Harlequins
Mike Brown
Discussion started by Harleys Evil Step Mum , 28 May, 2018 08:35
After yesterday’s performance I would wager that he will never start a game for England again! Possibly an impact sub? And sadly very little chance of being involved next year in Japan!..... always my favourite and gutted he didn’t go on the lions tour as back up to Hogg! Hopefully a few more seasons putting in a shift in the quarters!!!?
Totally agree was cruelly exposed on a couple of occasions and looked a bit lost on the wing. He looked so fed up when subbed. Top level sport can be so cruel and he was never picked when in his pomp. Just hope he can do a Matt Burke and regain his club form and attacking mojo for Quins under PG.
He was exposed as not being a winger. Which we've all said for years he isn't
I was there and he was awful. Fantastic day out though in the sun and some great tries
Might want to listen to what EJ said (rightly or wrongly) before terminating his England career.
This was an incredibly stupid selection that has harmed Mike’s confidence after a miserable season at Quins.Jones has possibly damaged Mike’s future irreparably but hopefully Gussie can give Mike some hope about his future
Quote:Cookie
Might want to listen to what EJ said (rightly or wrongly) before terminating his England career.
What did he say?
He said he was excellent, or similar, despite him doing virtually nothing all game.
Eddie could hardly say that Brown struggled as he'd just be opening himself up to more questions and criticisms for his bizarre decision to select him on the wing.
Eddie could hardly say that Brown struggled as he'd just be opening himself up to more questions and criticisms for his bizarre decision to select him on the wing.
Quote:Rocker
He was exposed as not being a winger. Which we've all said for years he isn't
Exactly
Really don't know what Eddie was trying to achieve by picking him on the wing. Daly, despite getting done by Ashton a few times, did look good at 15, so if anything that will be a threat to Brown (and rightly so).
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
Ashton has been superb all season in France. Could.....and should...still walk into the England side.
Quote:Cookie
Might want to listen to what EJ said (rightly or wrongly) before terminating his England career.
Nah, what's it got to do with him? This board know best.
Sometimes it’s difficult to see what coaches see in certain players....sadly Mike’s grit and attitude towards losing isn’t enough.
Love him to bits but not for England sadly.
Love him to bits but not for England sadly.
Quote:Kent Fan
Top level sport can be so cruel and he was never picked when in his pomp.
I just don’t buy this at all - when do you think his “pomp” was?
I’ve been a Quins regular for 10-11 years now and it wasn’t until 2011/2012 that I thought Brown really deserved to be in the national side. His lack of pace and passing were bigger issues in his first few years. I think people forget how much he improved in the middle section of his career (widely attributed to his work with Margot Wells).
Lancaster picked him regularly from 2012, and regularly at 15 from 2013. Maybe he should have been picked at 15 a bit sooner, but Foden was also really good then. It’s definitely not the case that Brown was past his best by the time England picked him.
I think his club pomp came well before his regular place in the England side, although probably his best rugby was in 2012 to 13 for England, bearing in mind the step up needed from club rugby.
I remember Brown as a younger man dominating the premiership stats for several years for all the things you expect to see from backs excelling. It was no surprise when I just checked his try scoring record to see that in his 7 seasons to winning the prem he scored 62 tries (1 in every 3 games) and in the 6 seasons since he has scored 23 tries (1 in 5).
I remember Brown as a younger man dominating the premiership stats for several years for all the things you expect to see from backs excelling. It was no surprise when I just checked his try scoring record to see that in his 7 seasons to winning the prem he scored 62 tries (1 in every 3 games) and in the 6 seasons since he has scored 23 tries (1 in 5).
He hasn't been the same - for England or Quins - since he had the long lay-off for concussion, but to write a bloke off for having a bad game out of position is a bit harsh. All a bit cobblers really.
He does not have the pace for int’l wing or even Quins wing, he does have the attributes of 15. If Daly and Brown had played in the opposite positions the two early scores may not have happened. Once the winger got round MB he had no chance.
Quote:The Dead Baron
He hasn't been the same - for England or Quins - since he had the long lay-off for concussion, but to write a bloke off for having a bad game out of position is a bit harsh. All a bit cobblers really.
He was probably England's best player at the 2015. Genuinely exceptional in the first two games. That was since the concussion.
Think time generally has started to catch up with him rather than any particular injury.
Yeah no good s a winger, is that’s because he’s a full back
Still moving on can’t we have a go at Gustard and his awful defence against the BaBaas
Oh and let’s not forget Robshaw who missed 6 tackles
Marley and Sinck what about them
As for Ashton, chose the euro over the pound, end of
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/05/2018 21:54 by SiBolton.
