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Rory Duncan to Leave?
Discussion started by Three Pear supporter (IP Logged), 15 July, 2019 15:29
epsom
Three Pear supporter
15 July, 2019 15:29
FFS when are we going to have some stability

A38
A38
15 July, 2019 15:51

ROLLO on tour
ROLLO
15 July, 2019 16:05
This is rather unsettling news. Is it the clubs decisison or did they take it once Duncan had applied for the job? The only thing I know for certain is that Duncan and his family found the relgation scrap a strain.
I will be interetsed to hear the stratigic plan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/07/2019 16:10 by ROLLO .

MESSAGES->author
Fiver
15 July, 2019 16:19
Does it suggest that he's not happy with the club's recruitment if he found a relegation scrap too stressful?

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
15 July, 2019 16:20
Looks like I got this spot on.

I will reiterate "I still do not think we are in safe hands"

I would really like to know what has happened to the £13m to £20m (depends what paper you read) that we have received from CVC.

Didn't someone gather accounts info showing an income line of @£7.5m, where's the rest?

JP

MESSAGES->author
TeflonTed
15 July, 2019 16:56
Quote:-
ďA spokesman from Warriors said: ďThe club has put in place a strategic plan for the future of Warriors. We do not envisage Rory Duncan being part of those plans and, therefore, we have given Rory permission to seek opportunities elsewhere.Ē

How kind of the club to announce the news in that way, and with those words. Particularly having been full of praise for the chap a few weeks ago.

Seems rather shabby to me.

gmem
Garym
15 July, 2019 17:00
Could explain FHís comment on Instagram when he said it was a frustrating start to pre-season

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
15 July, 2019 17:23
It's shabby because it is childlike and vindictive probably due to Rory expressing an interest in moving on and rejecting a proposed deal by the club(I'll gamble, my opinion only, it is related to recruitment or substantially lack of.

No matter the words from above.

JP



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/07/2019 18:53 by Faithful_City.

WorcesterSauce
WorcesterSauce
15 July, 2019 18:03
Same old same old

FlipFlop
FlipFlop
15 July, 2019 19:01
The pull of Home may be in his decision too after Pro 14 and now a season in Prem. We seemed generally okay when GG left to go home via a 3 year contract with US. It is difficult to know in what way the team has Duncanís stamp on it though, even after a season.

Wonder if the wee Ulsterman will now step up?

A strategic plan based on a late 60ís / early 70ís DoR and no Head Coach.Hmmm. Doesnít seem cunning or long term based on current info.

ROLLO on tour
ROLLO
15 July, 2019 19:07
If you read the BBC sports news then it may be that the club have had to act in this way through no fault of their own.
It states that Duncan is still a staff member and contacted until the end of this season. May we expect some compensation? He does of course still have to get the job.
Is it just possible that we have been treated badley by both Ryan and Duncan ?

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
15 July, 2019 19:16
Or have they been badly treated along with

Brain
Keast
Griffiths
Ruddock
Hill

Who were not treated the best either

JP

ROLLO on tour
ROLLO
15 July, 2019 19:22
JP Keast and Griffiths went because a certain Captain said so. Brain was poorly treated, Ruddock didn't cut the mustard and neither IMHO did Hill.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
15 July, 2019 19:43
Keastie did not leave because of any captain.

Hill was badly treated supported financially no wonder he didn't "cut the mustard"

We do not have a good record for supporting our coaches. If they don't cut the mustard who is at fault them or thier line managers?

Investment in people means exactly that.

JP

Sheldon
Sheldon
15 July, 2019 20:18
If he doesn't leave very soon then the preseason and early season are going to be somewhat difficult. It is my guess that things will develop quickly and there will be some further announcements during the preseason

Bevere Warrior
Bevere Warrior
15 July, 2019 21:14
I donít understand this club. We are told that Duncan and his family are settled and enjoying Worcester. Then the owners speak highly of him and we are told how lucky we are to have him. Solly is then recently given a new contract and even then the owners make reference to Duncan potentially succeeding him (Albeit confirming this was not an agreed plan).
Two minutes later heís on the way out the door??
Itís the same story all the time, always seems like there is issues and negativity bubbling under the surface.

