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Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Discussion started by Exilepaul , 01 February, 2020 23:55
Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Exilepaul 01 February, 2020 23:55
Italy were frankly a shambles today but have no desire to improve as there place in the 6 nations is not under threat at all and their games are non spectacles, Saracens are going to now rest all their stars and will have no appetite to play well in the premiership and were awful at quins last weekend and I was talking to Worcester fans who weren't even bothered by their result against wasps, as someone who goes to and watches alot of rugby on tv what's the point in tuning in if there isnt something on these games? Surely there has to be punishment for not performing?

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 07:46
Saints v LI seemed pretty good evidence against your theory.

The game seemed to matter a great deal to all players and the Gardens faithful.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
SixNineOne 02 February, 2020 09:01
When DoRs and coaches trot out the old chestnut ďweíre only focused on the next gameĒ I take it with a pinch of salt. Any half decent DoR will be focusing on building his squad, developing his existing cadre of players and attracting good new ones. This is driven not just by his own, and the squadís, natural ambition to win but also by the commercial imperative. He will have the owner and commercial director in his ear pushing for success on the field since that it the only reliable route to a successful future for the business As a whole. The threat of the relegation cliff edge puts this imperative into sharper focus, but I think it would be a mistake to imagine that the pressure to win evaporates without it. As fans, we are just as keen to see our team win whether or not thereís relegation and itís our money that is a key source of income for the club. For me the main difference is that the (temporary) removal of the threat of relegation allows the DoR to take a slightly longer term approach to developing his whole squad. Iím pretty confident that weíll see a few more cracking games like the one at Franklinís Gardens before this (dead?) season is finished.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
CharlieG 02 February, 2020 11:25
Quote:
Exilepaul
Italy were frankly a shambles today but have no desire to improve as there place in the 6 nations is not under threat at all and their games are non spectacles

How do you know that Italy "have no desire to improve"?

My feeling is that they are suffering from "Post RWC-itis". They have a new coaching team looking to build towards a future without their captain and star player. It's bound to be a bit rocky.

Whilst I do agree that the 6 Nations needs to think very hard about Italy, I don't think that their secure position in the 6 Nations is the cause of the problem.

Professional rugby is both a business and a sport, and rugby needs to be successful at both to prosper.

My view is that removing relegation would help stability for the business, but keeping relegation enhances the sport. However, the situation that we have had for most of the last few years, where the promoted team tends to go straight back down again and the relegated team tends to come straight back up is no good for either the sport or the business. On the other hand teams such as Exeter and London Welsh show that teams need to be allowed the opportunity to either succeed or to fail.

My view is that we need a play-off between the bottom Premiership team and the top Championship team. This will make promotion and relegation quite hard, but gives the stability that the business needs to invest and build, while ensuring that a good team can always make it, and a failing team can fail.

I do believe that on many occasions, the team being relegated is actually better than the team being promoted, which is why we get this continual ping-pong between the two leagues, and a play-off will help to resolve this, and also help to ensure that the best teams are always in the Premiership.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Alphacat 02 February, 2020 13:34
I don't think the ringfencing argument can be applied to the six nations in the same way that it can be applied to a general sports league. Six Nations is just a series of international matches that can be enjoyed alone - a win matters in the same way that winning any international does. Six Nations just creates more competition at the top between teams.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Heaf 02 February, 2020 14:44
It's not like there are no leagues without relegation - they seem to manage OK ...

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 14:55
If there was ring-fencing then Premiership should introduce the Extra play-off round as in the Top 14, so that 3rd plays 6th and 4th plays 5th to see who then gets to play away in the semifinals.

This should keep most games really competitive until at least the last couple of weeks.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
echidna 02 February, 2020 17:44
Yeah, lack of relegation is really holding back Super Rugby, Pro 14, all the major American sports, etc.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Bazzo 02 February, 2020 21:04
Italy U20ís might argue that they have no future?

What are we playing for now.....we wonít get relegated? The Saints game was just a testimonial game, nothing at stake for us. I think that it will be interesting now who will finish 11th? The team that would have gone down if Sarries were not punished.

The main argument that i see in favour of ringfencing is the option to play younger kids in preference to expensive imports. To control wages and no need for anyone to seek salary cap excesses. Way too many clubs losing too much money, unsustainable.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Alphacat 02 February, 2020 22:49
What are we playing for? We've only played 9 rounds - we are still playing for top 6!

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Shawshank 03 February, 2020 13:29
Top 4!

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Florida 03 February, 2020 14:14
Quote:
Shawshank
Top 4!

Top 4? Pfft, 1st place post the play offs!!!

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
bigbitty 03 February, 2020 16:39
First place? Pfft! We will get automatic promotion to God status.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Clontarf 03 February, 2020 17:04
The old 5 Nations was ring fenced. Nobody suggested the competitive edge was missing.

There were swings and roundabouts in competitiveness. In the late 1990s there was a "serious" proposal (in some newspapers anyways) that the final game should be between France and England because that would always be the decider.

In truth Ireland were abysmal in the 1990s, some games at Twickenham were over after twenty minutes.

