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France v England
Discussion started by Shawshank , 02 February, 2020 15:33
France v England
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 15:33
Looks like Eddie’s bizarre selection of a back row of two 7’s and a lock is coming to to roost.

Ollivon and Aldritt running riot.

Farrell looks injured and we haven’t won one aerial ball yet.

Need to score before h-t...

Re: France v England
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 15:37
Another high ball lost. Poor old Furbank is having a mare...

Re: France v England
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 15:48
We need a Christophe Lamaison 2nd half from all those years ago...

Re: France v England
Smudge21 02 February, 2020 15:52
Horrible first half from england, the lack of an 8 is very evident.
Youngs and farrell are very pedestrian

Re: France v England
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 16:12
Dombrandt would have barged over in that set...

Re: France v England
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 16:16
Lawes is about the only bloke making a decent contribution. Rest of the starters look like they’ve been drugged with sleeping tablets.

Re: France v England
Shawshank 02 February, 2020 17:03
Good effort in the second half but we were very tame in the first.

Bringing in Dombrandt is absolutely essential. Ewells very quiet, start with Kruis.

And surely Heinz or someone like Robson should start at 9

Eddie needs to eat humble pie, as if we lose to the jocks he might as well pack his bags...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2020 17:05 by Shawshank.

Re: France v England
LI Bohemian 02 February, 2020 17:27
Absolutely no intensity notably in the first half, Eddy's stubbornness is his downfall, the game always needs a recognised number 8, it is a difficult position and part of the spine of the team along with fullback, scrum half, stand off and Hooker. Scrum half needs special attention as Youngs is just not good enough, neither is Hinze, England dominated the scrum but could not translate that into attack.

Re: France v England
echidna 02 February, 2020 17:29
Excellent performance from a young, energetic, creative French side. England by comparison looked dull & slow (Jonny May excepted). Farrell is a liability!

Re: France v England
orsoncart 02 February, 2020 18:25
England had over 60pc possession and over 70pc territory, but could have played til Christmas without scoring a try (may’s two were excellent individual efforts).

Really shocking, the 8,9,10, 12 combination was abysmal, but Eddie stays with them.

The French with their flair plus Sean Edwards’ defence looked a good bit better and deserved to win in a bit of a canter

Re: France v England
Florida 02 February, 2020 18:44
Quote:
orsoncart
Really shocking, the 8,9,10, 12 combination was abysmal, but Eddie stays with them.
The French with their flair plus Sean Edwards’ defence looked a good bit better and deserved to win in a bit of a canter

That 9, 10, 12 combo dominated NZ. There was no french flair, none.

Don't get me wrong, our 9 and 12 should have been brought off around about half time I don't think that would have changed the game.

We didn't see any french flair, when we do they'll be back to world beaters. That said, Owens probably needs to take a long hard look at himself.

Re: France v England
millhillexile 02 February, 2020 18:52
England were very poor until midway through 2nd half but I don’t see what Owens needs to take a long hard look at himself for?

Re: France v England
Florida 02 February, 2020 19:04
Quote:
millhillexile
England were very poor until midway through 2nd half but I don’t see what Owens needs to take a long hard look at himself for?

Well it was because he was a bit @#$%& millhill. Obviously England were dire and absolute garbage throughout most of that match, but Mr Owens was nowhere near the standard an international ref should be at. He certainly didn't swing the result in Frances favour, but he was still absolutely dire.

Re: France v England
orsoncart 02 February, 2020 19:27
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
orsoncart
Really shocking, the 8,9,10, 12 combination was abysmal, but Eddie stays with them.
The French with their flair plus Sean Edwards’ defence looked a good bit better and deserved to win in a bit of a canter

That 9, 10, 12 combo dominated NZ. There was no french flair, none.

Don't get me wrong, our 9 and 12 should have been brought off around about half time I don't think that would have changed the game.

We didn't see any french flair, when we do they'll be back to world beaters. That said, Owens probably needs to take a long hard look at himself.

Tell you what, there was a fair bit of flair around that third try! As for the combo, you didn’t mention the No 8 - I agree that Youngs was desperate and Farrell just not at the races. The post match interview when he thought that they should have played differently because of the rain beggared belief. Can no one take charge and change course on the field?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2020 19:28 by orsoncart.