Offa
Offa
15 July, 2019 21:38
This is so frustrating.
I really thought that we would ruffle some feathers this season. And now it appears we will be on the back foot before pre-season has even got underway.

WarriorsMisfit
WarriorsMisfit
15 July, 2019 21:51
As ever, there's the doom and gloom guesswork. Alternative guesswork: RD sees himself as a DoR in near future - which would likely be less stressful on a day to day basis than Head Coach. Age of AS made him think in with a good shot in near future. AS extension and club "not sure who after AS" plus interest from elsewhere has led to him asking permission to talk so he can climb the ladder, disappointing club who thought he was in for the ride.

I'm a new account, but I've followed Wuss and this board for enough years to know - we don't know 5% of the details, never will, nor have we any right or reasonable expectation to. Guessing and assuming tragedy when we'll never know for sure is pointless and an act of self harm.

This isn't the falling then climbing of snakes and ladders. There is no end. Its just a path we keep going along, whether there are obstacles and forks ahead or rose petals underfoot. We are where we are and what's passed is passed. Better to look ahead.

Warrior1988
BromsgroveBeat87
15 July, 2019 22:09
I've heard that he hasn't lived up to expectations and they are happy to let go if an offer comes. I think he was partly at fault for the lineout struggles.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
15 July, 2019 22:14
This pretty much says thanks and good bye no is or buts here

Quote:
Warriors

ďThe club has put in place a strategic plan for the future of Warriors,Ē a club spokesman said to Worcester News.

ďWe do not envisage Rory Duncan being part of those plans and, therefore, we have given Rory permission to seek opportunities elsewhere.Ē


JP

Latecomer
Latecomer
15 July, 2019 22:14
Quote:
WarriorsMisfit
As ever, there's the doom and gloom guesswork. Alternative guesswork: RD sees himself as a DoR in near future - which would likely be less stressful on a day to day basis than Head Coach. Age of AS made him think in with a good shot in near future. AS extension and club "not sure who after AS" plus interest from elsewhere has led to him asking permission to talk so he can climb the ladder, disappointing club who thought he was in for the ride.
I'm a new account, but I've followed Wuss and this board for enough years to know - we don't know 5% of the details, never will, nor have we any right or reasonable expectation to. Guessing and assuming tragedy when we'll never know for sure is pointless and an act of self harm.

This isn't the falling then climbing of snakes and ladders. There is no end. Its just a path we keep going along, whether there are obstacles and forks ahead or rose petals underfoot. We are where we are and what's passed is passed. Better to look ahead.

Misfit, a refreshingly philosophical post (for this forum anyway) ....

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
16 July, 2019 06:53
If Duncan does not get the Kings job is it then possible for him to continue here when he has clearly shown he doesn't want to be here.

JP

Whispering_Death
Whispering_Death
16 July, 2019 07:06
You can criticise the doom and gloom as much as you like, but it matters not whose decision this is, itís terrible timing and puts us on the back foot with yet another change of coaching setup. Continuity was the major positive I had going into the new season. The statement reads to me like heís going so either heís got the nod or we are releasing him whether he gets it or not. Perhaps we want someone who actually wants to be here and doesnít jump at the first opportunity that comes his way to leave.

Southstand(again)
Southstand(again)
16 July, 2019 07:34
We have a DOR who likes being at worcester
We have decent attack and defence coaches
We also also have a vey good scrum coach
All this ensures continuity
If Rory wishes to pursue his coaching career elsewhere I wish him well.
One thing we don't lack in the UK is capable forward coaches.

Ronster
Drahm for England
16 July, 2019 07:38
I for one will wait to see what comes out before passing judgement on who is to 'blame' here. FWIW, it's getting very boring seeing one or two on here always trying to stick the knife into the club to suit their own agenda when they have very little knowledge of what is actually going on behind the scenes at the club.

TVM Rides Again....Again
TVM Rides Again
16 July, 2019 07:50
It's not ideal from a stability PoV - though Southstand makes a good point, re the others.

