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Just what have we learnt?
Discussion started by Faithful_City , 09 September, 2020 21:42
Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 09 September, 2020 21:42
About the players, the coaches and the game plan.

My thoughts are we learnt nothing good!

Total waste of time.

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Simba 09 September, 2020 21:45
Iíve learnt that we:
Donít compete at breakdowns
Donít compete at line outs
Are physically inferior from 1 - 23

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Trent_Blue 09 September, 2020 21:45
Agreed, although Iím even more worried about strength in depth at prop/second row now. Only really reinforced what we already knew.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Abmatt 09 September, 2020 21:52
All we learnt is that if we have a significant amount of injuries next season we will suffer if we have to make wholesale changes. I really do think that we are treating this as a pre-season and this is part of the plan.

Letís not forget that Iím the grand scheme of things these matches mean nothing.

Our 1st XV, interspersed with a smattering of youth when required, I believe will be a decent side.

Did we really expect anything else from tonight.

What is alarming is the amount of turnovers (especially on good attacking positions) and tries conceded.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2020 21:59 by Abmatt.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Simba 09 September, 2020 21:54
I expect them to be competitive at the very least.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Whispering_Death 09 September, 2020 22:16
Itís a pre season for us, whereas Bath have something to play for. Having said that, apart from Cutting I donít see any of the youngsters taking their opportunities, and I reckon Kingís third team has better passing and catching skills. 10, 9 and props are a real worry for me. FH is playing well but we have nothing else behind him, and Iíve not been impressed with Searle so far. We also still havenít replaced Spencer and Denton, we really need some power and grunt up front. We just arenít physical enough to compete with the top teams.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
ROLLO 09 September, 2020 22:22
I prefer to sleep on it and comment tomorrow other than to say that if you look at the faces of both Bristol and Bath players they were enjoying playing.
Worcester are not - and who can blame them.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
4934 09 September, 2020 22:26
As someone who was once a member of a King's 3rd XV you may be right - but I don't think so.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
WorcesterSauce 09 September, 2020 22:28
The young lads arenít as good as have been made out, are they?

Solly said that weíd be winning the league within 5 seasons with them. Iíll remember that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2020 22:29 by WorcesterSauce.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Warrior7 09 September, 2020 22:50
Need a real shakeup in the squad/recruitment process for me.

I'm more fine with relying on younger backs etc, but we need size, experience and dynamism in the tight 5. Currently only our first choice front row fills me with any confidence. Even our first choice 2nd rows are too lightweight to play together IMO.

Maybe we should cut the squad down to sign a few decent big blokes to make us more competitive and take us back to basics (as Bath did this evening). You can't maintain an effective attack if you can't win any collisions to put you on the front foot going forwards. It's way too easy to shut down because we absolutely need quick ball, whereas other teams can generate it from nothing.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Offa 10 September, 2020 06:58
Backs were passing the ball to each other with the Bath defence sitting on top of them. Agree that the lack of quick ball was an issue and also that we need far more chips over the top or grubbers through to check or turn defences, otherwise we just get marched back down the pitch even when in possession.

We will be competitive next season so long as we have no injuries - sadly injuries are part and parcel of the game.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 10 September, 2020 07:32
I think we have learnt that our squad on the whole is no where near good enough even to compete never mind win more than 4/5 games.

We have learnt that our recruitment over the last 2 season has been pretty damn poor.

We have learnt that because our youngsters look good in comparison to ďourĒ players does not mean they are good in comparison to other young players around, Dombrant, Barbeary for just 2 examples.

We have learnt that we need to recruit some better players before next season and actually spend to the cap not just say we are, because if we are we are getting extremely poor value for our money.

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Drutz 10 September, 2020 08:12
Quote:
Faithful City
We have learnt that we need to recruit some better players before next season
It was my understanding that this was pretty much the squad for next season, though!
I know Solly was quoted at saying he would look at bringing people in if needed, but looking and doing are two completely different things.
There are not a lot of free players out there and COVID from the point of view of bringing players in from abroad and financially may stop that as we are not going to be able to have more than 1,000 people Sixways under the new guidelines coming in next week. I also wouldn't expect those to change until the Spring think the 6 people, 1000 gathering will be in place until then.
I am sure the players playing last night will improve, some like Lawrence are almost there, a few errors from him last night, but he is a star of the future. If this will be enough to push us on next season, I'm not so sure.



