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How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Discussion started by Boooo , 05 November, 2019 13:21
How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Boooo 05 November, 2019 13:21
Just wondering what the knock-on effect has been.
What have been consequences we have (and maybe havenít) considered.

I imagine their actions have pushed up playersí wages for other clubs.
Agents now demanding more.
Ticket prices for fans?
Unfair competition
Encouraged players to leave competing clubs, thereby disrupting clubs squad evolution

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
CovKid40 05 November, 2019 13:36
It is impossible to quantify any of that and as such i don't think we should even try, lets just make sure they are playing this season under the same restrictions as everybody else or it just makes a mockery of the salary cap, just imagine a team in the league that has been found to be cheating for at least 3 seasons being allowed to carry on, the fine Wray can afford, with their current squad a 35 points deduction won't get them relegated and there is even a chance they would still make top four as i think this season lots of teams will be taking points off each other, for me i don't care if on appeal the fine is reduced or at a push the points deduction is reduced but what must happen is this years squad is dismantled to bring it under the salary cap.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
FishingWasp 05 November, 2019 14:02
The breaking of the cap must have been in the interests of rugby as a whole !! After all, from Saracens statement


"...Furthermore, it is the Clubís belief that the Panelís narrow interpretation of the regulations is detrimental to player welfare across the league and is damaging the development of elite level rugby in the UK.

Saracens is proud of its pioneering, innovative approach to player welfare, developing their talents and supporting their entrepreneurial spirit for life beyond rugby."

Now where's the irony imojie ? (Sm122)

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
DrHankPym(superhero) 05 November, 2019 14:41
Quote:
Boooo
Just wondering what the knock-on effect has been.
What have been consequences we have (and maybe havenít) considered.

I imagine their actions have pushed up playersí wages for other clubs.
Agents now demanding more.
Ticket prices for fans?
Unfair competition
Encouraged players to leave competing clubs, thereby disrupting clubs squad evolution

I don't Sarries misdemeanours cause Bristol to Piutua £900k a season or Nathan £600k a season or Saints to pay Biggar £600k or whatever fee we're paying Fekitoa (around £600k at least).

The main way Sarries have affected the league is by cherry picking the top talent from their rivals, dating back to the glorious times of the indentikit press releases (which were mocked by fans of other clubs).



If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
wombles222 05 November, 2019 15:36
My heart goes out to the Sarries fans, all the hard earned money they have placed into their club and all they have achieved has just been torpeedoed by this finding. It will have huge ramifications on and off the field and the club tarnished for a very long time. I know how much it would hurt if we were to of done the same.

I also feel for fans of other clubs such as ours. Sarries generated a situation where they unlevelled the playing field and could rest and rotate high performing, international proven players for Europe and the Premiership, whilst the rest of us rightly utilised our squad, which naturally would not of been to the same level. This impact on results will of had a influence over all teams in the league, not only in final positions in the play offs, trophies won, but also finishing in the top 6 or influencing relegated teams! Although they have a wonderful academy to be proud of it also allowed them to pick up high performing players from other teams to supplement their own due to how they "managed" the financial package.

The ramifications of what Wray et al at the top have done is truely shocking, he wanted to win at all costs, build something special, however he has now gone and hurt a lot of people from this!

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
MarchingIn 05 November, 2019 15:42
I think the real damage is to the hopes and aspirations of other clubs. We've all been playing for a maybe 20-30% chance of beating them in the playoffs/final for the past 3-4 years, and we've all known it.

What does that do to enthusiasm, ability to attract and keep new fans, crowd numbers etc? It can ONLY be a negative.

They made the European and Premiership finals in 2014, and lost both, the latter incredibly narrowly to a Saints try when the clock was dead. Ever since then, they have got stronger and stronger until looking almost invincible in England. When you faced Exeter in the 2017 final, only a try in the 79th minute got Exeter past Sarries, that try is the only thing that has separated them from total dominance.

Let's imagine Wray never showed up with his pot of dosh and Sarrries were a Championship side. The Premiership would have been totally different for the last several years and success would most likely have been shared around far more. Our whole sport could be better and stronger.

