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2nd half implosion
Discussion started by Exilepaul , 01 March, 2020 16:21
2nd half implosion
Exilepaul 01 March, 2020 16:21
2 steps forward 1 back that 2nd half was as bad the 1st half v Bath. Embarrassing.

Re: 2nd half implosion
cjm. 01 March, 2020 16:34
Quote:
Exilepaul
2 steps forward 1 back that 2nd half was as bad the 1st half v Bath. Embarrassing.

Agreed. Subbing the scrum-half was a dick move IMO. To compound this the laziness and lack of attention being paid which then gave Wasps free ball.

I think all this camel-training has made the ruck too methodical and brains switch off. Lost count of the times that no-one was defending or paying attention.

Re: 2nd half implosion
dooj106 01 March, 2020 16:47
I am not going to share all the doom and gloom comments that appear everytime we lose a game. Yes it was disappointing but the lads showed a serious effort from the whole squad to make sure we came away with something from the game and the final league positions will come down to the odd point.

We all knew that if we couldn't slow Wasps ball down it was going to be tough and we Couldn't do that. Credit to wasps they were very clinical. It is a far cry from the Sale and Bath performances

We re-group and go again next week in what will be a toughie at Sale but our away form has been pretty decent recently so fingers crossed that continues

Re: 2nd half implosion
Exilepaul 01 March, 2020 16:56
Quote:
dooj106
I am not going to share all the doom and gloom comments that appear everytime we lose a game. Yes it was disappointing but the lads showed a serious effort from the whole squad to make sure we came away with something from the game and the final league positions will come down to the odd point.
We all knew that if we couldn't slow Wasps ball down it was going to be tough and we Couldn't do that. Credit to wasps they were very clinical. It is a far cry from the Sale and Bath performances

We re-group and go again next week in what will be a toughie at Sale but our away form has been pretty decent recently so fingers crossed that continues

The idiot who done the fixtures mean it's a 5 day turn around for us. Brutal

Re: 2nd half implosion
Tom1215 01 March, 2020 16:58
Jesus calm down. We lost with a bonus point against a strong wasps side who put 60 on saracens last week. We definitely have taken 1 step back.
Weíve just come up from the championship if you canít remember and weíve just put a 3 game winning streak together. Yeah we lost but your support for this club is laughable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2020 16:59 by Tom1215.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Shawshank 01 March, 2020 17:05
Yep, apart from a very poor 20 mins we matched a good Wasps team, and showed great spirit to get the BP at the end.

But the decision to bring on Phipps was the turning point, Iím afraid the guy is desperately slow and error ridden. How did he win 70 caps...?! Meehan was having a great game and could/should have played at least another 10-15 mins.

Yet again Willis killed us at the breakdown, but we didnít really learn from Match 1 and we regularly played into their hands by lack of support for our ball carrier.

Re: 2nd half implosion
cjm. 01 March, 2020 17:13
Quote:
Shawshank
But the decision to bring on Phipps was the turning point, Iím afraid the guy is desperately slow and error ridden. How did he win 70 caps...?! Meehan was having a great game and could/should have played at least another 10-15 mins.

As above, agreed. All smacks of automatic substitutions regardless of what is happening on the field.
And that is what is frustrating, because that match was there for the winning.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Vespulavulgaris 01 March, 2020 17:25
I thought you guys played really well and I really didn't expect us to get the win. I genuinely think the difference was the low sun. You could see our guys stuggling against the high ball in the first half and it stopped us getting any foothold in the game.

Thanks for the hospitality from the folk I met there.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Smudge21 01 March, 2020 17:25
We should have been further ahead at half time by at least another score. It was disappointing that we just seemed to lose focus for about 20 minutes of the second half and you cannot do that against a premiership team with quality players.

Re: 2nd half implosion
HMRH 01 March, 2020 18:17
Beeakdown and scrum caused us issues. Jack Willis was a proper nuisance and thatís a work on for us I think. We seemed to struggle in the scrum especially second half which gave them momentum and penalties.

Nowhere near as bad as the Bath game but we did get very loose and it cost us. Great determination at the end to play out from our line to score the BP.

Re: 2nd half implosion
LI Bohemian 01 March, 2020 18:20
I agree with Shanks, the subbing of Meehan was crazy, wasps kept Robson on until the very end when the game was won

Re: 2nd half implosion
wombles222 01 March, 2020 18:28
Wasp in peace! The wife and I very much enjoyed our day at the madstad (although the result does help that). I genuinely enjoyed sharing the game with fans around us! And really enjoyed the chat the wife and I had with the older couple -Her husband played for Wasps back in the day- who we were sat next to, a real credit to rugby and your support!

