Harlequins

England team to face South Africa:
Elliot Daly; Jonny May, Henry Slade, Owen Farrell, Mike Brown, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Nick Isiekwe, Chris Robshaw, Tom Curry, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Harry Williams, Brad Shields, Nathan Hughes, Ben Spencer, Piers Francis, Denny Solomona

FFS Brown on the wing for a proper test match!!!! Jones has officially lost it. Start him at FB or leave him out, he’ll get roasted out there.

Brown on the wing again - nooooooooooooo !!

I'm really starting to question Eddie's logic, Brown is not a Winger, never has
been, which is why he's pretty much the best Fullback in the premiership.

Such a stupid selection. If he feels Daly should start ahead of Brown at 15 then fine, drop him to the bench or altogether.

Would have prepared Lozowski at 13. I like the starting pack. No second row cover on the bench? Or can shields cover?

Quote:

QuinMR5
I'm really starting to question Eddie's logic, Brown is not a Winger, never has
been, which is why he's pretty much the best Fullback in the premiership.

I think Veanu, Goode, Le-Roux and Woodward might have something to say about that...

That being said, id have Brown at 15 for the first test. His defence and general safety under the high ball does it for me. Right now, there’s not really a better alternative.

Daly provides a lot of the attacking link play from Wing that you’d otherwise get from a more all-round Fullbsck.

I’d personally like to see Woodward given a shot. But big starting the first test.

Ford at 10, still, is a shame too. Cips very much deserves a shot. But then I would say that.

Maybe its a deliberately confusing tactic from EJ, and Daly & Brown will actually switch around to playing Wing/FB during the game? I can't think of any other logical explanation.

He may know more about it than us of course.

I must admit that up to now, when faced with odd selections form EJ, I've accepted he knows a lot more about it than I do, but I really struggle with selections like this.

as has been said above, Mike Brown is a full back, either play him there, or don't, not this nonsense.

Obviously Billy V is not fit, otherwise he wouldn't need Sheilds & Hughes on the bench, so don't play him. And I doubt Hughes is fit either!

In the absence of Danny care, is Ben Spencer really the second best 9 available????
He's not bad, but can't get a start for Sarries & Robson is much better IMO.

I don't understand how Ford can get so many chances to play himself back into form, he's not playing well, do don't pick him!

I am worried about player welfare, some of the guys have played a lot of rugby this year whilst others seems to have been rushed back from injury, no one really needs this test series?

Agree with all that has been said. Brown is no winger. I think he could also do with a rest as he did not have a great form at the end of the season.

Why not give Cips a start !!!!! Ford is not a to[p quality 10. Let us see what Cips can do at this stage of his career.

Brown is currently the best English qualified fb. Plenty have a pop at him but no one can displace him.
I think playing Daly there gives him game time with the insurance you can move Brown back there.
No use wasting a bench pick.imo.
But yes, he is no winger... So the opposing Bok will fancy a crack at him.

Spencer above Robson is odd, tbh. Can't get picked for Saracens so even though he had promise a few seasons back, I can't see him there atm. And especially not in front of Robson.

I think this is a conservative first pick for the first Test.
Ford continues to be a very lucky boy getting picked Imo.

Forwards make sense...backs..? Not much.
Even on a quins board I'd say Robson deserves a chance after his stellar form for Wasps.

I dont get the argument that Jones has Brown there in case Daly has a mare. What happens when Mike has a mare on the wing!!! All the players in England and we pick a FB on the wing. Its ridiculous and puts more pressure on Brown and must be a kick in the teeth for the wingers that are available.

Or just maybe the Quins players have been re-energised in the England set up and Eddie is getting the best out of them? He isn't picking a side to loose a test match.

Having said that I think Ford is a lucky boy. Looks like there is going to be a lot of kicking. Surprised Simmonds isn't at least on the bench. Still think England can sneak a win.

Didn't really work against the Baa Baas. Didn't work when SL tried it.

