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3rd April 2020

RFU Confirmed Newcastle Falcons’ promotion to the Gallagher Premiership for the 2020-21 season


The future of the Championship
Discussion started by Osric , 24 May, 2020 09:36
The future of the Championship
Osric 24 May, 2020 09:36
Piece from Auntie

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Re: The future of the Championship
Rafpilot2000 24 May, 2020 23:38
The reduction in funding to championship clubs is effectively ring fencing by proxy . Without significant investment , the gulf that already exists will be insurmountable. Especially given stadium and infrastructure requirements as well as the team quality and training.

Re: The future of the Championship
dick g 25 May, 2020 09:33
Quite right Biggles. So let's get on with it and put up the fence.

Re: The future of the Championship
Rafpilot2000 25 May, 2020 10:02
I understand those rugby puritans who are strongly opposed to ring fencing but this is death by a thousand paper cuts . A part time underfunded team will never be able to make the leap up and with Saracens thrashing all the championship clubs next season it is sadly making a mockery of the fantastic teams in that league.
Every season it's not imposed , clubs are losing vast amounts of money and unable to budget with financial security with a long term plan.
It's equally unfair in players who settle in an area with family with an agreed contract who then have to suffer the uncertainty of not knowing if they will need to move on at the end of a season if demoted .

Re: The future of the Championship
stuart66 25 May, 2020 18:15
I think if ringfenceing comes in we will end up with the top 3 or 4 teams with owners with deep pockets way ahead of everybody else. we will be stuck at the bottom and a feeder team for the rest of the league. I think we will end up struggling to get 5000 average at kp . Their will not be any great money making tv deals after the bt deal the prem has now runs out.

Re: The future of the Championship
Mafia 26 May, 2020 09:46
There are and always will be pros and cons for ring fencing. I am one who is in favour now but was a bit on the fence before. It is the lesser of two evils. We can either try and compete with the big boys with some financial security or can bounce up and down (or be firmly in that fight) between the Prem and Championship as we risk most seasons and each time we go down there is a greater drop in income etc and we wait until we cannot financially survive a season as a full time professional outfit in tier 2. I cannot really see that announcements like this one suggest anything but ring fencing is coming likely season 21/22 after Sarries bounce back up and possibly adding Ealing to the mix plus not relegating whoever finishes bottom. There are some rules such as those related to salaries etc that need sorting but that can be done during the next 12 months.

Re: The future of the Championship
Rafpilot2000 26 May, 2020 12:08
It would make sense to have a 14 team league . I'm guessing we will be at the bottom end most seasons , but that would be nothing particularly new and given our match attendance versus the likes of Leicester , Wasps etc that's probably to be expected. But with no risk of relegation it may encourage international players to venture north and also sponsors and kit deals to be signed for longer periods knowing they will be on show in the premiership the whole time .

Re: The future of the Championship
SimonG19 26 May, 2020 12:22
It's amazing how promotion changes views isn't it?

Re: The future of the Championship
stuart66 26 May, 2020 12:31
i don't think their is going to be greater sponsorship deals than what their is now. most clubs will not have the money or ambishon to bring in internathionals. the quality will fall and with it the gate money.

Re: The future of the Championship
dick g 27 May, 2020 08:57
For the reasons listed above, ringfencing will not be ideal. But with an effective wage cap, it might give us an affordable game. The way the game has gone since the advent of professionalism has been crazy and is proving unsustainable.

Even if we find ourselves in the bottom end of a ringfenced Prem, I for one will always believe in the chance of us finding a miracle as we did a few seasons ago.

Re: The future of the Championship
mannin 27 May, 2020 10:18
I don't think it would do rugby any harm if clubs started to play for the joy of the game as used to be the case. Have a professional top league and the rest as semi-pro/social. It can be revisited every 5 years or so to see if it's working but would give the pro clubs security and make sure the clubs outside the premiership didn't expand beyond their means in search of the big prize.

I don't agree that the quality would diminish either, it should allow the younger players to thrive and play a less turgid style of game which would definitely please most fans.

Re: The future of the Championship
stuart66 27 May, 2020 11:03
I think the professional experiment has failed and when the next season arrives I will be chosey as to which games I go too. I will proubly go to edinbourgh for European games as they take them more seriously than the falcons management. and European cup games mean more to me than the prem. I will mainly be going to durham and Northumberland 1 which offers me a lot more interest than the prem.

Re: The future of the Championship
Leipziger 27 May, 2020 11:46
Quote:
mannin
I don't think it would do rugby any harm if clubs started to play for the joy of the game as used to be the case. Have a professional top league and the rest as semi-pro/social. It can be revisited every 5 years or so to see if it's working but would give the pro clubs security and make sure the clubs outside the premiership didn't expand beyond their means in search of the big prize.
I don't agree that the quality would diminish either, it should allow the younger players to thrive and play a less turgid style of game which would definitely please most fans.

