Latest news:

Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2
Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Discussion started by AlecW , 05 November, 2019 11:02
Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
AlecW 05 November, 2019 11:02
BBC website

Wow!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 11:04 by AlecW.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
FrTed 05 November, 2019 11:10
..... and they will still finish above LI

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Shropshire Hugh 05 November, 2019 11:15
Wait for 3 years of appeals!!



Living in the Ionian Isles so just lurking when wifi allows!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
ExiledChameleon 05 November, 2019 11:32
Now where are the investigations into Gloucester, Harlequins, and Bath?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2019 11:33 by ExiledChameleon.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Foggy-Balla 05 November, 2019 11:36
Quote:
FrTed
..... and they will still finish above LI

Unless they’re made to reduce the playing roster to bring in below the cap. Mind you if this has been going on as long as suspected the Saffercens players can probably afford a few seasons on no salary...



Faugh-a-Ballagh!

"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Ecksile 05 November, 2019 11:50
Statement from Saracens

and from Nigel Wray

Do we get our points back from last weekend? (Sm14)

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
jimbo800 05 November, 2019 11:51
In most sports, if you’ve found to win from illegal means, the medals are taken away. Will this be the case with Sarries? Will they have winning prize money taken away? Or is the fine just Prem Rugby’s way of getting their money back from them?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Ecksile 05 November, 2019 11:57
Presumably still breaking the salary cap at the moment, so the sanction for 2019-20 is.......?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 12:46
They’ll have to be within the cap I assume so will have to either offload players or reduce their wages - players will have to be released I imagine to stay within cap

Feel for the supporters and players

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
nimblehippo 05 November, 2019 12:49
Might mean relegation is off the table, just to be safe. English Rugby would not want Sarries to get relegated.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Ajax Treesdown 05 November, 2019 12:50
Quote:
HMRH
They’ll have to be within the cap I assume so will have to either offload players or reduce their wages - players will have to be released I imagine to stay within cap
Feel for the supporters and players

Feel for the supporters and players who have enjoyed 4 league Titles and 3 European cups in the last 5 years whilst breaking the rules?

Zero sympathy.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 12:55
They believed they were within the rules - Wray kept telling them that. Also I imagine thE players let go will be to keep the Top players so they’re also unwitting victims.

Agree they cheated and deserve the punishment just think a lot of people impact red who aren’t being paid outside the cap

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 05 November, 2019 13:07
Quote:
They believed they were within the rules - Wray kept telling them that.

That's their own fault for believing it then

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
x_ile 05 November, 2019 13:27
Having a squad of the strength of that playing for Saracens should surely have raised a few eyebrows even among the most blinkered and devoted of Saracens' supporters. They can't all be blind.
It's all very well to say that players play for the glory but I've never heard it said that glory pays any bills. (Sm55)

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 05 November, 2019 13:29
It also isn't the end of the world to win four or five Premierships and three Heineken Cups and then spend one season finishing 10th...

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 14:00
So how Many players will they have to release I wonder?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
paulm1953 05 November, 2019 14:04
It wont happen. Saracens will appeal.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 05 November, 2019 14:21
They may appeal but they'll still get some points deducted and some sort of fine

As long as they are forced to change their ways and the playing field is levelled slightly then does it really matter?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 14:22
They’ll appeal but limited scope for that to be successful

“Under the regulations, Saracens have the ability to seek a review of the decision by an arbitration body. The review can only be on the basis that there has been an error of law, the decision is irrational or that there has been some procedural unfairness.”

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 14:23
They’ll have to drop players to stay in the cap this season regardless of outcome of the appeal

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Florida 05 November, 2019 14:26
Quote:
HMRH
They’ll have to drop players to stay in the cap this season regardless of outcome of the appeal

Well, technically they don't need to drop players, just close down these co-investments. They're within the cap without those.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 14:36
That’ll mean a number of their best players taking a haircut which I assume they won’t want to do . tTo pay them the same they’ll need to reduce their overall salary spend by releasing players was my thinking

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Exile_Dave 05 November, 2019 14:38
No sympathy for the cheating @#$%&



I'd rather be a Paddy than a Quin!!