Re: France v England
SirBurger 02 February, 2020 19:58
Furbank didn’t dominate the skies but was better than Daly has ever been in that role. Give the bloke a chance.

Re: France v England
Paul_D 02 February, 2020 20:56
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
millhillexile
England were very poor until midway through 2nd half but I don’t see what Owens needs to take a long hard look at himself for?

Well it was because he was a bit @#$%& millhill. Obviously England were dire and absolute garbage throughout most of that match, but Mr Owens was nowhere near the standard an international ref should be at. He certainly didn't swing the result in Frances favour, but he was still absolutely dire.

Can you give some examples of Nigel’s dire performance please. Because as far as I could see he communicated really well with the players as he always does and got pretty much every decision spot on.

Re: France v England
x_ile 02 February, 2020 21:21
Perhaps Eddie should spend more time teaching his teams to win and a lot less shooting his mouth off about what England are going to do to the opposition. (Sm100)

Re: France v England
orsoncart 02 February, 2020 21:28
10 days dry weather training in Portugal looks like ideal preparation for rain in Paris and heaven knows what in Edinburgh

Re: France v England
Bazzo 02 February, 2020 21:37
Owens still the best international ref by some way. No idea what he did wrong, no way did he effect the result

Re: France v England
Paul_D 02 February, 2020 22:14
Quote:
orsoncart
10 days dry weather training in Portugal looks like ideal preparation for rain in Paris and heaven knows what in Edinburgh

Yup, how dare Eddie not know what the weather would be like in Paris 10 days into the future, let alone Edinburgh in another week’s time.

Re: France v England
Smudge21 02 February, 2020 22:20
Did anyone else think the second french try was a knock on?

Re: France v England
Florida 02 February, 2020 22:38
Quote:
orsoncart
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
orsoncart
Really shocking, the 8,9,10, 12 combination was abysmal, but Eddie stays with them.
The French with their flair plus Sean Edwards’ defence looked a good bit better and deserved to win in a bit of a canter

That 9, 10, 12 combo dominated NZ. There was no french flair, none.

Don't get me wrong, our 9 and 12 should have been brought off around about half time I don't think that would have changed the game.

We didn't see any french flair, when we do they'll be back to world beaters. That said, Owens probably needs to take a long hard look at himself.

Tell you what, there was a fair bit of flair around that third try! As for the combo, you didn’t mention the No 8 - I agree that Youngs was desperate and Farrell just not at the races. The post match interview when he thought that they should have played differently because of the rain beggared belief. Can no one take charge and change course on the field?

I didn't mention the 8 because that wasn't the 8 against NZ.

Your last sentence really sums up this side for me. it seems they're told to go out and play a certain way and when it works, great, but when it doesn't they are unable to adapt to what is in front of them.

Re: France v England
Florida 02 February, 2020 22:41
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
millhillexile
England were very poor until midway through 2nd half but I don’t see what Owens needs to take a long hard look at himself for?

Well it was because he was a bit @#$%& millhill. Obviously England were dire and absolute garbage throughout most of that match, but Mr Owens was nowhere near the standard an international ref should be at. He certainly didn't swing the result in Frances favour, but he was still absolutely dire.

Can you give some examples of Nigel’s dire performance please. Because as far as I could see he communicated really well with the players as he always does and got pretty much every decision spot on.

Sure. Player goes over the line for a try, could have grounded it, may have been held up. Couldn't be bothered to check upstairs even with a break in play. Can't officiate the offside line to save his life, a few times the French runners were well ahead of the kicker (not just his fault, the ARs should have got involved).

Re: France v England
Florida 02 February, 2020 22:42
Quote:
Bazzo
Owens still the best international ref by some way. No idea what he did wrong, no way did he effect the result

Clearly stated he didn't swing the result.

Re: France v England
Heaf 03 February, 2020 00:42
Quote:
Smudge21
Did anyone else think the second french try was a knock on?

Yes I did - and so did all the pundits on the BBC ...

