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Saracens relegated
Discussion started by NOM (IP Logged), 18 January, 2020 19:34
Johnflinn
NOM
18 January, 2020 19:34
Premiership Rugby just announced Saracens are relegated at the end of this season!

Tip
Tip
18 January, 2020 19:46
See, cheats never prosper

covkid53
covkid53
18 January, 2020 21:03
So long as two teams come down, there is no reason or excuse to keep the club finishing bottom in the division. Unless of course they strip Sarries of all their points, which is likely to protect the division from a championship wannabee.

No help to Cov whatsoever, and what happens if championship teams refuse to play against them for cheating ?

Seems mad to me that a club stuffed with internationals, who's players miss half a season with call ups are punished so harshly. Their salaries should be deducted from the cap calculation when on imternational duty. Not much benefit to any club if players cant play..... Just saying.

John Butler
John Butler
18 January, 2020 21:56
Surely as part of their relegation, they will not receive the parachute payment.
If they were to do so frankly it would be a disgrace of the highest magnitude.
Two up, two down ? I wish I had enough confidence in the Premiership & RFU to believe that could happen.
If it just ''them'' coming down, I have real concerns for the Championship next season.

Wazeroonie
Wazeroonie
18 January, 2020 22:37
Should he be allowed to slum it in the Championship, I'm especially looking forward to seeing Owen Farrell's trademark no arms tackles on Coventry players going without punishment from the officials.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/01/2020 22:46 by Wazeroonie.

timdouglas1
timdouglas1
19 January, 2020 01:14
So where do the RFU go from here? Saracens RFC have accepted relegation as opposed to letting their finances be made public, which to me looks very murky indeed. Could the RFU look at this as a criminal matter? and yes I am using the words fraudulent procedures. Also, could we also be looking at potential court cases, and even prison sentences? Relegation could just be the tip of the iceberg, as it could be Saracens RFC have quite a lot more to hide here.

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
19 January, 2020 08:26
It still grates with me that the relegation of previous clubs who have been found guilty of financial mismanagement (London Welsh, Richmond, London Scottish, etc) is not mirrored in the treatment of Sarries - or of Yorkshire Carnegie either. Surely, if it's financial mismanagement the same treatment should be meted out to all who are found guilty?
There is such an absence of a clear statement of intent from Premiership Rugby. A line in the sand should be drawn and all who flout it should be met with the same punishment.
End of rant.

HoboAl
HoboAl
19 January, 2020 09:18
Quote:
CharlieBravo
It still grates with me that the relegation of previous clubs who have been found guilty of financial mismanagement (London Welsh, Richmond, London Scottish, etc) is not mirrored in the treatment of Sarries - or of Yorkshire Carnegie either. Surely, if it's financial mismanagement the same treatment should be meted out to all who are found guilty?
There is such an absence of a clear statement of intent from Premiership Rugby. A line in the sand should be drawn and all who flout it should be met with the same punishment.
End of rant.

I can understand why it 'grates' on you but my reasoning is this (and you may not agree or like it). Alot of those clubs went bust through financial mismanagement and went into receivership, so where treated like a brand new club starting out - right down the tier system.

Carnegie went into a voluntary process which got round the rules (wrongly in my opinion and they should have been treated like the others). Basically they exploited a loophole that needs closing - like football did after Leicester.

Saracens are different because their financial mismanagement is overpayment of players - cheating gaining an unfair advantage on teams sticking to the rules. But they are still a going financial concerns. The effects of relegation could damage the club and I believe they do have sizeable debts so who knows what their future holds especially if Wray steps away.

I dont necessarilly agree with these judgements, but it is my take on why I think they have had a different punishment to others.

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
19 January, 2020 09:56
Interesting viewpoint and I can see where you’re coming from.
If, as is the case from your argument, that Sarries are still a going concern albeit with sizeable debts, does their relegation one step down to the Championship have more than a little political influence behind it? For instance, the fact that they have been one of the foremost and highest winning profile clubs in England for several seasons, the fact that they attract good crowds and sponsorship, the fact that they have seven or eight established England players in their squad, etc, etc.