The wording of the release seems very clumsy in the first instance - but it is very easy to transpose our worries onto another person, and believe they are driven by what drives us. In this case I am sure him being thrown under the bus because he spoke out about recruitment will convert itself from speculation to 'received wisdom' in due course through sheer repetition, becuase that's what happens round here.

However, in rugby as in life, we cannot possibly know what the nature of the information we are not privvy to is. It may be that he's been made a scapegoat, it may be that he wanted to go home. It may be that he was promised DoR and its not coming, it may be that he wasn't but he thought he was ready anyway.

It may be that Rory Duncan burnt his own bridges ont he way out in how he handled it. It may be that the club did.

It may well be absolutely none of the above.

We don't know. But I have also been around the block enough to know that people don't let facts or lack of them get in the way of the blame game. So it is what it is.


Though, it is my opinion, and only my opinion, that the forum should collectively reflect on its treatment of Ruddock and Hill, before accusing the club of mistreating them. Stones aand glass houses...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/07/2019 07:52 by TVM Rides Again.

kiddykid
kiddykid
16 July, 2019 08:22
On the Faithful City post........if he doesn't get the Kings role then I cannot see how he can return to Sixways for his last contracted season - so Rory has gone.
The owners told him that he is not part of their longer term plans so I am taking that as they have someone else in mind - but if that person(s) is already working elsewhere then it looks likely that we might spend a whole season without a Head Coach. Is that possible in the Prem? No. Ithink they have someone already lined up.
Either way, it destroys the widely held feeling that at last we were to have some continuity, which for me, gave us all genuine optimism for the coming season. How wrong can you be.
The revolving door at Sixways is alive and kicking!

Warriordad
Warriordad
16 July, 2019 11:54
Is Mike Ford available? Or is he still consulting at tigers? I'd take him.

Brummagem Bertie
Brummagem Bertie
16 July, 2019 12:08
I thought Ford was more of a backs/defence coach, both of which are covered?

Time to go out and get Deano? What's John Kingston doing?



Whatever you do, do it safely!

Southstand(again)
Southstand(again)
16 July, 2019 12:33
Toby Booth is available

Southstand(again)
Southstand(again)
16 July, 2019 12:41
John kingston is helping out at National 2 side Rams,
Probably a non-starter as we couldn't afford to feed him.
I still like my Toby Booth punt

gmem
Garym
16 July, 2019 13:29
Quote:
Brummagem Bertie
I thought Ford was more of a backs/defence coach, both of which are covered?
Time to go out and get Deano? What's John Kingston doing?

Definitely don't want deano - we would be getting more of the same. Apart from one fluke season at falcons he hasn't done much with pretty much the same budget as he would have with us

Devonianwarrior
Devonianwarrior
16 July, 2019 13:39
Like the Toby Booth punt.Didnt Gary Gold take him to Bath.

Southstand(again)
Southstand(again)
16 July, 2019 13:52
Big mates

MESSAGES->author
TeflonTed
16 July, 2019 15:56
Deano is defo staying oop north, (modern language usage,,,Geddit?)

According to press reports.

Asum Warrior
Asum Warrior
16 July, 2019 16:15
Deano is a DOR
Does very little coaching nowadays

However Steve Bates has become available in last few days.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/07/2019 16:17 by Asum Warrior.

MESSAGES->author
Fiver
16 July, 2019 17:14
Seeing as though AS signed a new contract, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it means we're bringing in one of his ex-colleagues.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
16 July, 2019 17:31
Duncan is one of his colleagues.

Maybe Cecil and the new owners have recruited a top drawer Coach, maybe

WarriorsMisfit
WarriorsMisfit
16 July, 2019 20:52
Quote:
Latecomer
Misfit, a refreshingly philosophical post (for this forum anyway) ....

Thank you. At some point in life I hope to reach something near the zen-like status Kane Williamson displayed in his press conference after the final on Sunday (well worth watching if you've not seen)

TVM Rides Again....Again
TVM Rides Again
17 July, 2019 08:09
New Zealand have been the dictionary definition of class.

MESSAGES->author
TeflonTed
17 July, 2019 12:05
Except that theyíd call it ďclissĒ.

