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How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Discussion started by Nick4219 , 21 January, 2020 08:10
How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 21 January, 2020 08:10
Just thinking that the continued cover up of the Dyson report leaves the question as to why arenít PRL releasing it to the public to allow fans to see what really has been going on with the salary cap investigation.

Surely releasing the report will show just how far the salary cap breaches went and may shine a light on those who were complicit and have tarnished the reputation and the spirit of the game of rugby.

PRL effectively covered up the last Salary cap investigation in 2015 where money was used in order to suppress the truth over breaches back then.

Who is to say that there arenít still breaches taking place and how can PRL show that each club is playing and operating within the league rules?

I have written to my MP to ask if the Minister for Sport can make any head way in to getting PRL to release the Dyson report, maybe if others feel the same as me they can also write a quick few lines to show out general discontent?

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Florida 21 January, 2020 08:36
Personally I don't care about the report, it makes no difference to me how far they were over or who was at the core of it. They cheated, they got a punished for it, they continued to cheat, they recieved a hefty (yet fitting) punishment.

What I'm more interested in is the Salary Cap Managers process and why it failed for 4 years. What changes they're planning on making to it to stop these things happening in future.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
AlecW 21 January, 2020 09:00
I am sure HMRC will have @#$%& up its ears too... I wonder why Saracens were so keen not to have to open up their books?

Edit - the censorship algorithm thinks that p-r-i-c-k-e-d refers to male genitalia and so has edited it, whereas clearly it can also mean 1) make a small hole in (something) with a sharp point; pierce slightly or 2) (especially of a horse or dog) make (the ears) stand erect when on the alert.

I meant the latter.

<sigh!>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/01/2020 12:49 by AlecW.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 21 January, 2020 09:30
Quote:
Florida
Personally I don't care about the report, it makes no difference to me how far they were over or who was at the core of it. They cheated, they got a punished for it, they continued to cheat, they recieved a hefty (yet fitting) punishment.
What I'm more interested in is the Salary Cap Managers process and why it failed for 4 years. What changes they're planning on making to it to stop these things happening in future.

Then surely by releasing the report, it would shed some light and possibly answer the questions you have? PRL have asked for another report to be compiled now by Lord Myners, but, who is to say if they donít like the findings again then it will all stay secret. All these reports are worthless if not made public and why should we trust them if they canít be opened up to public scrutiny?

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Florida 21 January, 2020 09:39
Quote:
Nick4219
Quote:
Florida
Personally I don't care about the report, it makes no difference to me how far they were over or who was at the core of it. They cheated, they got a punished for it, they continued to cheat, they recieved a hefty (yet fitting) punishment.
What I'm more interested in is the Salary Cap Managers process and why it failed for 4 years. What changes they're planning on making to it to stop these things happening in future.

Then surely by releasing the report, it would shed some light and possibly answer the questions you have? PRL have asked for another report to be compiled now by Lord Myners, but, who is to say if they donít like the findings again then it will all stay secret. All these reports are worthless if not made public and why should we trust them if they canít be opened up to public scrutiny?

I don't think it will answer my questions, sure it'll tell me how large a breach there was, why they were deemed to be in breach, but I don't think there's going to be much reflection on why the SCM failed for 4 years. That's why it's the second report that I care about. You could be right that the second one could be kept a secret, but I don't get the impression that it will be.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why people want to see the report, but for me it just doesn't matter and I'm grateful for that as I have zero faith it'll see the light of day

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 21 January, 2020 09:42
Yeah, can't help feeling that this clamour for the report to be made public is in most cases a way to distract from the actual issue at hand i.e. Saracens and their financial doping for the last however many years. They are being punished (although still haven't had their titles and European Cups stripped for some reason), other clubs have now seen what could happen if they are found to have cheated, so let's move on.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 21 January, 2020 10:08
Quote:
GHA
Yeah, can't help feeling that this clamour for the report to be made public is in most cases a way to distract from the actual issue at hand i.e. Saracens and their financial doping for the last however many years. They are being punished (although still haven't had their titles and European Cups stripped for some reason), other clubs have now seen what could happen if they are found to have cheated, so let's move on.

The Dyson report will shine the light on Saracens for all to see, asking for its release is not burying it, I want to see the scale of it and letís face it, itís not the last 3 years is it? The 2015 settlement (that wasnít a settlement because PRL and the clubs involved said it wasnít) obviously highlighted shenanigans then and didnít stop Saracens from carrying on.

