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3rd April 2020

RFU Confirmed Newcastle Falcons’ promotion to the Gallagher Premiership for the 2020-21 season


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Team 2020/21
Discussion started by DocA27 , 24 June, 2020 00:15
Team 2020/21
DocA27 24 June, 2020 00:15
My post a few minutes ago about Johnny Williams leaving left me thinking about the team we're actually going to be able to field whenever the flip we actually play a game, and how we can use the massive delay to boost our chances of being competitive.

1. The Team

Based on who we were playing at the end of the Championship season, this is who I see as our starting line up with top back ups (Yes I know some of this is covered in a stickied thread, but including it in a wider context), as well as some quick comment.

1. Lockwood/Davison --> Not prem standard
2. McGuigan/Blamire (?Cooper to return) --> Good depth with all 3 potential starters
3. Ah You/Welsh (if he ever gets fit) --> Just about prem standard props. Scrum will be a MAJOR issue if we head into the season without any additions.
4. Peterson/Barry --> Unproved at Prem level but very good in Champ. Some hope
5. Robinson/Montgomery --> Good starter. Although worry for lineout between those 2 starters. Montgomery has good potential
6. Wilson/Chick --> Basically the closest humanity has come to God since Matt Burke. Chick an excellent back up/occasional starter
7. Hardie/Welch --> Hardie excellent, Welch always solid.
8. Van Der Walt/Nagusa --> VdW never played at Prem level, didn't see enough in Champ. Nagusa utter liability last time he played at Prem level (knock ons, minimal impact, endless penalties).

9. Young/Stuart --> Just comprehensively not good enough. Not giving either young 9 game time was a colossal error.
10. Connon/Flood --> Connon finally started to show some of his potential and should be given first grab at the shirt. Flood always available if the s hits the fan.

11. Sinoti/Vuna --> Sinoti still capable of magic but past his prime, and often a big worry in kick defence. Vuna coming back from serious injury.
12. Flood/Stevenson? --> Flood probably a bit worrisome defensively at 12 at Prem level. Stevenson showed flashes but played on the wing. Some rumours of a Champ 12, but unproven at Prem level
13. Wacokecoke/???? --> One of the bright lights of the Champ, looking forward to him getting a run at Prem level. God knows who is else is playing 13.
14. Radwan/???? --> Radwan amazing. Which guarantees he'll leave soon. We have 3 listed full time wingers on the club website. The alternatives are Arscott and Tait. The alternatives give me palpitations.
15. Arscott/Tait --> Arscott good in Champ. But last year at Prem level a major liability. Tait is way way past his prime at this point. Excuse me whilst I go watch Josh Hodge highlights and cry.

From that: Front row very worrying, 2nd row depth worrying and unproven, Back row no worries, 9 disastrous, 10 potential, centres big worry both in terms of starting 12 and any depth. Wing major depth issues, 15 worrying.

That is not a good position to be in.

2. How can we use the delay.

So we can whinge and moan about not being able to play for ages. Or figure out how the hell we can use it to our advantage. And I'm thinking 2 very important things.
a) Fitness. Too many times in past years I've watched the team and the fitness levels haven't been where they should be. No excuse this year. The fitness regimen should be BRUTAL. These players should be coming into the season fitter than they have ever been. There is ZERO excuse for them not being as fit as possible.
b) Basic Skills. Along with fitness, continually our basic skills under pressure and when tired have been poor. Again an extended pre season gives a huge chance to correct this. If players can execute basic skills combined with brutal fitness sessions, we will improve.

Re: Team 2020/21
alas 24 June, 2020 00:55
You've missed out Gary Graham. Back five in the pack is the only art of the team that is premiership standard.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 24 June, 2020 09:48
Makes me wonder if ring fencing is coming in and we are aware of it. So we'll lower the wage bill and bring some more through from the academy.

Worcester seem to be doing the same...few signings, but loads of academy promotions.

As per the team.

Front row - Poor
Locks - Robinson is very good, the rest Unproven
Back row - Very Good

SH's: Poor, but lots of potential in the kids
FH': Flood past it...but Connon and Haydon Wood offer hope
Centres: Not prem class
Back 3: Radwan class, Passman offers hope...the rest past it.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 24 June, 2020 10:19
PS Team for next year....