Moosemagic
Moosemagic
19 January, 2020 13:15
My thoughts,
Sarries should be relegated along with the team that finish bottom, if that is any other team rather than Sarries.
Two down two up if Sarries do not finish bottom
No parachute payment given to Sarries next season,
They should be mandated to make their accounts available for inspection,
finally and no one seems to have touched on it, if they have to keep within the salary cap then they will lose their big names anyway. Can any one really see Farrell, Itoge etc plying their trade in the Championship, not going to happen!



Phil Reynolds

covkid53
covkid53
19 January, 2020 13:26
What I dislike is instead of a damaged, weakened relegated club coming down for championship teams to have a crack at, we have a club whereby even their U23 and development squad would be fearsome opposition, with a smattering of current first teamers it will be a rollover every week. Why should the championship clubs spend fortunes to facilitate this shambolic situation ? They should have been relegated for 2-3 season's without the possibility of promotion until their sentence has been served. Maybe championship league bosses should add this "cheats" proviso ?

HoboAl
HoboAl
19 January, 2020 15:52
Quote:
CharlieBravo
Interesting viewpoint and I can see where you’re coming from.
If, as is the case from your argument, that Sarries are still a going concern albeit with sizeable debts, does their relegation one step down to the Championship have more than a little political influence behind it? For instance, the fact that they have been one of the foremost and highest winning profile clubs in England for several seasons, the fact that they attract good crowds and sponsorship, the fact that they have seven or eight established England players in their squad, etc, etc.

I am sure that is in the mix too. Some of those England stars they claim to have developed were bought from other clubs were they not?

Match watcher
Egg Timer
20 January, 2020 11:58
So I saw these posts elsewhere and go to thinking that if Saracns can't be promoted for at least a year for the mentioned reasons, it might give the Championship it's first properly meningful season in terms of realistic promotion prospects. And maybe just in time for us...

[Quote]
Sarries NOW confirmed as down.
"Who's to say that the 2nd division will want Saracens anyway? aren't there rules in that division too?

"Re: Sarries NOW confirmed as down.
Not on salary there isn't, no. But to come up, any team has to demonstrate compliance with the Premiership salary cap for two consecutive seasons...so Saracens cannot be promoted straight back.[/quote]

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
21 January, 2020 11:01
There's little, if any, point served by continuing this debate but I can't help quote some of the comment made on the BBC Sport Rugby Union web page on his Sunday 19th January (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51168926) article by Tom Fordyce -

"This is not inadvertent financial mismanagement....................it is deliberate and clandestine circumvention of the rules, over a significant period of time. It is cheating."

So despite the arguments succinctly put forward by HoboAl in which he drew a difference between the debacle at London Welsh, etc, and what has happened at Sarries, I would suggest that there would be a strong case for meting out the same treatment to Sarries.
What makes the situation even more galling is that there is open talk of the club and the players being in the Championship "for only one season", as if it's guaranteed that they'll be immediately promoted back into the Premiership. Which makes the punishment seem superficial and hardly worth it. How about the punishment fitting the crime?

Rob C
Rob C
21 January, 2020 12:29
Just as I took no pleasure in seeing the afore-mentioned teams being relegated to the bottom rung of the league system I would also take no pleasure from the same thing happening to Saracens.

I would guess that their financial predicament has little to do with the players, coaches, physios and other associated, hard-working staff, or their supporters all of which are part of the wider rugby family.

Their seems to be the sort of obligatory witch hunt that is now the norm with social media led, in no small part, by Andy Goode who apparently has a particular axe to grind.

Would we have liked the same reaction coming our way during the Sugrue / Green eras?

BackTenRef?
BackTenRef?
21 January, 2020 13:02
Saracens might well join the pro 14...

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
21 January, 2020 16:19
I think there’s a difference in that the Sugrue/Green era was financial mismanagement, certainly, but was not “deliberate and clandestine circumvention of the rules over a significant period of time” aimed at “cheating”.
I’m not sure I would necessarily take any pleasure from their relegation to the bottom rung because, as you say, there’s little doubt that “the players, coaches, physios, associated hard working staff all of which are part of the wider rugby family” have had little to do with the “financial predicament” and are entirely blameless.
As for a witch hunt. No, that’s not where I’m coming from and I know nothing about Andy Goode’s position. Nor, frankly, do I want to.
I’m just standing by my instinct that the punishment should fit the crime.

