Latest news:

Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
Discussion started by AlecW , 26 September, 2020 15:07
Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
AlecW 26 September, 2020 15:07
Justice done in the end.

By that I mean that Saracens were magnificent, defiant, disruptive, tackled everything and took their chances of points. Their scrum was magnificent, until it started to creak in the last 10. Koch, Itoje and Morris were magnificent. Barritt going off probably crucial. Racing were restricted to glimpses of their potential only, until the last 10 minutes or so. They also made far too many handling errors.

But...

Justice done because the first 70 minutes were just SO sterile, stop-start and (frankly) boring. What Saracens do may be mightily effective, but ye Gods, it fails utterly to stir the soul...! Leave aside the salary cap shenanigans for a moment: they are a desperately difficult side to love, unless you happen to support them! Respect, yes; admire, maybe; but love...?

IMNVHO. ... No.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
PV 26 September, 2020 16:40
Didnít have the squad depth. Simple as...

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
AlecW 26 September, 2020 17:10
Exeter have been superb against Stade Toulousain.

So - Racing 92 v Exeter Chiefs, venue TBD

Great game in prospect!

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
mackemII 26 September, 2020 17:27
Quote:
AlecW
Exeter have been superb against Stade Toulousain.
So - Racing 92 v Exeter Chiefs, venue TBD

Great game in prospect!

Ashton Gate Alec.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
franciscorrigan 26 September, 2020 17:52
Barritt departure injured turned the game. Such a turgid affair though. Half an eye on the rugby and one on the cricket and I would not normally do that. What a contrast the Exeter game was. Both eyes on that one. Final should be worth watching(Sm63)

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
AlecW 26 September, 2020 20:43
Pity no-one can be there, Ashton Gate is a great ground...!

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SixNineOne 27 September, 2020 09:08
Quote:
franciscorrigan
Barritt departure injured turned the game. Such a turgid affair though. Half an eye on the rugby and one on the cricket and I would not normally do that. What a contrast the Exeter game was. Both eyes on that one. Final should be worth watching(Sm63)
itís often the problem in a lot of sports when two very strong teams meet. The match fails to provide much excitement or fireworks and the cognoscenti tell me that you have to focus on the details of the mini-battles going on in the game to get any enjoyment. Itís rather like watching a spin bowler toiling away against a batsman whoís straight batting every ball. To the casual observer nothing seems to be happening but the detail of the contest between bowler and batsman can sometimes be fascinating. Having said that, I freely admit that I also found it hard work to enjoy the match at La Dťfence. The game at Sandy Park was just so much more interesting...

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
GHA 27 September, 2020 11:17
Quote:
SixNineOne
Quote:
franciscorrigan
Barritt departure injured turned the game. Such a turgid affair though. Half an eye on the rugby and one on the cricket and I would not normally do that. What a contrast the Exeter game was. Both eyes on that one. Final should be worth watching(Sm63)
itís often the problem in a lot of sports when two very strong teams meet. The match fails to provide much excitement or fireworks and the cognoscenti tell me that you have to focus on the details of the mini-battles going on in the game to get any enjoyment. Itís rather like watching a spin bowler toiling away against a batsman whoís straight batting every ball. To the casual observer nothing seems to be happening but the detail of the contest between bowler and batsman can sometimes be fascinating. Having said that, I freely admit that I also found it hard work to enjoy the match at La Dťfence. The game at Sandy Park was just so much more interesting...

You are giving far, far too much credit to Saracens, who should've been deducted a point for every box-kick once they passed a total of 50 box kicks

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SixNineOne 27 September, 2020 11:54
Sometimes the box kicks did provide an interesting contest, but Wigglesworth wasnít delivering them with his customary precision, so itís easy to understand how boredom might set in...

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
GHA 27 September, 2020 12:15
They might've provided a split second of interesting contest but they certainly didn't provide 80 minutes of interesting contest...

I wonder if they'll be a bit more expansive in the Championship

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
franciscorrigan 27 September, 2020 12:59
It will be very interesting to see what side the Salarymen put out next season. Their academy side would probably beat most Championship teams, but I bet every star they still have will play both games against Ealing.(Sm63)

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
tatthecraic3 27 September, 2020 13:24
Well. I'd agree. They lacked depth in their squad.

