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Salarycens
Discussion started by Exile_Dave , 16 January, 2020 20:55
Salarycens
Exile_Dave 16 January, 2020 20:55
Could be automatically relegated. Hope this is true.


[www.rugbypass.com]

Re: Salarycens
HMRH 16 January, 2020 21:16
Letís see what happens - would be huge if true. Neil Fissler
Confirmed the fact that. Players meeting called albeit without knowing or confirming why. Spices up a quiet Thursday night though!

Re: Salarycens
HMRH 16 January, 2020 21:16
Letís see what happens - would be huge if true. Neil Fissler
Confirmed the fact that. Players meeting called albeit without knowing or confirming why. Spices up a quiet Thursday night though!

Re: Salarycens
HMRH 16 January, 2020 21:51
BBC reporting the same now

Re: Salarycens
Ecksile 16 January, 2020 22:01

Re: Salarycens
Exilepaul 16 January, 2020 22:05
The Manchester City of the rugby world, and the thing that annoys me most is they go on as if it's not their fault and "we dont know the full details" etc yeah well I do lads you cheated end of. Mind the door doesn't hit use on the way down to the Championship.

Re: Salarycens
Ecksile 16 January, 2020 22:13

Re: Salarycens
Alphacat 16 January, 2020 22:36
I'm not doubting the possibility, but where in the salary regulations does it say anything about punishment of relegation? Unless it's the PRL saying "agree to be relegated this season and we won't fine you again" or something...

Re: Salarycens
ExiledChameleon 16 January, 2020 22:41
Quote:
Alphacat
I'm not doubting the possibility, but where in the salary regulations does it say anything about punishment of relegation? Unless it's the PRL saying "agree to be relegated this season and we won't fine you again" or something...

PRL could have forced them to suffer the 3 35 point punishments cumulatively, rather than concurrently (as now), which would be de facto relegation. If they're on track to go over the salary cap for this season, then additional punishments can be levied this year, which would be certain relegation.

The more I think about this the more hilarious it is, anyone up for going to Readigensians v Saracens next year? (Sm100)

Re: Salarycens
ExiledChameleon 17 January, 2020 00:37
BBC Journo: Breaking: Have received confirmation that Saracens WILL be relegated to the RFU Championship next season after they missed a deadline to prove compliance this season from Premiership Rugby. Story on @BBCSport shortly.

[twitter.com]

Cheated for 6 of the past 7 years, and driven massive wage inflation, good to see a somewhat proportionate punishment.

Re: Salarycens
Alphacat 17 January, 2020 00:52
Tweet already deleted

Re: Salarycens
ExiledChameleon 17 January, 2020 01:21
Quote:
Alphacat
Tweet already deleted

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Saracens set to be relegated from Premiership over salary cap breaches

Re: Salarycens
Shropshire Hugh 17 January, 2020 07:40
If they get rid of players under contract they have to pay severance pay. This will be more than their seasons wages and also count towards the cap. They are basically f@@@@d



Living in the Ionian Isles so just lurking when wifi allows!

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 08:10
This is@#$%&news really...

Saracens players are 0% responsible for this happening, they HAVE to get the biggest Salary possible in such a short career. maybe they could have worked out that there was some "work arounds" the salary cap going on but ultimately (as I do) you trust your employer to be paying you correctly.

now they lose their Job stability, potentially a portion of their Salary.

secondly, if key players decide to stay and go down to the prem... god help the struggling Yorkshire Carnegies of the league...

or in fact even worse, god help the Ealings and Cornish Pirates of the league who have put a stupid amount of money into getting "prem ready"... they will have very little chance of a push for the premiership next season.

Finally, (and i admit this is a little bit OTT Negative) - If we survive ONLY because Saracens are relegated. that is going to make it tough to sign bigger better players... we won't have the Bristol or Exeter air about us of "they scrapped their way to stay up, they are fighters and are going places" - we'll be the lucky underdogs, un proven to stay in the Prem and likely to drop second season in... (having said that, if I had the choice... i'd definitively stay up regardless of the reason for it)

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 08:31
Interesting take, tatthecraic2

Come play for us, we'll pay you loads but you have to take half of it as dividends from a company we'll set up in your name, is that OK?