Pulling the boots on for one more year

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Fiver 10 September, 2020 08:20
What we've learnt is what we already know. The forwards shift the piano into the right place so the backs can play the tune. Our 2nd choice tight five barely shifted it out of the store room.

Playing two young locks together will always put you on the back foot, the level of this competition is just too high. Also, Black and Palfreman are not mobile, dynamic props, in the style of Sinckler or Genge. Cutting gets around the park, but often gets turned over as his pack haven't backed him up, either through inexperience, or speed.

It's really hard to judge the half backs when you're constantly getting back foot ball. Even the England half backs look awful with back foot ball. I did see Searle miss way too many tackles last night, and Kitto drop off a few. In fact, way too many of our players did that thing where you hit a player with a tackle, but slip off because you assume another player will finish the job. The trouble was we didn't have many players finishing the job.

There were a couple of positives. I thought Dodd did well, quite often making yards when we were going backwards. Fidow looked decent, David is a handful and Ollie was, well, he was Ollie. With Eddie watching I wouldn't be surprised to see Ollie in the next England training camp.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
WarwickEastie 10 September, 2020 08:35
I agree with most of the comments.
We are very underpowered in the forwards once you get beyond first choice - and without any platform the backs are always going to look bad.

But again, we didn't execute basics - dropped high balls, falling off tackles, shipping the ball when its not on.

This is a tough school to learn in and I feel a bit for those young players. Ideally you bring them in in ones and twos to an experienced team .

Difficult to see whether this is good development, or just making up the numbers before the 'real' season starts......
WE

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Fiver 10 September, 2020 08:47
I remember hearing the saying "Hard work will always triumph over talent that refuses to work hard". I think our youngsters are learning how hard you have to work at Premiership level.

It didn't help how often we dropped the ball, but the same can be said for most of our games. No doubt this is down to pressure. Even Pennell dropped more in that game than he normally does in a season.

It's all good learning, although the flip side might well be that we learn who just won't cut it at this level.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Garym 10 September, 2020 13:22
I thought the key stat yesterday was that the speed of ruck ball for Bath was 3 seconds while it was 6 seconds for us. On those stats for us, the opposition defence will always be in place and we go nowhere. A mx of physicality and training was the key for bath, yet again we were physically bullied, we need some big bruisers

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 10 September, 2020 13:28
Kitto was the main cause of slow ball, spent most of his time shouting at players, moving them around before getting the damned ball out.

I also noticed at our pick and drive we did it reall close to the ruck other clubs go wider maybe 2 players out.

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Simba 10 September, 2020 14:56
What would be the point in Kitto getting the ball out quickly if the lethargic players were in position ready.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
WarwickEastie 10 September, 2020 15:00
Quote on the Beeb from Solly:
"We've treated these games like pre-season and it's given opportunities to a lot of our young players, including from our academy.

"It's been good from that perspective. This period will stand us in good stead. It was a big ask for us to come here and be successful."

Not sure what that says to the guys on the pitch. Don't worry about it, it's only a bit of preseason...

Re: Just what have we learnt?
w4rriorz1980 10 September, 2020 16:23
And iirc Solly saying not finishing 8th or above would be a failure.

Bet he wished he didn't say that.