C'mon the boys in Green!!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Shawshank 05 November, 2019 14:57
At least some of the investments appear to be investment property.

Wiggy9 Investments Ltd

If they 'realise' the Investments then presumably the player (who looks to own between 50-75% of the investment) will make even more moolah, that presumably should then be accounted for within this season's Salary Cap.

This could run and run.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SimonG19 05 November, 2019 15:08
Quote:
paulm1953
It wont happen. Saracens will appeal.

Nah they don't appeal to me. Cheats never appeal to me and Saracens now are officially cheats.

What a wonderful day for those who want an honest competition.

Now take away the titles they won by cheating.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Props are not stupid 05 November, 2019 15:17
I think Sarries defense will be about what constitutes a salary and what is considered gifts. So if Farrell has a salary of £300k, one sponsor gives him a house, another sponsor gives him a car, he may also get a few shares in companies that Sarries have purchased for him as a gift, but none of this is written into his contract in any way they may get away with it if they have pretty good solicitors. The RFU doesn't want to damage the club that provides the key players for the England team and I will bet it will all end up in a third of the fine which both parties will be happy with.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Fursa 05 November, 2019 16:00
A question for all you accountants out thee. Aren't benefits in kind mentioned in the previous post treated as income by the revenue for income tax purposes?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 05 November, 2019 16:07
They are but it’s the details of the findings we need to see. It appears that the payments are both outside the cap and additionally Saracens failed to disclose payments which on the latter I think they admit as an oversight

It will be interesting to see the reasoning behind the payments being determined as outside the cap

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
LI Bohemian 05 November, 2019 16:30
Don't understand what all the fuss is about, if they didn't break the rules, as Sarries have said numerous times, that they haven't, then the club can carry on, it was just an enormous coincidence that they have a third team that can beat most in the prem and a first team that can beat anyone in Europe.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SimonG19 05 November, 2019 19:04
Quote:
GHA
It also isn't the end of the world to win four or five Premierships and three Heineken Cups and then spend one season finishing 10th...

No but it would be close to it if they had all the trophies they won by cheating removed from the records so history will show them for what they are - cheats.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 05 November, 2019 22:18
You can't take away each night of celebration though, can you? The elation, emotion, all that comes with it... supporters don't care all that much from historical records they care more for what they were able to witness, live through etc

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Finno 05 November, 2019 23:14
The PRL have whacked them good and proper, so you would assume they think they are on solid ground, and I hope so!!

But Sarries will drag this out in the courts, which they can afford to. We'll end up with them getting a slap on the wrist and a paltry fine, when everyone knows they've broken the rules whether it be factually or morally, and rugby is the casualty!

A Sarries side without all the stars are just as beatable is anyone else, as we showed last weekend, that's what a level playing field looks like!!!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 05 November, 2019 23:32
[twitter.com]

This suggests it ain't your standard normal appeal...

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 06 November, 2019 06:29
What really hacks me off about the Sarries argument is that the cap they signed up to Is anti-competitive. Not that they haven’t broken the cap or that there’s been an accounting oversight - although both those are to some extent also argued but that the very cap itself should have to be adhered to

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Nick4219 06 November, 2019 06:58
Having a good read through lots of articles on this this morning. Exeter’s owner believes the punishment should be more severe and some interesting comments from John Kingston regarding how Quins had to make some decisions on letting players go after their winning season to stay under the cap. Mentions Strettle and that he was taken on by Sarries. He also likens the punishment dished out to Richmond who merely lost their financial backing as disproportionate as they were relegated 9 divisions.

My own opinion is that to have the squad of the size and quality they had and were bringing in, there was definitely something unfair about it or else every other team would flout the rules too.

There could well be other clubs to look at as the 2015 cover up clearly didn’t stop Sarries from carrying on.

Maybe time to look across the pond at the NFL who have a cap (albeit much much higher) but also how they revenue share across all teams ensuring that the lesser supported or performing teams can still be competitive.