When barritt went down they couldn't move elliot daily in and bring on Liam Williams.

Or when Itoje slowed down they couldn't bring on Skelton.

And when Wray got tired they couldn't bring on Ben Earl

When Alex good was crocked they didn't have Farrell and had to use Vunipola...

Absolutely karma and comupance. Doubt the sarries team and or fans will see it in their contined delusion. But they finally may understand how they won so much...

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
Bill the chip 27 September, 2020 13:33
Exactly that tatthecraic!!!!!

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
franciscorrigan 27 September, 2020 13:52
A few key injuries and couple of bad results next season against Ealing, Pirates or Reds and they could be in serious trouble. Ealing look very strong again and it could be tight for promotion. I can't really see Salarymen not coming back up, but I wonder how much money Wray would be willing to put in and for how long if they if they don't. They are already in massive debt apparently and I wonder how many sponsors are still on board.(Sm63)

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SimonG19 27 September, 2020 13:57
Let's hope very very few.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SixNineOne 27 September, 2020 14:03
The steady improvement shown by Ealing and probably also the Pirates and the Reds is unlikely to cause Saracens serious concerns provided they maintain their focus and donít get complacent. It may, however, cause concern for whichever club gets relegated at the end of the 20/21 season (assuming relegation still exists), and this thought is probably niggling at the back of the minds of several of us...

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SteveS 27 September, 2020 14:12
Never been a Sarries hater, have always admired their upstart scrappiness over the years and of course London Irish-connected coaches have played the critical role in their success.

Still, am pleased it wonít be an all English final as an international affair will provide more spice and a sense of occasion.

That Sarries are in any danger of not being promoted back is a pretty far fetched view, to put it kindly. Much more serious is the danger we may not have a Championship given the financial cliff edge we are now facing. In that sad case it wouldnít surprise me if Sarries stayed a Prem club without going through the competitive waste of everyoneís time of posting cricket scores all season long



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/09/2020 14:14 by SteveS.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
franciscorrigan 27 September, 2020 16:04
Realistically there are few Championship sides with the wish or finances to be a Premiership club. I can see the Championship becoming at best a semi-pro league and the Prem being ring fenced. If that were to occur, there would be some legal challenges from at least Ealing and Pirates. It could be time to consider enlarging the Prem and cutting out the Prem Cup competition, so there aren't too many matches. Fourteen like the other leagues perhaps, or even fifteen clubs, to accomodate the Salarymen, Pirates and Ealing. Without the Cup, that would still be 28 games, as now. Without relegation, teams could play more academy youngsters and would need fewer expensive overseas imports. Financially a much better bet.(Sm63)

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SixNineOne 27 September, 2020 22:39
Quote:
franciscorrigan
Realistically there are few Championship sides with the wish or finances to be a Premiership club. I can see the Championship becoming at best a semi-pro league and the Prem being ring fenced. If that were to occur, there would be some legal challenges from at least Ealing and Pirates. It could be time to consider enlarging the Prem and cutting out the Prem Cup competition, so there aren't too many matches. Fourteen like the other leagues perhaps, or even fifteen clubs, to accomodate the Salarymen, Pirates and Ealing. Without the Cup, that would still be 28 games, as now. Without relegation, teams could play more academy youngsters and would need fewer expensive overseas imports. Financially a much better bet.(Sm63)
This is undoubtedly a very sensible and pragmatic proposition and from the Premiershipís perspective Iíd certainly welcome it. In a way, this post lockdown half of the season has felt like a trial run of a ring fenced league and has allowed a lot of younger players to see more first team action, which can only be a good thing. Personally I donít need the threat of relegation to get me on the edge of my seat. I find Iím just as excited by a win even when the match is a so-called dead rubber. My only concern is that whilst itís likely to be a good financial option for the Premiership, what impact will it have on the lower leagues? I suspect that the answer to that question depends heavily on the funding that is pumped into them and with the RFU being so strapped for cash, the outlook could be a bit bleak.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
franciscorrigan 27 September, 2020 23:39
At the moment it looks like any Championship side without a heavyweight backer will have to take on the Richmond model and be almost true amateurs again. There are already a lot of supposedly full time pros in the Championship earning a pittance for playing and in reality the money just isn't there. The RFU won't fund the Championship to any extent any more and I'm not sure how much Greene King stump up in sponsorship for the league. It would be good to see one of the terrestrial TV channels televise their matches on a regular basis, which might drum up a few more paying supporters over time. The RFU has been completely useless in aiding the growth of the pro game in England. Too many hangers-on with huge expense accounts and committees stuffed with ex players steeped in amateurism and with zero business acumen.
For me, ring-fencing is an unavoidable necessity in the current climate, but not something I would like to see permanently. I can't see the majority of Championship sides ever being able to compete at Prem level, but there's always the possibility of another "Exeter" coming along. Perhaps the answer would be something like the NFL expansion franchises in the USA and if a club, or clubs appear big enough, good enough and sufficiently funded we reorganise the Prem to allow them in. I'm not exactly sure how you would do that, but surely it could be done.(Sm63)