Your lads deserved the TBP, never gave up, and that is a fantastic quality to have! Good luck for the rest of the season, I can see top 6 and HC rugby being very achievable by your lads!

Re: 2nd half implosion
Exilepaul 01 March, 2020 18:33
Quote:
Tom1215
Jesus calm down. We lost with a bonus point against a strong wasps side who put 60 on saracens last week. We definitely have taken 1 step back.
Weíve just come up from the championship if you canít remember and weíve just put a 3 game winning streak together. Yeah we lost but your support for this club is laughable.

Tom we arent that club anymore where we are happy with scraping bonus points against no disrespect to wasps but average premiership teams at home, we have spent up to the salary cap have british and irish lions, world cup winners and over 20 full internationals in our senior squad if you think that 2nd half was good enough then good on you but my expectations are higher than that smiling smiley

Re: 2nd half implosion
Margin_Walker 01 March, 2020 18:40
Quote:
Exilepaul
Quote:
Tom1215
Jesus calm down. We lost with a bonus point against a strong wasps side who put 60 on saracens last week. We definitely have taken 1 step back.
Weíve just come up from the championship if you canít remember and weíve just put a 3 game winning streak together. Yeah we lost but your support for this club is laughable.

Tom we arent that club anymore where we are happy with scraping bonus points against no disrespect to wasps but average premiership teams at home, we have spent up to the salary cap have british and irish lions, world cup winners and over 20 full internationals in our senior squad if you think that 2nd half was good enough then good on you but my expectations are higher than that smiling smiley

Not sure LI and you are a great fit Paul.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Smudge21 01 March, 2020 18:42
The most frustrating part is that various players when previewing the match mentioned how crucial the breakdown would be yet we didn't really seem to have an answer to wasps and particularly Willis.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Shawshank 01 March, 2020 18:43
Lion - crocked for the whole season, but granted he talks a good game.

Not sure who our RWC winner is but if he exists he doesnít seem to get on the pitch v much.

Wasps are a good team, Robson, Umaga, Gopperth and Fekitoa possibly the best 9,10,12 and 13 in the league.

Yes, disappointing to lose but it is not a crisis, esp. as every team seems capable of beating everyone else - even Exeter.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Vespulavulgaris 01 March, 2020 19:16
Quote:
Smudge21
The most frustrating part is that various players when previewing the match mentioned how crucial the breakdown would be yet we didn't really seem to have an answer to wasps and particularly Willis.

In fairness not many teams do have an answer to Willis. He's amazing...

Shame the rest aren't at his level.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Smudge21 01 March, 2020 19:50
Quote:
Vespulavulgaris
Quote:
Smudge21
The most frustrating part is that various players when previewing the match mentioned how crucial the breakdown would be yet we didn't really seem to have an answer to wasps and particularly Willis.

In fairness not many teams do have an answer to Willis. He's amazing...

Shame the rest aren't at his level.
Yep Eddie must find a way to get him into the england fold... Willis, Curry, Underhill and Earl all challenging for the back row is a frightening thought!

Re: 2nd half implosion
Vespulavulgaris 01 March, 2020 20:09
Quote:
Smudge21
Quote:
Vespulavulgaris

In fairness not many teams do have an answer to Willis. He's amazing...

Shame the rest aren't at his level.
Yep Eddie must find a way to get him into the england fold... Willis, Curry, Underhill and Earl all challenging for the back row is a frightening thought!

Certainly a step up from the days of Haskell and Robshaw.

Re: 2nd half implosion
M51 01 March, 2020 20:12
Irish played well but i worry about the mindless kicks back up field with no possible chase. Wasps have a fast and strong midfield it was totally mindless attempts to win back territory. The officiating was pretty woeful, the TMO was vocal in the first half and then went quiet in the second especially for off sides, forward passes etc. The flag waver on the west side second half should have gone home he was never contributing anything. Rant over, Wasps were better over the 80 minutes and deserved to win. COYI

Re: 2nd half implosion
Paul_D 01 March, 2020 21:36
Quote:
Exilepaul
2 steps forward 1 back that 2nd half was as bad the 1st half v Bath. Embarrassing.

No it wasnít. It really wasnít. Stop being such a drama queen. Sometimes you just come up against a better team and today, over 80 minutes Wasps were the better team.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Warleywasp 01 March, 2020 21:36
Wasps Fan In peace
I brought a godson and his current girlfriend and his mum to the game. We were on the halfway line in the East Stand and were treated just like rugby fans would want to be treated. Both youngsters suddenly realised it was not a football stadium but a rugby one and loved the experience. Thank you.