I think there may be something in that other clubs do have stuff to hide and you canít rightly move on until the full truth comes out. Only then can people come to terms with it, possibly try and understand it and then work out a way to move on from it.

Iím sure a release of the full report will even allow the most one eyed of Saracens supporters to come to terms with their punishment and debunk some of the conspiracy theories they have that the rest of the league is out to get them.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 21 January, 2020 10:18
Quote:
Only then can people come to terms with it

I've found it quite easy to come to terms with. Other clubs might have stuff to hide but they have now seen the potential punishment they may face i.e. big fines, points deductions, relegation. They know the infamous Salary Cap Manager guy / girl now needs to up his game and be seen to be on the ball so it's almost as though a line has been drawn in the sand and we move on from here. Does it matter if, for example, Quins were £30,000 over last season? Or Bath were £80,000 over for the past two seasons? Not really, IMO.

Judging by some comments this season, the most one eyed Saracens supporters will still find something to argue over even if the report is published, so that shouldn't be a reason for releasing it.

But maybe that's just me...

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Foggy-Balla 21 January, 2020 10:21
Quote:
Nick4219
Iím sure a release of the full report will even allow the most one eyed of Saracens supporters to come to terms with their punishment and debunk some of the conspiracy theories they have that the rest of the league is out to get them.

As a Saracens-supporting friend-of-friend said d on FB, ďwell you couldnít beat us on the field so you had to do so in the committee rooms.Ē

Well duh!



Faugh-a-Ballagh!

"Our prayer is 'God save Ireland' and pour blessings on her name!"

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 21 January, 2020 10:32
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
Only then can people come to terms with it

I've found it quite easy to come to terms with. Other clubs might have stuff to hide but they have now seen the potential punishment they may face i.e. big fines, points deductions, relegation. They know the infamous Salary Cap Manager guy / girl now needs to up his game and be seen to be on the ball so it's almost as though a line has been drawn in the sand and we move on from here. Does it matter if, for example, Quins were £30,000 over last season? Or Bath were £80,000 over for the past two seasons? Not really, IMO.

Judging by some comments this season, the most one eyed Saracens supporters will still find something to argue over even if the report is published, so that shouldn't be a reason for releasing it.

But maybe that's just me...

Interesting point re Bath. Did them signing a large number of our players take them over or around the cap and has that led to our recent run of double relegations?

How many people at the club lost their jobs when we had to downsize for Championship Rugby? I think I remember rumours on this board and others at the time of allegations of players families being ďemployedĒ by James Dyson in order to get round the cap*

*this is all rumour and no evidence to suggest it happened even though in 2015 Bath were rumoured to be one of the four clubs that paid a figure to PRL over Salary cap related issues.

Okay Iíve gone slightly off topic but it still smarts and thatís years after it happened!

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 21 January, 2020 10:34
Time to move on, draw the line, don't let it happen again rather than open up more what-ifs, in my opinion

Quote:
Foggy-Balla
As a Saracens-supporting friend-of-friend said d on FB, ďwell you couldnít beat us on the field so you had to do so in the committee rooms.Ē

No-one could spend as much as them either

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 21 January, 2020 10:35
Just to add, again in my opinion publishing the report and finding out this team did this and that team did that won't help rugby win its integrity back - moving on will

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
orsoncart 21 January, 2020 11:20
Quite tricky to move on with Saracens opting for relegation rather than audit. That just shouts out that something seriously dodgy was likely to be going on, and that it can be kept confidential

To me, the Saracens punishment fits the bill, even though Iíd personally like them to hand back their trophies. But the wider point is well made, how does rugby show that it has its house in order. By policing this ongoing issue, effectively, across all clubs, and taking public and rapid action with any transgressors.

I think that speculation, gossip and rumour will continue to drive communication about rugby unless this report is made public, the process is shown to be transparent and fair, as is the punishment. Obviously Individual player confidentiality should remain.

I just cant see any way around it - apart from the misguided Stephen Jones, does anyone think that journalists are going to back off this? Itís one of the worst stories to be associated with the game

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 21 January, 2020 11:29
Rugby's house will be in order from here on because clubs have seen the punishment dished out to Saracens. The salary cap will (from here on) be more rigorously checked, the salary cap manager will theoretically be on the ball with all clubs and they will know to be whiter than white.