1 Lockwood
2 McGuigan / Blamire
3 Ah You
4 Robinson
5 Peterson
6 Wilson
7 Welch
8 De Walt

9 Young
10 Flood
11 Sinoti
12 Wakecoke
13 Stevenson
14 Tait
15 Arscott

My team for next year
1 Lockwood
2 McGuigan / Blamire
3 Ah You
4 Robinson
5 Peterson
6 Wilson
7 Graham
8 De Walt

9 Kelemeti
10 Connon
11 Radwan
12 Joel Matavesi
13 Wackecoke
14 Vuna (Passman off the bench)
15 Stevenson



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/06/2020 10:52 by GeordieFalcon.

Re: Team 2020/21
DocA27 24 June, 2020 10:46
Quote:
GeordieFalcon
PS Team for next year....
1 Lockwood
2 McGuigan / Blamire
3 Ah You
4 Robinson
5 Peterson
6 Wilson
7 Welch
8 De Walt

9 Young
10 Flood
11 Sinoti
12 Wakecoke
13 Stevenson
14 Tait
15 Arscott

My team for next year
1 Lockwood
2 McGuigan / Blamire
3 Ah You
4 Robinson
5 Peterson
6 Wilson
7 Graham
8 De Walt

9 Kelemeti
10 Connon
11 Radwan
12 Josh Matavesi
13 Wackecoke
14 Vuna (Passman off the bench)
15 Stevenson

Matavesi left the club a fair few months ago! Agree with Cam N-K as starting 9. Has Stevenson ever played 15? Hardie has to start.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 24 June, 2020 10:52
Sorry meant Joel....his younger brother.

Re: Team 2020/21
Leipziger 24 June, 2020 10:53
I see nobody's mentioned Joel Hodgson, who would be my choice to start at 10 with Connon on the bench and starting cup games.

Cameron NK has barely played for the first team, is he really ready to be our starting 9 straight away in the Premiership? Although I suppose it depends how desperate you are to keep Micky Young out of the team.

Re: Team 2020/21
stuart66 24 June, 2020 10:56
doc maybe geordief nows something more than us as their is some confussion on the bath forum as too wether or not matavesi has left their club

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 24 June, 2020 10:56
Leipy,

If Young is able to open up and play the attacking game we want then fine. No issues.

Id keep Joel on the bench now...push Connon and Haydon Wood through.

Re: Team 2020/21
FalcDancer 24 June, 2020 13:24
With a couple of additions we have a good pack
Our backs however look light of quality as things stands
It’s quite depressing

Re: Team 2020/21
Siders 24 June, 2020 14:17
I actually think our first XV doesnt look too bad. Its just the lack of depth that is a real worry.

Re: Team 2020/21
FalcDancer 24 June, 2020 14:25
Quote:
Siders
I actually think our first XV doesnt look too bad. Its just the lack of depth that is a real worry.

We don’t have any proven quality premiership centres

Re: Team 2020/21
Rogerandout 24 June, 2020 14:58
I think that we still have 4 recognised centres at the club in Owen, Lucock, Wakakeoke & Stevenson.
In addition Flood played 12 a bit last year and I seem to recall he has played between 10&12 throughout his career.
Vuna was playing in the 13 shirt in the World Cup last year.
So whilst we aren’t blessed with Proven Premiership players we have what I expect us to have in our financial position.
Some players who have been the real deal and are perhaps a bit past it. In addition some younger players who we hope will prove to be the real deal.
It is going to be tough but if our coaches have nurtured the right players, trained them skill wise, got them as fit and strong as possible. Got a bit of siege mentality/bloody minded togetherness then we will be fine.
Brian Clough didn’t sign superstar players and they were the best team in Europe.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 24 June, 2020 15:18
Quote:
FalcDancer
Quote:
Siders
I actually think our first XV doesnt look too bad. Its just the lack of depth that is a real worry.

We don’t have any proven quality premiership centres

I guess theres only one way to test them...and that Lucock looks not a bad player if we have signed him at 12.