Eats,Shoots And Leaves

Re: Just what have we learnt?
LiveInHope 10 September, 2020 18:52
Agree with nearly all of the above, we arenít currently good enough, donít have depth to run 2 different teams & the youth arenít currently there or good enough to compete at the Prem level.
But I used Ďcurrentlyísí twice above, As thatís where we are, the future will be different.
As a team I think we will improve, especially the youth.
Also next year we wonít have 3 games in 10 days, thus wonít need 2 different teams.
We are rebuilding.....again....I know we are sick of hearing that, but itís a fact we are rebuilding again. That takes a season or two to know if it will work. Some of the youth wonít be up to the job, but some will. Everyone one of the youth will be a better player for being thrashed by Exeter, Bristol & Gloucester. These games will also help bring the new coaches closer to their goals.
Again, glad we arenít spending huge big bucks on journey men that may help us in the short term, we tried that again & again and it failed. More than happy to give this a go.
In summary, in this weird year, cut the owners, coaches & team some slack.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 10 September, 2020 20:28
I already have by donating this season ticket refunds and bought a full ST for next season.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Abmatt 10 September, 2020 22:44
Quote:
LiveInHope
Agree with nearly all of the above, we arenít currently good enough, donít have depth to run 2 different teams & the youth arenít currently there or good enough to compete at the Prem level.
But I used Ďcurrentlyísí twice above, As thatís where we are, the future will be different.
As a team I think we will improve, especially the youth.
Also next year we wonít have 3 games in 10 days, thus wonít need 2 different teams.
We are rebuilding.....again....I know we are sick of hearing that, but itís a fact we are rebuilding again. That takes a season or two to know if it will work. Some of the youth wonít be up to the job, but some will. Everyone one of the youth will be a better player for being thrashed by Exeter, Bristol & Gloucester. These games will also help bring the new coaches closer to their goals.
Again, glad we arenít spending huge big bucks on journey men that may help us in the short term, we tried that again & again and it failed. More than happy to give this a go.
In summary, in this weird year, cut the owners, coaches & team some slack.

Couldnít agree more

Re: Just what have we learnt?
SixNineOne 11 September, 2020 08:48
Quote:
Faithful_City
I think we have learnt that our squad on the whole is no where near good enough even to compete never mind win more than 4/5 games.
We have learnt that our recruitment over the last 2 season has been pretty damn poor.

We have learnt that because our youngsters look good in comparison to ďourĒ players does not mean they are good in comparison to other young players around, Dombrant, Barbeary for just 2 examples.

We have learnt that we need to recruit some better players before next season and actually spend to the cap not just say we are, because if we are we are getting extremely poor value for our money.

JP
Reading this thread I could be forgiven for thinking everyone was talking about my team, London Irish. We seem to be in a remarkably similar position. Assuming we both put out our best available teams, it might even be quite a good match. Scoring tries against us shouldnít be too difficult; just keep driving up the middle of the field, weíll give away a stupid penalty, you kick to the corner and itís an easy driving maul to score - Simples! I just hope we manage to uncover your weakness, too...
All the best on Sunday!

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Garym 11 September, 2020 08:50
[quote SixNineOne]

JP[/quote]
Reading this thread I could be forgiven for thinking everyone was talking about my team, London Irish. We seem to be in a remarkably similar position. Assuming we both put out our best available teams, it might even be quite a good match. Scoring tries against us shouldnít be too difficult; just keep driving up the middle of the field, weíll give away a stupid penalty, you kick to the corner and itís an easy driving maul to score - Simples! I just hope we manage to uncover your weakness, too...
All the best on Sunday![/quote]

This is actually very similar to the Tigers and Saints board as well. According to each board we/they are favourites for relegation next season. Online not playing the "we are so bad" game at the moment are Falcons

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Offa 11 September, 2020 09:25
Probably because Falcons aren't playing.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
NW2 11 September, 2020 09:59
Quote:
LiveInHope
As thatís where we are, the future will be different.

Sorry LIH, would love to agree but I broke my rose tinted specs a long time ago. We have been promised ďdifferent/betterĒ season after season and it just doesnít happen.
At the moment we are apparently treating this as a pre-season and next season will be better. I disagree. Success breeds success, and conversely loss after loss can only demoralise the the squad and make them question themselves/ coaches/ set up etc.

I will be happy to eat humble pie next season when we are tearing up the league, but I think I am pretty safe.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 11 September, 2020 10:23
NW2 I absolutely agree.

I really do feel we are kidding ourselves. Our squad including the HiPo's are in a different(lower) league then the top 6 clubs in England. We are also well below the level of the other 5 lower clubs.

This way of excusing failure is not going to do anyone any good.

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
ROLLO 11 September, 2020 10:37
We should be able to play our first choice XV and bench in the next three games. I would suggest that we will know better then where we are.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 11 September, 2020 11:16
Sunday could be a very interesting game. The two worst clubs both putting out their best teams AND we have had 4 warm up preseason games already.

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
ROLLO 11 September, 2020 11:29
I think you may include Tigers in that list JP.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 11 September, 2020 11:32
You can only have 2 in the list for the two words clubs Rollo(Sm159)

I do believe that Tigers are marginally better that us and Irish, made worse by coaching and leadership.