I think they should be relegated and that in turn would see them having to give up players and therefore distribute them amongst the other Prem teams. Those who are young and in Eddie’s plans for England will stay in England.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Bigjon83 06 November, 2019 07:38
So who gets the fine money?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Shawshank 06 November, 2019 09:10
Premier Rugby presumably get the fine, and ultimately it will probably be distributed to the 13 Shareholders (less Sarries).

One idea would be to use it for making a much better offer to the Championship Clubs to accept some form of ring-fencing.

From memory PR's last offer to them was about £300K per Championship Club, which was clearly much too small.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
LI Bohemian 06 November, 2019 09:38
Former Saracens skipper Kyran Bracken called the punishments "very unfair", saying the club had "nurtured" their own players rather than "buying success".

This statement is the one that astounds, if you cheat the system then you are able to hang on to these nurtured young talents, as well as buy in the odd super star player.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SirBurger 06 November, 2019 10:21
Ashton, Barritt, Borthwick, Bosch, Brits, Brown, Hodgson, Strettle, Koch, Maitland, Lewington, Daly, Wigglesworth, Williams, Skelton...all players signed during Sarries' period of dominance. Home grown my erse...

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 06 November, 2019 10:25
As they are over the cap now why should they be allowed any points accumulated this season?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 06 November, 2019 10:34
Quote:
LI Bohemian
Former Saracens skipper Kyran Bracken called the punishments "very unfair", saying the club had "nurtured" their own players rather than "buying success".

Players nurtured rather than bought including Schalk Burger, Alex Lozowski, Sean Maitland, Vincent Koch, Liam Williams, Calum Clark, Will Skelton, Alex Lewington, David Strettle, Elliot Daly, Jack Singleton to name a few in the last four seasons

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 06 November, 2019 10:37
Beat me to it SirB

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Props are not stupid 06 November, 2019 10:37
<Copyright content deleted>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/11/2019 12:00 by Craic Admin.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
AlecW 06 November, 2019 13:44
... and Jacques Burger, Alastair Hargreaves ...

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Heaf 06 November, 2019 13:46
Quote:
HMRH
As they are over the cap now why should they be allowed any points accumulated this season?

Good point - it was bad enough we were robbed by the ref at the end but if they are still over the cap the game should be forfeit and we should get the points ...

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 06 November, 2019 13:57
They should forfeit even if we don’t get the points- they’re over the cap for gods sake

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
LI Bohemian 06 November, 2019 15:12
I think Kyran was referring to Jamie George, Mako Vinapola, Billy Vinapola, Nick Isiekwe, Maro Itoji, George Kruis, Jackson Wray, Alex Goode and Owen Farrel, we all know how hard it is to keep Nurtured Talent at this club, and if you add the players named previously, on this thread, it hits home how obvious it is really that something is rotten.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Fursa 06 November, 2019 16:12
Was not Billy Vunipola signed from Wasps?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 06 November, 2019 16:17
Yep, Billy made 41 appearances for Wasps. Mako made 40 appearances for Bristol, and Owen was signed indirectly from Wigan Rugby League?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
x_ile 06 November, 2019 16:18
I think you will find that the Vunipola brothers were, in fact, developed elsewhere and were already playing senior rugby before being hired by Saracens. Mako at Wasps and Billy at Bristol so neither can, by any stretch, be described as 'home grown'.


Sorry, got the clubs back to front.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2019 16:20 by x_ile.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Ecksile 06 November, 2019 16:45
So going forward from this weekend how should things proceed? Saracens just arrive at Gloucester and carry on as normal?

Presumably nothing has changed this season.
Surely Saracens are still reaping the advantages as indeed they have for the last 3 seasons.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
M51 06 November, 2019 17:14
I am guessing the shed will be in full voice on Saturday. Will be an interesting match!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Florida 06 November, 2019 18:21
Quote:
M51
I am guessing the shed will be in full voice on Saturday. Will be an interesting match!

The fates have aligned and it's being shown on BT Sport.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Shawshank 06 November, 2019 19:02
You would imagine that NJK is likely to be on the hit list at Sarries as being surplus to requirements assuming they need to save £5m.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
LI Bohemian 06 November, 2019 23:02
Quote:
GHA
Yep, Billy made 41 appearances for Wasps. Mako made 40 appearances for Bristol, and Owen was signed indirectly from Wigan Rugby League?