MESSAGES->author
AdminBTCov
21 January, 2020 16:36
Quote:
CharlieBravo
I think there’s a difference in that the Sugrue/Green era was financial mismanagement, certainly, but was not “deliberate and clandestine circumvention of the rules over a significant period of time” aimed at “cheating”.
I’m not sure I would necessarily take any pleasure from their relegation to the bottom rung because, as you say, there’s little doubt that “the players, coaches, physios, associated hard working staff all of which are part of the wider rugby family” have had little to do with the “financial predicament” and are entirely blameless.
As for a witch hunt. No, that’s not where I’m coming from and I know nothing about Andy Goode’s position. Nor, frankly, do I want to.
I’m just standing by my instinct that the punishment should fit the crime.
You really think that players (not to mention other staff) were not complicit - or at the very least aware - they were being paid nefariously and collectively in such a way as to exceed the salary cap?
Blameless?
Really?

Camouflage
Camouflage
21 January, 2020 17:12
So there are rumours that Saracens are not the only club to allegedly be breaching the salary cap. If true, that might make for an interesting few weeks ahead. I still think the team which finishes bottom of the Premiership should also be relegated too. Then the following year only one is allowed back in. Might make second place in the championship a worthwhile aim for many teams.

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
21 January, 2020 17:43
No, Statler, I honestly don’t think they were. Had they been, it would have been very difficult for Nigel Wray and his cohorts to have been as “clandestine” as they were. They couldn’t afford to be to so open and blatant as for the whole world and his dog to be aware. In addition, surely nobody cheats openly and blatantly?
But they have been found out after several seasons. So they’ve got away with it for a long time, which must have involved either:-
- that everyone (absolutely everyone) was complicit for all that time and were trusted to keep schtum
or
- that even the staff who are employed at Sarries were kept in the dark for obvious safety reasons.
I am persuaded that it was the latter.

HoboAl
HoboAl
21 January, 2020 18:16
Quote:
CharlieBravo
No, Statler, I honestly don’t think they were. Had they been, it would have been very difficult for Nigel Wray and his cohorts to have been as “clandestine” as they were. They couldn’t afford to be to so open and blatant as for the whole world and his dog to be aware. In addition, surely nobody cheats openly and blatantly?
But they have been found out after several seasons. So they’ve got away with it for a long time, which must have involved either:-
- that everyone (absolutely everyone) was complicit for all that time and were trusted to keep schtum
or
- that even the staff who are employed at Sarries were kept in the dark for obvious safety reasons.
I am persuaded that it was the latter.

Strange how most rugby fans have had a strong suspicion for a few years along with other clubs. Authorities have buried their head in the sand and are also to blame quite frankly.

Rob C
Rob C
21 January, 2020 18:26
I'm just surprised at the degree to which some people want Saracens punished.
I think bringing players in from the other side of the world without then being able to pay them and then conning them into accepting a fraction of what they're owed is worse than over-paying players but I wouldn't have wanted a certain Yorkshire side kicked out of the league either. Relegated a division yes, the same as Saracens.

Maybe it's time to move on...

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
21 January, 2020 18:30
That’s where my contention emanates. It’s the authorities, PRL in particular, who don’t seem to be possessed of the balls or the guts to be consistent in their adjudication and to make a very clear statement of intent to all rugby clubs. They are guilty (imo) of implementing one rule for one club and another rule for another club. It’s not a clear message or statement of intent. The enormity of this situation requires - demands even - that an unequivocal stance is made and is communicated to all clubs, regardless of their host or status.

Rob C
Rob C
21 January, 2020 18:47
You're not wrong there Cliff.

CharlieBravo
CharlieBravo
21 January, 2020 18:49
As in any debate there are differing views. Political parties and general elections being a very strong case in point! Inevitably across the spectrum we are not going to get a consensus, which is absolutely fair.
So I’ve said my bit (several times actually) and I’ll leave it at that.

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