Joel Matavesi - Big lad, skilled, probably more a 10 than 12 though
Gareth Owen - Not prem standard
Ben Stevenson - Unproven - only one way to find out
Wakecoke - Unproven - Only one way to find out
Charlie Wilson - The pick of the lot really...currently at UNI. Cracking potential
Chindera Obonna - Further behind at the moment but a real propsect. Big lad.

I think we'll see Flood, Wakecoke, Stevenson and Lucock as the centres next season

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 24 June, 2020 15:24
Yes i keep forgetting about Cooper Vuna...he could be a very important player to us. Similar to Sinoti...a powerful, aggressive player who can play wing and centre.

Re: Team 2020/21
Pool_falcon 25 June, 2020 06:20
Good assessment of where we currently are Doc.

I just wish we could retain our promising younger players like Sale seem to do. It has been a major issue with Deano's tenure for me, that and the poor style of rugby obviously (for the most).

Re: Team 2020/21
FalcDancer 25 June, 2020 07:34
Quote:
GeordieFalcon
Quote:
FalcDancer
Quote:
Siders
I actually think our first XV doesnt look too bad. Its just the lack of depth that is a real worry.

We don’t have any proven quality premiership centres

I guess theres only one way to test them...and that Lucock looks not a bad player if we have signed him at 12.

Joel Matavesi - Big lad, skilled, probably more a 10 than 12 though
Gareth Owen - Not prem standard
Ben Stevenson - Unproven - only one way to find out
Wakecoke - Unproven - Only one way to find out
Charlie Wilson - The pick of the lot really...currently at UNI. Cracking potential
Chindera Obonna - Further behind at the moment but a real propsect. Big lad.

I think we'll see Flood, Wakecoke, Stevenson and Lucock as the centres next season

I am all for giving youth its chance. I think Wacokecoke has earned his opportunity. He was fantastic in the championship but he needs an experienced proven player on his shoulder helping him along not just dropping him in the deep end, same goes for Connon. Flood could be that man. He was doing so in the Championship but outside of Toby there’s very little else
Also Lucock has just missed a full season with an ACL injury

Re: Team 2020/21
stuart66 25 June, 2020 08:06
i dont think we have a team for the prem but i dont think we are that far off and i trust and hope dean will have the time and ability too put a team together that will survive . im far more worryed about the coaching team with wells gone

Re: Team 2020/21
pityacker 25 June, 2020 09:03
All Falcons players are furloughed and possibly could be for some time therefore unless they were desperate for a contract who would sign up to go on furlough ?.

Re: Team 2020/21
matt1il 25 June, 2020 10:57
Quote:
pityacker
All Falcons players are furloughed and possibly could be for some time therefore unless they were desperate for a contract who would sign up to go on furlough ?.

Isn't it more fundamental that you can't sign (or hire) someone and them put them on furlough? So if we signed someone we'd be paying them without any games coming up.

(I presume this is the rule, I do not know)

Re: Team 2020/21
alas 25 June, 2020 11:03
Doesn't look like the Falcons will be playing any non friendlies before Nov/Dec while Saracens will be playing in 2 leagues at the same time. [www.bbc.co.uk]

Re: Team 2020/21
Benpj17 25 June, 2020 11:06
You can’t put new people on furlough any more the deadline passed a few weeks ago, you can still extend people’s current furlough though

Re: Team 2020/21
matt1il 25 June, 2020 11:10
Quote:
alas
Doesn't look like the Falcons will be playing any non friendlies before Nov/Dec while Saracens will be playing in 2 leagues at the same time. [www.bbc.co.uk]

Ha, nice to see them comment on Saracens playing in 3 competitions, but no mention of their other club playing in none! How bloody typical!

Re: Team 2020/21
markismith50 25 June, 2020 11:15
There’s no date for the Championship’s return yet.

You don’t need to ‘extend furlough’ as such, for anyone already on furlough you just leave them as they are, unless you want to bring them back in, either part time or full time. Part time working can begin from July 1, full time work can begin any time.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 25 June, 2020 16:31
Do people think its personnel that is the issue...or the style / tactics, way we play the game?