Have missed the pedantry, what's the view like?

Both Vinapola brothers joint Sarries the age of 21 owen when he was 17 I know that's not young in your book but it is in mine, and to nurture is to make and guide to get better, I think they have, but I suppose it's better to not get the gist of what I'm saying and be smug on a couple of Googled details.
I'm sorry and now know that to be young nurtured talent in the eyes on the MB you have to be born in a sarries shirt, point taken, at least on this side.

Awaiting pithy reply

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SimonG19 07 November, 2019 00:19
Quote:
GHA
You can't take away each night of celebration though, can you? The elation, emotion, all that comes with it... supporters don't care all that much from historical records they care more for what they were able to witness, live through etc

Well the Cheats took away the nights of celebration that Exeter should have had in the last two Premiership finals for a start but I know what you mean.

However I disagree with you that supporters don't care much about historical records and care more about what they witness. I've witnessed many wonderful tries and goals in recent years but my enjoyment was soon spoilt when they were ruled out by the TMO or VAR!

As a supporter in a few years time it would hurt me far more if I looked back at the record books and saw my team's title had been removed than it would if we had never won it in the first place. And that outcome would last forever far longer than a few hours celebration.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 07 November, 2019 07:23
Has Nigel Wray lost it? Investments in property are a risk so shouldn’t be seen as a guarantee like a salary?

On top of that argument seems to be that those “investments” were made at start of contract so not included in current seasons cap so they don’t have to reduce players or payments this season - the longer this goes on the worse it gets.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Nick4219 07 November, 2019 07:41
Quote:
HMRH
Has Nigel Wray lost it? Investments in property are a risk so shouldn’t be seen as a guarantee like a salary?
On top of that argument seems to be that those “investments” were made at start of contract so not included in current seasons cap so they don’t have to reduce players or payments this season - the longer this goes on the worse it gets.

This is where he is doing himself no favours. The way he speaks is to suggest that people who think it is a financial boost are stupid.

I’m pretty sure that if I applied for any kind of financial stuff and I had investments, that would make a bank more likely to give me money as they know they are going to have it secured on something.

I would also like a list of properties he has invested in that have lost him money.

Looks like the Sarries management and now some of their supporters are slipping very quickly in to delusion.

If there was nothing wrong with it then every club in the country would be doing it.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
NMB 07 November, 2019 10:59
I think Rob Baxter was very well spoken in his interview. The principles of the cap need to be taken into account here, not just the black and white if it. It is for clubs to have a level playing field, if one club can gain an advantage because they have found an avenue where they can work around it then they are going against the principles of the cap.

To Nick's point, why aren't every other club doing it? It's not exactly a ground breaking idea beyond the vision of other clubs. So you have to assume they looked at it, thought nope this is not within the cap and moved on.

Sarries must of thought this was at least walking a fine line against the rules of the cap so, if they really were as altruistic as they say, they should have just gone to prem rugby, said we are thinking of doing this what do you think, and moved forward from there. Then, because player welfare and the good of the game as a whole is at the core of what they are doing..... Said to the other clubs that they now have a model to bring the best players to the prem in a way that is within the cap and sets them up for life outside of rugby. Win win for all and a level playing field maintained.

They didn't do this because it is not within the cap in terms of money and principles and they gained an advantage over all the other clubs as a result.

Final good point from Danny Care today (well done if you made it this far on my rant) is that life after rugby often involves TV or public speaking and when a player's CV is looked at the number of winners medals is the marker of their experience and ability to speak to success etc. So it is not just impacting the sport but people's lives and life outside of rugby

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 12:55
Quote:
LI Bohemian
Have missed the pedantry, what's the view like?
Both Vinapola brothers joint Sarries the age of 21 owen when he was 17 I know that's not young in your book but it is in mine, and to nurture is to make and guide to get better, I think they have, but I suppose it's better to not get the gist of what I'm saying and be smug on a couple of Googled details.
I'm sorry and now know that to be young nurtured talent in the eyes on the MB you have to be born in a sarries shirt, point taken, at least on this side.