Still think we will win though

Spencer above Robson is odd, tbh. Can't get picked for Saracens so even though he had promise a few seasons back, I can't see him there atm. And especially not in front of Robson.

24 appearances (18 for Wiggy) 984 mins (908 for Wiggy) 11 trys.

Cant get picked?

When you read all the stuff the England players are monitored on, I can't believe Eddie Jones doesn't know how fit, how fast or how good Mike Brown is in attack and defense on the wing. So he must know something we don't if he's putting him there.

Perhaps Eddie is subconsciously easing him out of the team gradually.

Quote:

Quinten Poulsen
Perhaps Eddie is subconsciously easing him out of the team gradually.

That's the only explanation that makes the tiniest bit of sense. He doesn't want him in the team so he's getting an excuse ready. Can't be right of course.

Not getting the ford hate at all...

4 losses in a row would begin to look like we have a problem.

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If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

When Jones drops people they are dropped - so no way the easing Brown out thing can be right.

Daly looked not bad at 15 against BaBaas, and he will need his boot at altitude.

Brown may not actually be out on the wing for a lot of the game, can see how his aggression on defence coming inside may be the tactic - hence why he tried it against BaBaas (except it didn’t appear to work but Boks aren’t going to play fast and loose and risk losing ball)

I’m not sure about the Ford hate either.

As for 9 - lord knows - he must see something and he gets to see camp and we don’t.

its a decent team, not maybe the strongest team that could be put out, but competitive.

Brown on the wing i think is a risk but i can understand the logic. Eddie Jones generally likes one out and out speedster and the other wing to be able to put in the hard graft. Can tackle hard, can pop up supporting the forwards like Jack Nowell does, which i think brown can do better than solomona for arguments sake.
Couple that with Daly being inexperienced at full back at international level then having brown all ready on the pitch it makes a bit of sense.
I also think having Daly at full back with the altitude if the ball does get kicked to him, SA will definitely be running backwards after he boots it back



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2018 11:12 by The Blindside.

Quote:

RodneyRegis

Not getting the ford hate at all...

Nope me neither. Seems so obvious to me that he's completely central to everything good England do with the ball, that it makes me wonder (i) why people can't see it or (ii) whether I've completely lost it and am imagining things that aren't there.

The Ford one is a struggle for me as well. I think the reason that Ford looks average is that they want everything to go through Farrell so it limits Ford's game. You need Farrell on th pitch for his kicking (accepting he had a poor 6 nations in this regard) but he's not a 10 and he's not a 12 so it limits the England midfield.

Cipriani wouldn't look any better at 10 with those restrictions.

Quote:

Banstead Quin
The Ford one is a struggle for me as well. I think the reason that Ford looks average is that they want everything to go through Farrell so it limits Ford's game. You need Farrell on th pitch for his kicking (accepting he had a poor 6 nations in this regard) but he's not a 10 and he's not a 12 so it limits the England midfield.
Cipriani wouldn't look any better at 10 with those restrictions.

Unfortunately, I doesn’t look like we’ll ever get to find out if Cips would look better or not. For my money, he would:

- He’s in way better form than a Ford, has been for the last 2 seasons
- He’ll take the ball flatter and has shown better decision making than Ford, buying time for the other backs to find space and cause issues
- He tends to vary his passing and kicking more than Ford, creating unpredictability for opposite defences
- Arguably, with experience and age on side, he’s a better leader than Ford at this stage and capable of organising and demanding what he wants from the other backs in attack
- Despite his reputation of old, he hardly needs babysitting in defence either (not that Ford neccessary does either)

Better form at club level but Ford has been playing for two disrupted and occasionally dysfunctional sides in that time.

I don't believe Cipriani takes it flatter, makes better decisions, is a better leader or varies his kicking and passing more, but there's little point debating that if we just see it differently. For me, Ford is one of the first names on the England team sheet, and the problems with our attack in the Six Nations had very little to do with him.

