjoyed the atmosphere (and their thrashing of Bath!), and said he wanted to go again when next back in the UK. (I will only take him when they are not playing us in the future.) He was quite amused by the way the Chiefs had adapted the Indian dress and war chant etc. And his daughter and son certainly enjoyed having their photos taken with Big Chief. That will not happen again now either!

Come on folks let us be a little more sensible and tolerant and bring changes to more important things in the World like fighting pandemics and providing clean drinking water for all. Now that is important.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

alibev
alibev
30 July, 2020 14:35
Shamelessly stolen from Planet Rugby

"The Sikhs were also one of the Empire's "warrior tribes" ... it's the exact same as being called Exeter Sikhs and having fans show up in brownface, wearing turbans and making stabby stabby motions with foam kirpans. "

gaz59
gaz59
30 July, 2020 14:40
Quote:
Dorset Boy
As Hasta says, the name is not the issue as the Exeter 1st team were known as the Chiefs for many, many years I believe. Chief as is main.
The branding of Chiefs as Native Americans was and is crass, so doing away with the mascot and headdresses is a step in the right direction.
If the club badge changed as part of that crass branding, then perhaps the board should have changed that too.

It was much more than crass. It was and remains commercial exploitation with zero regard to Native Americans

As others have said. They should consult an appropriate, representative group and if they still use the logo then pay a proportionate annual fee

John Tee
John Tee
30 July, 2020 18:33
Quote:
gaz59
Quote:
Dorset Boy
As Hasta says, the name is not the issue as the Exeter 1st team were known as the Chiefs for many, many years I believe. Chief as is main.
The branding of Chiefs as Native Americans was and is crass, so doing away with the mascot and headdresses is a step in the right direction.
If the club badge changed as part of that crass branding, then perhaps the board should have changed that too.

It was much more than crass. It was and remains commercial exploitation with zero regard to Native Americans

As others have said. They should consult an appropriate, representative group and if they still use the logo then pay a proportionate annual fee

Pay who...?? the most you'd be able to achieve is subscribe to a charity but since the connection is very tenuous anyway and all you've got a common name because there is no malice, the notion is ridiculous...

Unless you are saying this whole thing is about a pay off at some point...??

Banachek
Banachek
30 July, 2020 18:40
Quote:
Bathovalballer
Spot on Ali. No one can say or do anything these days without somebody bleating that is offensive or goes against that persons or country's human rights or some such. Look at comedy programs being banned for taking the rise out of someone, with caricatures that are obviously figures of fun, not insulting, and not the actors trying to cause offense. Far from it. Otherwise, soap operas like Eastenders should be banned for portraying people living in the East End of London. All those cockneys should be up in arms if people actually lived and behaved like some characters are portrayed.
There are far more important issues and actual conflicts which really do harm in this World which get forgotten about or swept under the carpet.

If anyone bothered to read what the Exe board said, they referred to the long standing British and Devon peoples' traditions of calling leaders or groups Chiefs. They are not and have not ever wanted to insult or offend anybody. In fact, their playing staff and some supporters come from all over the World, including black and asian players, and they have never complained or felt insulted.

I went to Sandy Park with a Canadian friend who is descended from First Nation's peoples and he really enjoyed the atmosphere (and their thrashing of Bath!), and said he wanted to go again when next back in the UK. (I will only take him when they are not playing us in the future.) He was quite amused by the way the Chiefs had adapted the Indian dress and war chant etc. And his daughter and son certainly enjoyed having their photos taken with Big Chief. That will not happen again now either!

Come on folks let us be a little more sensible and tolerant and bring changes to more important things in the World like fighting pandemics and providing clean drinking water for all. Now that is important.

This absolutely spot on (Sm128), my family were born and breed in the eastend of London, I left at 25 , My mum said from the first few episodes what a load of codswallop and never watched it again.
Was she "offended" by the way eastenders were and are being portrayed ...absolutely not, does any "cockney" I know ( and I know a lot) give a Richard the III'rd ...no.

Unless what is "appropriated" is done in a deliberate derogatory or malicious way what's the problem Sorry but all this WOKE twaddle about cultural appropriation is just tedious nonsense.(Sm119)

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
30 July, 2020 18:42
"It was much more than crass. It was and remains commercial exploitation with zero regard to Native Americans

As others have said. They should consult an appropriate, representative group and if they still use the logo then pay a proportionate annual fee"

When people dress up as country yokels and go Oo Argh, or when people dress up as Welshmen in leeks etc, should all those yokels and Welsh in the population receive a proportionate fee? What a completely barm pot suggestion.

Where would it all end?

Come on people lighten up a bit. My native American friend and his family would love to receive his 'fee' but he is not holding his breath. There are much more important issues that need addressing than this.



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

John Tee
John Tee
30 July, 2020 18:52
My dog is sometimes called a bear by young kids.
He awaits his royalty cheque from Bristol...

Barnoid
Barnoid
30 July, 2020 19:23
I can't get my head around this response: either they accept it's a problem so they put their hands up, apologise for any hurt caused, remove all the Native American imagery and references, re-purpose the Chiefs name some how and move on, or they think it's OK so stick it out and change nothing.

Instead they've kind-of admitted that they think they're in the wrong, so will retire the mascot, but the logo and other paraphernalia somehow magically aren't as bad, are a bit difficult to change, or just don't count for whatever reason? Maybe they were hoping they could keep both sides happy? Fair to say that doesn't seem to have worked. It's all a bit a shambles really. Not something I'm used to saying about them.