Awaiting pithy reply

I've missed your harassing nonsensical bullsh*t. Griff have a word please?

Agree NMB, Baxter came across well and seemed at pains to say Exeter may've lost to another team in the final so it's not simply a case of giving them the trophy instead.

Simon, disallowed tries are disallowed there and then. Lance Armstrong is a diabolical cheating scumbag and a disgrace and all sorts but he enjoyed the wins at the time and presumably celebtrated long and hard into the night, and I imagine wouldn't change those victories for anything, regardless of what the history books now say. It's the 'day out in the sun' thing, Sarries fans have had their big days out in the sun (over and over again) so to wipe the trophy from the record books is wiping it from the record books alone. Maybe agree to disagree, it's not our situation to worry about! As someone else said it seems like Saracens fans are taking the delusional way out anyway!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Griff 07 November, 2019 13:23
Tell you what, why don't both of you grow up?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 13:56
Very helpful, Griff. What did I do, exactly?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Griff 07 November, 2019 14:17
Well, for example, calling someone's interaction with you "harassing nonsensical bullsh*t". Just play nicely, if you don't like someones point-of-view and can't be bothered to argue against it (rather than simply a one-line dismissal) then please ignore it. I genuinely can't believe I have to point this out to you.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 07 November, 2019 14:26
Times also reports that investigation went beyond the issue of investments and included information about image-rights payments to offshore accounts.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 14:29
I'm not calling this one interation harassing nonsensical bullshit, I'm adding this to the pile of other messages he's directed at me. Want me to list them?

I'm the one who was playing nicely, if you went back through the thread and had a look. He obviously didn't like the point I made about Mako and Billy spending almost three seasons at other clubs before Sarries so decided to spout@#$%&at me - I genuinely can't believe you're ignoring that. Or maybe you haven't actually been keeping up with the thread - because if you have surely you would have had a word with PANS (sorry to say so PANS) about copyright and law and order and the internet police and all that other rubbish considering he's reposted an article from the paywalled Times in full. You've moaned at me and in fact warned me for simply reposting the team lineup articles from the official LI website before... And they aren't paywalled.

Play nicely indeed

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 14:30
Danny Care calling for trophies and medals to be stripped and for them to spend three seasons in the Championship. Him and Robshaw have been very vocal considering their involvement in the Bloodgate game. Probably helped by the fact Quins lost that game

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Griff 07 November, 2019 14:40
Quote:
GHA
I'm not calling this one interation harassing nonsensical bullshit, I'm adding this to the pile of other messages he's directed at me. Want me to list them?
No, I want you to grow up.

Quote:
GHA
I'm the one who was playing nicely,

I disagree.

Quote:
GHA
if you went back through the thread and had a look. He obviously didn't like the point I made about Mako and Billy spending almost three seasons at other clubs before Sarries so decided to spout@#$%&at me - I genuinely can't believe you're ignoring that. Or maybe you haven't actually been keeping up with the thread ...

I've just gone back through the thread and I still can't see why you're quite this upset. Yes, LIB suggests you're a pedant and says he's expecting a pithy response but... so what? Either counter it (with a non-pithy response), ignore or take it on the chin. If you don't want people to disagree with your opinions don't post them on a message-board.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 14:48
Haha... How very mature of you, Griff. What an example you set

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
x_ile 07 November, 2019 15:05
Can't see why anyone should be digging up Quins' misdemeanour.
A one off as far as I recall. Dealt with at the time. Irrelevant to the Saracens issue.
Saracens are, allegedly, serial offenders and are currently (again allegedly) trying to brazen it out whilst still, apparently, bending the rules. A completely different scenario to the Quins episode.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Shawshank 07 November, 2019 15:07
To be fair, Griff has always adopted on here a very successful policy of 'light touch' moderation.

It's surely not for him to get involved in private squabbles...(Sm141)

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 15:13
Light touch unless you happen to repost the text from the 'team's up' official site post!