Personally i think too often its the pace and direction we play is too static, slow. We dont offer support, running on the shoulder, or running from the correct angles, at pace from deep hitting gaps.

Ive said countless times on here, that i believe we DO have the players (regardless of financial situations) yet we dont play in a way we should.

Its all about Pace! Speed of thought...etc.

Re: Team 2020/21
DocA27 25 June, 2020 18:24
Quote:
GeordieFalcon
Do people think its personnel that is the issue...or the style / tactics, way we play the game?
Personally i think too often its the pace and direction we play is too static, slow. We dont offer support, running on the shoulder, or running from the correct angles, at pace from deep hitting gaps.

Ive said countless times on here, that i believe we DO have the players (regardless of financial situations) yet we dont play in a way we should.

Its all about Pace! Speed of thought...etc.

I think it’s a combo of both. We can argue to the world‘s end about the players and who or who isn’t good enough. But is there anyone on here who doesn’t agree our tactics under Deano have regularly been horrendous. It was by far the main reason we were relegated. Slow, zero imagination in back play, 1 phase and kick away (usually poorly), basically waiting for a wing to do something magic.

I still remember with horror the Leicester game last season. Most important game of the season. Win and we are in pole position to stay up. And then we come out and spend the first 30 minutes kicking the ball to George Ford. Then we start running, score 2 tries, get right back in the game.
Then back to kicking the ball to George Ford.

Re: Team 2020/21
stuart66 25 June, 2020 18:42
the thing i remember the most about that game was apoligising to some leister fans for the language and atmosphire. their kids where terrified and crying. kingston park is almost allways a horrible place to be when ever their is more than 8000. i have heard the same from people in the south and west stand

Re: Team 2020/21
Leipziger 25 June, 2020 20:40
Quote:
Pool_falcon
Good assessment of where we currently are Doc.
I just wish we could retain our promising younger players like Sale seem to do. It has been a major issue with Deano's tenure for me, that and the poor style of rugby obviously (for the most).

Sale can offer more money, regular Champions Cup rugby, possibly a clearer path into the national team and they are in a better-known city.

Quote:
stuart66
i dont think we have a team for the prem but i dont think we are that far off and i trust and hope dean will have the time and ability too put a team together that will survive . im far more worryed about the coaching team with wells gone

Never thought I'd read that, considering the stick Wells has got on this board over the years.

Re: Team 2020/21
aidanb 26 June, 2020 09:07
Quote:
Leipziger
Quote:
Pool_falcon
Good assessment of where we currently are Doc.
I just wish we could retain our promising younger players like Sale seem to do. It has been a major issue with Deano's tenure for me, that and the poor style of rugby obviously (for the most).

Sale can offer more money, regular Champions Cup rugby, possibly a clearer path into the national team and they are in a better-known city.

Quote:
stuart66
i dont think we have a team for the prem but i dont think we are that far off and i trust and hope dean will have the time and ability too put a team together that will survive . im far more worryed about the coaching team with wells gone

Never thought I'd read that, considering the stick Wells has got on this board over the years.

Wells did get some stick but he hasn’t come in for the grief that Mike Ford has with a label of snake and then that being backed up by a couple of others as well.

Re: Team 2020/21
mannin 26 June, 2020 10:54
I think we HAD the players to play good rugby GF, but I don't think we do now.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 26 June, 2020 11:07
i think we need a whole refresh of the coaching team.

New ideas, new style, new tactics. Lineout work, scrum work...

Re: Team 2020/21
limpopo 26 June, 2020 12:18
Dean comes in for a lot of stick on here about his tactics, for example to Leicester game is cited again. However from what we are told repeatedly, he does no coaching, therefore it must be the coaches who are to blame. Either he does or he doesn't if the latter perhaps another scapegoat should be sought.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 26 June, 2020 12:34
Quote:
limpopo
Dean comes in for a lot of stick on here about his tactics, for example to Leicester game is cited again. However from what we are told repeatedly, he does no coaching, therefore it must be the coaches who are to blame. Either he does or he doesn't if the latter perhaps another scapegoat should be sought.