Good game wrong result for you but the best bit for us was the call from the crowd in a quiet non kicking moment "We hate Saracens" and the cheer from all said it all. Probably best I don't comment further for fear of the EA trolls.
Great rugby day out Thank you.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Paul_D 01 March, 2020 23:28
Quote:
Exilepaul

Tom we arent that club anymore where we are happy with scraping bonus points against no disrespect to wasps but average premiership teams at home, we have spent up to the salary cap have british and irish lions, world cup winners and over 20 full internationals in our senior squad if you think that 2nd half was good enough then good on you but my expectations are higher than that smiling smiley

Exilepaul, could you just list the 20 internationals in our senior squad please? Iím struggling a bit to recall them all??

Re: 2nd half implosion
Exilepaul 01 March, 2020 23:38
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Exilepaul

Tom we arent that club anymore where we are happy with scraping bonus points against no disrespect to wasps but average premiership teams at home, we have spent up to the salary cap have british and irish lions, world cup winners and over 20 full internationals in our senior squad if you think that 2nd half was good enough then good on you but my expectations are higher than that smiling smiley

Exilepaul, could you just list the 20 internationals in our senior squad please? Iím struggling a bit to recall them all??

Faing'aa
Matu'u
Cilliars
Dell
Kepu
Coleman
Van Der Merve
Cowan
Mafi
Ioane
O'Brien
Tuisue
Phipps
Jackson
Myler
Campbell
Rona
Naholo
Tuatagaloa

No problem smiling smiley All of these players have played International rugby for their countries

Re: 2nd half implosion
Paul_D 01 March, 2020 23:53
Thatís 19. And hardly full internationals. When did Myler last play International rugby for example? Keep digging mate.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Ruckingood 02 March, 2020 00:47
There were two key issues in the second half IMHO.
1 was the subbing of Meehan. Phipps has been caught many times in the last two games being indecisive leading to turn overs or being lazy at the breakdown. He offers little attacking threat and decision making from unstructured play is poor. Meehan was playing out of his skin so subbing him in a game like this was madness.

Secondly, the inability of both the ref and touch judge/assistant ref to see that 17 was scrumaging sideways as opposed to straight leading to Kepu getting pinged off the park.

Not sure where some people are complaining about the scrum in the first half though barring a rusty start from Elrington. after 2 mins it was solid all day until 17 came on for Wasps.

lastly, as already noted ... ball in two hands when near the line... a great break, fancy footwork and to have it stripped going over is not smart. Great fight back from the lads in that last 8 mins but where was that for the previous 20?

Re: 2nd half implosion
Shawshank 02 March, 2020 08:07
Not sure that the ball in 2 hands applies to wingers, especially as they are steaming for the try line.

It definitely slows you down, and wingers are also ingrained to keep one hand free for the hand-off.

Ben was a bit unlucky as Watson(?) caught him from side/behind.

Maybe he could have dived for the line a la Gareth Edwards, but you rarely see that these days.

Re: 2nd half implosion
backdoc 02 March, 2020 09:00
Odogwu caught him

Re: 2nd half implosion
RodB 02 March, 2020 09:12
Haven't seen the highlights yet and probably won't get shown anyway, but the outrageous forward pass in front of west stand on their 10M line led up to the play where Danny Hobbs got injured and they went on to get their BP try. Neither likely to have occurred with anything like half decent officiating. Wasps still deserved to edge it though.

Re: 2nd half implosion
HMRH 02 March, 2020 11:05
Great tackle on Loader - letís applaud it for what it was. Should have score but the Wasps player pulls off a superb try saving tackle

Re: 2nd half implosion
Smudge21 02 March, 2020 11:15
Yep I wouldn't criticise loader too much, having the ball in one hand helps generate more pace to allow him to burst through the gap. I think the wasps player came from a bit of a blind spot too so I doubt loader saw it coming

Re: 2nd half implosion
Xprop 02 March, 2020 11:37
Quote:
Exilepaul
Quote:
Paul_D
Quote:
Exilepaul

Tom we arent that club anymore where we are happy with scraping bonus points against no disrespect to wasps but average premiership teams at home, we have spent up to the salary cap have british and irish lions, world cup winners and over 20 full internationals in our senior squad if you think that 2nd half was good enough then good on you but my expectations are higher than that smiling smiley

Exilepaul, could you just list the 20 internationals in our senior squad please? Iím struggling a bit to recall them all??