A bit like us and Irish!!!

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
ROLLO 11 September, 2020 11:35
I'm not buying that JP . if you looked at the way LI played at Glos Wuss and Tigera are worse , only of course IMHO.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Abmatt 11 September, 2020 11:46
And tigers at wasps.

The table doesnít lie. The two worst sides are at the bottom (sarries excluded)

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 11 September, 2020 12:10
Fair enough Rollo.

Personally I don't think there is much in the bottom 4 clubs to be honest

JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 11 September, 2020 12:38


JP

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Villages12 11 September, 2020 18:05
I learned

that we have a lot of injured players who would normally be first teamers. Some of whom are clearly being given time to fully recover instead of risking them during the current fiasco.

that Solly has told the young guys to go out and express themselves, they need the experience of playing in the squad when there is nothing at stake. They need encouragement not to be told there aren't good enough after one or two games !

we had a new coaching squad (in fairness I already knew this ) and that they must be given time to get the squad playing their way.

that playing so many games in so few days is nonsense in the tough environment of the Premiership.

that there is little play for during such a stupid period of time at the behest of a TV company who seems to be able to control Premier Rugby.

that a few people expected more from Warriors than was ever likely to happen in the timescale given.

that the players were less than accurate, and referees were very rusty and missed a lot of offences that were taking place. Referees have no confidence to make even the simplest decisions without asking the TMO and even with all he technology they get it wrong !

that rugby with artificial noise rather than crowds gives no motivation to anyone.

that money controls pretty much all sport.

There's probably more but roll on to the time we are able to watch live games, in the stadium with loads of real atmosphere.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Offa 12 September, 2020 08:23
To add to that:

We have heard from a few DORs that in this congested schedule that there is no time for training, only recovery. That puts teams with established patterns of play and processes at an advantage, and those with new coaching set-ups (us, Glos and Tigers) at a district disadvantage.

(this is a minor point as I concede that squad strength is the bigger factor during this odd period. Our finances dictate that we are going to have to rely on the youth moving forward. Next season our youngsters will be drip-fed into the 23 when injuries occur. I would rather that Bec Cutting, Noah Heward etc etc were seeing game time now, rather than being thrown into the deep-end when it matters. Noah has improved visibly in just three games. It is different elsewhere in the table, but, moral aside, this is a meaningless end of season tv jamboree), time for invaluable experience for the youngsters).

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Abmatt 12 September, 2020 08:51
On Wednesday I think it was JT that said the XV on the pitch hadnít trained together due to the quick turn around.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
ROLLO 12 September, 2020 12:53
It is also fair to point out that of the twelve players that are injured eight havn't figured at all. Problly as bad aratio as some other club and worse than most. It wont have helped our selection although most of the injured woulf have been bench. This is not a new thing for Warriors.
Still no official confirmation of the new first team physio Gavin O'Neil as reported on the Pirates SN site.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
shrewsburyman 12 September, 2020 15:24
That these games are really important for developing our younger players but that after just a few games some players like Heward Impress and show that they are part of the future. In his case our next full back. How I love an old fashioned full back who can read the game and importantly knows how to tackle.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Brummagem7's 13 September, 2020 14:49
Reckon it's been good seeing all the young lads having a go, some have impressed some haven't. As long as we still give youngsters a chance in the prem next season then I've been fine with how it's gone the last few weeks.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Malvern Man 13 September, 2020 20:56
What have we learnt? Well despite some pretty horrible hammerings, our two wins have lifted us up one place in the table. In a normal season we would be 10th.

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Malvern Man 13 September, 2020 21:11
Two more points. Is 42 our highest ever Premiership away score? How often does a score of 42 come from six converted tries?

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Faithful_City 14 September, 2020 07:45
We didnít score 42 we scored 40

Missed the first conversion

Re: Just what have we learnt?
Fiver 14 September, 2020 08:28
I'd agree with some of the comments above. What we've learnt is that some of the youngsters, who wouldn't normally get a look in, have improved game on game and will be able to slot into the team much more easily next season.

I'd much rather see a player like Heward come onto the pitch in an important game knowing he's already got 4 premiership caps under his belt.

The other thing we've learnt, I think think we'll miss Ollie for parts of the season as Eddie may well cone knocking. Perhaps Ted too.


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