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
Blarney 28 September, 2020 06:14
I'm with SteveS on Saracens.

They broke thr rules, and have rightly been punished, but I would posit that claims they were only successful because of their cap breaches are jealous fantasy.

As any Bath fan will tell you, or as we have learned from recent experience, simply having a star-studded squad can get you nowhere. Saracens are superbly coached and have won what they have through team performance rather than individual brilliance. Let's not forget that most of their England stars came through their own academy.

I'd be willing to bet that they would have still won most if not all if what they had even if they hadn't broken the cap.

tatthecraic3's point about subs is shot down by the fact that they beat Leinster comfortably with the same squad.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
GHA 28 September, 2020 08:57
[quote ]They broke thr rules, and have rightly been punished

Pay a fine. Keep your trophies. Keep the vast majority of your squad. Have a season of R & R in the Championship. Write off this Premiership season, and by all means rest your players for league games and save them for Europe. See you in 21/22, and sorry for the inconvenience.

Quote:
As any Bath fan will tell you, or as we have learned from recent experience, simply having a star-studded squad can get you nowhere.

Saracens don't just have a star-studded squad. Their squad and squad depth is ridiculous, which is why few eyebrows were raised when the 'Saracens guilty of salary cap breach' headlines came out. Liam Williams and Elliott Daly and Alex Goode as their three full backs. Sounds feasible.

Quote:
most of their England stars came through their own academy

Farrell came with the big money signing of his Dad, and the Vunipolas were brought in from elsewhere. As we know, the more money you have the easier it is to hold on to your Academy stars. Most of our England and British Lions stars came through our academy, except most of them also left for more money elsewhere.

Quote:
I'd be willing to bet that they would have still won most if not all if what they had even if they hadn't broken the cap.

I've seen this written a lot. How on Earth can you work that one out? They cheated and had a huge squad of stars, if they had less stars they still would've won stuff? If it is that easy to win things why isn't everyone doing it? Why didn't Saracens do it, if they didn't need to break the cap? If it is that easy to qualify for the Heineken whilst under the cap why aren't Worcester doing it? Or Leicester? Or us?

Sorry to pick Blarney but I disagree quite a bit with that one...

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
tatthecraic2 28 September, 2020 11:55
They beat a Leinster side that hasn't lost all year in the least competitive league in the rugby world.

just by the sheer fact how Leinster got beaten thoroughly, Ulster were walked over and Ireland are not really competitive at international level at the moment.

as soon as Sarries came up against a heavy weight from a competitive league they got beat.

and actually it plays to my point. - their less depth in their squad meant they had to play two high level european games back to back with the same squad an no rotation... maybe a stretch too far for their team?

finally to whoever said Most of their eng / B&I lions guys came from their academy:-