I can't believe that the players didn't have an inkling that there was something funny about the way they were being paid. In the same way everyone who watches the Premiership thought there was something funny about the way their squad was apparently within the cap but at the same time full of current internationals and Lions, sometimes two or three in each position. The players aren't responsible but they must've known.

They also have the skills, talent, resume etc to get new jobs. Job stability will be fine once they presumably move, salary will be fine unless they all take pay cuts because their employer broke the Premiership law. Don't worry about them.

Quote:
If we survive ONLY because Saracens are relegated. that is going to make it tough to sign bigger better players...

No one will look at how we stayed up, they will look at what league we will be playing in. We managed to sign Jackson, Naholo, O'Brien et al despite being in the Championship, didn't we?

Re: Salarycens
PV 17 January, 2020 08:39
Tbh I have zero sympathy, the establishment knew they were cheating and Iím sure the players did unless they were hopelessly thick e.g. Alex Goode, Liam Williams and Elliot Daly at 15. Three top class in virtually each position, no other club in England anywhere near that depth.

Wray resigned because he knows the report will come out and show how it was blatant abuse.

As for those losing their jobs, look at us and other sides who have gone down, what do they think has happened to us? They partly drove this through wage inflation and cheating.

Shouldíve be automatically sent down as it wasnít contractually and therefore mathematically possible to get under the cap.

The complete lack of remorse really riles as well, complete lack of humility and now in a wholly undignified position. Quite pathetic really.

Re: Salarycens
ExiledChameleon 17 January, 2020 08:46
Next year should be a significantly easier survival job, Kepu, Coleman, Botha, SO'B, Phipps, Naholo etc will be available for the entire season, and Newcastle look to be a bit weaker than any of the current side. As for this year, we're 9 points behind 4th, and a mere 4 points from 6th, we're still very much in the Champions Cup spots fight.

Re: Salarycens
PV 17 January, 2020 08:51
Exactly, 6N prem games will shape it. Plus should get 4/5 pts back from Sarries

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 09:02
Quote:
GHA
Interesting take, tatthecraic2
Come play for us, we'll pay you loads but you have to take half of it as dividends from a company we'll set up in your name, is that OK?

I can't believe that the players didn't have an inkling that there was something funny about the way they were being paid. In the same way everyone who watches the Premiership thought there was something funny about the way their squad was apparently within the cap but at the same time full of current internationals and Lions, sometimes two or three in each position. The players aren't responsible but they must've known.

They also have the skills, talent, resume etc to get new jobs. Job stability will be fine once they presumably move, salary will be fine unless they all take pay cuts because their employer broke the Premiership law. Don't worry about them.

Quote:
If we survive ONLY because Saracens are relegated. that is going to make it tough to sign bigger better players...

No one will look at how we stayed up, they will look at what league we will be playing in. We managed to sign Jackson, Naholo, O'Brien et al despite being in the Championship, didn't we?

yea, but considering the salary cap - will we be able to sign at a price point we can afford...

i.e. as consistent relegation candidates, we have to pay something like a 40% inflation for bigger names due to the risk.

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 09:03
Their Premiership titles and Heineken Cups should be stripped too - have the record books show the runners up only

Re: Salarycens
HMRH 17 January, 2020 09:09
Wray screwed Saracens and our club in the league and potentially England in the 6N. A lot to answer for and Sarries trying to find new investors. He shouldnít be allowed anywhere near rugby but as he keeps funding Sarries hard to see how that changes regardless of which league theyíre in.

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 09:33
Quote:
tatthecraic2
as consistent relegation candidates, we have to pay something like a 40% inflation for bigger names due to the risk.

Not this season, hopefully. Last season we signed players with a view to playing in the Premiership the following season despite being in the Championship. If this is confirmed, we can sign players with a view to playing in the Premiership whilst being in the Premiership... (Sm100)

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 10:33
we always hope.

but feel its more about perception of incoming players. if they don't feel we're stable. I.e. we finish 11th due to Sarries being 12th. then they won't sign unless the pot is sweet enough.

or I personally wouldn't from an objective view point.

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 10:33
we always hope.

but feel its more about perception of incoming players. if they don't feel we're stable. I.e. we finish 11th due to Sarries being 12th. then they won't sign unless the pot is sweet enough.

or I personally wouldn't from an objective view point.