Still moving on can’t we have a go at Gustard and his awful defence against the BaBaas
Oh and let’s not forget Robshaw who missed 6 tackles
Marley and Sinck what about them
As for Ashton, chose the euro over the pound, end of
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/05/2018 21:54 by SiBolton.
Sunday would have been a perfect game to give Lewington a go, other Countries blood their youngsters!!
I've only seen highlights but it didn't look like the England players were putting much effort in. It looked more like a training game. The older players seemed tired and lethargic. It's a bad time to have another game at the end of the season with a tour starting in two weeks. Perhaps EJ was trying Daly at 15 to see how he went and wanted Mike on the pitch as he's vice captain. It's turned into an exhibition game now so you can't read too much into the result.
Quote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
Sunday would have been a perfect game to give Lewington a go, other Countries blood their youngsters!!
Think that is a bit unfair, Curry and Mercer were both playing. Earle, Earl, Redpath (but for injury) going to SA. Isiekwe been in the set up a while
But these games are PERFECT for giving young wingers a go........I'm no expert, but think Jordan Larmour, Jacob Stockdale, Reiko Iouane, Josh Adams.....sure there are loads more!! Are we saying THERE ARE NO young wingers in this country???????? (I've got a 17 year old who would have put in a better shift!!!!)
I suspect Jones wanted to give Daly a go at 15 but also wanted the ability to switch them back, if it wasn't working, without having to use a replacement.
You could still argue that was over-cautious, but I doubt it's that Jones genuinely thought that Brown on the left wing was the best option for England.
You could still argue that was over-cautious, but I doubt it's that Jones genuinely thought that Brown on the left wing was the best option for England.
Quote:Harleys Evil Step Mum
But these games are PERFECT for giving young wingers a go........I'm no expert, but think Jordan Larmour, Jacob Stockdale, Reiko Iouane, Josh Adams.....sure there are loads more!! Are we saying THERE ARE NO young wingers in this country???????? (I've got a 17 year old who would have put in a better shift!!!!)
There are young wingers but he already had a new centre partnership and was experimenting with Daly at 15. How many young/new players is too many?
Bear in mind that Larmour and Stockdale were playing with the likes of Kearney and Earles around them.
Don't forget that some of these young wingers are in the U20 World Cup starting tomorrow.
Quote:1908
Ashton has been superb all season in France. Could.....and should...still walk into the England side.
Walking would explain getting chased down by George Ford, at any rate.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
And also dont forget as well as the wingers in the U20, there are the ones that are injured (lewington being one according to the updated SA squad release)
I think what it proved was that we have one player who can play equally well at fullback or wing (Daly) and one who really can't play anywhere except fullback (Mike).
So what matters at this point for Mike's England career is whether EJ wants a second utility back, knowing that he has plenty of options at wing. If he's happy to go into the World Cup with a player who can only play at FB, that will be fine. If he prefers two players who can play in multiple positions, he might not be.
So what matters at this point for Mike's England career is whether EJ wants a second utility back, knowing that he has plenty of options at wing. If he's happy to go into the World Cup with a player who can only play at FB, that will be fine. If he prefers two players who can play in multiple positions, he might not be.
Quote:Jammy GitQuote:1908
Ashton has been superb all season in France. Could.....and should...still walk into the England side.
Walking would explain getting chased down by George Ford, at any rate.
To quote Ugo - at the expense of who?
Ashton is an energy sapper.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
Well clearly what do I know?.....he's very obviously one of the TWO best wingers in the whole country!!? GOOD LUCK MIKE!!
15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 18 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 34 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 10 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 58 caps), 11 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 69 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 74 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 49 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 25 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 10 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 19 caps), 5 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 2 caps), 6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 64 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 1 cap), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 34 caps).
Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 56 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps), 19 Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps, 0 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 14 caps), 21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 0 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 3 caps), 23 Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, 2 caps).
Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 56 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps), 19 Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps, 0 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 14 caps), 21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 0 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 3 caps), 23 Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, 2 caps).
Bizarre.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
He was so convincing against the Baas, he has picked him for a full test.... Hmmmm.
I assume he needs a proper fullback in the game if things go wrong...as they did against a scratch side.
I assume he needs a proper fullback in the game if things go wrong...as they did against a scratch side.
Quote:John Tee
He was so convincing against the Baas, he has picked him for a full test.... Hmmmm.
I assume he needs a proper fullback in the game if things go wrong...as they did against a scratch side.