The damage done to English club rugby by Nigel Wray is massive in my book.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
DrHankPym(superhero) 05 November, 2019 16:23
Quote:
MarchingIn
I think the real damage is to the hopes and aspirations of other clubs. We've all been playing for a maybe 20-30% chance of beating them in the playoffs/final for the past 3-4 years, and we've all known it.
What does that do to enthusiasm, ability to attract and keep new fans, crowd numbers etc? It can ONLY be a negative.

They made the European and Premiership finals in 2014, and lost both, the latter incredibly narrowly to a Saints try when the clock was dead. Ever since then, they have got stronger and stronger until looking almost invincible in England. When you faced Exeter in the 2017 final, only a try in the 79th minute got Exeter past Sarries, that try is the only thing that has separated them from total dominance.

Let's imagine Wray never showed up with his pot of dosh and Sarrries were a Championship side. The Premiership would have been totally different for the last several years and success would most likely have been shared around far more. Our whole sport could be better and stronger.

The damage done to English club rugby by Nigel Wray is massive in my book.

Sarries could have saved themselves that hassle if they'd put out a stronger team against us in the final game of the season. Even then they were leading for the first 20 mins of the game. Win that and they'd have topped the league and in all probability beaten us in the semi's (as we'd have finished 3rd).

Oh well we got done over in the final regardless thanks to that 50/50 (in Wasps fans eyes) penalty.



If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Andy1210 05 November, 2019 16:30
No doubt Sarries have done some excellent things with their player welfare and bringing through youngsters, but a lot of that success has been underpinned by being able to rotate players of an extremely high quality, and ultimately the youngsters haven't experienced the really big occasions, such as finals, and semi finals because they just rolled out their Lions. There didn't seem to be an end to their acquistions.

The fact they had got away with cherry picking the best talent around the country for so long actually forces the original club to look overseas, and having to rely on journeymen or take a gamble on foreign players that are more expensive. Concentrating the best English players at one club dilutes the competition - the biggest outcome of the cheating being how dull and predictable the competition has become. I think CVC had some input in this as they want their investment to be a viable competition, and the showpiece final is going to lose attraction if it's Saracens rolling over the latest pretenders every year. Just look at how we've replaced Daly - bringing in Fekitoa at the back end of his career no doubt on a decent salary.

They bagged Billy from us and this season Daly (which raised a few eyebrows), and they were after Launchers for a while but he stuck with us. All would take some replacing and were investments we made in our future. Ironic how Sarries then brag about their academy graduates and how tough it would be to lose them.

Ultimately it's affected the integrity and appeal of the Premiership. I wonder how Exeter feel as runners up to proven cheats? I do feel for their dedicated, long serving fans, but not for the increasing number of hanger-on fans jumping on the bandwagon.

As I mooted on another thread though, I can't help thinking this is just a load of posturing from Prem rugby because they knew there would be an appeal on both counts, and that this will run on past the season end and ultimately have no effect.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
MarchingIn 05 November, 2019 19:42
Quote:
Andy1210
The fact they had got away with cherry picking the best talent around the country for so long actually forces the original club to look overseas, and having to rely on journeymen or take a gamble on foreign players that are more expensive.

They bagged Billy from us and this season Daly (which raised a few eyebrows), and they were after Launchers for a while but he stuck with us. All would take some replacing and were investments we made in our future. Ironic how Sarries then brag about their academy graduates and how tough it would be to lose them

The one that sticks in my mind is Alex Lozowski. He was a breakthrough player for you set to be the next big thing. I seem to remember him mainly playing at 10?

He went to Salarycens for the start of the 2016/17 season in good enough form to get the England call from Eddie Jones and 5 caps.

What's he done since? Sarries have turned him into a squad player who seems to be 3rd or 4th choice at centre.

For all they are lauded for player development, that one hasn't worked out. I'd wish I'd stayed put if I was him.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Bracken&Macken 05 November, 2019 19:45
They were after Launchers, you don't think that then pushed the price up we had to pay to keep him?

That then pushes up the price we have to pay to keep Gaskell, Rowlands etc.