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
30 July, 2020 22:08
Quote:
Ali1969
Where do we draw the line - Did Exeter rugby club when it adopted the name Chiefs go out to offend and ridicule the Native American population - NO. Did Northampton when the club adorned the Saints go out to ridicule and offend ecclesiastical establishments or religions?

With respect you're comparing apples and oranges. "Saints" has to do with the foundation of the club. "Chiefs" is nothing but cultural apropriation for marketing purposes. It has b*gger all to do with honouring Native American and everything to do with creating a fun environment for their supporters to play dress-up and for the ones who struggle with the words to "Exeter, Exeter, Exeter" to do the tomahawk chop.

TomReagan
TomReagan
30 July, 2020 22:14
If I had to come off the fence I'd probably oppose the logo, branding etc but there are good counter-arguments. I don't hold with two common responses though. Caricaturing Cockneys as barrow boys, people from the West Country as yokels etc isn't comparable with depicting Native Americans as savages from a 1950's western as we've not been exploited and suffered genocide because of our values, beliefs etc. Also fair to say that such clumsy stereotyping of 'us' yokels and Cockney geezers isn't harmful because we're not facing widespread ignorance about who we are. I also completely agree that there are more important issues to tackle concerning many issues, including racism, but that shouldn't mean that comparably less critical problems should be ignored. History, much of it quite recent, is riddled with examples of clumsy stereotyping that we now find incredibly crass and offensive. Who's to say that in 20 years' time people won't be saying the same about this issue?

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
31 July, 2020 09:12
Quote:
Barnoid
I can't get my head around this response: either they accept it's a problem so they put their hands up, apologise for any hurt caused, remove all the Native American imagery and references, re-purpose the Chiefs name some how and move on, or they think it's OK so stick it out and change nothing.
Instead they've kind-of admitted that they think they're in the wrong, so will retire the mascot, but the logo and other paraphernalia somehow magically aren't as bad, are a bit difficult to change, or just don't count for whatever reason? Maybe they were hoping they could keep both sides happy? Fair to say that doesn't seem to have worked. It's all a bit a shambles really. Not something I'm used to saying about them.

Getting the imagery representative of the actual native american is key according to the National Congress of American Indians:

[twitter.com]

[twitter.com]

"Today is a day for all Native people to celebrate. We thank the generations of tribal nations, leaders, and activists who worked for decades to make this day possible. We commend the Washington NFL team for eliminating a brand that disrespected, demeaned, and stereotyped all Native people, and we call on all other sports teams and corporate brands to retire all caricatures of Native Americans that they use as their mascots. We are not mascots -- we are Native people, citizens of more than 500 tribal nations who have stood strong for millennia and overcome countless challenges to reach this pivotal moment in time when we can help transform America into the just, equitable, and compassionate country our children deserve."



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

Lastofthemohawks
Lastofthemohawks
31 July, 2020 09:17
Hi Guys

Sorry I don't often post on other teams boards but the one thing I find hard about this is when somebody tells us how offended other people are. Even the people this is really supposed to upset have very differing views. Please see the clip below from some interviews made on a reservation about branding etc. Being out raged for other people who may not be out raged is a strange take on things. You decide how seriously offended these people would be about a rugby club in Devon being called the chiefs and using a tribal chiefs head as a badge when they don't have an issue with American branding?


[youtu.be]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
31 July, 2020 09:20
I agree Matt, completely and utterly, however, I'm a bit confused by the National Congress of American Indians logo. How different is it?

https://i.ibb.co/PtCtTHJ/chiefs.png

I do realise there are offensive addons.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/07/2020 09:32 by shipwrecked.

SJS
SJS
31 July, 2020 09:24
Quote:
Bathovalballer
"It was much more than crass. It was and remains commercial exploitation with zero regard to Native Americans
As others have said. They should consult an appropriate, representative group and if they still use the logo then pay a proportionate annual fee"

When people dress up as country yokels and go Oo Argh, or when people dress up as Welshmen in leeks etc, should all those yokels and Welsh in the population receive a proportionate fee? What a completely barm pot suggestion.

Where would it all end?

Come on people lighten up a bit. My native American friend and his family would love to receive his 'fee' but he is not holding his breath. There are much more important issues that need addressing than this.

The two points are completely different.

Native Americans were subjected to a systematic genocide during the formation of the United States and still suffer attempts at cultural eradication even today.

They have been oppressed since European settlers landed in America, suffer massive social and economic inequalities and the 'reservations' house some of the poorest and most disenfranchised people in the USA.

Whilst it might also be argued that the Welsh culture was also subjected to attempts to suppress it over the years, it's mostly Welsh supporters who dress up as daffs and leeks.

It is not only insensitive, but simply crass and exploitative for Exeter to use the cultural signifiers of Native Americans without consulting with representatives of that culture.

A couple examples from that Nick Mullins tweet thread included a bar called the 'Pow Wow' and the Cowboy Canteen.

If it had been done respectfully and with the necessary input from those affected, then fine. But it hasn't been.

Quote:
..but wearing war paint and making what they perceive to be traditional are Indian noises is the equivalent of “blacking up” neither should be tolerated in this day and age.

Exactly.

And, frankly, if you can't seen the problem with this, then you are part of the problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/07/2020 09:25 by SJS.