Just saying x_ile, I agree with Care and Robshaw and they are completely different scenarios but let he who is without sin and all that!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SimonG19 07 November, 2019 17:00
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
LI Bohemian
Have missed the pedantry, what's the view like?
Both Vinapola brothers joint Sarries the age of 21 owen when he was 17 I know that's not young in your book but it is in mine, and to nurture is to make and guide to get better, I think they have, but I suppose it's better to not get the gist of what I'm saying and be smug on a couple of Googled details.
I'm sorry and now know that to be young nurtured talent in the eyes on the MB you have to be born in a sarries shirt, point taken, at least on this side.

Awaiting pithy reply

I've missed your harassing nonsensical bullsh*t. Griff have a word please?

Agree NMB, Baxter came across well and seemed at pains to say Exeter may've lost to another team in the final so it's not simply a case of giving them the trophy instead.

Simon, disallowed tries are disallowed there and then. Lance Armstrong is a diabolical cheating scumbag and a disgrace and all sorts but he enjoyed the wins at the time and presumably celebtrated long and hard into the night, and I imagine wouldn't change those victories for anything, regardless of what the history books now say. It's the 'day out in the sun' thing, Sarries fans have had their big days out in the sun (over and over again) so to wipe the trophy from the record books is wiping it from the record books alone. Maybe agree to disagree, it's not our situation to worry about! As someone else said it seems like Saracens fans are taking the delusional way out anyway!

GHA I take your point on the disallowed tries/goals (I was being a little flippant!) but if I look back on my very minor sporting achievements which still give me some pleasure this pleasure would be much reduced if I knew they had been struck from the record. Obviously the celebration on the day can't be taken away or re-awarded but I'd still like to see the records put right.

But I am certainly happy for us to disagree without falling out!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 07 November, 2019 17:20
Quins cheated and Sarries cheated (subject to appeal). One off versus sustained breaching of salary cap - hard to draw a moral line between them. I’d have thought Quins might have been a little more circumspect but Sarries are guilty of cheating over at least three years subject to appeal
Of course

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 17:24
Wasn't there a podcast a while back where Care and Monye said it was a long-planned thing, they didn't buy the blood capsules the night before the game they'd been in the medical bag for quite a while?

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, apologies

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 07 November, 2019 18:45
Possibly but a single event of cheating rather than Sarries found guilty subject to review (not an appeal) of breaking the salary cap for last 3 years

Let’s not forget they also broke the salary cap before that but for whatever reason clubs decide to keep that in house

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 18:51
Yeah, Bath have been quite quiet on the subject haven't they... I guess there's less focus on you if you under-perform!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 07 November, 2019 19:06
I read that Saracens have not formally lodged their request for a review



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2019 19:07 by HMRH.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
GHA 07 November, 2019 20:07
Nor did they send a representative for the Heineken Cup launch event today

Maybe they haven't paid their phone bill?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Siggy89 07 November, 2019 21:17
Quote:
GHA
Nor did they send a representative for the Heineken Cup launch event today
Maybe they haven't paid their phone bill?

Nigel Wray says they have paid the bill twice and so wants a refund. Well every little helps .... buy Faz a new company!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Foggy-Balla 08 November, 2019 15:35
Quote:
GHA
Wasn't there a podcast a while back where Care and Monye said it was a long-planned thing, they didn't buy the blood capsules the night before the game they'd been in the medical bag for quite a while?
Going off on a bit of a tangent here, apologies

I’m sure there were rumours about what they were up to for a season or more before the actual Bloodgate. It’s just on that occasion they were caught.

I raised it on another board when a Quin was coming over all sanctimonious & holier-than-thou about the Saracens situation.



Faugh-a-Ballagh!

"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 17 November, 2019 08:47
According to The Times Saracens are not going to request a review by tomorrow’s deadline and will therefore have the full points deduction and fine applied.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
millhillexile 17 November, 2019 09:32
Sorry to drag this on- does this mean they will have to drop players from the 1st team so that they are under the cap? Otherwise they can can continue with, ok, a large points deduction but essentially nothing changes if you get what I mean. However the impact will be felt next season if they do stay up and they will have to offload players to keep others. Either way I think Saracens have tough times ahead and will struggle to be the force they are now and have been.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 17 November, 2019 10:00
They can’t be fined for being over the cap this season until season ends I imagine - I think I read that we’re having to stagger our new arrivals to ensure we stay below cap so at some stage I imagine they’ll need to do something.