Playing more young English players couldn't not reduce the quality of games, for the simple fact that if a player like e.g. Morgan Passman was better than e.g. Sinoti, he'd already be in our first team. Clubs don't buy in good (or indeed mediocre), older foreigners because they are foreign and experienced, but because they think they are better than the current options.

Revisiting the situation every five years, allowing applications from Championship clubs who have built themselves up etc. are nice ideas. But lets not kid ourselves that a) if promotion becomes even less reliable and more difficult and subjective than it is now, that the Championship will see anything like sufficient outside investment, and b) if the trapdoor is closed, the cartel will ever allow it to be opened again.

Re: The future of the Championship
mannin 27 May, 2020 11:58
I'd argue that many of the imports to the Premiership are brought in purely due to the fact that they are experienced and have played abroad. Who knows how good Passman is? We've not seen him (ignoring the "Deano sees them every day" quotes).

There are the marquee names who bring quality and excitement (Piatau, Radradra, Skelton, Le Roux and the like) but there are also many more who could be replaced by academy players without much difference in quality in the long run (I don't mean straight away).

Re. the ring fencing itself, I agree there would be no way back for those clubs outside in reality but I still think you'd have to allow the potential for it to happen. If a multi-millionaire decided to buy his local club and pour his money into it, the club may become a feasible option.

Re: The future of the Championship
stuart66 27 May, 2020 12:11
What if the premiship brings in ringfencing and the other leagues don't want it? The rfu is owned by all the teams from the highest to the lowest leagues. Could the premiship be kicked out of the Rfu ?

Re: The future of the Championship
Leipziger 27 May, 2020 16:47
Quote:
mannin
I'd argue that many of the imports to the Premiership are brought in purely due to the fact that they are experienced and have played abroad. Who knows how good Passman is? We've not seen him (ignoring the "Deano sees them every day" quotes).
There are the marquee names who bring quality and excitement (Piatau, Radradra, Skelton, Le Roux and the like) but there are also many more who could be replaced by academy players without much difference in quality in the long run (I don't mean straight away).

Re. the ring fencing itself, I agree there would be no way back for those clubs outside in reality but I still think you'd have to allow the potential for it to happen. If a multi-millionaire decided to buy his local club and pour his money into it, the club may become a feasible option.

Quite, they are experienced and have played abroad, and rightly or wrongly, the recruiting DoR thinks that this player will contribute more to winning games than the young English alternative. That won't change.

Certainly some of the older foreign players brought into the Premiership (we've had a fair few ourselves) have been mediocre, but fact is that they are brought in because the DoRs think they are better than what they already have, and they naturally want the best team they can get. Ringfencing wouldn't change that. It's all fine well saying a team can build for the long term and the players will improve, but if we think about our first few years in the Premiership under Richards, how many DoRs would receive the patience Semore showed, especially if they were continually losing games with a team containing 10 academy lads?

Meanwhile, Exeter and Saracens (until this season but they haven't been relegated on the pitch) and a few other top clubs don't care about relegation because they are always at the top, so nothing will change in their squads. They'd just be even further ahead of the likes of us if the quality of our squad reduces.

As for some millionaire buying and building their local club, well maybe it would happen, but if we replace the current system with one where, you build the ground, build the team, win the Championship for a couple of years and then you can apply to some secretive RFU/Premiership Rugby committee for permission to join the Premiership, then not many people would risk their money on that. The Premiership could allow the potential for it promotion, but it'd only be a charade.

Sorry Mannin for keeping picking holes in your posts, enjoying the debate though :-)

Re: The future of the Championship
mannin 28 May, 2020 12:19
Not at all, I agree with most things you've said, I just don't agree that the average foreign players will continue to arrive or that owners will be too short-sighted in their thinking. No relegation should allow a long-term, patient build and will be the only way clubs like ours have any chance of competing in the top half, let alone the top of the table.

Re: The future of the Championship
bigfecker 28 May, 2020 12:22
What happens if ringfencing happens and clubs like Worcs, Falcons and Wasps go bust, as all 3 have a good chance of doing?

Re: The future of the Championship
limpopo 29 May, 2020 09:41
Quote:
bigfecker
What happens if ringfencing happens and clubs like Worcs, Falcons and Wasps go bust, as all 3 have a good chance of doing?

What does ringfencing have to do with the financial sustainability of those or any club?

Re: The future of the Championship
stuart66 29 May, 2020 10:01
Limpopo bigfecker question is what happens to the prem if teams go bust he did not say ringfenceing would caurse them to go bust

Re: The future of the Championship
limpopo 29 May, 2020 10:34
Sorry I must have misunderstood, let us hope that the situation does not arise, but if it should, then I imagine that other teams would be invited to take their place. This of course brings us back to question of whether professional rugby that we have now is sustainable, but that is another question.

Re: The future of the Championship
Getitright 30 May, 2020 20:03
There’s an article floating about regarding ring fencing in other sports namely Aussie rules, NBA and NFL I think.
Basically it suggests that the lack of fear over relegation allows investment with massively reduced risk. So creating a better business model.
We won’t get away from wealthy benefactors so it would allow them to use their funds within the agreed budgets to the overall benefit of the game. RFU certainly won’t be doing it for them!