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 09:51
Quote:
Lastofthemohawks
Hi Guys
Sorry I don't often post on other teams boards but the one thing I find hard about this is when somebody tells us how offended other people are. Even the people this is really supposed to upset have very differing views. Please see the clip below from some interviews made on a reservation about branding etc. Being out raged for other people who may not be out raged is a strange take on things. You decide how seriously offended these people would be about a rugby club in Devon being called the chiefs and using a tribal chiefs head as a badge when they don't have an issue with American branding?


[youtu.be]
Given we're discussing your club you have every right to come on this board with your view and it's one many posters here share. I don't, but no worries. My response to that is that there were doubtless black people in the 70's who weren't overly concerned by the Band W Minstrels, or girls in the 1960's who willingly participated in lessons on how to make coffee and clean, but many would have been angry and most people look at such examples today and wonder how they were allowed. The concensus view from those who really matter, the Native Americans themselves, seems to be that they want rid of such caricatures..

MESSAGES->author
Boldeagle
31 July, 2020 09:56
Everyone has different views on this, here is a video of how the Native Americans feel about it.
[youtu.be]

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
31 July, 2020 09:57
Yes your right Tom, and that point actually answers my own point above, If the Native Americans themselves can't use their own imagery then who can. I should have thought about it more, it just seemed the juxtaposition was contradictory at the time.



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

Bathovalballer
Bathovalballer
31 July, 2020 10:00
What about the English invading Scotland and Ireland and suppressing and exploiting their peoples? Remember the Irish potato famines and the clearances in Scotland. Should we now be compensating them as well?



Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.

The Jink Joseph.

Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni

SJS
SJS
31 July, 2020 10:06
Quote:
Bathovalballer
What about the English invading Scotland and Ireland and suppressing and exploiting their peoples? Remember the Irish potato famines and the clearances in Scotland. Should we now be compensating them as well?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/07/2020 10:06 by SJS.

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
31 July, 2020 10:09
Quote:
Bathovalballer
What about the English invading Scotland and Ireland and suppressing and exploiting their peoples? Remember the Irish potato famines and the clearances in Scotland. Should we now be compensating them as well?

This isn't a debate about whether people have been exploited throughout history BOB, its whether in 2020 it is appropriate to have a mascots which plays to historic stereotypes of an oppressed group of people. Exeter have made the correct decision IMO to get rid of the mascot.

LOTM it seems to me from a distance that it wasn't the (serious) branding, but the mockery - which has now been dispensed of?

In terms of the fans, I personally wouldn't go to a match wearing war paint and waving a tomahawk if I were a Chiefs fan, just am I'm sure that some will just to give the V's to anyone who they consider to be overly PC / 'snowflakes' (which seems to be a 'get out of jail free' card for anyone with a view others find unpleasant).



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
31 July, 2020 10:11
Hmm its pretty easy tp predict the responses on this thread it might as well be the statues one..

K-Nut
Bod
31 July, 2020 11:12
It's not my problem if someone else decides to TAKE offence and I don't. It is a problem if someone sticks their face in mine and tells me what I should and shouldn't be offended by.

You're free to argue otherwise which is a wonderful liberty. Don't infringe on mine or others' whose life experiences have allowed different perspectives and wider references to think otherwise.

I also think, across the realms of this planet there are far more sinister and important contemporary topics you could spend your time and effort trying to publicise and change if evangelical causes and campaigns are your thing.

Choose your objectives in life wisely.Don't waste your time. We're all a long time dead.

That's my take.
(Sm72)

BathMatt53
BathMatt53
31 July, 2020 11:44
Quote:
Bod

I also think, across the realms of this planet there are far more sinister and important contemporary topics you could spend your time and effort trying to publicise and change if evangelical causes and campaigns are your thing.

(Sm72)

TBH this (by which I mean the general discussion) is right up there on the list of 'important topics' - or at least should be...

Besides, it is possible to feel strongly about more than 1 topic at once, some of which may be considered trivial (this isn't one of them) and others global issues. What else is there to talek about whilst drinking a few pints once you have covered rugby (there isn't much), holidays (there aren't many) and our old sports injuries (don't get me started, I'll be there all night).



[Actively seeking a new adoptee: until I'm assigned one I'm going for Joshua Matavesi]

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 12:39
Quote:
Bod
It's not my problem if someone else decides to TAKE offence and I don't. It is a problem if someone sticks their face in mine and tells me what I should and shouldn't be offended by.
You're free to argue otherwise which is a wonderful liberty. Don't infringe on mine or others' whose life experiences have allowed different perspectives and wider references to think otherwise.

I also think, across the realms of this planet there are far more sinister and important contemporary topics you could spend your time and effort trying to publicise and change if evangelical causes and campaigns are your thing.

Choose your objectives in life wisely.Don't waste your time. We're all a long time dead.

That's my take.
(Sm72)
Who's infringing on your liberty by offering a different argument? If you're offended by people wanting what they deem as offensive symbols withdrawn, that's up to you, but the arguments for doing so are valid. There has to be some form of concensus. Most people think swearing loudly on buses or spitting are anti social for example. Clearly a significant minority don't have an issue with either, so should I accept that such behaviour is fine? Is it OK to dress in an SS uniform to go to a fancy dress party or a bit tasteless and inensitive? No doubt lots of people who owned B and B's in the 1950's thought it was their right to decide not to admit blacks or Irish people. I don't get the argument that everything should be accepted just because SOME people don't have a problem with it. That's how we move forward, by examining what we do and changing, in all walks of life. Your post suggests that anyone challenging issues is an evangelist do gooder. I know you regularly talk of issues like poverty in Africa and, if I recall correctly, have taken direct action to help. Plenty of people who take exception to things like Colston's statue and cultural mis-appropriation do more than just look for 'trivial' things to be upset by, which you're implying. You have to challenge thinking as well as take practical measures.