Re: France v England
Heaf 03 February, 2020 00:49
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
millhillexile
England were very poor until midway through 2nd half but I don’t see what Owens needs to take a long hard look at himself for?

Well it was because he was a bit @#$%& millhill. Obviously England were dire and absolute garbage throughout most of that match, but Mr Owens was nowhere near the standard an international ref should be at. He certainly didn't swing the result in Frances favour, but he was still absolutely dire.

Can you give some examples of Nigel’s dire performance please. Because as far as I could see he communicated really well with the players as he always does and got pretty much every decision spot on.

Sure. Player goes over the line for a try, could have grounded it, may have been held up. Couldn't be bothered to check upstairs even with a break in play. Can't officiate the offside line to save his life, a few times the French runners were well ahead of the kicker (not just his fault, the ARs should have got involved).

Yes I noticed the clear offsides in front of the kicker on more than one occasion, plus hands on the ground in front of the line when we were attacking their try-line ... also missed taking out off the ball and some iffy turnovers eg tackler not releasing and hands scooping the ball back after a ruck was formed ... having said that pretty much what every ref misses every game as the general standard is not great.

Re: France v England
echidna 03 February, 2020 01:13
Quote:
Yes I did - and so did all the pundits on the BBC ...

But not the TMO ........

Re: France v England
Paul_D 03 February, 2020 07:26
Quote:
Florida

Sure. Player goes over the line for a try, could have grounded it, may have been held up. Couldn't be bothered to check upstairs even with a break in play.

Because he clearly saw the ball was held up, and the numerous replays showed he got the decision spot on.

Re: France v England
Florida 03 February, 2020 07:57
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Florida

Sure. Player goes over the line for a try, could have grounded it, may have been held up. Couldn't be bothered to check upstairs even with a break in play.

Because he clearly saw the ball was held up, and the numerous replays showed he got the decision spot on.

You can't clearly see something when there's a mass of bodies in the way. The replays showed he was correct, but that doesn't detract from the fact he should have checked it.

Re: France v England
x_ile 03 February, 2020 08:24
Never ceases to amaze me how many international class referees are being wasted by being forced to sit in the stands or in front of a tv at home. (Sm56)

Re: France v England
Paul_D 03 February, 2020 08:43
Quote:
Florida

You can't clearly see something when there's a mass of bodies in the way. The replays showed he was correct, but that doesn't detract from the fact he should have checked it.

So which scenario do you think actually happened then.......

1 - Owens can't see if the ball is held up or grounded because of a mass of bodies in the way but can't be bothered to check with the TMO so just guesses that the ball was held up and hopes he's right?

2 - He can see the ball is held up as he's standing right there so has no need to ask the TMO?

I'm not saying he got every decision spot on, no referee ever does, but to suggest in that passage of play that he "couldn't be bothered to check upstairs" is ludicrous.

Re: France v England
Florida 03 February, 2020 09:07
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Florida

You can't clearly see something when there's a mass of bodies in the way. The replays showed he was correct, but that doesn't detract from the fact he should have checked it.

So which scenario do you think actually happened then.......

1 - Owens can't see if the ball is held up or grounded because of a mass of bodies in the way but can't be bothered to check with the TMO so just guesses that the ball was held up and hopes he's right?

2 - He can see the ball is held up as he's standing right there so has no need to ask the TMO?

I'm not saying he got every decision spot on, no referee ever does, but to suggest in that passage of play that he "couldn't be bothered to check upstairs" is ludicrous.

I'm saying he *thinks* the ball is held up. Simple as that. He can't be 100% certain, the ball only needs to brush the ground for it to be a try. To be 100% certain he needs to go to the TMO. He didn't.

Re: France v England
Florida 03 February, 2020 09:10
Quote:
x_ile
Never ceases to amaze me how many international class referees are being wasted by being forced to sit in the stands or in front of a tv at home. (Sm56)

Are only international class referees allowed to comment on referees? My apologies I hadn't realised that was the case. I had assumed I was on a message board with other rugby fans where one can discuss and debate various aspects of the game.

I assume only international level coaches are allowed to question Jones selection choice too?

