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Buying talent Vs building a team?
Discussion started by Ruckingood , 09 March, 2020 00:54
Buying talent Vs building a team?
Ruckingood 09 March, 2020 00:54
A very interesting video from Ben Darwin, ex Wallabies Prop on the analysis of whether "money ball" or buying stars can aid a team long term if they don't jell in a team framework.

[www.youtube.com]

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
BaltiBoy 09 March, 2020 11:35
Not had a chance to watch video yet but initial thoughts are that you have to gamble on the buying approach in the hope your team gels.

Irish arguably more than any prem team have suffered by bringing through top talent only to see it siphoned off by the clubs with the money.

Rugby is becoming more and more like football these days where success is generally bought rather than internally created. Just think Man City, Liverpool, Barca, Juve and Real. The only real time this trend was bucked was when Fergie won with the class of '92.

The CVC money this year has without doubt made us competitive this year, without it I think it's fair to say we wouldn't be occupying our current decent league position.

Whilst it's lovely to see young talent being developed, supporters of professional clubs in the very top leagues (as illustrated by our dwindling attendances) are more and more demanding of success. Thus a purchased team with the hope of immediate cohesion is in my opinion the only way to go at the highest professional level to guarantee success. A great team may also take years to gel, time which coaches are often not afforded or chairman prepared to give.

One could argue Exeter have done a great job in getting a team to gel without throwing money at it, however the fact that Saracens have trumped them on every occasion further supports the buying approach (sadly) wins every time.



Cheers & Beers
BB



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2020 12:00 by BaltiBoy.

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
LI Bohemian 09 March, 2020 13:40
Quote:
BaltiBoy
Not had a chance to watch video yet but initial thoughts are that you have to gamble on the buying approach in the hope your team gels.
Irish arguably more than any prem team have suffered by bringing through top talent only to see it siphoned off by the clubs with the money.

Rugby is becoming more and more like football these days where success is generally bought rather than internally created. Just think Man City, Liverpool, Barca, Juve and Real. The only real time this trend was bucked was when Fergie won with the class of '92.

The CVC money this year has without doubt made us competitive this year, without it I think it's fair to say we wouldn't be occupying our current decent league position.


Whilst it's lovely to see young talent being developed, supporters of professional clubs in the very top leagues (as illustrated by our dwindling attendances) are more and more demanding of success. Thus a purchased team with the hope of immediate cohesion is in my opinion the only way to go at the highest professional level to guarantee success. A great team may also take years to gel, time which coaches are often not afforded or chairman prepared to give.

One could argue Exeter have done a great job in getting a team to gel without throwing money at it, however the fact that Saracens have trumped them on every occasion further supports the buying approach (sadly) wins every time.

I don't think that you should add liverpool as the type of football team that has bought talent in, Klopp has made very accurate acquisitions to the team along with the promotions within his youth teams they sold a player to Barca and bought in arguably three better team players with the amount they made from the sale and they are at the very fore front of the Moneyball system.
You seem to have overlooked such teams as PSG who have spent heavily but are not a dominant force in Europe or the likes of Ajax who continually developed players and profit from it,I would argue that you need to be clever in who you buy and how much you pay rather than if they cost more they will be good, just think about how bad Paul Pogba is for united, or Sanchez or even our own show pony was for us.
To point out that Sarries are the answer is almost laughable, they unlike irish will be playing in the championship next season and all that they have won has turned to dust in all but Nigel's eyes.

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
BaltiBoy 09 March, 2020 14:13
Quote:
LI Bohemian
Quote:
BaltiBoy
Not had a chance to watch video yet but initial thoughts are that you have to gamble on the buying approach in the hope your team gels.
Irish arguably more than any prem team have suffered by bringing through top talent only to see it siphoned off by the clubs with the money.

Rugby is becoming more and more like football these days where success is generally bought rather than internally created. Just think Man City, Liverpool, Barca, Juve and Real. The only real time this trend was bucked was when Fergie won with the class of '92.

The CVC money this year has without doubt made us competitive this year, without it I think it's fair to say we wouldn't be occupying our current decent league position.


Whilst it's lovely to see young talent being developed, supporters of professional clubs in the very top leagues (as illustrated by our dwindling attendances) are more and more demanding of success. Thus a purchased team with the hope of immediate cohesion is in my opinion the only way to go at the highest professional level to guarantee success. A great team may also take years to gel, time which coaches are often not afforded or chairman prepared to give.