Never In Doubt
Never In Doubt
31 July, 2020 12:48
It's hilarious how people get so angry about others 'taking' offence and yet seem irate about the opinions of the chatterati etc infringing on their liberty.

Irony or hypocrisy .... it is hard to tell. Seemingly respecting others opinions is an ask too far in posts. After all, I might find some of the dogwhistling on here pretty repulsive and designed to attract attention but do my best not to point it out on every thread!

MESSAGES->author
woodpecker
31 July, 2020 12:50
My opinion on this is I dont really have one. There are many things I can get energised about. This isn't one of them.

However as I've said, middle aged men dressing up and making stupid noises at the Rec, annoys me.

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
31 July, 2020 13:01
Quote:
alibev
Shamelessly stolen from Planet Rugby
"The Sikhs were also one of the Empire's "warrior tribes" ... it's the exact same as being called Exeter Sikhs and having fans show up in brownface, wearing turbans and making stabby stabby motions with foam kirpans. "

+1

John Tee
John Tee
31 July, 2020 13:19
The whole concept of this thread is lame and that isnt a criticism of the OP who raised it, it is an indictment of so called white guilt.

I seriously doubt the Chiefs gave it a second thought about the moniker initially but have decided the mascot can now go.
Ok, job done.

Now, if you want to make a real difference why dont we rally against expolitations by China, India, you name it, and include sweat shops all over etc etc ..

Nope, not so easy targets so concentrate on a mascot instead..

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 13:38
Forgive my white guilt but all I've done is try and understand why the issue is in the news, form an opinion on it and express it on a forum that is basically a talking shop. I've not demonstrated outside Sandy Park. For what it's worth I'll repeat an argument that several posters have already stated-you can have a view on more than one issue. I'll repeat another obvious point-some things are easier to influence. If our govt, with much support, can't do anything to stop the Chinese govt's behaviour in HK or its people continuing to shop at wet markets, I suspect my influence might be negligible. Incidentally, for the above reasons (and my love of dogs) I am attempting to boycott Chinese-made goods albeit I'm aware that many non Chinese items have Chinese components. Woodpecker said he didn't have a strong opinion either way which I can fully understand, but being told by certain posters that it's all froth and bother when, I'll hazard a guess, they aren't too clued up on Native American views and culture, makes little difference to me.

opti
Optimist
31 July, 2020 13:42
Quote:
John Tee
Now, if you want to make a real difference why dont we rally against expolitations by China, India, you name it, and include sweat shops all over etc etc .. Nope, not so easy targets so concentrate on a mascot instead..

No - in the scheme of things, the Exeter branding isn't top of the list. Yes - in the scheme of things there are a hundred very much more disturbing, vexing and important things going on in the world.

But, if your light-bulb blows out, you don't say to yourself, 'No point in changing that, my roof needs replacing anyway'.

If something is easy to fix, you fix it. And the Exeter thing is very easy to fix.

And why do you assume that people aren't doing what they can to address more complicated issues?

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 13:47
Quote:
Optimist
No - in the scheme of things, the Exeter branding isn't top of the list. Yes - in the scheme of things there are a hundred very much more disturbing, vexing and important things going on in the world.

But, if your light-bulb blows out, you don't say to yourself, 'No point in changing that, my roof needs replacing anyway'.

If something is easy to fix, you fix it. And the Exeter thing is very easy to fix.

And why do you assume that people aren't doing what they can to address more complicated issues?
+1

MESSAGES->author
shipwrecked
31 July, 2020 13:53
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
John Tee
Now, if you want to make a real difference why dont we rally against expolitations by China, India, you name it, and include sweat shops all over etc etc .. Nope, not so easy targets so concentrate on a mascot instead..

No - in the scheme of things, the Exeter branding isn't top of the list. Yes - in the scheme of things there are a hundred very much more disturbing, vexing and important things going on in the world.

But, if your light-bulb blows out, you don't say to yourself, 'No point in changing that, my roof needs replacing anyway'.

If something is easy to fix, you fix it. And the Exeter thing is very easy to fix.

And why do you assume that people aren't doing what they can to address more complicated issues?

+2



https://i.ibb.co/gjWyP09/Unknown-1-2.jpg


Beno Obano Age 25 years, Loosehead prop, 5ft 8ins 18st 12lbs 'Mauls are like Transformers' they change form to become more powerful!

John Tee
John Tee
31 July, 2020 14:09
Quote:
Optimist
Quote:
John Tee
Now, if you want to make a real difference why dont we rally against expolitations by China, India, you name it, and include sweat shops all over etc etc .. Nope, not so easy targets so concentrate on a mascot instead..

No - in the scheme of things, the Exeter branding isn't top of the list. Yes - in the scheme of things there are a hundred very much more disturbing, vexing and important things going on in the world.

But, if your light-bulb blows out, you don't say to yourself, 'No point in changing that, my roof needs replacing anyway'.