M Vunipola - Leeds
Kruis - Bedford
B Vunipola - Wasps
Daly - Wasps
Barritt - Sharks
Lewington - London irish (ok so not B&I or int - but wanted to make the point)
Sean Maitland - Crusaders
Wigglesworth - Sale

in fact their only academy england internationals still with the squad are:-

Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Alex Goode
Owen Farrell

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
franciscorrigan 28 September, 2020 12:01
If we had had more cash we could have cheated too and kept all the stars who now grace other teams. Our academy is the equal of anyones, but how many of the Saracens academy signed for them, rather than Quins or us, because of the success that money bought. I wouldn't dispute the fact that the Salarymen have great coaches, but it's a damn sight easier if you trawl up all the best prospects and can afford any superstar you want to sign. I expect that even after offloading players and sending some off on loan, they are only just about under the cap now.
Saying they would have won trophies without cheating is pure conjecture and just as fanciful.(Sm63)

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
GHA 28 September, 2020 12:17
Owen Farrell came through the Academy because of the big-money signing of his Dad

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
SimonG19 28 September, 2020 14:29
Quote:
franciscorrigan
If we had had more cash we could have cheated too and kept all the stars who now grace other teams. Our academy is the equal of anyones, but how many of the Saracens academy signed for them, rather than Quins or us, because of the success that money bought. I wouldn't dispute the fact that the Salarymen have great coaches, but it's a damn sight easier if you trawl up all the best prospects and can afford any superstar you want to sign. I expect that even after offloading players and sending some off on loan, they are only just about under the cap now.
Saying they would have won trophies without cheating is pure conjecture and just as fanciful.(Sm63)

Absolutely right.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
Margin_Walker 28 September, 2020 14:45
Quote:
tatthecraic2
They beat a Leinster side that hasn't lost all year in the least competitive league in the rugby world.
just by the sheer fact how Leinster got beaten thoroughly, Ulster were walked over and Ireland are not really competitive at international level at the moment.

as soon as Sarries came up against a heavy weight from a competitive league they got beat.

and actually it plays to my point. - their less depth in their squad meant they had to play two high level european games back to back with the same squad an no rotation... maybe a stretch too far for their team?

finally to whoever said Most of their eng / B&I lions guys came from their academy:-

M Vunipola - Leeds
Kruis - Bedford
B Vunipola - Wasps
Daly - Wasps
Barritt - Sharks
Lewington - London irish (ok so not B&I or int - but wanted to make the point)
Sean Maitland - Crusaders
Wigglesworth - Sale

in fact their only academy england internationals still with the squad are:-

Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Alex Goode
Owen Farrell

I don't necessarily disagree with the general thrust. They wouldn't have built the depth of squad they did, without cheating and it's much easier to keep academy stars if you are playing fast and loose with things.

They also had a great academy catchment area, leading to Middlesex being redistributed to us a few years back.

That said, M Vunipola came from Bristol, Lewington is a Leicester product and it was would be churlish not to call Kruis a Sarries product given he joined them at 18 out of school as far as I'm aware, without anyone else really being interested. He definitely didn't come from Bedford.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
GHA 28 September, 2020 15:13
Quote:
it would be churlish not to call Kruis a Sarries product given he joined them at 18 out of school as far as I'm aware, without anyone else really being interested.

From Wikipedia:

In the Spring of 2007 Kruis and his Dorking RFC U17 teammates won the U17 National Cup... He continued his rapid ascent and enjoyed an exceptional season for the St John's, Leatherhead 1st XV in the Autumn/Winter 2007, being selected to captain Surrey U18s... He impressed enough to gain selection for London and South East U18s in the annual Divisional tournament at Broadstreet RFC. He started every game in the second row, captaining the team and scoring three tries in the final fixture against South West U18s.

Was there not much interest, M_W? Shame our hat wasn't in the ring!

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
Margin_Walker 28 September, 2020 15:25
He doesn't seem to have played U18s for any academy and got in through a trial. I doubt there was much of a queue for him.

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
GHA 28 September, 2020 16:31
thumbs down

Re: Racing 92 19 - 15 Saracens
Gryff 29 September, 2020 16:53
The George Kruis story is one of those sliding door ones. Quins passed on him and he got a trial at Sarries because someone knew someone. Sarries were going to pass but he badly cut his knee during a trail seasion so under the regs Sarries got him fit again which took 6 weeks. In that time he did mainly gym and started to bulk up so they signed him the following season


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?