Plus Freddie

Faing'aa
Matu'u
Cilliars
Dell
Kepu
Coleman
Van Der Merve
Cowan
Mafi
Ioane
O'Brien
Tuisue
Phipps
Jackson
Myler
Campbell
Rona
Naholo
Tuatagaloa

No problem smiling smiley All of these players have played International rugby for their countries

Re: 2nd half implosion
GHA 02 March, 2020 11:57
Claims over 20 internationals

Names 19

No problem?

Re: 2nd half implosion
GHA 02 March, 2020 12:28
Player | Country | Caps | Last Capped if not 2019 / 20

Faing'aa - Australia - 36 - 2014
Matu'u - Samoa - 22
Cilliers - South Africa - 6 - 2012
Dell - Scotland - 31
Kepu - Australia - 110
Coleman - Australia - 38
Van Der Merve - South Africa - 1 - 2013
Cowan - Scotland - 17 - 2016
Mafi - Tonga - 33
Ioane - Samoa - 25
O'Brien - Ireland / Lions - 61
Tuisue - Fiji - 7
Phipps - Australia - 72
Jackson - Ireland - 25 - 2017
Myler - England - 1 - 2013
Campbell - USA - 32
Rona - Australia - 3 - 2017
Naholo - New Zealand - 26 - 2018
Tuatagaloa - Samoa - 4
Freddie - Fiji - 12

115 caps shared between players who haven't played a test since 2018
447 caps shared between players who are 'current' internationals (25% of which belong to Kepu)

All taken from the ESPN Rugby Stats site

Re: 2nd half implosion
GMC_LI 02 March, 2020 17:59
Just watched the highlights and well done Wasps, however the TMOís interpretation of the Wasps second-half looseheadís scrummaging for two penalties that led to Wasps tries is baffling. He clearly drives inwards to the Irish hooker on both occasions illegally, you can see the change in his left foot positions on each of them before driving inwards and upwards. Poor officiating at scrums has become such a problem for al of the teams in the competition this season.

Additionally, the try that was awarded after Robsonís break is clearly rolled forward on the floor by Bassett before being grounded by another player.

Wasps were the best of the sides on the day and deserved their victory, just not by that margin.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Raggs 03 March, 2020 11:34
Quote:
GMC_LI
Just watched the highlights and well done Wasps, however the TMOís interpretation of the Wasps second-half looseheadís scrummaging for two penalties that led to Wasps tries is baffling. He clearly drives inwards to the Irish hooker on both occasions illegally, you can see the change in his left foot positions on each of them before driving inwards and upwards. Poor officiating at scrums has become such a problem for al of the teams in the competition this season.
Additionally, the try that was awarded after Robsonís break is clearly rolled forward on the floor by Bassett before being grounded by another player.

Wasps were the best of the sides on the day and deserved their victory, just not by that margin.

Wasps supporter here, but more here for the scrum comments rather than the overall game result, or the fact it was Wasps playing.

To me, yellow 1 gets a slight nudge on green 3, applies the pressure and 3 refuses to go back, leading him to twist in, yellow 1 has no choice but to follow. The start of the clip of the 2nd scrum shows it a bit more clearly, yellow 1 is inline with the rest of his front row, but green 3 is already angling in. His right leg is extremely wide.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Nick4219 03 March, 2020 15:29
I think the officials had a 2nd half implosion!

The two scrums prior to the 2 Wasps tries, Wasps 17 is clearly boring in to out TH, but, on the wrong side for the ref and touch judge appears to have called it. Seen them go either way though to be fair.

Rewind to the first half and I think we could argue that Aloís try was a double movement, clearly tackled and held and then propels himself over the line again using his knees and never released the ball. Scotland had one similar last year against Italy that was pinged for double movement.

At least we got a TBP, would have loved an LBP as not sure if we can get much at Sale next up.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Margin_Walker 03 March, 2020 16:42
Let's not blame the ref here. The scrum calls could have gone either way and the Alo try was fine for me.

We lost because we didn't take advantage of our 1st half dominance, we conceded a heap of unanswered points in a short period and couldn't find and answer to Willis (again).

There will always be the odd harsh call going against you, but that's rugby and the opposing team can usually point to a few that went the other way.

Re: 2nd half implosion
cjm. 03 March, 2020 16:46
Quote:
Nick4219
I think the officials had a 2nd half implosion!
The two scrums prior to the 2 Wasps tries, Wasps 17 is clearly boring in to out TH, but, on the wrong side for the ref and touch judge appears to have called it. Seen them go either way though to be fair.