If something is easy to fix, you fix it. And the Exeter thing is very easy to fix.

And why do you assume that people aren't doing what they can to address more complicated issues?

Getting all bent by a mascot is one but good to know that some people are at least informed about what they buy and have a degree of preference over that.

I just dont see many threads about current 'slavery' in the world but i see a movement about police brutality and morphing into people tearing down statues of people involved in the past.
So yep, i think perspective is all over the place.
Id be surpised if there was a cohesive agenda anyway.....or not one understood by the masses.

MESSAGES->author
Saint.Kenneth
31 July, 2020 15:19
Quote:
Ali1969
Did Northampton when the club adorned the Saints go out to ridicule and offend ecclesiastical establishments or religions? NO.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said Ali but of all the clubs to choose as an example, you picked the wrong one! As Old Marvonian alluded, The Saints are basically a church side. We were formed by Rev. Samuel Wathan Wigg of the St. James’ Church, in the St James’ region of Northampton, hence why we are known as the Saints and sometimes referred to by older supporters as the Jimmies.

My view on Exeter Chiefs..... with Devon having such a rich history, the branding right from the start was ridiculous.

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
31 July, 2020 15:37
Quote:
John Tee
... blah...

The guy who thought (thinks?) that Saracens offences were serious enough that there should have been a league boycot of them thinks a bit of "blackface" is ok because there are other more important issues ... ho-hum.

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 15:37
Quote:
John Tee

Getting all bent by a mascot is one but good to know that some people are at least informed about what they buy and have a degree of preference over that.

I just dont see many threads about current 'slavery' in the world but i see a movement about police brutality and morphing into people tearing down statues of people involved in the past.
So yep, i think perspective is all over the place.
Id be surpised if there was a cohesive agenda anyway.....or not one understood by the masses.
I fully agree that a sense of perspective is very important and I wouldn't, for example, wish to create an argument with a Chiefs fan visiting the Rec in their fancy dress (although that chant is, as Woodpecker said, annoying). Opinions expressed on this thread have largely been respectful and pretty much everyone has acknowledged that it's not the most important issue in the world, but it's a divisive one and worthy of discussion and consideration. That's all!

John Tee
John Tee
31 July, 2020 17:15
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
John Tee
... blah...

The guy who thought (thinks?) that Saracens offences were serious enough that there should have been a league boycot of them thinks a bit of "blackface" is ok because there are other more important issues ... ho-hum.

You still dont get that you cheated and which in sporting terms is the lowest of the low.

I never mentioned blackface either but i did say the moniker was lame. If the Chiefs did it to have a pop at indigenous amercians I would think differently but i dont believe they did for a minute.
Saracens on the other hand, well, where to start ....
The cap...systematically cheated over years which bought you trophies and titles.

Have you actually looked up the origin of your club name and your Fezz connotations ...
I agree that is lame too so not overly concerned, ...but the cheating is low and your club is discraced by it.

In the wider scheme of the world, not so much but in sport, you dont get much more rock bottom.

John Tee
John Tee
31 July, 2020 17:19
Quote:
TomReagan
Quote:
John Tee

Getting all bent by a mascot is one but good to know that some people are at least informed about what they buy and have a degree of preference over that.

I just dont see many threads about current 'slavery' in the world but i see a movement about police brutality and morphing into people tearing down statues of people involved in the past.
So yep, i think perspective is all over the place.
Id be surpised if there was a cohesive agenda anyway.....or not one understood by the masses.
I fully agree that a sense of perspective is very important and I wouldn't, for example, wish to create an argument with a Chiefs fan visiting the Rec in their fancy dress (although that chant is, as Woodpecker said, annoying). Opinions expressed on this thread have largely been respectful and pretty much everyone has acknowledged that it's not the most important issue in the world, but it's a divisive one and worthy of discussion and consideration. That's all!

Thats fine, Tom, i get more wound up about continuing slavery in the world today.

As you say, threads are discussion points and there isnt much rugby going on...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/07/2020 17:20 by John Tee.

warrenball
warrenball
31 July, 2020 17:48
I think we have two sides, one considering every comment with a view to finding some perceived minority bashing, the other who feels that it is almost impossible to say anything these days without exhaustive checks to see if we are upsetting someone and the terminology of some of these groups changes so frequently it is difficult for people not directly involved in these matters to know what you can say.

It leads to more and more to people not expressing their real opinion for fear of being called sexist, racist or any one of the multitude of other slurs.

It does not change people's opinion, they are just unwilling to express it and can lead to members of the white majority feeling they are becoming marginalised.

No doubt there are native Americans who would not give a toss about the chants of a small group of spectators watching a minority sport. Others, maybe more political, would find this offensive, the question is where you draw the line.

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 18:46
I can agree with that to a degree Warrenball, but think that many people, including most posters in this thread, do try and recognise that their view doesn't have to be imposed on others and they do acknowledge it's a complex issue. I don't think it's as simple as there just being two extreme elements with no middle ground. With the Colston's statue argument for example, there will have been plenty of people who wanted the statue removed but weren't happy with how it was done. As to the silent white majority feeling they're being subdued by 'political correctness', I suppose the obvious retort to that is that there are far worse forms of subjugation experienced by people who aren't in that majority. I do have concerns over it though. Where there is a perception that too much attention is being paid to certain 'minority' issues it can provoke entrenched attitudes and even be exploited by the far right, so there has to be some common sense and understanding on all sides. (Think that's me done on this thread now!)