Without seeing the full report it’s impossible to know which doesn’t help anyone .

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 18 November, 2019 14:53
Amazed that the report will not be published - there are clearly more than a few doubts about whether Saracens will exceed the cap this year.

I suspect they won’t but without full transparency from PRL how will confidence in both Saracens and the process be restored?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Griff 18 November, 2019 15:17
I don't think there are any doubts. Sarries salaries clearly sit in the cap (no, me neither, but they have to be or that would've bee highlighted too).

The problem was the shared-companies that NW had set-up with certain players. They've now stopped doing those so they're under the cap.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Ecksile 18 November, 2019 16:19
Quote:
Griff
I don't think there are any doubts. Sarries salaries clearly sit in the cap (no, me neither, but they have to be or that would've bee highlighted too).
The problem was the shared-companies that NW had set-up with certain players. They've now stopped doing those so they're under the cap.

But they are still relevant. Unless NW has turned to the players concerned and said "sorry guys, we can no longer offer this investment. So with regret we will have to reduce your salary by £100k, £150k (or whatever)"

Can't see contracted players being very happy with that situation. If the investments are liquidated that must be added to the salary cap figures.

How then can everything be ok moving forward, nothing seems to have changed for this season?

ps Wonder if the rest of the squad were aware of these investments? May be some unhappy people out there?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Alphacat 18 November, 2019 16:36
Effectively it changes nothing. Saracens will suffer in Europe because they will save their England players for the prem, and they will likely get the same number of points (before discounting the 35 dropped) as previous seasons. Only punishment really is that they potentially might not make top 6 for one season...

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
x_ile 18 November, 2019 16:57
I'm still not clear how Saracens manage to have (reportedly) about one and a half squads of international players available and remain within the cap when other clubs who appear to stay within the cap barely manage to retain a half squad of internationals.

Can anyone provide an idiot level explanation for this???

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Griff 18 November, 2019 17:03
Quote:
Ecksile
But they are still relevant. Unless NW has turned to the players concerned and said "sorry guys, we can no longer offer this investment. So with regret we will have to reduce your salary by £100k, £150k (or whatever)"

Can't see contracted players being very happy with that situation. If the investments are liquidated that must be added to the salary cap figures.

How then can everything be ok moving forward, nothing seems to have changed for this season?

ps Wonder if the rest of the squad were aware of these investments? May be some unhappy people out there?

The payment to the players was the seed-capital in the setting-up of the companies. It's probably very difficult to trace the actual amounts since ownership is still shared between the player and NW (from what I gather). So long as no further capital is being invested/given then there is no foul.

The other players must have known about these companies (the company names alone are a massive giveaway) so I suspect anyone upset by them has already moved-on.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SimonG19 18 November, 2019 17:44
Quote:
Griff
I don't think there are any doubts. Sarries salaries clearly sit in the cap (no, me neither, but they have to be or that would've bee highlighted too). ...

I'm afraid that's not correct as the recent investigation didn't include this season.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Griff 19 November, 2019 09:44
Quote:
SimonG19
I'm afraid that's not correct as the recent investigation didn't include this season.

From the reports I've seen Saracens salary payments fit into the cap. If you have a source of other information I'm sure we (and PRL) would love to see it. All the reports I've read about this say that it was only the shared-companies that was an issue (and I very much agree that this was cheating and if NW thought it would be legal then he's very naive).

Unless you're saying that Sarries have taken-on a larger salary burden this season? I can't say I've paid particular attention to their retention and hiring but I can't think of that big an incomer. Daly was probably their big acquisition but they also lost a few big names. Sure, I have the same incredulity that they can retain all those names and remain under the cap but they apparently did so for all three of the years for which they were punished so it seems they do.

I can't be the only one who thinks it would be incredibly foolish of Saracens to knowingly increase their salary commitments over the cap in the year after they're handed a penalty?