Re: France v England
LI Bohemian 03 February, 2020 10:41
I think Owens had a decent game, most of the criticism, for me is for the TMOs and touch judges, they didn't help at all, it seemed amazing that the dabbing down of the ball for May's first try could be reviewed with such clarity when needed but the knock on for France's second was not clear at all.
I thought that the Genge tackle was a yellow as the player was in the air when tackled. Most offsides are given via touch judges in recent times.

Eddy needs to pick a team that play in the positions that they play in, for their clubs, and start picking form players, I don't care what the Saracen players say, it seems pretty clear something is affecting their game.

Re: France v England
AlecW 03 February, 2020 11:01
My frustrations yesterday were:

1) England's seeming lethargy / complacency - did they think 'turn up, execute gameplan, win, go home'?

2) Alarming lack of go-forward / a penetrating ball carrier. Was Jones guilty of hubris or stubbornness, in not picking a Dombrandt, Hughes, Simmonds, Mako Vunipola or whoever to get England over the gain line? I know Tuilagi was at centre, but look what happened when he went off with over three quarters to play. Was he really fit...? Or what about Jack Nowell, who seems always to bring the zip and pace that England were woefully lacking yesterday.

3) Lack of a specialist No8 cruelly exposed Curry for what he is. An excellent flanker, but not a No8.

4) Poor Furbank looked lost. Cruelly exposed. Pity Watson pulled up unfit a few days before the game, but Daly would probably have done better, IMNVHO.

5) Farrell looked ... awful. See Stuart Barnes in today's Times. Joseph achieved not a lot. Ditto Lawes. Ditto Underhill. Ditto Ewells

6) Youngs was slower to clear the ball from the breakdown even than some LI scrummies of recent vintage. His kicking was awful and he is past his sell-by date IMNVHO

7) the brainless persistence in trying to smash the ball over the line through the forwards when it was quite clear after umpty-um attempts that was going nowhere (and when several times there was a big overlap out wide).

8) France were good, even very good, but not THAT good. They didn't have to be.

Thank God the forecast for Edinburgh on Saturday is fine (at the moment)...! Play like that again and England could easily lose and probably will.

Gah!

Re: France v England
Shawshank 03 February, 2020 11:02
Agreed that the Sarries players seemed far less effective than normal. Not really surprising.

Scotland looked very dynamic against Ireland and really should have won. They must be warm favourites for Saturday if Eddie carries on with his weird selections.

Re: France v England
Shawshank 03 February, 2020 11:08
Alec - I think a dry day will suit the Scottish dynamic running game plan more than our’s, esp if Box-Kick Ben plays at 9

Re: France v England
AlecW 03 February, 2020 11:39
Fair comment, Shankers...

We could do with Danny Care being recalled from the twilight zone, perhaps? Or simply pick one of the 2-3 scrummies who are playing well this season (as opposed to 'in the past') like Spencer...

Re: France v England
Heaf 03 February, 2020 11:48
Quote:
echidna
Quote:
Yes I did - and so did all the pundits on the BBC ...

But not the TMO ........

Obviously ... still think he was wrong though.

Re: France v England
Florida 03 February, 2020 11:51
Quote:
AlecW
Fair comment, Shankers...
We could do with Danny Care being recalled from the twilight zone, perhaps? Or simply pick one of the 2-3 scrummies who are playing well this season (as opposed to 'in the past') like Spencer...

Saw a bit of Care this weekend, passing looked pretty crisp, certainly didn't see anything get thrown straight to touch. I did only watch about 5 - 10 mins of the entire game though.

Re: France v England
SixNineOne 03 February, 2020 12:29
It's all too easy to criticise England's performance on Sunday and the previous posts have enumerated the manifest failings of individuals, the team and the coaches. What will be really interesting over the next several days is what they do about it. Several of us have already highlighted the team's apparent inability to vary the game plan when it isn't working on the pitch - now they're back on the training field will they have the nous to come up with something different to take to Murrayfield next weekend? For my part I'd like to see things mixed up a bit, but I fear we'll be served up the same old stodge again...

Re: France v England
Shawshank 03 February, 2020 13:28
Harry Randall would be an interesting pick...