K-Nut
Bod
31 July, 2020 19:42
Quote:
TomReagan
Quote:
Bod
It's not my problem if someone else decides to TAKE offence and I don't. It is a problem if someone sticks their face in mine and tells me what I should and shouldn't be offended by.
You're free to argue otherwise which is a wonderful liberty. Don't infringe on mine or others' whose life experiences have allowed different perspectives and wider references to think otherwise.

I also think, across the realms of this planet there are far more sinister and important contemporary topics you could spend your time and effort trying to publicise and change if evangelical causes and campaigns are your thing.

Choose your objectives in life wisely.Don't waste your time. We're all a long time dead.

That's my take.
(Sm72)
Who's infringing on your liberty by offering a different argument?

Nobody, where did I state that. Your flaring of nostrils seems to blind your comprehension of prose.

If you're offended by people wanting what they deem as offensive symbols withdrawn, that's up to you, but the arguments for doing so are valid.

I'm not offended by their opinion, please illustrate where I deny the right to opine. Your blanket conclusion on validity is clouded by your politics, not by logic.


There has to be some form of concensus.

That's dictatorial sentiment, and its "consensus"


Most people think swearing loudly on buses or spitting are anti social for example.

I've just returned on a bus trip to Bath and back to support the local pubs of the city for few hours. I didn't experience much swearing or spitting on the vehicle either outward or return since the face protections seem to inhibit such actions or expressions. You should use the bus more and try to conflate better.


Clearly a significant minority don't have an issue with either, so should I accept that such behaviour is fine?

I've had a public brockling from CC and 3 messages of support via DM over the course of the day. Conclude what you wish.


Is it OK to dress in an SS uniform to go to a fancy dress party or a bit tasteless and inensitive?

I don't attend the fancy dress parties you might be invited to. What's sensitivity got to do with it unless you're feeling fragile?


No doubt lots of people who owned B and B's in the 1950's thought it was their right to decide not to admit blacks or Irish people.

The doubt is attached to how prevalent such practices were? Abhorrent behaviour regardless that should have been loudly called out and prosecuted then . Somewhat like FGM now, it's known to happen on a worryingly frequent basis, but it's culturally awkward to pursue although your example is admittedly a lot less violent in these enlightened times.
Your attack on B&B provision might not sit well with the editorial team


I don't get the argument that everything should be accepted just because SOME people don't have a problem with it.

Which argument is this? I'm offering that tolerance should be shown to a vocally agitated minority which seems to illustrate your position.


That's how we move forward, by examining what we do and changing, in all walks of life.

That's your manifesto, it's not a universal truth.



Your post suggests that anyone challenging issues is an evangelist do gooder.

Suggests from your interpretation perhaps.
I offer my POV and if anyone wants to shoot that down then fine. That's why I went out this afternoon for a few jars. To see a few folks and shoot the breeze across a good few topics. The debate and verbal jousting was fun. You'd probably enjoy it.


I know you regularly talk of issues like poverty in Africa and, if I recall correctly, have taken direct action to help. Plenty of people who take exception to things like Colston's statue and cultural mis-appropriation do more than just look for 'trivial' things to be upset by, which you're implying.


I don't talk about Poverty in Africa. We have businesses there generating sustainable employment and earning everyone across the employment chain an ongoing living. I'm the only non-African employee. I'm their token attempt at an inclusion and diversity policy.......... winking smiley
Sustainable employment an absolute novelty in Sub Sahara Africa for the majority.

I'll talk to you all day long about the selfish racist policies of developed countries that inhibit commercial development across the continent, that also explains why so many desperate young aspirational souls migrate northwards. From the many conversations I've had, an honest living from a fair an honest employment is all they wish for, like most of us.........................I'm stopping here since I'll switch into rant mode


You have to challenge thinking as well as take practical measures.

Indeed, something I agree with you. But don't allow doctrine to smother convivial discussion. There was a time when the flat-earth lobby prevailed most vehemently. I'm always happy to examine a rounder argument that's not based on dogma. It increasingly seems that one man's practical measure is another's rioting and looting.


That's my response. Cheers Tom!
(Sm3)

TomReagan
TomReagan
31 July, 2020 20:25
I can't face deconstructing every sentence of your post so will settle for a few observations. First of all, apologies for the spelling error--I won't be petty enough to point out any in your post. Secondly, I find it ironic that I'm accused of flaring my nostrils given I think the tone of my texts is far less aggressive/assertive than most of your postings. The bus nonsense, I live in Twerton and it's safe to say that the language can get a bit aggressive on occasions. Read the passage you quoted, by the way, and you'll see that I didn't say spitting on buses. The B and B reference-it was common practice in the 1950's and 60's. As to you shooting the breeze and I should try it... well, I'm tempted to guess the assumptions you make about me but can't face more scrutiny of 'my perceptions'. Suffice to say that I do go out to pubs but thanks for the lifestyle advice.
Cheers Bod.

K-Nut
Bod
31 July, 2020 21:39
Good on you Tom.
I don't assume anything. Assume makes an Ass of U and Me.
The problem with this text based process of interaction is there is little to mitigate the inclusion of tone, emotion, nuance, body language or rhythm of delivery, which, when exchanged across face to face debate allows a more lucid interpretation of motivation and perspective.

It was good to see the city busier than my previous visit, and even the open top tourist buses seem to have increasing numbers on board.