Offa
Offa
17 July, 2019 12:47
Is Ben Ryan looking for a job?

epsom
Three Pear supporter
17 July, 2019 12:48
I started this thread off and have re read all the posts. I like to look at facts and substantiate what I say or write. Some of the comments are wild supposition and said with no foundation as far as I can see.

For whatever reason Rory Duncan looks like he is leaving. Lets move on.

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
17 July, 2019 13:18
I hadn't seen this thread until just now, so it wasn't on the back of me asking questions about coaches. I was told yesterday that we were keeping our coaching set up and back room staff.

Let's wait and see if this is correct

The person who told me ought to know and no I'm not mentioning names.

Offa
Offa
18 July, 2019 05:29
Quote:
Three Pear supporter
I started this thread off and have re read all the posts. I like to look at facts and substantiate what I say or write. Some of the comments are wild supposition and said with no foundation as far as I can see.
For whatever reason Rory Duncan looks like he is leaving. Lets move on.



But wild supposition and no foundation are the meat and drink of this board. It is the ideal place for venting, gnashing of teeth and wild guesswork. If you are after the reasoned debate of esrablished facts then the Trump Whitehouse may be the place to look. RD being given permission to talk to other teams is pretty major news.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
18 July, 2019 06:50
Not just being given permission to talk to other clubs.

Being told "you are not part of our future strategic plans", is pretty damning

JP

epsom
Three Pear supporter
18 July, 2019 11:24
Perhaps the press release was agreed by all parties?

JP as a supposed supporter of this club you seem to put the boot in at every opportunity.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
18 July, 2019 12:12
By copying and pasting a press release - is putting the boot in??? I didnít say he has no future the club did!

By praising Kitchís degree achievement - is putting the boot in??

JP

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
18 July, 2019 12:16
Standing up for our club i- is putting the boot in

Quote:

Even below LI

Saracens 11/10

Exeter 5/2

Gloucester 20/1

Northampton 25/1

Harlequins 25/1

Sale 33/1

Leicester 33/1

Bath 33/1

Wasps 33/1

Bristol 50/1

London Irish 150/1

Worcester 300/1

Jeeze doesnt it really pi55 you off before the first whistle has been blown!!!


MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
18 July, 2019 12:18
Please provide a bunch of all these opportunities I have put the boot in.

Southstand(again)
Southstand(again)
18 July, 2019 13:01
Quote:
Three Pear supporter
I started this thread off and have re read all the posts. I like to look at facts and substantiate what I say or write. Some of the comments are wild supposition and said with no foundation as far as I can see.
For whatever reason Rory Duncan looks like he is leaving. Lets move on.

sorry Three Pear I didn't realise this was a "Private thread" I will obviously PM any of my future posts to you for vetting prior to adding to threads.

Much as I enjoy the occasional wind up of JP I am beginning to suspect rather than a new poster you are little more than a pre-season troll (Sorry I should have pm'd you that bit for vetting)

MESSAGES->author
TeflonTed
18 July, 2019 16:34
Yep, heís giving Three Pears a bad name.

And JP can perfectly well stand his corner.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
18 July, 2019 16:57
Knees are getting a bit dodgy nowadays

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
19 July, 2019 12:46
Any more news on this?
Has it been announced on the offy or gone quiet?

TVM Rides Again....Again
TVM Rides Again
19 July, 2019 13:04
The wheels tend to turn slow on this sort of thing sadly.

Southstand(again)
Southstand(again)
19 July, 2019 14:26
Not sure whether we are allowed to speculate but word is De Villiers was asked to apply for the Southern Kings Job, and with positive discrimination already having been "aired" it may be that Duncan will have to throw his cap in the ring for the newly vacant Sharks position.

Either way he has got another year to run on his contract and I am sure he will do a good job for Solly if he's here for another season.

Sometimes individuals and their families just fail to settle thousands of miles from home.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
21 July, 2019 16:11
I wonder how this is playing out?

Has Duncan left?

Is Duncan leaving?

Can we get a head coach at short notice?

What effect is this all having on pre-season and of course next season as a whole?