4Re: France v England
LI Bohemian 03 February, 2020 13:50
If the selection next week includes either Dombrandt, Hughes or Simmons that's a lesson learnt by Eddie, if it also includes either Robson or Care even better. The trouble seems to be Eddie is a slow ship to turn, but when the penny drops he is brutal e.g. Brown Robshaw.

Re: France v England
AlecW 03 February, 2020 14:00
Is Jones actually allowed to call up players from outside his squad?

Asking cos I genuinely don't know...

Re: France v England
paulm1953 03 February, 2020 14:40
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Florida

Sure. Player goes over the line for a try, could have grounded it, may have been held up. Couldn't be bothered to check upstairs even with a break in play.

Because he clearly saw the ball was held up, and the numerous replays showed he got the decision spot on.

You can't clearly see something when there's a mass of bodies in the way. The replays showed he was correct, but that doesn't detract from the fact he should have checked it.

Florida - The reason why Nigel Owen didn't need to consult the TMO is he positioned himself to see the ball being held up.

It is a terrible shame that England lost.

Get over it.

Re: France v England
LI Bohemian 03 February, 2020 15:37
Rule no42 of the Message Board

Criticism of official = Bad loser

Re: France v England
Steelman 03 February, 2020 16:17
Always seem to enjoy games reffed by Nigel,.He keeps the game moving and
has the nous to to spot both sides indiscretions,unlike some of the one eyed @#$%& we suffer in the Prem ...uhrr but it was a knock on imvho.👓

Re: France v England
Florida 03 February, 2020 17:25
Quote:
paulm1953
Quote:
Florida
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Florida

Sure. Player goes over the line for a try, could have grounded it, may have been held up. Couldn't be bothered to check upstairs even with a break in play.

Because he clearly saw the ball was held up, and the numerous replays showed he got the decision spot on.

You can't clearly see something when there's a mass of bodies in the way. The replays showed he was correct, but that doesn't detract from the fact he should have checked it.

Florida - The reason why Nigel Owen didn't need to consult the TMO is he positioned himself to see the ball being held up.

It is a terrible shame that England lost.

Get over it.

At which point was he in a position to see it was held up? Here's the video to refresh your memory

[youtu.be]

I look forward to hearing how he's able to categorically state from being behind a mound of bodies that at no point did it brush the ground.

Re: France v England
SixNineOne 03 February, 2020 17:36
I too am a fan of Nigel Owens’ refereeing style. He doesn’t take any nonsense but has the humour and feel for the game to keep it flowing and to keep both sets of players and supporters broadly “onside”. I think he is often let down, however, by poor adjudication from the assistant referees who seem particularly challenged in seeing offsides and forward passes that are obvious both to the crowd and the tv audience. The TMO role is a difficult one. His job is to assist the referee by highlighting foul play spotted after the event and to provide analysis of tries that may or may not have been scored. At all times though, he should be an adviser to the referee and not a judge. It’s also worth remembering that the TMO has to work with the footage that the broadcaster gives him and I suspect that in some cases this is not ideal. So we as rugby fans need to decide whether we want a mere adviser to the man in the middle who might not get it right 100% of the time, or an eagle eyed but pedantic TMO who wont let the referee reach his own decision. In this regard, Ben Skeen comes to mind - a man who has never knowingly given a decision in England’s favour...

Re: France v England
LI Bohemian 04 February, 2020 09:44
After looking through various news papers this morning, it seems that they are saying what most the MB's are saying.
We need a recognised number 8, Farrell needs a rest, scrum halves for the future need to be developed.
I can't see that happening, I think Eddie's gone a bit like Bomber and is over complicating the game.

Re: France v England
SixNineOne 04 February, 2020 10:28
Not sure if it's behind a paywall, but if you can access it I thought this article by Nick Evans had some good insights: [www.theguardian.com]

Re: France v England
paulm1953 04 February, 2020 16:27
Florida - Humble apologises. I thought Nigel Owen was closer to the action.

Re: France v England
Florida 05 February, 2020 08:55
Quote:
paulm1953
Florida - Humble apologises. I thought Nigel Owen was closer to the action.

No problem at all, we all miss things in the heat of the action.


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