As per other thread Jones says not - says game has changed and wings now better operating around breakdown - hence picked Brown
Well, after saying it was a bad move Brown is having a cracking game so far. England looking good. Backs combining really well
Brown is getting shown up for pace in defence regularly though, even if there’s no one mistake to point to.
Can't complain about the attacks....but both defences are lacking. Whoever can get the most ball will likely win as virtually every attack scores...
England need to get some control...
England need to get some control...
Daly is getting down up in defence too. Better to switch them
Brown had a great start and didn't play badly but was exposed in terms of defensive positioning and pace, which hurt us a lot. Daly made too many big errors and gifted SA a try on top.
Too many players not really doing much - Slade, Robshaw, Billy, Itoje (yes, he scored, but he was poor everywhere else), Sinckler, George (unlucky with the penalties IMO), etc.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
Too many players not really doing much - Slade, Robshaw, Billy, Itoje (yes, he scored, but he was poor everywhere else), Sinckler, George (unlucky with the penalties IMO), etc.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
Thought Brown was one of the few English players to come out with credit in that match, especially given he was playing out of position. The Saffa commentators were very complimentary.
Daly is a fantastic player but why is he at full back? Wing or 13. Inexperience showed and would have done so much better than Slade who hasn't been in-form.
Curry had a decent game but as above pretty much all the Sarries players were sub-par with the only decent one subbed after 30-odd minutes! Couldn't believe Robshaw remained on the pitch, should have been him getting the hook for Shields.
Daly is a fantastic player but why is he at full back? Wing or 13. Inexperience showed and would have done so much better than Slade who hasn't been in-form.
Curry had a decent game but as above pretty much all the Sarries players were sub-par with the only decent one subbed after 30-odd minutes! Couldn't believe Robshaw remained on the pitch, should have been him getting the hook for Shields.
Agree with comment above - Who made the most metres, who made the most tackles, who kicked the most - THAT WOULD BE - MIKE BROWN - 2ND IBM KEY INFLUENCER on IBM Try Tracker
Sadly I missed all but the last 10 minutes, thanks to a combination of British Airways and the Queen.
What I did see was a superb turnover by Mike that any forward would have been proud of.
Reading the paper yesterday the report was particularly scathing of Robshaw. Was he really so bad?
All in all, it sounds like it was a great game for the neutral spectators.
What I did see was a superb turnover by Mike that any forward would have been proud of.
Reading the paper yesterday the report was particularly scathing of Robshaw. Was he really so bad?
All in all, it sounds like it was a great game for the neutral spectators.
Brown was beaten for pace on the outside in the build up to I think three South Africa tries.
That's the fault of the selectors for putting him on the wing rather than Brown himself, but can't be ignored in assessing how he played.
That's the fault of the selectors for putting him on the wing rather than Brown himself, but can't be ignored in assessing how he played.
Quote:Quinky Kin
Sadly I missed all but the last 10 minutes, thanks to a combination of British Airways and the Queen.
What I did see was a superb turnover by Mike that any forward would have been proud of.
Reading the paper yesterday the report was particularly scathing of Robshaw. Was he really so bad?
All in all, it sounds like it was a great game for the neutral spectators.
A few people who are normally pro Robshaw have said he had a poor game and looked off the pace. I haven't watched so can't comment, but if true then I hope it is because he is knackered and will go good to go again after a proper rest, rather than because time is catching up with him.
Robshaw (and a few others) literally looked dead on their feet to me. I know it has been said that he never went on the lions tour so why would he be so tiered. I would say it is because he is a bit older than a few of those players and has played literally non stop for a while. Bloke needs a break
More likely reason for everyone looking tired is that they all trained in Durban and only flew up to Joburg on Thursday.
For info, the air in Joburg (roughly a mile above sea level) contains 17% less oxygen than Durbs.
This seems bizarre to me. Most teams train at altitude and then play at a lower altitude.
Training at sea-level and then having probably only one training session at altitude must be incredibly difficult. I really do hope that the team trains on the highveld this week.
For info, the air in Joburg (roughly a mile above sea level) contains 17% less oxygen than Durbs.
This seems bizarre to me. Most teams train at altitude and then play at a lower altitude.
Training at sea-level and then having probably only one training session at altitude must be incredibly difficult. I really do hope that the team trains on the highveld this week.
No, they're back in Durban. Utterly bizarre prep for two games at altitude.
Iirc high altitude training takes a few weeks to see benefits.
If you are at 1500-2000m you'll feel affects for a day or two and then you'll be able to breathe easier. Operating at that level without effects is probably going to take 4 weeks, so there is a distinct advantage to it.
Maybe Jones thought a day or two would be useless...