Are we going for 12th place and stay up by dint of new 13 club closed shop?

A lot we can get our speculative heads into to stop the boredom...

JP

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
29 July, 2019 14:08
Quote:
Pablo Warrior
I hadn't seen this thread until just now, so it wasn't on the back of me asking questions about coaches. I was told yesterday that we were keeping our coaching set up and back room staff.
Let's wait and see if this is correct

The person who told me ought to know and no I'm not mentioning names.

Update from the Worcester Evening News

[www.worcesternews.co.uk]

Hopefully what I was told is correct then. I just re-read the Worcester News article and it sounds a bit vague....."A spokesman" could be anybody.

Nothing on the Warriors website, so maybe it was all guess work from our wonderful local journalists. I suppose they need something to fill their time
(Sm132)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/07/2019 14:26 by Pablo Warrior.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
29 July, 2019 16:37
Some people just spout guff

It was a club statement as reported by BBC News


Quote:
BBC News
Worcester Warriors have given head coach Rory Duncan permission to talk to other clubs.

South African side Southern Kings are reported to have the 41-year-old on a four-man shortlist, which prompted Warriors to release a club statement.

"The club has put in place a strategic plan for the future of Warriors," it said. "We do not envisage Rory Duncan being part of those plans.

"Therefore we've given Rory permission to seek opportunities elsewhere."


Having been earmarked as a potential long-term successor to Warriors director of rugby Alan Solomons, Duncan remains a Warriors staff member for now, as he is under contract until the end of next season.

Duncan was director of rugby with the South African Pro 14 side before he came to Sixways in May 2018.

Warriors finished 10th in the Premiership last season, above Leicester and relegated Newcastle, winning a club record nine of their 22 games.

That for me says the club did say it is not envisaged he will be part of the future strategic plan

JP

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
29 July, 2019 19:04
JP Youíre entitled to your opinion but thereís no need to accuse me of spouting guff, assuming that was aimed at me.
Iíve read plenty of your posts over the years and theyíre not always ďaccurateĒ Iím sure youíll agree.

My statement is that I have been told the coaching structure and back room staff are stable and it will be nice to have some stability for a change. I didnít ask how long for, so itís possible itís just for next season.

The Worcester news making up stuff was partly tongue in cheek but there doesnít seem to be anything concrete other than whatís written in the WN.
They say itís from a club spokesman, I havenít seen anything on the club website so either Iíve missed it or itís all coming via the WN which has in the past been wrong.

I donít KNOW any facts, Iím guessing like the rest of you.
The only thing I do know is what I was told.
smiling smiley

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
29 July, 2019 19:14
I never mentioned you

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
29 July, 2019 21:32
Concrete?/

The club released a statement!!

I would sat that is pretty much concrete, but maybe it hadnít hardened !

My personal feeling is, Duncan will stat one more season and then return home with his family if he can secure a post back in SA. If his family are happier back home that is exactly what most other husband and father would do.

JP

halfback09
halfback09
29 July, 2019 21:41
Maybe the thinking was if heís not willing to be here for the next 5 years, he may as well go now if he wants and weíll find someone for the long term rather than just two years

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
30 July, 2019 06:23
I think you are probably spot on but not because he doesnít want to be here, his family may want to go home to friends and family.

JP



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/07/2019 07:40 by Faithful_City.

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
30 July, 2019 13:25
Quote:
Faithful_City
Concrete?/
The club released a statement!!

I would sat that is pretty much concrete, but maybe it hadnít hardened !

My personal feeling is, Duncan will stat one more season and then return home with his family if he can secure a post back in SA. If his family are happier back home that is exactly what most other husband and father would do.

JP

To be pedantic, there is nothing on the Warriors website (unless I've missed it), it's only in the Evening news, that's what I meant by not concrete. They've got things wrong before.

Until it's announced by the club on the club website, I'll take whatever I read regarding this subject or any other subject with a pinch of salt.