It doesnt actualy concern me whether Dean coaches or not. Ultimately he must give the instructions to his coaches.

If they are implementing perfectly what he wants...then my concern is with Dean. If they are not what he has instructed..and the coaches arent delivering then why isnt he changing his coaches?

My biggest grip is the lack of pace, speed of thought, angles of running and support as a unit / team.

You can teach school kids that...so why do we play ponderous side to side shuffle the ball on rugby?

How often does Toby Flood, just pass the ball 1m to the man next to him standing still?

When you have someone like Sinoti on the wing...he should be a dream to play with. He actually comes looking for the ball!
Either put him in the gaps between players...or be on his shoulder coming through like a steam train for the offload wen he has 3 players on top of him...but how often have we ever seen that? Similar to Goneva. Its like they're expected to do all the magic themselves.

I had my issues with Hammersley...about end product but....how often did players follow his mazy runs or anticipate where he was going,in order to run an angle and take the offload from him??

The only one i saw do that regularly was Takulua...and we know he was a good player!

Its not such a difficult game. Yet by god at times we make it look like we are running in mud!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/06/2020 12:39 by GeordieFalcon.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 26 June, 2020 13:20
Quote:
mannin
I think we HAD the players to play good rugby GF, but I don't think we do now.

Ah im in two minds. Sometimes i look at the squad and would agree with you, but then at other times i think...
Ok our scrum is poor...HOWEVER how many scrums are there in a game (as long as the oppo doesnt smash us continuously)

What we do have is fit, fast back 5's etc. Our backrowers are very good! We should be playing a quick ball game.
When you have Wilson, Welch, Hardie, Graham, Chick, De Walt, Negusa, and hookers like Blamire, Mcguigan, Cooper you need to be playing a more open fast paced game, smashing the breakdown quickly, giving quick ball. Not a sludge fest we see game after game.

If you do that...then you can bring Sinoti, and Vuna off the wing in to the middle, commiting defenders, creating offload situations, for the likes of Radwan, Young etc to run off.

Wakecoke showed some good stuff in the championship...we need to simply play him in the Prem. See how he goes. Also, Connon looked a faster 10 than Flood. Stevenson will develop, he has some pace and Joel Matavesi looks a big lump with decent hands.

For me its about the style...and gearing it to the players we have. What we lack in individual ability, we can make up for in collective awareness and knowledge of the game plan.

I know im simplfying things a little TOO much...when defences dominate etc but at present we dont look like we even train for a fast paced approach on the pitch. And that is ludicrous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/06/2020 13:22 by GeordieFalcon.

Re: Team 2020/21
mannin 26 June, 2020 13:48
I completely agree. In all sport, if you don't have the personnel to compete you have to take a different approach to the game coaching/tactics wise than the others do. Sadly we don't.

Re: Team 2020/21
Rogerandout 26 June, 2020 14:02
Agree with those sentiments significantly. We have more pace and less size than some of our competitors looking at next season’s squad. So play with pace and train to make other teams uncomfortable with it. Quick scrums line outs. Use the ball quickly from scrums. Japan played to their strength and it worked for them. We must play to our strengths.

Re: Team 2020/21
limpopo 26 June, 2020 14:07
I respect your argument GF, but it does not necessarily follow that Dean instructs his coaches how to coach, that would seem a pointless exercise to me why employ coaches? However I have always never understood the tactic of kicking the ball into the hands of the opposition, I watched it happen deep into the opponents half from a well known scrum half that has been favoured over, IMHO a far better one Takalua, who went to pastures new.

Re: Team 2020/21
DocA27 26 June, 2020 14:09
This is what I was referring to with fitness and basic skills. If we take the extra time before matches start again to make the team fit as they can be, basic skills that can function at high pace and when fatigued, then we have a chance.

If we wander into yet another season looking like we’ve never played together, half the team have forgotten how to catch and they’re all gassed by 60 minutes, then we’re screwed.