Re: Salarycens
PV 17 January, 2020 10:47
We have a good enough squad to survive and thrive, itíll take a bit of time thatís all and perfectly normal. Have faith!

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 10:50
Quote:
tatthecraic2
we always hope.
but feel its more about perception of incoming players. if they don't feel we're stable. I.e. we finish 11th due to Sarries being 12th. then they won't sign unless the pot is sweet enough.

or I personally wouldn't from an objective view point.

Do you think Naholo, Jackson, O'Brien, Coleman etc thought we were stable?

Players don't sign due to perceptions and stability, players sign for money and world class training facilities. No agent is going to say 'hang on a second, yeah they are in the Premiership next season but only because Saracens were relegated instead...' If anything that's more of an incentive, more of a challenge, they're up and they can build.

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 11:25
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
tatthecraic2
we always hope.
but feel its more about perception of incoming players. if they don't feel we're stable. I.e. we finish 11th due to Sarries being 12th. then they won't sign unless the pot is sweet enough.

or I personally wouldn't from an objective view point.

Do you think Naholo, Jackson, O'Brien, Coleman etc thought we were stable?

Players don't sign due to perceptions and stability, players sign for money and world class training facilities. No agent is going to say 'hang on a second, yeah they are in the Premiership next season but only because Saracens were relegated instead...' If anything that's more of an incentive, more of a challenge, they're up and they can build.

Likely to attract Internationals at end of career, or Journeyman internationals. (al la SOB, Phipps, Kepu.

Granted Adam Coleman and Naholo are very much in their prime!

it won't keep Loader, OHC for long, just as it didn't keep Yarde or Watson or JJ or Flutey or Garvey...

all im saying is the best players are not attracted to just money (its a huge factor) but successful clubs with ability to play in a winning team to gain / increase their international experience.

P.S if Saracens need rid of a few players when relegated.

God damn I would love Nick Tompkins and Lewi back... would fill much needed positions brilliantly.

Re: Salarycens
Ajax Treesdown 17 January, 2020 11:33
Lewington? When everyone is fully fit he would not start.

Can we also have Delon and Steffon Armitage back

Re: Salarycens
LI Bohemian 17 January, 2020 12:36
When is it, do tell, in any part of the season that everyone is fit then? This is the main reason why Saracens have flourished, they have, through illegal means, increased their quality and quality of depth, it would not be a bad reason to have Lewi back,.

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 13:28
Quote:
Ajax Treesdown
Lewington? When everyone is fully fit he would not start.
Can we also have Delon and Steffon Armitage back

depth in a squad is important, I fear that is just a left over bitterness from him leaving in the first place.

he was a cracker, and probably would start in front of OHC (until he's more experienced) and Mr Worldwide

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 13:33
But not Loader and Naholo

Re: Salarycens
SimonG19 17 January, 2020 14:27
Quote:
GHA
Their Premiership titles and Heineken Cups should be stripped too - have the record books show the runners up only

Agreed although I would have the books show title/cup removed due to cheating.

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 14:30
Quote:
GHA
But not Loader and Naholo

true, but how many of the last 10 games have either of them played... and how many has Lewington played considering the wings that Saracens have...

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 14:44
So OHC can get experience when Loader and Naholo are out injured?

If I could, of all the players at Saracens I'd like to pick through, there's probably over 15 before I get to Lewington

Re: Salarycens
bigbitty 17 January, 2020 16:14
The Telegraph is reporting that, at their meeting, Saracens have accepted another 35 point deduction, and this does mean relegation.

I wonder what would happen if ringfencing happened this season. Would they still have to go down?

Re: Salarycens
Exile_Dave 17 January, 2020 16:16
New updates on Saracens from the rugby paper:

- Club has to cut its wage bill by £2m by the end of January to comply with salary cap deadline.
- Daily Mail is reporting Saracens told players this morning they WILL be automatically relegated at the end of the season and will be docked 35 points AGAIN, which would take their current points tally in the Premiership to -42.
- Fellow Premiership clubs aren't interested in buying out Saracens players' contracts to sign them.
- Should England internationals players move overseas to Top 14, Japan's Top League or Super Rugby, they would be unavailable selection.
- Should Saracens win the Champions Cup they would not be able to defend their title next season IF they were relegated to the Championship

Re: Salarycens
Alphacat 17 January, 2020 16:31
Quote:
bigbitty
The Telegraph is reporting that, at their meeting, Saracens have accepted another 35 point deduction, and this does mean relegation.