Ime, you always need more air simply because there is less oxygen...so being more breathless is the result.
You definitely gasp at 3000 mtrs if not acclimatised but lower levels you will more quickly be short of breathe...ie, gasping if engaged in strenuous activity.
I recall Jim Ryan blaming the Mexico Olympics for his ill health later in life.... Or certainly being contributory...?
If you are at 1500-2000m you'll feel affects for a day or two and then you'll be able to breathe easier. Operating at that level without effects is probably going to take 4 weeks, so there is a distinct advantage to it.
Maybe Jones thought a day or two would be useless...
Ime, you always need more air simply because there is less oxygen...so being more breathless is the result.
You definitely gasp at 3000 mtrs if not acclimatised but lower levels you will more quickly be short of breathe...ie, gasping if engaged in strenuous activity.
I recall Jim Ryan blaming the Mexico Olympics for his ill health later in life.... Or certainly being contributory...?
Jones has already said that the advice they received was that they'd need to have trained for 10 days at altitude for it to have had a worthwhile effect, which they weren't able to do, so they didn't bother essentially. I'm not sure if he said they needed to train for 10 days at altitude or just be there fore 10 days, but either way he said it wasn't something they were able to do and so the advice they got was that traini9ng there for a couple of days would have not real benefit to not training there at all.
They had a two week window after the Prem final to get the whole squad to somewhere near Joburg and have at least 10 days prep at altitude, but chose not to. Presumably Durban seen as a better location, which from a pleasure point of view it obviously is, but surely the former would have been the correct option from a performance perspective? It's not like there are no high-performance facilities there.
Well yes, you'd have thought that performance might have been given a higher priority to having a nice time in umhlanga (which is very nice). There's no shortage of places to train at a similair altitude to Joburg.
Quote:Neale Harvey
They had a two week window after the Prem final to get the whole squad to somewhere near Joburg and have at least 10 days prep at altitude, but chose not to. Presumably Durban seen as a better location, which from a pleasure point of view it obviously is, but surely the former would have been the correct option from a performance perspective? It's not like there are no high-performance facilities there.
Maybe they felt some of the players needed some time off after the end of the season before flying out? Or have they been out there the full 10 days anyway? Genuine question
There is another aspect of altitude (besides fitness). Daly kicked a long range penalty - and also hoofed a ball downfield that went over the dead ball line. Some more training at altitude would likely have helped him avoid the latter.
There is a difference between the body adjusting to altitude & adjusting the body to performing at altitude. How do visiting Super Rugby teams plan their adjustments when coming from sea level to the high velde? What about visiting NFL teams to Denver which is roughly the same altitude as Ellis Park I think? Both of these leagues have a weekly turnaround so lengthy preparation at altitude is impossible. Think I read somewhere that they do a quick in & out to limit the effects of altitude. So England might not be doing it wrong. Its easier to sleep & rest at sea level for instance. Maybe they're trying something different?
England player ratings: Mike Brown can hold his head high after defeat by South Africa in Bloemfontein. Are some feeling a bit stupid now with above comments in May onwards? - They should......
Oh good, player ratings.
No, I don't think anyone who's been critical of Mike Brown's errors should feel stupid. I thought that was his best game for England for some time, but he did drop way too much ball.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
No, I don't think anyone who's been critical of Mike Brown's errors should feel stupid. I thought that was his best game for England for some time, but he did drop way too much ball.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
And one of them he even had to work for.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
Two games , Two Tries.
Results based business innit.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
Results based business innit.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
If he didn't have to work for the other try, he was doing something right already! 
Quote:Scaramouche
Two games , Two Tries.
Results based business innit.
True.
Two games, several tries conceded down his wing and getting gassed on the outside by multiple players, including Willie Le Roux for a try, and dropped a lot of ball. Oh, and we lost both games.
Brown was very good in attack - 80% of the old Brown. He was surprisingly poor under the high ball, although I'm not sure that should be a surprise these days. He was, unfortunately, exposed in defence, particularly in the first Test. But that's because he's not a winger.
Given his limitations I think he's had an excellent tour but it doesn't serve anyone to just ignore the negatives.
O Fortuna, velut luna statu variabilis,
semper crescis aut decrescis
Sarries fan in peace!!
I've been known to say that I feel A Goode is better at FB. However I genuinely feel that Mike Brown has been excellent on this tour. Played out of position etc etc but has given his all (as he always does - would like to meet the Numpty last week who suggested otherwise!!!)
Top bloke. A lot of us, not least me, could learn from his application. I hope he reads this and accepts my apology for ever doubting him.