(Sm3)

MESSAGES->author
CoochieCoo
31 July, 2020 23:20
Quote:
Bod
Your attack on B&B provision might not sit well with the editorial team

What on earth are you insinuating now?



https://pbflaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mToRbTHGUTg0zWMi8LNeOlOmx4tZHsH3crYbASv0X_qWBw8j30S9KV-RiZIf_AWoOZXD7D3Rjy1tYRAKXykpZSHuOObVQBiovPpB6PnDUuBM6xlx2F1yOjKpEBmWUfMru3SCm255j3p-CnndC7J9ZUG29r1BtfFWHHj-MdzDOpzBuTRTPqNaco8ctf1svZyW0?width=106&height=160&cropmode=none
https://pbfkaa.by.files.1drv.com/y4mhxY1k8zrLn92LwcIYgSd1KcA6zBGX-Wgw2dNz8Us0xA71EhjMmL2tc-ggx7OlsBDECw8eAZ_oAWnNyh5doimzOEics5H87cuh5Q-Sb-ViPD6Pt6QUBneu5F2tlWLltGQZ8pd5qFmsZwbKB39L5Dki21gJfnsiaxLiCiuWPCZUjkXp4EttajzFAgcCl6YuDDF?width=160&height=107&cropmode=none

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
01 August, 2020 08:17
Quote:
John Tee
Saracens Wasps on the other hand, well, where to start ....
The cap...systematically cheated over years which bought you trophies and titles.

Corrected for you John and that's the real issue I have with you, your total hypocrisy.

I'm not disputing that Saracens were found to have cheated over a number of years and are being rightly punished.
I wish the cheating had been dealt with directly back in 2015 but I equally wish it had for the over half the clubs in the Premiership that have been ackowledged by former club DoRs to have been breaking the cap prior to that. Look at every time the cap has gone up since it's inception and it's been in reaction to rumours of it being broken by teams at the top struggling to fit players into its budget (that isn't a justification just a statement of how things have been)

The holier than thou stance, especially from a Wasps supporter, is hilarious though. Just as it was fun to listen to Dallaglio (The Gladstone of rugby in terms of his charitable donations to young Eatern European women and Bolivian farmers) on the ruck talking about how Saracens had obviously cheated because it's impossible to keep a squad like that in cap whilst seemingly ignorant of the team of Internationals that Wasps kept together for multiple seasons whilst they won silverware. Even if you chose to be naive enough to suggest Wasps are one of the clubs that have never broken the cap the clubs use of uncontested scrums to systematically cheat their opposition was a conerstone of their "Golden" years. A disgraceful tactic used up to and including in finals (like against Leicester) over numerous seasons. Exploited to such a degree that the Laws were changed to combat it. You can suggest it was either legit or "gamesmanship" rather than cheating but both of those ring pretty hollow especially as you'd struggle to find a single game that Wasps went to uncontested scrums whilst their scrum were dominant.

Quote:
John Tee
Have you actually looked up the origin of your club name and your Fezz connotations

I have and they are different to the way that "Chiefs" have behaved. The adoption of the Fez in the last decades is probably the closest to their behaviour. I'd have no issue with losing that and have never worn one myself.

warrenball
warrenball
01 August, 2020 09:00
OM, can you clarify your last paragraph, I do not understand your meaning?

MESSAGES->author
ouch!_that_hurts
01 August, 2020 10:57
This thread, like many on the subject, has taken a turn for the worse and gone completely off topic. However, as a Chiefs supporter who, I might add,

1 doesn't wear a war bonnet and buckskin (it would be terribly unfair on the bucks that had to give their lives to clothe one man) or, indeed, a replica shirt which I think is almost as bad!

2 carry a tomahawk of any material either to matches nor in my daily life,

3 rarely finds the need to take part in war chants, and

4 supports the change of branding,

I have the following comment:

When the branding was introduced, I'm sure it was seen solely as a marketing tool and something for people to identify with - just the same as Bristol's belated introduction of their 'Bears' identity (no matter how much it was un-needed). I doubt that anyone intended any offense by the imagery - at the time Cleveland Indians still had Chief Wahoo so our logo was positively respectful by comparison. However, times have changed and what was seen as OK 20 years ago is seen differently now so I agree it is time for a change. I also accept that for fairly obvious reasons (cost being one of them) change will not be instant but getting rid of Big Chief is a step in the right direction (I must admit, I was always slightly embarrassed by it and for the adults wanting their photo taken with him). Changing branding and people's behaviour may take longer ............. for example, are you going to ban people wearing an old shirt, baseball cap, etc. from the ground?

As a point of fact - and this is confirmed by my cousin who went to Florida State University, from whence they originated - the tomahawk chop and the war chant are two different things; I don't recall ever seeing anyone doing a tomahawk chop at Sandy Park. Interestingly enough, when the war chant started at FSU, it was said that the Seminole tribe's view was that it probably had a greater connection with John Wayne than any native American. And much as you all dislike it, it is at least different from 'Glaaaawster, Glaaaawster' and 'Come on you [insert team of choice]'

OldMarovian
OldMarovian
01 August, 2020 11:00
Which bit? My feeling is that Exeter Rugby being "Chiefs" is no problem at all. It's a part of their history that their first team where called the Chiefs. Until the last couple of decades it had nothing to do with Native Indian imagery though that is purely a marketing affection. They talk about it being respectful and honouring Native Americans but honsetly it just looks like exploitative commercialism to me.