Dishing out a relegation to one club, a 10 point deduction to another, an 8 point deduction to a third, and a fine to a fourth will I believe just make things worse. The worst offender has been punished, and now we move on. And yes, it's one of the worst stories to be associated with the game but yes, journalists will back off it once the league gets back under one and the season starts to take proper shape, when Saracens start cutting their players, oh and hopefully when Leinster knock them out of Europe

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
SimonG19 21 January, 2020 11:31
In answer to the initial question.

1) Relegate Saracens to the depths of the lower leagues as happened to London Scottish, Richmond and London Welsh.

2) Give a lifetime ban from rugby to Nigel Wray.

3) Replace the board of PRL with competent people.


That would be a good start.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
SixNineOne 21 January, 2020 17:47
Does the Dyson report look solely at Saracens in relation to the salary cap or is it possible/likely that it will have looked at other clubs too? If thatís the case, Iím not surprised by PRLís reluctance to release it and the rumours that Saracens are lawyering up in a bid to expose other cheats.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 21 January, 2020 19:55
Quote:
SixNineOne
Does the Dyson report look solely at Saracens in relation to the salary cap or is it possible/likely that it will have looked at other clubs too? If thatís the case, Iím not surprised by PRLís reluctance to release it and the rumours that Saracens are lawyering up in a bid to expose other cheats.

Only PRL, Lord Dyson and Saracens seem to know. Let us all see it and then it would end the speculation. If there is more to come out then so be it.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
SimonG19 21 January, 2020 21:47
Quote:
SixNineOne
Does the Dyson report look solely at Saracens in relation to the salary cap or is it possible/likely that it will have looked at other clubs too? If thatís the case, Iím not surprised by PRLís reluctance to release it and the rumours that Saracens are lawyering up in a bid to expose other cheats.

If other cheats are going to be exposed then Messrs McCall, Sanderson, Farell and a couple of Vunipolas must be worried for a start.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
shimmieandshake 22 January, 2020 10:19
Auditing everyone, not just Saracens. It's a farce that they've been allowed to keep their books closed, it just screams, "we're more guilty than you currently think."

Until we've seen their books, there will always be asterisks and question marks. In order to truly turn over a new leaf, it needs to be done at every club to ensure compliance across the board.

Also need to consider ethics of it. For instance, I've heard from several places that Sale bought Chris Ashton a million pound gaff in Hertfordshire (somehow outside the cap?) and that one Du Preez brother gets paid £800,000 (as a marquee player), the other two get paid something like £50,000/£100,000 each and they divide equal shares out amongst themselves later. Those sort of loopholes need to be closed.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 22 January, 2020 11:05
Quote:
shimmieandshake
Auditing everyone, not just Saracens. It's a farce that they've been allowed to keep their books closed, it just screams, "we're more guilty than you currently think."
Until we've seen their books, there will always be asterisks and question marks. In order to truly turn over a new leaf, it needs to be done at every club to ensure compliance across the board.

Also need to consider ethics of it. For instance, I've heard from several places that Sale bought Chris Ashton a million pound gaff in Hertfordshire (somehow outside the cap?) and that one Du Preez brother gets paid £800,000 (as a marquee player), the other two get paid something like £50,000/£100,000 each and they divide equal shares out amongst themselves later. Those sort of loopholes need to be closed.

And you also heard 10 clubs were over the cap, didn't you?

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 22 January, 2020 11:12
The boss of PRL has suggested that itís Saracens that have asked for the Dyson report not to be published.

So, they didnít agree to the mid season audit and took relegation and now it appears they also donít want the Dyson report getting out.

There must be some pretty shocking revelations in that report which could probably condemn them even more than a simple one division relegation. Iím willing to be proved wrong though if they release the report and allow us all to make our own judgments.

A little bit of me thinks that full disclosure may possibly be very bad for a number of players and may lead to more pressure coming on PRL to strip titles and EPCR may have to take action too.

Release the report and end all of the speculation. Clean the game up now and protect it for the future.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Edited to include link to what Iím on about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/01/2020 11:14 by Nick4219.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Shawshank 22 January, 2020 11:20
Quote:
AlecW
I am sure HMRC will have @#$%& up its ears too... I wonder why Saracens were so keen not to have to open up their books?
<sigh!>

I think Alec has it spot on with HMRC issues.

Wonder who Sarries Auditors were..? I expect that they may also be feeling a bit worried.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
AlecW 22 January, 2020 11:29
Shawshank - per Companies House, Saracens Limited and Saracens Copthall LLP are audited by Kingston Smith.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
bigbitty 22 January, 2020 15:15
Surely the auditors would have no interest in whether Saracens were keeping to the salary cap, only that whatever they spent the money on was acceptable to HMRC?