What would be really good would be Care 21 Cips 22 coming on at 60 mins and ripping teams to shreds. Not enough time for either to soil themselves. You need Farrell off the pitch at that point though.

Young Ford Farrell
Care Cipriani ???

Hmmmm. Ford plays 10 so everything in attack is to do with him. I'd say our attack has been sporadic over two years and I don't recall a great game out of him.
So, if you have been in that position for that time and not hit top form, which he hasn't, I think that firmly sits at his door.
Neither of his club sides got going in that time either.
I don't think you can play a pivotal position and not be pivotal.
Cipriani got both Sale and Wasps going and he plays behind a pack that does not dominate.

Where does the attack break down? Clue - It ain't Ford.

Having no ball carriers in the forwards to tie defenders in, getting caned at the breakdown, having poor service from the 9 and a lateral centre partnership outside meant Ford didn't really have a chance in the Six Nations.

I think it's plain false that he hasn't had a great game for England or that our attack has generally been underwhelming during the Jones reign.

Jones says why Brown on wing:


Picking Mike Brown on the left wing was not a conspicuous success against the Barbarians last month but Jones believes the game is changing and wants the Harlequin to spend more time buzzing around the breakdown.

“I think there’s a real opportunity in rugby, the way it is played at the moment, to have an industrious strong runner around the ruck. If you look at Brownie’s best attributes they are in and around that area, not in open play. He’s a tough no-nonsense player and I think he can become a really valuable winger for us.

“To me you have a left fullback, a central fullback and a right fullback and they interchange all the time anyway. I don’t see that as a massive issue at all.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2018 06:25 by blucherquin.

Jones is just making it up now

On Spencer - read he’s a box kicking specialist.

I think given other picks we can safely assume England plan therefore is aerial bombardment at altitude and Daly’s ability to score 3 points from his own half.

Hit Boks by constantly turning them, win a breakdown penalty - creep up the scoreboard until you get a genuine chance in their 22.

Live stream anyone?

The theory beind it is that Brown plays like a workhorse offering himself up around the ruck.

Quote:

ArchQuin
Live stream anyone?

This seems to work

Quote:

blucherquin
On Spencer - read he’s a box kicking specialist.
I think given other picks we can safely assume England plan therefore is aerial bombardment at altitude and Daly’s ability to score 3 points from his own half.

Hit Boks by constantly turning them, win a breakdown penalty - creep up the scoreboard until you get a genuine chance in their 22.

Daly kicks from own half and brown scores

#justsaying

Great for entertainment but a coaches nightmare.
I think Boks defence looks even worse than ours...so if we can get the ball off them and keep it....they have to handle that which I don't think they look like doing..
But, let the Boks run the ball and we will be swept away.

Sarries players really letting England down here stupid penalties given away by George, Itoje and Vunipolas, then yellow card for Mako. Farrell completely anonymous. Nick isekwe taken of in the first half for Shields.

Edit: decent try by Itoje with the long reach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2018 17:25 by Hellequin.

Quote:

Scaramouche
4 losses in a row would begin to look like we have a problem.

Looking like we've got a problem then...

Game management again. Scored some cracking tries but seemed to be very indisciplined both in terms of defence and general discipline. Defence not good.

No control of the ball....Boks on the front foot were terrific. Any team that could make them defend would have a field day taking points off them defending like that...but England can't control their own ball.

Few points. Faf de Klerk showed that we don't have a scrum half. Immense performance, right on the edge, got away with a couple but a constant threat & he's played well all season for Sale. Vermeulen apparently has no club at the moment. SA played the last 60 mins really well & blew us away. Was it worth bringing on Shields? Brown still should be 15, Daly should be in the centres, it just doesn't look right. Didn't think Vunipola warranted yellow. Thought Slade did OK. Did we think we'd won it after 20 mins? Over to you Eddie!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2018 17:54 by QuinAlan.

