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Here we go again....
Discussion started by Tom A Hawk (IP Logged), 23 June, 2020 19:02
MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk
23 June, 2020 19:02
Another year and calls to rebrand the Chiefs are here again.

[rugbyonslaught.com]

Exeforever
Exeforever
23 June, 2020 22:25
One might have more time for this rubbish if the website on which it is published wasn't supported by advertising for a computer game that's principal selling point appears to be that it shows young women with crossbows from a point of view that emphasises their shapely posteriors whilst giving no indication of what the game is about. To complain about racism whilst being financially supported by the most crude sexism rather takes the rug out from under your argument I would suggest.

It would also help the site's credibility if it understood that "on its crest" is meaningless. If you can't get your basic grammar right what business do you have publishing?

For the record I detest the "Chiefs" branding and always have done but it is no reason for potboiling gutter journalism of the sort that this article peddles.

Black Hawk
Black Hawk
23 June, 2020 22:45
Interesting article.

Saracen - a term widely used among Christian writers in Europe during the Middle Ages to refer to Arab Muslims. Should this not be addressed?

Bears, Wasps, sharks and Tigers could all equally be accused of Speciesism. Very nasty, especially as all of these have a history of being hunted and /or killed by humans!

MESSAGES->author
Tom A Hawk
23 June, 2020 23:42
Quote:
Black Hawk
Interesting article.
Saracen - a term widely used among Christian writers in Europe during the Middle Ages to refer to Arab Muslims. Should this not be addressed?

Completely agreed. When you look at the origin and use of the term Saracen it is and has been used for racist purposes in its past, that cannot be ignored.

I have said before that Chiefs as a brand is very much thrown into the same camp as the 'Redskins' brand, which lets be honest is an utterly disgracefully racist branding. But when you look at the history of this phrasing Chiefs or Chief it does not have the anywhere near the same historically racist background as the term Redskins.

Even the cultural appropriation argument comes across to me as someone trying to interpret what another person would find offensive. If an American Indian said that the Chiefs branding was a mockery of their culture then I would accept this point, but I see no reason to accept it from someone with no understanding or origin within that culture.

MESSAGES->author
ouch!_that_hurts
24 June, 2020 09:27
I think that, has been said on other similar posts on the subject, the 'Chiefs' name isn't particularly an issue, it's the native American imagery that is. Although, despite arguments to the contrary, I suspect the Chiefs name was chosen at the time with an eye on the marketing possibilities.

The Chiefs in New Zealand have managed to come up with a badge which, I assume is a Maori chief, that doesn't offend - the Maori culture is, of course, more ingrained in their culture than the native American is in ours.

Personally, as a Chiefs fan, I'd like to see them get rid of the 'Red Indian' imagery - and I use that term as opposed to 'native American' because I think it reflects what is intended by the marketing. In my view, it does poke fun at the culture and while I'm not offended - I'm not native American so how can I be - I can understand why people do feel the need to comment. As has probably been said before, there are plenty of other local 'chiefs' we can create an image of/for.

That said, I'm inclined to agree that if you're going to start on Exeter, then Saracens are in much the same position ............ and, all joking aside, I don't think we're going to see too many complaints from the animal kingdom just yet.

plymptonchief
plymptonchief
24 June, 2020 10:12
Personally the Chiefs logo and branding does not worry me one iota! It's a matter of pride for which I think the native americans were always renowned. Bravery is a large part of the game and again was a large part of the native americans ethos.
How about Crusaders, and as mentioned elsewhere Saracens . The whole thing is a left inspired "me too" bandwagon.

SimonG19
SimonG19
24 June, 2020 11:52
Wow a handful of sad people who have nothing better to do that pretend people are interested on their opinion on Twatter have their nonsense picked up by an extremely dubious rugby tabloid website. I'm sure it will appeal to people with IQs less than their shoe sizes.

Master Chief
Master Chief
25 June, 2020 05:00
Cultural appropriation suggests that we are cherry picking aspects of a culture in a way that pokes fun at it or belittles it. Yes I am sure that the name was chosen for marketing purposes, but I do think in any way at all that we as a club and fans are poking fun or belittling the Native American culture. Certainly no offence is intended at all! Id intend offence then that is another matter. Although we might somewhat trivialise it I firmly believe that we have both embraced and celebrated it. Endemic racism must be stamped out but not every reference to another culture is racist! Extraordinary. I agree with the above. If native Americans are offended then we should absolutely consider our brand, however we should not bow down to those who themselves have no immediate cultural reference.

ChiefChopper
RedExe
25 June, 2020 06:25
I've commented many a time on this debate. It's always funny how people always think that there are requests for Exeter to rename, I've hardly ever seen those requests. It's about understanding how the use of Native American imagery for many is offensive. You just have to spend a little bit of time and look at what is happening in US sports, where this imagery is being removed and has been for years.

The one thing this debate does always do is help to perpetuate the stereotype of people from the South-West as being backwards country-bumpkins, ignorant of historical and social issues that affect other societies and cultures and a bit racist.

ChiefChopper
RedExe
25 June, 2020 07:15
[najanewsroom.com]

"A growing body of scientific research clearly demonstrates the harm caused by the portrayal of race-based mascots in media. The harm includes negative impacts on the self-esteem of Indigenous youth, increased prejudicial attitudes toward Indigenous people, and increased stereotyping of other minority groups."