If I believed half of what's written in the news, on forums and by other so called rugby experts (Fissler) then we'd have moved to another site, be way over the salary cap, in the championship and be watching Manu & Dylan Hartley run out for Worcester (Sm159)

For now Rory is staying with us, until the club say otherwise (Sm125)

MESSAGES->author
Abberley
30 July, 2019 21:22
Quote:
Pablo Warrior
... it's only in the Evening news, that's what I meant by not concrete. They've got things wrong before.

Until it's announced by the club on the club website, I'll take whatever I read regarding this subject or any other subject with a pinch of salt.

With virtually identical wording on the BBC sport website [www.bbc.co.uk], and:

The Rugby Paper quoting "A Warriors Statement said..."

Planet Rugby " Warriors to release a club statement which said..."

SA Rugby Mag "Warriors released a statement on Monday saying..."

etc.

seems very likely to be from a Warriors press release?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/07/2019 22:02 by Abberley.

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
31 July, 2019 07:14
Yes I agree Abberley, itís likely itís from the club but itís not 100%. I guess thereís nothing for the club to announce on the offy until thereís actually something to say, itís all ifs and buts with us adding our own thoughts into it.
The media tend to pinch things they find on other outlets. Weíve seen the WN quoting stuff they found on here. Lazy journalism.
Iím by no means saying Iím right and the articles are wrong. Iím saying there may be doubt thatís all.
Pablo smiling smiley

TVM Rides Again....Again
TVM Rides Again
31 July, 2019 07:23
If it wasnít from the club, Iíd have expected a fairly robust rebuttal considering the contents, and itís spread in the media.

Iím confident itís kosher

Pablo Warrior
Pablo Warrior
31 July, 2019 07:30
I was also told that Nanai will be arriving earlier than theyíd expected, I think around now. Does anyone know if heís here?

Bevere Warrior
Bevere Warrior
31 July, 2019 07:39
He was on a plane to England last week. Presumed he was just sorting things before flying back but maybe not. I keep checking Mitre 10 squad announcements to see if heís named but donít think Auckland have released theirs yet



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31/07/2019 07:40 by Bevere Warrior.

MESSAGES->author
Fiver
31 July, 2019 07:59
The Auckland website isn't exactly the most up to date. Fatialofa is still listed as a Mitre 10 squad member.

MESSAGES->author
TeflonTed
31 July, 2019 08:02
Quote:
Fiver
The Auckland website isn't exactly the most up to date. Fatialofa is still listed as a Mitre 10 squad member.

Steady on now Fiver, youíll destabilise the workings of the rumour machine if you start bringing facts to the table!

MESSAGES->author
Fiver
31 July, 2019 16:48
Quote:
TeflonTed
Quote:
Fiver
The Auckland website isn't exactly the most up to date. Fatialofa is still listed as a Mitre 10 squad member.

Steady on now Fiver, youíll destabilise the workings of the rumour machine if you start bringing facts to the table!

Facts? Surely they're banned. I'm happy to oblige with some conjecture.

MESSAGES->author
Faithful_City
01 August, 2019 06:20
Quote:
WN

ďThe club has put in place a strategic plan for the future of Warriors,Ē said a club spokesman on July 15.

ďWe do not envisage Rory Duncan being part of those plans and therefore we have given Rory permission to seek opportunities elsewhere.Ē

The Worcester News asked Warriors for an update on Duncanís situation but the club declined to comment further.


Well then, do you think they are reassessing or donít want to unhinge the players, supporters and sponsors

Full Article

WarriorRiddler
WarriorRiddler
01 August, 2019 07:53
Word on the street... There isn't enough money in the budget to afford Mr. Duncan, due to a certain relic extending his own contract first.

Villages12
Villages12
01 August, 2019 14:27
I really hope no-one responds to this !

More rumour, which someone will make into an "I told you so" !

Old Col
Old Col
01 August, 2019 18:01
My reading is that the " spokesman "who said he was not part of the long term strategic plan was giving out a very garbled message and may be getting his knuckles rapped. Best let the matter rest now and let the team prepare for the start of the season without speculation making Rory or any one else unsettled at this time .

MESSAGES->author
TeflonTed
01 August, 2019 20:54
I agree old Col, with the rider that if any of the chat on here unsettled Rory Duncan Iíd be extremely surprised.


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