That was poor. To be so far ahead, cruising then to let it slip. Took our foot off the gas, momentum shifted and we could not get it back. Sloppy mistakes (Young's kick, Dalys fumble) led to tries. Game should have been over by HT. Only crumb of comfort, if we can get some ball we will have a field day against that defence. To have so little territory and possession yet still score that many is a plus. Should be a lesson learned. From that start the AB would have had a cricket score, not switch off.

Yeah didn’t I speak too soon

The scoreline flattered England. Playing Brown at wing is a no-no. Itoje and Farrell yet again are not substituted (IIRC neither were in the 5 games during the 6 Nations even though they were both consistently meh) yet others are hooked who were just as poor as them. And Farrell as captain? He was non-existent as skipper against France and was again today, having no idea how to speak to the ref so just not bothering at all. He missed most tackles in the 6 Nations and his kicking stats for England are average but hey, he's got an ice-cool temperament, or something.

We have leaked 14 tries in last 2 games.Thats pretty poor Mr G!What is the real reason he’s coming to us?We’ll never know but he better be better than NE!

I don't think the score flattered us. We looked like scoring points every time we attacked. That game was over after 20 mins but the problem was England believed that.

Momentum is so important and we gifted it away, SA didn't even have to take it. I don't know what Jones will say but that Sheilds substitution had nothing to do with tactics. It was all about getting some experience and leadership on the pitch. I thought England were devoid of any real leadership today, someone to get the players in and lay down the law.

Now is the time for Robson and Cipriani. Ford started well but as his norm faded away and started hiding when the going got tough.

Simmonds has to be in the back row. Hill and Launcbury in the engine room. Williams and LCD in front row. We have to get more dynamism in the pack.Get some ball and keep it for longer periods and I think England will win the second test.

Let's not forget that it was a great game of rugby and both sides should take a bow

Lost 5 in a row.14 tries against Last 2 games.Throw away 24-3 lead.15 months to rwc.We are going backwards..Crucial we win the next 2 to stop
the rot otherwise we’ll be even more in decline

Not sure Ford was hiding 1908, he put his body on the line a few times trying to stop the big forwards and difficult to be mercurial when the other defenders are missing tackles.

Need to do some analysis of how many times Ford passes to someone other than Farrell and what the outcome of those passes are compared to when he gets it elsewhere.

Agree that the Sarries players looked tired and didn’t give what they normally do in a white shirt. They needed an extra week off I think.

Get some control back in and hopefully Launchbury(who should be the captain) and eradicate the silly errors and we should be fine for the next two matches.

We were brilliant in attack for 20 mins and they were brilliant in attack for 50 mins and we still only lost by 3. Would have been 1 if Farrell hadn’t have missed a sitter.

Quote:

1908
Now is the time for Robson and Cipriani. Ford started well but as his norm faded away and started hiding when the going got tough.
Simmonds has to be in the back row. Hill and Launcbury in the engine room. Williams and LCD in front row. We have to get more dynamism in the pack.Get some ball and keep it for longer periods and I think England will win the second test.

Let's not forget that it was a great game of rugby and both sides should take a bow

I think that LCD is crocked. England have called up a replacement

That is a blow because I like his dynamism around the park. Have to say though, nobody hits numbers like Hartley for lines outs...and LCD missed a crucial one. It is these little issues that all add up.

Yep, Hartley (like Robshaw) gets lots of grief from non Saints fans but when he has been missing the replacement (George) has not looked up to it so far for me. Too early to write George off and he needs game time but so far has looked a bit lacking

In an area of compromise, do you want Hartley for the lines and maybe scrums and nothing else.... Or do want a pita around the field which LCD usually is but a bodge throwing..? Didnt think George had one of best games but he wasn't alone there in the forwards.

With humous?

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If at first you don't succeed, Try, Try and Try again.

For me personally, I like my players to do their main job first. Hooker that can hook and throw. Its great having a hooker that can storm around the pitch but if they are chasing lost ball it loses the effect. We saw on saturday how important possesion/territory is. If England had more ball they would have won, I have no doubt as every time we attacked we looked like scoring.