"The American Psychological Association has affirmed that Indian mascots establish unwelcome and hostile learning environments for Indigenous students and foster negative stereotypes of Indigenous people."

Zyder head
Zyder head
25 June, 2020 21:30
I hope we ditch the mascot and the native American nature side of things personally.
I don't think it is intended in an offensive way but I am not an American Indian so my opinion doesn't matter on this and i am sick of reading negative stories in the media about this and am struggling to defend it.
Bigger clubs than us have changed their branding to something more suitable to today's standards and I would hope we would be big enough to do the same.
Keep the name yes but change the imagery to something related to Exeter like a Dumnonii Chief.

big chopper
big chopper
26 June, 2020 04:07
So....

The Dixie Chicks drop Dixie from their name to become The Chicks because its offensive to the Confederate South.

Lady Antebellum drops Antebellum to become Lady A because it has the same links to the Confederate South again.

The world has gone mad!

Exeter Rugby anyone?!

Black Hawk
Black Hawk
26 June, 2020 09:45
Quote:
Zyder head
Keep the name yes but change the imagery to something related to Exeter like a Dumnonii Chief.

That's a good shout in my view.

In these changing times I can't help but think that Exeter now has a prime opportunity to lead the way on this. A branding change would surely be seen as a strong and positive move which would be viewed around the world in a favourable light.

Absolutely keep the Chiefs name, but drop the native American association would be my call.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/06/2020 09:51 by Black Hawk.

plymptonchief
plymptonchief
26 June, 2020 10:09
If we drop the native american association as suggested here what about the Tomahawk Chop?

MESSAGES->author
ouch!_that_hurts
26 June, 2020 10:35
The Dixie in Dixie Chicks isn't offensive to the American South - it's the offensiveness of the word Dixie to BLM, etc.

Similarly, the word antebellum - which actually is Latin for 'before the war' - has slavery-related connections because of its reference to the American South before the civil war.

I don't see what's wrong with Exeter Rugby; it is what's actually on the shirt.

As I said before, I don't have a problem with the use of 'Chiefs' but I just feel that the cartoon-like imagery of the Native American is derogatory.

I read an article a couple of years ago where a native American said he wasn't offended by the Washington Redskins logo because it depicted an actual Indian but was offended by Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo because it was a caricature. He also said he didn't see the need to wave tomahawks because of its links to scalping (although, strictly speaking, a tomahawk was basically a club - knives were used for scalping). I agree with him.

MESSAGES->author
Toomanychiefs
26 June, 2020 11:18
I don't see the chiefs logo as being a cartoon character. I think it looks strong and powerful.
Big chief on the other hand can be seen in a different light?
Is it time for him to hang up his chopper?!

goss8800
Chief Fire Water
26 June, 2020 13:56
No.

There has been no ill intent by Exeter Rugby club to brand themselves the Chiefs and use an Indian logo. Some people need to take a hard look at themselves and see there are bigger issues in the world than a rugby club calling themselves the Chiefs and using a Indian logo. There are to many snow flake and PC people in the world now that they go out looking for issues to get upset at.

ChiefChopper
RedExe
26 June, 2020 15:09
Some people need to take a hard look at themselves and realise that in society one of the big issues is racism. Racism exists in many forms, one of those being racial stereotypes. There are too many ignorant people in the world now that they can't go out and educate themselves on the subject.

ChiefChopper
RedExe
26 June, 2020 15:28
If we were re-branding our club today for the first time, do you think that anybody would support the club going for Native American stereotype imagery in its branding? No, of course, there wouldn't be. Would there be support for branding that represented OUR local culture and history? Absolutely there would. So let's do that. We are Exeter Chiefs, if we want to brand our club, let's do it with something that we can all be proud of.

Ultimately though, the branding is all about money. Forget all of these excuses that it honours the native american communities, it doesn't. We do nothing as a club to honour these communities. A fan playing dress up on a Saturday, isn't honouring these communities. So as it is about money, eventually it will change, probably not soon, but eventually. Because ultimately as we grow and the commercial opportunities increase, companies will not want to be associated with a club that for many supports racist imagery. Sport teams throughout North America, are changing their branding away from this type of imagery. Eventually, we will too. It's just a shame that it will be led by money and calls from people outside of Exeter Rugby and not by the fans themselves.

ChiefChopper
RedExe
26 June, 2020 16:54
For those of you wanting to understand the impact of mascots like ours, this is an interesting paper which was written on the subject.

The Psychosocial Effects of Native Mascots

ABSTRACT
Approximately 2,000 teams in the U.S. utilize Native American mascots, the majority of which are associated with schools. Across the nation there continue to be many intense conflicts over these mascots. Most conflicts focus on differences in opinion, rather than on the effects of these mascots. The purpose of this article is to provide educational decision-makers with a
comprehensive review of research on the psychosocial effects of Native American mascots. This body of research suggests that these mascots generate undesirable effects. First, they are psychologically detrimental to Native American students. Second, for non-Native persons, they are associated with negative stereotypes of Native Americans. Third, these mascots undermine intergroup relations by increasing negative stereotyping of Native Americans. Lastly, supporters of these mascots are more apt to believe prejudicial ideas. We discuss these findings relative to broader societal contexts.

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