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
HMRH 19 November, 2019 11:07
Con investment only an issue on the season the investment is made - Saracens have agreed To work within the cap and PRL sat they are working with Saracens to ensure clarity

Now England are worried that Sarries players will play for club over country so the only non-losers are Saracens! I’d like to be amazed that the report won’t be published but I’m not . If that group of players are under the cap for this year Surely it helps if everyone knows that is all within the cap via evidence although PRL say they are.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Florida 19 November, 2019 11:24
Quote:
HMRH
Now England are worried that Sarries players will play for club over country so the only non-losers are Saracens! I’d like to be amazed that the report won’t be published but I’m not . If that group of players are under the cap for this year Surely it helps if everyone knows that is all within the cap via evidence although PRL say they are.

If Sarries players don't play for England then they'll miss out on the credits against the salary cap they would have otherwise recieved

If Billy, Mako, Kruis, Itoje, Spencer, Daly and Faz all opt for Sarries over England during the 6Nations Sarries miss out on £175k

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
CharlieG 19 November, 2019 12:08
[quote Florida][quote HMRH]If Billy, Mako, Kruis, Itoje, Spencer, Daly and Faz all opt for Sarries over England during the 6Nations Sarries miss out on £175k[/quote]

Are they bothered about a £175k loss? - especially compared to a £5.36 million fine.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
ExiledChameleon 19 November, 2019 12:55
If you put club over country then that is up to you, but you shouldn't be able to pick and choose. If any $aracens players put club over country I hope that they never appear for England again.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Florida 19 November, 2019 13:29
[quote CharlieG][quote Florida][quote HMRH]If Billy, Mako, Kruis, Itoje, Spencer, Daly and Faz all opt for Sarries over England during the 6Nations Sarries miss out on £175k[/quote]

Are they bothered about a £175k loss? - especially compared to a £5.36 million fine.[/quote]

Bothered about a loss? N, but this isn't a loss, this would be £175k taken off their current salary budget. It's entirely conceivable that by missing out on this it would take them over the salary cap and open them up to fines and point deductions



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/11/2019 14:36 by Florida.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
bigbitty 19 November, 2019 13:35
Quote:
ExiledChameleon
If you put club over country then that is up to you, but you shouldn't be able to pick and choose. If any $aracens players put club over country I hope that they never appear for England again.

Oooh! I like the way you spell $aracens!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
SimonG19 19 November, 2019 16:52
Quote:
Griff
Quote:
SimonG19
I'm afraid that's not correct as the recent investigation didn't include this season.

From the reports I've seen Saracens salary payments fit into the cap. If you have a source of other information I'm sure we (and PRL) would love to see it. All the reports I've read about this say that it was only the shared-companies that was an issue (and I very much agree that this was cheating and if NW thought it would be legal then he's very naive).

Unless you're saying that Sarries have taken-on a larger salary burden this season? I can't say I've paid particular attention to their retention and hiring but I can't think of that big an incomer. Daly was probably their big acquisition but they also lost a few big names. Sure, I have the same incredulity that they can retain all those names and remain under the cap but they apparently did so for all three of the years for which they were punished so it seems they do.

I can't be the only one who thinks it would be incredibly foolish of Saracens to knowingly increase their salary commitments over the cap in the year after they're handed a penalty?

You said "I don't think there are any doubts. Sarries salaries clearly sit in the cap" and I remain of the opinion that this isn't true - or in other words there is doubt. If and when there is an independent investigation that says they are within the cap this season (and there hasn't been one yet as the last investigation only looked at previous years) then there will be no doubt.

As for your last sentence salaries would not need to be increased this year for them to be over the cap.

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
paddym 19 November, 2019 17:26
[www.bbc.co.uk]

All going wrong for them at the moment!

Re: Saracens fined £5.36 million & docked 35 points...!
Ecksile 19 November, 2019 19:27
Well I'm getting further confused now. In this extract it says

"the Club was found to have exceeded the ceiling for payments to senior players in each of the three seasons"

Surely that does refer to the salary cap?

But in Nigel Wray's statement here it again clearly states

Is the Club now in compliance with the salary cap? Yes. Under PRL regulations we are in compliance.

But am I missing the point here? What has changed other than Elliot Daly now joining to further boost costs?

Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net