I've been known to say that I feel A Goode is better at FB. However I genuinely feel that Mike Brown has been excellent on this tour. Played out of position etc etc but has given his all (as he always does - would like to meet the Numpty last week who suggested otherwise!!!)
Top bloke. A lot of us, not least me, could learn from his application. I hope he reads this and accepts my apology for ever doubting him.
Thought the quins boys did well. Marler held up the scrum, Sinckler carried well and took the game to the Boks in the first half and Brown was steady... Which is what you have cone to expect from a fb.
Robshaw's comeback was very nearly MOTM
Robshaw's comeback was very nearly MOTM
Agreed, all the Quins boys stood out. Robshaw really benefited from his kick up the backside and week off.
I don't think Robshaw needed a kick up the backside, he needed a rest. Players like Robshaw, Mako, Itoje do not become bad players overnight. off form and in need of a rest. I still think EJ messed up taking them all on tour. I could have handled a 3-0 defeat if we had used a few squad/fringe players.
Before the tour started, I would have been happy to see
Marler
George
Williams
Launchbury (c)
Attwood
Ewers
Armand
Simmonds
Robson
Cipriani
May
Lozowski
Daly
Solomona
Woodward
Genge
LCD
Sink
Isiekwe
Shields
Spencer/Care
Tuilagi (Think he is fit)
Earle
I would also have taken
Curry
Wilson
Singleton
Hill
Slade
Woodburn
I think that side would have given a good account of themselves. A few fringe players/youngsters get a chance to show what they can do. First teamers get a decent break.
Before the tour started, I would have been happy to see
Marler
George
Williams
Launchbury (c)
Attwood
Ewers
Armand
Simmonds
Robson
Cipriani
May
Lozowski
Daly
Solomona
Woodward
Genge
LCD
Sink
Isiekwe
Shields
Spencer/Care
Tuilagi (Think he is fit)
Earle
I would also have taken
Curry
Wilson
Singleton
Hill
Slade
Woodburn
I think that side would have given a good account of themselves. A few fringe players/youngsters get a chance to show what they can do. First teamers get a decent break.
[quote Dave Berko]Sarries fan in peace!!
I've been known to say that I feel A Goode is better at FB. However I genuinely feel that Mike Brown has been excellent on this tour. Played out of position etc etc but has given his all (as he always does - would like to meet the Numpty last week who suggested otherwise!!!)
Top bloke. A lot of us, not least me, could learn from his application. I hope he reads this and accepts my apology for ever doubting him.[/quote
Thank you, and well said. 😃 ]
I've been known to say that I feel A Goode is better at FB. However I genuinely feel that Mike Brown has been excellent on this tour. Played out of position etc etc but has given his all (as he always does - would like to meet the Numpty last week who suggested otherwise!!!)
Top bloke. A lot of us, not least me, could learn from his application. I hope he reads this and accepts my apology for ever doubting him.[/quote
Thank you, and well said. 😃 ]
Quote:Jammy GitQuote:Scaramouche
Two games , Two Tries.
Results based business innit.
True.
Two games, several tries conceded down his wing and getting gassed on the outside by multiple players, including Willie Le Roux for a try, and dropped a lot of ball. Oh, and we lost both games.
Brown was very good in attack - 80% of the old Brown. He was surprisingly poor under the high ball, although I'm not sure that should be a surprise these days. He was, unfortunately, exposed in defence, particularly in the first Test. But that's because he's not a winger.
Given his limitations I think he's had an excellent tour but it doesn't serve anyone to just ignore the negatives.
You know me J Git, accentuate the positive. He was helping EJ out too.
If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.
TBF think he has played superbly, his lack of pace has been a problem once or twice but defensively he has been pretty good!......Think Daly is our 15 from now on, May nailed on for one wing, so who will be on the other wing in Nov??
That’s a really good squad HonkyTonk and would have given a good account of itself.
I think that Jones is in that place where if he did and they excelled, he’d have to rethink his plans and that could throw everything out of synch.
SCW said the same about the AIs in 2002 where he could have rested players but the World Cup strategy was formed around the same 22 players being available and if those coming in were playing better, too many things would have come into question. You can have two or three but you don’t want to lose your cohesion.
I think that Jones is in that place where if he did and they excelled, he’d have to rethink his plans and that could throw everything out of synch.
SCW said the same about the AIs in 2002 where he could have rested players but the World Cup strategy was formed around the same 22 players being available and if those coming in were playing better, too many things would have come into question. You can have two or three but you don’t want to lose your cohesion.
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Many thanks, DOK
Many thanks, DOK
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