But Wales have won a bundle of Grand Slams since 2000, Ireland have won two, I know England have won some - too lazy to check - and I don't think France have won any.

I don't think ring fencing is the problem with Italy's success rate.

Whether they have the playing numbers to compete is another matter.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
HMRH 03 February, 2020 20:45
The problem with both leagues is there just arenít teams outside that at good enough to make an impression. Falcons will win the league and so will Saracens and the Prem team relegated after that and so on

Italy are still better than Georgia and would win 9/10 games so why go through the charade?

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Alphacat 03 February, 2020 21:08
I think South Africa would be a good addition to the tournament - probably easier for them than the Rugby Championship.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
LI Bohemian 03 February, 2020 23:47
Quote:
HMRH
The problem with both leagues is there just arenít teams outside that at good enough to make an impression. Falcons will win the league and so will Saracens and the Prem team relegated after that and so on
Italy are still better than Georgia and would win 9/10 games so why go through the charade?

I think Pirates if they ever get thier ground finished will emerge from the championship and stop being a feeder club to chefs.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
SixNineOne 04 February, 2020 10:34
I'd like to see the likes of Pirates, Ealing and Coventry (if they can continue their progress) come up into the Premiership, but not at the expense of any of the existing teams. In previous threads on this topic people have postulated a 14 team premiership or a 16 team one with two conferences. If you want to grow the sport that seems the obvious way to go rather than kick out one of the current teams every year.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
tatthecraic2 04 February, 2020 11:49
I think we need a temporary Ring fence. say 5 years.

Prem so unstable. if you get relegated you have to fire people and restructure your club. then if you come straight back up you have to spend that money re hiring again or try and go at the premiership with a championship set up (so to speak)

5 years would allow relegation candidates to develop their teams and create stability including developing their (our) player and support base around a guaranteed premiership team.

this would also allow those in the Championship who actually want to be promoted (remember only a handful are actually interested in the Prem) to get their eligibility criteria in place and build their business, club, home venue up to be ready in a sustainable as possible way.

finally, this could lead to an expansion of the premiership, because if it turns out that only Newcastle, Ealing, and Cornish are eligible to be premiership candidates then maybe shuffle them up and promote into the championship from below...

although downside is that the Prem would have more games... but better developed squads due to stability of the teams may be able to rotate more successfully...

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Florida 04 February, 2020 15:12
Quote:
tatthecraic2
this would also allow those in the Championship who actually want to be promoted (remember only a handful are actually interested in the Prem) to get their eligibility criteria in place and build their business, club, home venue up to be ready in a sustainable as possible way.
lly

Out of interest what is stopping them doing that in the current situation?

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
tatthecraic2 04 February, 2020 16:39
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
tatthecraic2
this would also allow those in the Championship who actually want to be promoted (remember only a handful are actually interested in the Prem) to get their eligibility criteria in place and build their business, club, home venue up to be ready in a sustainable as possible way.
lly

Out of interest what is stopping them doing that in the current situation?

In My Opinion it's stability, time and money.

to be Prem ready you need investment and money, if you look like you could be genuine prem prospect you could be more likely to attract investment. (i know that Bristol always had a backer in the Championship but not everyone is that blessed) Long term stability in terms of knowing where you'll be will prevent things from happening like London Welsh where they threw everything into promotion and failed so badly they aren't even a professional team 5 years later.

if there is no promotion for 5 years you could Argue everyone is on a level playing field no one will invest or join a club pretty guaranteed not to win the championship as the history of the Prem team yo-yo - ing back up again.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
SixNineOne 05 February, 2020 14:12
Quote:
Florida
Out of interest what is stopping them doing that in the current situation?
Presumably the main barrier is that each year there is a cuckoo in the Championship nest in the form of the relegated Premiership team which is generally better financed and has managed to hold on to enough good players to nab the promotion spot. I know that Bristol bucked this trend when they lost the play-offs to Exeter and, in doing so, gave untold grist to the mill for the ringfencing debate, but Most of the time itís been a procession of yo-yos in the relegation and promotion slots.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
BaltiBoy 05 February, 2020 17:35
Just curious but are Premier clubs rewarded an incremental financial bonus for the final position they finish in like football's Premier league?

If not would this be the answer to ensuring competitive matches under a ring fenced scenario?



Cheers & Beers
BB

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
LLL 05 February, 2020 18:46
The huge monologue posts are too painful to read. Keep it succinct guys.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
tatthecraic2 05 February, 2020 20:03
Quote:
LLL
The huge monologue posts are too painful to read. Keep it succinct guys.

It's a discussion forum... you'll need to describe your opinion which sometimes takes a few lines

If you cant read or have the attention span of a sma child. Then I'd suggest logging off.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
Tom1215 05 February, 2020 23:21
I was originally against ring fencing but after seeing how Newcastle are destroying the league already I personally think itís gotta happen for a few years. The championship teams even Ealing and Pirates are so far behind being prem standard.

Re: Why ringfencing in the premership would be a disaster
SixNineOne 06 February, 2020 15:54
Quote:
LLL
The huge monologue posts are too painful to read. Keep it succinct guys.
Sorry. A lot of my posts are monologues...


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