Re: The future of the Championship
Getitright 30 May, 2020 20:09
Article was Owen Slot in The Times who suggests The most successful professionals sports leagues are closed.

Re: The future of the Championship
Leipziger 31 May, 2020 13:27
Quote:
Getitright
Article was Owen Slot in The Times who suggests The most successful professionals sports leagues are closed.

He must have only focused on the top 4.

Re: The future of the Championship
matt1il 01 June, 2020 21:29
Quote:
Getitright
Article was Owen Slot in The Times who suggests The most successful professionals sports leagues are closed.

Most successful in what terms? I don't know much about American leagues but is it down to the fact they're closed or are they successful because they are very much sports that are big in USA and not many other places?

Also don't they rely on a college system where players are picked/drafted by teams rather than teams picking players.

Re: The future of the Championship
Getitright 02 June, 2020 16:01
To put the article in context it was actually about Ireland and the Six Nations but their CEO comments were

Browne said that promotion and relegation were quirks of European sport, that they were damaging for the Premiership in England (PRL) and the Top 14 in France, and that there were better models to be found elsewhere in the world.

“The best professional sports in the world,” he said, “are all closed leagues, where you are able to effectively invest in your competition, invest in your facilities, invest in the infrastructure and invest in the players. AFL [Australian rules football], NBA and NFL are all closed leagues and they are the most successful professional sports.

Re: The future of the Championship
limpopo 02 June, 2020 16:48
True Getitright, this is something that I have said on these boards previously over a number of years, it has to happen if we are to have sustainable teams that owners and sponsors are willing to back. Drop down a league or two and watch the money disappear form sponsors and turnstiles.

Re: The future of the Championship
Leipziger 02 June, 2020 17:46
Quote:
Getitright
To put the article in context it was actually about Ireland and the Six Nations but their CEO comments were
Browne said that promotion and relegation were quirks of European sport, that they were damaging for the Premiership in England (PRL) and the Top 14 in France, and that there were better models to be found elsewhere in the world.

“The best professional sports in the world,” he said, “are all closed leagues, where you are able to effectively invest in your competition, invest in your facilities, invest in the infrastructure and invest in the players. AFL [Australian rules football], NBA and NFL are all closed leagues and they are the most successful professional sports.

Yet there in the top 10 is the football Premier League and other top European football leagues. People say that football is all about money, greed, etc. yet I've never heard any owners, directors or managers of Premier League clubs calling for it to be ringfenced.

Re: The future of the Championship
dick g 03 June, 2020 11:00
Quote:
matt1il
Quote:
Getitright
Article was Owen Slot in The Times who suggests The most successful professionals sports leagues are closed.

Most successful in what terms? I don't know much about American leagues but is it down to the fact they're closed or are they successful because they are very much sports that are big in USA and not many other places?

Also don't they rely on a college system where players are picked/drafted by teams rather than teams picking players.

Each year, NFL clubs choose players to recruit from a pool of the top college players. The club finishing bottom in the previous season has first choice. They will either sign the drafted players or sell them on to one of the bigger clubs.
The idea is to try and level things out so that the game is not dominated by a couple of clubs. I don't know if this works.

This is agsinst a background of there being no amateur gridiron outside the colleges.

So I don't think NFL provides a useful example for Prem Rugger. (Does anyone call it rugger these days?)

Re: The future of the Championship
Rafpilot2000 03 June, 2020 12:58
Not sure there is any reasonable comparison between rugby and football. As the fan base, crowd size and tv rights are completely different in figures. There are clubs in the football championship with 30,000 seat stadiums yet in the rugby championships , some clubs barely have a stand.
A ring fenced top tier works for a lot of sports and how it is managed can be refined.
I'm With the puritans in that I dont like idea but it is necessary .

Re: The future of the Championship
Getitright 03 June, 2020 16:05
Another anomaly in NFL is the volume of support for the college games 70K+ I believe at some?!

I think it all comes back to the argument of what makes the best and most sustainable financial model. I for one would not invest in top level rugby In its current form unless I was willing to lose a vast part of the investment and Ring fencing and salary caps can only assist the overall model.
It’s then difficult to compare the Championship as the gap is massive on all fronts whether financial, facilities or sustainability.
Drop another two leagues and it’s even worse as RFU contributes virtually nothing now.

It’s time RFU got a grip but that doesn’t appear likely anytime soon unfortunately.

Re: The future of the Championship
Rafpilot2000 03 June, 2020 17:45
The sad thing is that by slashing the funding to the championship , the RFU has already effectively placed a barrier around the Premiership, albeit a financial rather physical. It has always been a vast chasm to span , despite us managing to span the gap a couple of times.
The Saracens debacle has overshadowed the RFU but also acted as a distraction as the funding was cut.

Re: The future of the Championship
Northumbrian 03 June, 2020 19:25
County championship cricket is more or less closed. When has a club ever lost its first class status?


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