One could argue Exeter have done a great job in getting a team to gel without throwing money at it, however the fact that Saracens have trumped them on every occasion further supports the buying approach (sadly) wins every time.

I don't think that you should add liverpool as the type of football team that has bought talent in, Klopp has made very accurate acquisitions to the team along with the promotions within his youth teams they sold a player to Barca and bought in arguably three better team players with the amount they made from the sale and they are at the very fore front of the Moneyball system.
You seem to have overlooked such teams as PSG who have spent heavily but are not a dominant force in Europe or the likes of Ajax who continually developed players and profit from it,I would argue that you need to be clever in who you buy and how much you pay rather than if they cost more they will be good, just think about how bad Paul Pogba is for united, or Sanchez or even our own show pony was for us.
To point out that Sarries are the answer is almost laughable, they unlike irish will be playing in the championship next season and all that they have won has turned to dust in all but Nigel's eyes.

Not suggesting for one moment the Sarries approach is the correct one, I'm merely just using it as an example that splashing the cash buys you the best team full of the best players. Irrespective of the financial irregularities Sarries 1st XV on their day were the best team in Europe because they bought their way to success rather than using a developmental approach.

With regard to the football analogy of course some teams buck the trend but other than Leicester City very few teams if any have won one of the major football leagues without splashing the cash. And whilst Liverpool have made astute signings spending 75 million on VVD is splashing the cash in my opinion. Very few clubs could afford to do that!



Cheers & Beers
BB

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
LI Bohemian 09 March, 2020 15:57
At 75 million VVD was a snip specially if compared to players that have cost more than him, he being the only player they could not replace in the squad and the reason they dominate this season, if he gets injured half way through the season they don't win the league, it's as simple as that.
They became could be, to world beaters, because of him and city have gone the other way without Vincent kompany.
Sarries had a good A, B and arguably C team that could bring in players when the A team was on international duty or injured, they didn't suffer if they had injuries they had a big quality squad, Lewington is 3rd choice in his position at Sarries, it is not an argument to say they splashed the cash and bought a team, they could hang on to the top players coming from the academy, they could import players as well, they won because they were not abiding by the rules, I would use Toulon as a better example of buying a team, but that does not buy a culture, it only lasts until the money runs out or the players move on, it is never sustainable.

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
Ruckingood 10 March, 2020 05:38
regardless of talent, I think Ben Darwin's focus on the person and personality over the status of the player is also very valid. You could buy an international superstar but if he cannot be part of a team or has the wrong personality and clashes with players and coaches alike then regardless of "who they are" it will never work and may hinder player development in the future - one rotten apple

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
SirBurger 10 March, 2020 09:13
Ben Darwin is also well-known for his analysis which shows that players in their first year of a contract usually don't perform as well as in their second and third years, which is potentially exciting for us.

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
Florida 10 March, 2020 09:32
What the points here miss is that Saracens were successful because they spent money, built a culture and developed their own. It was the combination of all three.

They spent less than the top French teams, but were more successful when they played them.

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
GHA 10 March, 2020 09:58
They didn't develop their own as much as people think, or as much as they like to suggest, though

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
LI Bohemian 10 March, 2020 10:30
I think the real problem is having enough time with individuals to build a culture, if the squad including coaching staff, academy staff are being changed the culture of the team and unity is disrupted, we are all sick of being told about a 3,4,5 year plan to find it was not right in the first place.
Sometimes you club being owned by a spoilt rich person like Bath or Toulon isnít the answer as they get involved with their play things.
I think Sarries had the answer they just bent the rules completely to get it, affording the time to develop players, identifying young talent, hold on to that talent, spend money on strengthening key positions, resulting in the stability to build a culture, that now means nothing.

Re: Buying talent Vs building a team?
SixNineOne 10 March, 2020 11:12
I think that is a very fair summation of Sarries, LIB.
Listening to the interview I also thought he was describing the Exeter approach to a tee. They have developed a strong culture since their time in the Championship and are very good both at developing their home grown talent and well as taking players who are not succeeding at other clubs and turning them into top performers. I get the impression that there is a strong family bond between the players, coaches and back room staff, exemplified by the fact that players tend to live near to, and socialise with one, another


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