Alright so we still need 28 points at this stage (assuming Saracens win every game with 5 points lol) to guarantee safety.

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 17:13
Quote:
Alphacat
Quote:
bigbitty
The Telegraph is reporting that, at their meeting, Saracens have accepted another 35 point deduction, and this does mean relegation.

Alright so we still need 28 points at this stage (assuming Saracens win every game with 5 points lol) to guarantee safety.

Lol.

I think the Relegation is guaranteed and the additional 35 points is added to the guaranteed relegation... may be wrong

Re: Salarycens
Ecksile 17 January, 2020 18:26
I wonder how Allianz are feeling about all this?

Re: Salarycens
SixNineOne 17 January, 2020 18:46
Quote:
Ecksile
I wonder how Allianz are feeling about all this?
Perhaps Volkswagen should take over as their main sponsor...

Re: Salarycens
tatthecraic2 17 January, 2020 18:53
Quote:
SixNineOne
Quote:
Ecksile
I wonder how Allianz are feeling about all this?
Perhaps Volkswagen should take over as their main sponsor...

Now that was funny😄

Re: Salarycens
shimmieandshake 17 January, 2020 19:54
Lozowski and Malins would be my pick of them.

We won't get them, obviously, but I reckon the established England guns have lots of incentive to stay (same wage, less games, focus on internationals, pretty much guaranteed bounceback) whereas those on the fringes of England side need to move to avoid losing a year of their prime.

So the likes of Singleton and Earl. Maybe Isiekwe, as well as the two above.

Hypothetical backline of - Phipps, Jackson, Loader, Lozowski, Rona, Naholo, Malins - would go pretty well.

Interesting note about none of the other sides buying out contracts to ensure the ship sinks.

Re: Salarycens
PV 17 January, 2020 19:57
No club in the prem wants them. Quite right.

Re: Salarycens
GHA 17 January, 2020 21:28
Quote:
PV
No club in the prem wants them. Quite right.

Not until relegation is confirmed. No club in the prem wants to help Sarries get the wage bill down and therefore avoid punishment, that's all

Re: Salarycens
Exile_Dave 17 January, 2020 21:53
Quote:
PV
No club in the prem wants them. Quite right.

Itís also because if other teams buy-out players they themselves will go over their salary cap and be in the same position as salarycens. Best team stay away and make sure the nail is in the coffin.

Re: Salarycens
PV 18 January, 2020 08:45
Quote:
Exile_Dave
Quote:
PV
No club in the prem wants them. Quite right.

Itís also because if other teams buy-out players they themselves will go over their salary cap and be in the same position as salarycens. Best team stay away and make sure the nail is in the coffin.

Assuming everyone is up to the cap .

Also, what about policy around injury jokers and marquees.

On a separate note, the prem clubs were suggesting not Ďhonouringí fixtures against Saracens, shouldíve stuck to their guns on that. Wouldíve expedited the outcome.

Re: Salarycens
HMRH 18 January, 2020 09:03
Letís get the points we need to be sure. Saved by their relegation is all Well and good but we still have to find a way to stay up season after season.

Itís a disaster for English rugby all from Wrayís vanity

Re: Salarycens
x_ile 18 January, 2020 10:20
To go all conspiracy theorist .....

Should one be looking sideways at any club releasing top players at this stage of the season?? (Sm100)

Re: Salarycens
Saintalex 18 January, 2020 17:40
Hi guys. Been told that Saracens have until Monday to prove they are under the cap, with only Liam Williams moving on and a reported 2m over the cap, they are no where near it. Kick them out of all leagues i say. Make them start from the bottom. Looking forward to seeing you all on Friday night under the lights at gardens.
How is Smylee doing? Breaks my heart watching him play for you and how about Stephenson? Has he recovered from his injury?
See you next week and good luck against the Scarlets tonight

Re: Salarycens
Exile_Dave 18 January, 2020 18:22
Q&A to answer some questions

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