Rewind to the first half and I think we could argue that Aloís try was a double movement, clearly tackled and held and then propels himself over the line again using his knees and never released the ball. Scotland had one similar last year against Italy that was pinged for double movement.

At least we got a TBP, would have loved an LBP as not sure if we can get much at Sale next up.

Said at the time thought it was a double movement. Mainly caused he was grounded then used another leg drive to get over. You are only allowed to place after being stopped IIRC

Re: 2nd half implosion
Florida 03 March, 2020 17:03
Quote:
Margin_Walker
Let's not blame the ref here. The scrum calls could have gone either way and the Alo try was fine for me.
We lost because we didn't take advantage of our 1st half dominance, we conceded a heap of unanswered points in a short period and couldn't find and answer to Willis (again).

There will always be the odd harsh call going against you, but that's rugby and the opposing team can usually point to a few that went the other way.

Well said MW

Re: 2nd half implosion
Raggs 03 March, 2020 17:12
I thought potential double movement, my guess is the ref suspected he was driven over by the wasps support, rather than making the movement himself.

In perfect truth, I suspect the ref was getting tired of Irish infringements, didn't want to give a yellow, and the try was an easy out.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Nick4219 03 March, 2020 17:25
Quote:
Raggs
I thought potential double movement, my guess is the ref suspected he was driven over by the wasps support, rather than making the movement himself.
In perfect truth, I suspect the ref was getting tired of Irish infringements, didn't want to give a yellow, and the try was an easy out.

I agree there, the try definitely saved us from losing a player for 10 minutes.

Iím not blaming the ref for the defeat, but, the quick succession of scrum penalties (that could have gone the other way) allowed Wasps to score two quick tries and open up an unassailable lead.

Re: 2nd half implosion
Raggs 03 March, 2020 17:28
Quote:
Nick4219
Quote:
Raggs
I thought potential double movement, my guess is the ref suspected he was driven over by the wasps support, rather than making the movement himself.
In perfect truth, I suspect the ref was getting tired of Irish infringements, didn't want to give a yellow, and the try was an easy out.

I agree there, the try definitely saved us from losing a player for 10 minutes.

Iím not blaming the ref for the defeat, but, the quick succession of scrum penalties (that could have gone the other way) allowed Wasps to score two quick tries and open up an unassailable lead.

Already posted my opinion on the scrum pens, perhaps they could have gone either way, but I feel they went the right way (even whilst trying not to look through Wasps tinted glasses).

Re: 2nd half implosion
LI Bohemian 03 March, 2020 18:10
Irish got pinged at the very start of the game at scrum time, first a free kick then the resulting reset was a full pen, we had all game to work out how to change this, we were awarded no penalties at scrum time even when in the second half we had pushed wasps back and they had broken off, about 15 metres out, it is just the way the officials read it.
I agree with MW that it was not down to the officials, you have to adapt, if you can't adapt then it is normally that the opposing pack has you on toast.
I would point to the superior 9&10 wasps had when Meehan was subbed that led to the game imploring for us

Re: 2nd half implosion
Ruckingood 04 March, 2020 07:23
Quote:
LI Bohemian
Irish got pinged at the very start of the game at scrum time, first a free kick then the resulting reset was a full pen, we had all game to work out how to change this, we were awarded no penalties at scrum time even when in the second half we had pushed wasps back and they had broken off, about 15 metres out, it is just the way the officials read it.
I agree with MW that it was not down to the officials, you have to adapt, if you can't adapt then it is normally that the opposing pack has you on toast.
I would point to the superior 9&10 wasps had when Meehan was subbed that led to the game imploring for us

Re the scrum comments - If you watch the first couple of scrums, Wasps are mucking around, not taking the pressure and pulling back and ref pings Irish - fair call - its called milking.. from then on until the Wasps 17 came on, no issues and a fair craic by both sides. Once 17 comes on it is obvious to all, inc Blind Freddy, baring the ref and touch judge, that he is boring in which is illegal... the laws state that you must scrum straight... its quite easy to pick and yet it happens most weeks. Ben Obano is another who loves to angle in and for a lump of a lad, does not do a lot when he has to scrum properly. In defense of the illegalities, as a 100 cap international you would expect to have a strategy to counter this not so rare occurrence.. figure out why you are getting folded and adjust.. hmmm

Re: 2nd half implosion
Raggs 04 March, 2020 09:40
Ref, touch judge, and me. 3 is twisted in by the pressure from one. I'm guessing with his right foot all the way out, he basically has no power/weight really going through it, and ends up trying to hold on one leg, which makes it really tough to stay straight.


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