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
shimmieandshake 22 January, 2020 15:54
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
shimmieandshake
Auditing everyone, not just Saracens. It's a farce that they've been allowed to keep their books closed, it just screams, "we're more guilty than you currently think."
Until we've seen their books, there will always be asterisks and question marks. In order to truly turn over a new leaf, it needs to be done at every club to ensure compliance across the board.

Also need to consider ethics of it. For instance, I've heard from several places that Sale bought Chris Ashton a million pound gaff in Hertfordshire (somehow outside the cap?) and that one Du Preez brother gets paid £800,000 (as a marquee player), the other two get paid something like £50,000/£100,000 each and they divide equal shares out amongst themselves later. Those sort of loopholes need to be closed.

And you also heard 10 clubs were over the cap, didn't you?

Yes.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
GHA 22 January, 2020 16:11
Quote:
shimmieandshake
Quote:
GHA
Quote:
shimmieandshake
Auditing everyone, not just Saracens. It's a farce that they've been allowed to keep their books closed, it just screams, "we're more guilty than you currently think."
Until we've seen their books, there will always be asterisks and question marks. In order to truly turn over a new leaf, it needs to be done at every club to ensure compliance across the board.

Also need to consider ethics of it. For instance, I've heard from several places that Sale bought Chris Ashton a million pound gaff in Hertfordshire (somehow outside the cap?) and that one Du Preez brother gets paid £800,000 (as a marquee player), the other two get paid something like £50,000/£100,000 each and they divide equal shares out amongst themselves later. Those sort of loopholes need to be closed.

And you also heard 10 clubs were over the cap, didn't you?

Yes.

But you don't fancy expanding on that any further?

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Florida 22 January, 2020 16:22
Quote:
shimmieandshake
Auditing everyone, not just Saracens. It's a farce that they've been allowed to keep their books closed, it just screams, "we're more guilty than you currently think."
Until we've seen their books, there will always be asterisks and question marks. In order to truly turn over a new leaf, it needs to be done at every club to ensure compliance across the board.

Also need to consider ethics of it. For instance, I've heard from several places that Sale bought Chris Ashton a million pound gaff in Hertfordshire (somehow outside the cap?) and that one Du Preez brother gets paid £800,000 (as a marquee player), the other two get paid something like £50,000/£100,000 each and they divide equal shares out amongst themselves later. Those sort of loopholes need to be closed.

This screams nonsense to me. I know the salary cap manager has been pretty woeful so far, but i really can't see them waving through two senior players on such a low fee. If they do then they really are incompetent.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
shimmieandshake 22 January, 2020 17:55
I hope you're right, Florida. In the same way I hope the rumour I referred to is wrong, GHA.

I still think now is an excellent time to audit every club. That way, if other clubs are also infringing, they can say they were forced to in order to compete with Saracens, can get take any minor penalties and get back below the cap.

Imagine the farce if another club got pinged for going over in a year or two and it transpired they also had been now.

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 22 January, 2020 19:15
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Well, well, well!

Letís see what this reveals

Re: How can PRL and Rugby win itís integrity back?
Nick4219 23 January, 2020 19:19
Having had a read through of the full report, I think that actually PRL have come out of this pretty good.

Saracens in my opinion even after receiving a yellow card and paying the 2015 settlement (referred to in the report so not a badly kept secret anymore) carried on the subterfuge and must have known they were doing wrong. The panel state they were not set up to decide if the actions of Saracens were deliberately designed to mislead, only to judge on if the charges laid before them amounted to a breach of the Salary cap regulation and the panel found they did.

Looks like Saracens tried every trick in the book from quoting competition laws, dodgy expert witnesses and simply not producing documentation to support or disprove their defence.

PRL went with the recommended fine and points deduction but wanted more.

On looking at the cap this year, Saracens clearly were not going to under it so PRL made the unilateral decision to relegate them which Saracens have agreed to so all the bleeding hearts over in Barnet can stop trying to gild the lilly with the black and red tinted specs some seem to be wearing.

PRL clearly have said cap breaches are no longer acceptable and this should force all clubs to do their own forensic examination and work with the SCM to ensure they are all within the cap as I think that everyone may weíll end up facing an audit anyway.

I think Nigel Wray for all the good he has done should now be banned from rugby in light of the full disclosure but not sure if there is even a power for that to happen.


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