Re: Team 2020/21
Leipziger 26 June, 2020 14:53
Quote:
limpopo
I respect your argument GF, but it does not necessarily follow that Dean instructs his coaches how to coach, that would seem a pointless exercise to me why employ coaches? However I have always never understood the tactic of kicking the ball into the hands of the opposition, I watched it happen deep into the opponents half from a well known scrum half that has been favoured over, IMHO a far better one Takalua, who went to pastures new.

I expect Richards will set the strategy and tactics, and then it'll be up to the coaches to do the training that will implement this. Like a CEO who sets the direction of a company, and delegates the task of making it happen.

I agree about kicking the ball to the opposition to a certain extent. There's nothing wrong with this tactic if it's done well and followed by a good chase, it can be a good source of territory and broken field possession, but a kick-and-don't-chase is nonsense and is something we've suffered from on and off since Rob Andrew's time. Too often it results in a return to the same area of the pitch, just the opposition have the ball instead of us.

As for certain scrum-halves, I thought Takulua used to box-kick as much as Young over the last two seasons, just nobody seemed to get into a tizzy about him.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 26 June, 2020 15:35
I agree, i think Takalua did kick as much as Young...its clearly a tactic...and one that can be very effective...but in our case is SO overused thats its just become predictable.

Limpopo, i would expect that Dean is the man who makes the final call on how he wants the game played and his deputies are the ones who implement it on the training field and ultimately in the game.

Either way, as per my posts above, you can see i dont completely agree with them.

PS please note i dont expect 7's style fijian rugby for 80 mins either....

Re: Team 2020/21
FalcDancer 26 June, 2020 15:50
Our box kicking has been too slow and allowed the opposition to be prepared for the ball. No element of surprise

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 26 June, 2020 15:57
And overused Falc...the whole of KP knows whats coming every time...so clearly the opposition do aswell.

Re: Team 2020/21
stuart66 26 June, 2020 16:35
when young came the box kick was the only thing he seem to be able to do and we had no kick chase . his game has developed since then but he still has the reputation of box kick mickey. Takalua was a much better box kicker the problem is that the kick chase is not as good but i think it has improved over the last 2 seasons from what i have seen

Re: Team 2020/21
markismith50 26 June, 2020 18:15
The new extreme interpretation of the ruck laws being trialled in NZ will inevitably bring more kicking, because teams won’t want the ball inside their own half for fear of giving away a kickable penalty or penaltouche opportunity.

Re: Team 2020/21
GeordieFalcon 26 June, 2020 18:57
I dont think people mind the kicks Mark...if they are used wisely, and effectively.

Im sure i saw stats that over the last few years the All blacks have been the highest kicking team...but they make them effective.

I think its just that quite a few at KP felt that the kick was the default play...if in doubt kick.

Re: Team 2020/21
markismith50 26 June, 2020 19:15
More and more teams won’t want the ball in their own half if these interpretations become global. It’s something fans should get used to.

And to be clear, the coaches certainly don’t encourage bad kicking and bad chasing!

Re: Team 2020/21
Barry555 26 June, 2020 19:29
Getting caught out from your try line to the 10 meter line you’re just going to concede points. Especially with defensive pressure teams place on the opposition it’s very wise to not get turned over in your own half so I totally understand the kicking.

However I agree with fellow posters on here that some of the actual execution of the kick and chase has been pretty bad over the seasons.

Off the top of my head Bristol like to play a bit more out of their own half then most. Anyone notice any other teams that do it?

Re: Team 2020/21
Osric 27 June, 2020 09:53
It's interesting watching the NZ stuff. Players are struggling to adapt to their new laws and the penalty count seems high. They've also had a flurry of drop goals, not their usual style.

Re: Team 2020/21
Oneforthefatboys 27 June, 2020 13:03
We cannot blame Dean, prior to hi £1 million budget cut we got to fourth. If he had that extra million then he would have been able to replace Lawson, Vickers, Hogg, Latu, Watson etc with some quality, which would have kept us up. Can’t blame semore as he saved the club years ago

Re: Team 2020/21
Oneforthefatboys 27 June, 2020 13:07
Depending on fitness of ah you and welsh and if lugo stays, we will have a good pack. Probably could do with an international class second row. I think we definitely need a centre, wing and full back that are all quality players

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