What's most gutting about this is the European Semi we lost at Reading, we had a very solid side that year who could have had a good shot at a one off final if we weren't knocked out by the cheats.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
John Tee 05 November, 2019 19:48
MASSIVELY...and for that the squad should be dismantled and the club relegated.

Key personel should be banned from owning or running clubs imv.

What they have been caught doing has cheated the game for years...

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Wilberforce 05 November, 2019 20:35
Quote:
MarchingIn
I think the real damage is to the hopes and aspirations of other clubs. We've all been playing for a maybe 20-30% chance of beating them in the playoffs/final for the past 3-4 years, and we've all known it.
What does that do to enthusiasm, ability to attract and keep new fans, crowd numbers etc? It can ONLY be a negative.

They made the European and Premiership finals in 2014, and lost both, the latter incredibly narrowly to a Saints try when the clock was dead. Ever since then, they have got stronger and stronger until looking almost invincible in England. When you faced Exeter in the 2017 final, only a try in the 79th minute got Exeter past Sarries, that try is the only thing that has separated them from total dominance.

Let's imagine Wray never showed up with his pot of dosh and Sarrries were a Championship side. The Premiership would have been totally different for the last several years and success would most likely have been shared around far more. Our whole sport could be better and stronger.

The damage done to English club rugby by Nigel Wray is massive in my book.

This is the key thing. The main cost to fans is not financial, it is that our teams have been denied a fair crack at silverware.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Boooo 05 November, 2019 21:03
I wonder how much the sports agents have been complicit in all this?

They must have been in cahoots with Saracens.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
jojo 06 November, 2019 09:52
Just as an aside and as I understand it.

Sarries fined £5.4million approx for 3 years misdemeanours.

That's an average of £1.8million per year ash.

Regs say £3 fine for every £1 overspend on salary cap.

That means Sarries have only been overspending by £600 k per year.

How many players of their quality would they have to jettison to bring that down?

2 or 3 that's not going to dismantle their squad.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
DrHankPym(superhero) 06 November, 2019 10:29
I think the assumption (perhaps naively) is that Sarries are under the cap for this season.

They had already jettisoned a few older players and promoted players from their academy.

Also lets not forget they're paying Daly less money then we were (Sm14)



If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
neils 06 November, 2019 10:45
Quote:
DrHankPym(superhero)
I think the assumption (perhaps naively) is that Sarries are under the cap for this season.
They had already jettisoned a few older players and promoted players from their academy.

Also lets not forget they're paying Daly less money then we were (Sm14)

I don't think that is the assumption. They have been found guilty for the last THREE years but this year is not assessed until June 2020. I suspect (but find it unbelievable) that it is up to the club whether they adjust before the next review.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
DrHankPym(superhero) 06 November, 2019 11:08
Quote:
neils
I don't think that is the assumption. They have been found guilty for the last THREE years but this year is not assessed until June 2020. I suspect (but find it unbelievable) that it is up to the club whether they adjust before the next review.

I'm mainly going by what was on Eggchasers podcast this week, which they seem to think that Sarries are under for this season. Though looking at it logically it would hard to know the full accounts for this season's teams.



If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Poking With Sticks 06 November, 2019 12:18
Quote:
Boooo
I wonder how much the sports agents have been complicit in all this?
They must have been in cahoots with Saracens.

Sarries don't deal with agents, do they?

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
SimonG19 06 November, 2019 14:11
With regard to the original question I have been absolutely convinced that Saracens have been guilty of cheating since they paid a settlement fee to stop the first inquiry from proceeding. As such I have considered the Premiership to be a corrupt competition but I want to watch top rugby. Therefore I have watched all the games I can but have deliberately not watched any games involving the Cheats.

My view is that the Cheats are still cheating this season but at least they won't be able to profit from it and we can have genuine champions for the first time in a few years which will be an improvement.

Hopefully next season the Cheats will not still be cheating and we can at last have an honest competition.

But we should long remember for how long the Cheats poisoned the league for the clubs, the players and the supporters.

Re: How have Sarries misdemeanours affected rugby fans?
Man From Wick 06 November, 2019 15:41
Same here, I haven't watched a game involving the Cheats for 3-4 years. At least now my choice has been vindicated.

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