I have not been and am not a Fezboy but for me that "dress-up" is on a similar level to Chiefs. Had we (they, Fezboys) chosen arabian type thawbes and robes to identify as Saracens would that be ok now? not for me so I'd have no issue with seeing it (Fez) go. I still feel it's less problematic that the apropriation/parody of American Indian culture by Exeter especially as it has nothing to do with the clubs history but appreciate both that its a question of degrees and that my own view is far from impartial.

Does that help?

SimonG19
SimonG19
01 August, 2020 12:28
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
John Tee
Saracens Wasps on the other hand, well, where to start ....
The cap...systematically cheated over years which bought you trophies and titles.

Corrected for you John and that's the real issue I have with you, your total hypocrisy.

I'm not disputing that Saracens were found to have cheated over a number of years and are being rightly punished.
I wish the cheating had been dealt with directly back in 2015 but I equally wish it had for the over half the clubs in the Premiership that have been ackowledged by former club DoRs to have been breaking the cap prior to that. Look at every time the cap has gone up since it's inception and it's been in reaction to rumours of it being broken by teams at the top struggling to fit players into its budget (that isn't a justification just a statement of how things have been)

The holier than thou stance, especially from a Wasps supporter, is hilarious though. Just as it was fun to listen to Dallaglio (The Gladstone of rugby in terms of his charitable donations to young Eatern European women and Bolivian farmers) on the ruck talking about how Saracens had obviously cheated because it's impossible to keep a squad like that in cap whilst seemingly ignorant of the team of Internationals that Wasps kept together for multiple seasons whilst they won silverware. Even if you chose to be naive enough to suggest Wasps are one of the clubs that have never broken the cap the clubs use of uncontested scrums to systematically cheat their opposition was a conerstone of their "Golden" years. A disgraceful tactic used up to and including in finals (like against Leicester) over numerous seasons. Exploited to such a degree that the Laws were changed to combat it. You can suggest it was either legit or "gamesmanship" rather than cheating but both of those ring pretty hollow especially as you'd struggle to find a single game that Wasps went to uncontested scrums whilst their scrum were dominant.

Quote:
John Tee
Have you actually looked up the origin of your club name and your Fezz connotations

I have and they are different to the way that "Chiefs" have behaved. The adoption of the Fez in the last decades is probably the closest to their behaviour. I'd have no issue with losing that and have never worn one myself.

Interesting how supporters of the Cheats are now slinging out unproven accusations about other clubs after all the years they complained about then unproven accusations about their cheating club.

Still it continues to highlight the fact that their club are proven cheats and it's good that that is kept in the public eye.

MESSAGES->author
hasta
01 August, 2020 15:44
Ok, we're well off topic now gents. Please keep this adjacent to Exeter Chiefs.

John Tee
John Tee
01 August, 2020 16:24
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
John Tee
Saracens Wasps on the other hand, well, where to start ....
The cap...systematically cheated over years which bought you trophies and titles.

Corrected for you John and that's the real issue I have with you, your total hypocrisy.

I'm not disputing that Saracens were found to have cheated over a number of years and are being rightly punished.
I wish the cheating had been dealt with directly back in 2015 but I equally wish it had for the over half the clubs in the Premiership that have been ackowledged by former club DoRs to have been breaking the cap prior to that. Look at every time the cap has gone up since it's inception and it's been in reaction to rumours of it being broken by teams at the top struggling to fit players into its budget (that isn't a justification just a statement of how things have been)

The holier than thou stance, especially from a Wasps supporter, is hilarious though. Just as it was fun to listen to Dallaglio (The Gladstone of rugby in terms of his charitable donations to young Eatern European women and Bolivian farmers) on the ruck talking about how Saracens had obviously cheated because it's impossible to keep a squad like that in cap whilst seemingly ignorant of the team of Internationals that Wasps kept together for multiple seasons whilst they won silverware. Even if you chose to be naive enough to suggest Wasps are one of the clubs that have never broken the cap the clubs use of uncontested scrums to systematically cheat their opposition was a conerstone of their "Golden" years. A disgraceful tactic used up to and including in finals (like against Leicester) over numerous seasons. Exploited to such a degree that the Laws were changed to combat it. You can suggest it was either legit or "gamesmanship" rather than cheating but both of those ring pretty hollow especially as you'd struggle to find a single game that Wasps went to uncontested scrums whilst their scrum were dominant.

Quote:
John Tee
Have you actually looked up the origin of your club name and your Fezz connotations

I have and they are different to the way that "Chiefs" have behaved. The adoption of the Fez in the last decades is probably the closest to their behaviour. I'd have no issue with losing that and have never worn one myself.

Im against cheating in sport, full stop. As i said, it is the lowest thing in sport, imv.
Any club that gets caught I'd welcome sanction. I think rugby is as much a cheats game on the field as any other so no pride there either. Despite insinuations about various clubs, im not aware anyone else got caught but if they do get caught throw the book at them...

Saracens fans were quite happy to hide behind 'innocent' until proven guilty so i assume you'll extend that same courtesy to other clubs.
Your big problem is that you got caught and you still dont like it.
But hey...you got away with it and apart from the stigma which will remain, the club will be back in the RPL soon.

Bath.
Apologies for the tangent, i wasnt the first one to mention Saracens, iirc


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